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Amazon Shop: ½ Pint Jars, Autoclave, Pressure Cooker

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OfflineOtto
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Using hot oil to steralize jars
    #2314751 - 02/08/04 04:36 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Let me preface this by saying that a for a serious fungus cultivator a pressure cooker is the way to go. It's well worth the investment. This thought just crossed my mind so I thought I'd throw it out there.

I was thinking though that to achieve stearilization temperatures one could simply use oil with a smoke point low enough to be heated to the same temp inside pressure cookers at 15psi (The number slipped my mind). Newbs would be able to use grain simply by buying a gallon of canola or peanut oil.

Here's a list of oils and their smoke points:
http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/CollectedInfo/OilSmokePoints.htm

Any reason why this wouldn't work?

Otto


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Otto]
    #2314842 - 02/08/04 05:22 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

>Any reason why this wouldn't work?
Yes.

Liquid water can?t get hotter than 100?C at atmospheric pressure, regardless of temperature you apply.
As long there is liquid water in your substrate(and hopefully there is) the temperature can only reach the boiling temperature.
At a pressure of 15 PSI (pound per square inch) water boils at a higher temperature (250?F, 121?C) than at ambient pressure.(212?F, 100?C). This high temperature kills the contaminants if applied for a sufficient long time span.


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OfflineOtto
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Anno]
    #2314986 - 02/08/04 06:24 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for the reply Anno

A couple of comments:
1. To grasp what you were saying I imagined myself a microbe in a swimming pool. Lining the swimming pool are heaters that are set to 500C, but the pool water never gets above 100C (at 1atm), it just boils and I am fine (I die at 121C) until the water runs out (which doesn't happen in a sealed jar).

2. The enviroment of a microbe inside a jar is more complex then this analogy. It is likely surrounded by proteins and carbohydrates that can get hotter then 100C. But I guess somehow the microbes surround themselves with water to avoid the heat from the carbohydrates, proteins and any other molecules above 100C.

Is there a better explanation?

Otto


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Anno]
    #2315294 - 02/08/04 08:57 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

/me wonders how many PSI an average glass coke/beer bottle can handle.

If you sealed a glass bottle full of substrate and heated it to 250'F that would theoretically work, but also it might blow up your face.


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2315511 - 02/08/04 09:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

depends if the pressure can equalize inside and outside of the container. Also, if the glass is bubble free it should be able to withstand quite a bit of pressure.


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #2315570 - 02/08/04 10:00 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not talking about equalizes pressure, I'm talking about atmospheric pressure outside the bottle, and atmospheric pressure + 15 lbs inside the bottle.


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2315904 - 02/08/04 11:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

the lid would pop off first :smile:

LoL, I really don't know what you are trying to get at, planning on putting some closed containers in the oven or microwave? You could probably test it by finding how much pressure an unopened, shaken, carbonated drink has and then adjust the temperature to increase it. Or perhaps one involving dry ice.

I'm not sure if this is true or not...
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/SeemaMeraj.shtml

They are talking about pressures of between 30 and 60 psi in a can of Soda in normal  conditions. I imagine a glass bottle should be able to hold the same.


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #2315945 - 02/08/04 11:32 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not planning on trying it, but I think it would work.

Put grains in a beer bottle and then heat it to 250'F, i if the lid stayed on and the bottle didn't explode it would probably successfully sterilize.

Of course, you would have to break the bottle to get the spawn/substrate out.


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2315996 - 02/08/04 11:42 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Of course, if you tried this in a bath of hot oil, and it exploded, the result would probably be a severely scalded or dead you, and a burnt down house.


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2316037 - 02/08/04 11:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Not to mention it would be a real pain in the arse to get in there in the first place, very messy. didn't we have a similar convo before.. yes, I believe we did.


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #2316185 - 02/09/04 12:27 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've always wondered, if you steamed your jars with the lids seal down, and very tightly closed.. wouldnt that create pressure inside the jars? They're made to handle being sealed for canning, so why not for substrate prep? :P


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Jared]
    #2316204 - 02/09/04 12:35 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

because of what anno already said.

"Liquid water can?t get hotter than 100?C at atmospheric pressure, regardless of temperature you apply."

This is why in order to can, you need a PC.


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #2316397 - 02/09/04 01:43 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

He is steaming the jars while the jars are sealed. Steam is not liquid and a sealed jar, when heated, will have a higher internal pressure.

Joshua


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Jared]
    #2316768 - 02/09/04 05:30 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

>I've always wondered, if you steamed your jars with the lids seal down, and
>very tightly closed.. wouldn't that create pressure inside the jars?

Steam them as steaming at the atmospheric pressure?
Hardly. The pressure that would get created is from the air that you have trapped in the jar expanding, and the fluid in the jar expanding(for the temperature rise from the room temperature to 100?C.)
This is hardly a noteworthy pressure rise.

>They're made
>to handle being sealed for canning, so why not for substrate prep? :P

OK, let's assume you are canning sealed jars in a pressure cooker.
Again you will have the same pressure rise as above due to expanding air and liquid and ALSO the pressure rise through water evaporating.
BUT: you are doing this in a canner, so you have the same pressure also on the outside of the jar , leaving the jar itself in an equilibrium, without any resulting net pressure on the jar.

NOW if you try to place the same jar in a hot environment WITHOUT a rise of pressure, the pressure in the jar will rise, indeed, it will act as a pressure cooker, until(possibly) BOOOOM, glas shrapnels and hot oil everywhere.

I am not enough of an experimenter to want to test this.


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Jared]
    #2316990 - 02/09/04 09:33 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

there is a reason PCs are made of cast aluminum and have heavy duty seals and are not made of glass.


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Joshua]
    #2319009 - 02/09/04 08:29 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Besides that you really can't get the temp inside the jar to be hotter than the outside. Most of the heat has to go through H2O, which will only rise to 100 C at atm press before turning into steam and rising away from the heat sorce. There will be a small quantity of heat that will go directly from the heat source -> pot -> jar. But glass isn't the best heat conductor.

You could do this sealed jar with oil, yes, but as anno said you may end up with a mess, or even injury. It is my personal belief that the glass itself could resist 15psi, the way jars are shaped they are able to with stand a great amount of uniform pressure, it is pressure points, such as dropping or stress fractures that glass has trouble with. I do have my doubts about the lid and the repeated pressure change.


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #2319311 - 02/09/04 09:36 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I used to steam my PF jars. I used to have pretty good success with the proceedure as well.

I think this method would be considered high-level disinfection.

Hot oil scares me, I think I'd steer clear of any methods employing its use...especially under pressure.

Joshua


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: Joshua]
    #2319394 - 02/09/04 09:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Steaming is in now way "high-level" disinfection. PC is not even really high level. Autoclave.. that's more like it. But PF jars don't need "high-level."

Why does it scare you?


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #2320425 - 02/10/04 03:59 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

What's the difference between autoclaving and PC'ing, except the fact that the autoclav has a pressure gauge ?


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Re: Using hot oil to steralize jars [Re: ragadinks]
    #2320446 - 02/10/04 04:12 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Most autoclaves work at a higher pressure, thus they reach a higer temperature.


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Amazon Shop: ½ Pint Jars, Autoclave, Pressure Cooker

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