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Mr.PhilCybin
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Help me figure out why my pans won't go
#23137795 - 04/20/16 04:14 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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So, this is my second tub of pans that have contamed out on me, and I'm not sure where I'm going wrong.
On 4/9 4 quarts of Pan Cyan Maui spawn (rye) were spawned to a mix of -Horse poo -straw -coir -gypsum -hydrated lime
It was mostly a 50/50 hp to straw mix, with a little coir to stretch it cause I was low on the poo. probably 10% coir or less overall.
it colonized super fast, and was cased about a week ago with a 50/50 peat/verm mix, with some hydrated lime in that as well.
both the sub and casing were pasteurized the same way I do my cube monos, which go off with no issues.
at the moment I'm just packing quart jars full of sub, and putting them in a hot water bath in my pc for about 2 hours. need to move to something easier, but this works for now.
I know I have some kind of bacteria going on here, but I can't pinpoint where this is falling apart. I know the spawn was clean.
Thoughts?
any insight is much appreciated 
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dankington
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
#23137839 - 04/20/16 04:27 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is this the same substrate you use for your cubes also? The reason I ask is because straw and hpoo must be properly pasteurized or they will contaminate.
And you're positive the spawn were clean too? Are you removing the lid of the mono a lot or anything? Any changes that you can think of from one grow to another? Sorry, I know I'm not much help, but I'm just trying to help figure this out a bit.
Where are the spores from, a syringe? Print that you inoculated agar with? If you did spores directly to grain, that could be the problem too.
Edited by dankington (04/20/16 05:13 PM)
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Mr.PhilCybin
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: dankington]
#23137860 - 04/20/16 04:31 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
dankington said: Is this the same substrate you use for your cubes also? The reason I ask is because straw and hpoo must be properly sterilized or they will contaminate.
And you're positive the spawn were clean too? Are you removing the lid of the mono a lot or anything? Any changes that you can think of from one grow to another? Sorry, I know I'm not much help, but I'm just trying to help figure this out a bit.
Where are the spores from, a syringe? Print that you inoculated agar with? If you did spores directly to grain, that could be the problem too.
nope. I run coir for my cubes, but I've used this combo for subs in the past for little trays. so I know it goes.
you don't sterilize these subs, you pasteurize them, which could be the issue, but I don't think that's the main issue this time.
I've taken the lid off to fan when it was too moist early on, but that shouldn't really matter. you can take the lid off as much as you want in theory, it'll just dry out.
spores are from a clean print, laid to agar, and ran through 4 transfers before going to grain.
no worries man, I appreciate the interest. I'm hoping to get someone in here that's experienced with pans like fox or a tc maybe.
I have some cambos colonizing the same sub right now and they look great. it's just weird.
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mary fairchild
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
#23137933 - 04/20/16 05:01 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Have you had success with that exact substrate mix with cubes?
The reason I ask is because a couple months ago I did a Pan cy Jamaican grow under two different substrate conditions-
One was a purchased horse poo sub and the other was a a cow poo based sub that I made from cow pies I collected. The spawn to purchased horse poo sub worked great- fruited in 4-5 days with lotsa product but my cow based sub took ~11days to fruit and gave ~90% fewer pins.
The spawn that was mixed with each sub was from the same rye grain jars and both subs were STERILIZED. Both subs colonized at the same rate and looked and smelled the same.
Getting to my point... I don't think there was a contamination but rather that my own sub was not properly aged to support fruiting- at least for Pan cyan fruiting.
But this may all be moot if the sub you used has worked for you in the past.
Just a thought.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
Edited by mary fairchild (06/02/16 08:04 AM)
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Mr.PhilCybin
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: mary fairchild]
#23137939 - 04/20/16 05:04 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah this exact mix has worked with cubes in trays before, minus the addition of a little coir, but I can't see that being the issue.
the hpoo was bought online pre dried and leeched, and like I said it's worked for cubes, but none of my pan grows.
I've probably tossed 2 monos, and maybe 2 or 3 trays at this point and it's just getting annoying.
I felt like I had my major n00b years behind me 
is it common for people to sterilize poo? I've heard of it here and there but I was under the impression you didn't need to. I know for some subs you'll actually be worse off if you sterilize instead of past.
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mary fairchild
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
#23137953 - 04/20/16 05:11 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sorry for the redundancy of my comment, Bummer that you wasted all the spawn and substrate on mono tubs. Maybe it is a contam problem.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
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dankington
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
#23137955 - 04/20/16 05:14 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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No, I believe you're correct with pasteurizing instead of sterilizing. I just mistyped, but corrected my post.
Are these monos re-used? Perhaps they weren't cleaned well enough? I really can't wait to hear some opinions from some real vets.
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Mr.PhilCybin
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: mary fairchild]
#23137957 - 04/20/16 05:15 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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wasn't redundant at all, no worries.
It's the way it goes, I just can't find the source of the contam. my last attempt I was trying a new pasteurization method, and I think that was the issue cause it triched out. (common with straw thats not done right IME)
but this is a different bacteria that I haven't really seen.
-------------------- I'm stupid, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is smart.
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Mr.PhilCybin
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: dankington]
#23137958 - 04/20/16 05:16 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
dankington said: No, I believe you're correct with pasteurizing instead of sterilizing. I just mistyped, but corrected my post.
Are these monos re-used? Perhaps they weren't cleaned well enough? I really can't wait to hear some opinions from some real vets.
yeah it's been fruited in before but I washed it with warm soapy water  after your spawn run you don't need sterile conditions anymore so it would need to be caked with mold to affect it I think.
same though, fox needs to come in here and rip me apart
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dankington
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
#23137969 - 04/20/16 05:21 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is that big white ball looking thing a bubble? If so it could be verticillium (Lencacillium fungicola). What does it smell like? I imagine you might have more luck in the contamination forum, actually.
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mary fairchild
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: mary fairchild]
#23137980 - 04/20/16 05:26 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Regarding the sterilization vs pasteurization question- this is a NOOB answer- but I've used a horse based sub from a reputable sponsor that they say is STERILIZED and it works GREAT for Pans.
I'd prefer to use my homemade sub to save money but I sterilized my sub to make a valid comparison to the horse based sub- unfortunately as I mentioned above my sub flopped pretty bad- but I'm still working at it.
I've read all the stuff about pasteurizing- I probably should pasteurize but until it stops working I may continue to sterilize the sub.
-------------------- Documented Grows
We are stardust- billion year old carbon- caught in the devils bargain- Joni Mitchell
Edited by mary fairchild (05/11/16 04:23 PM)
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Josex
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: dankington]
#23137994 - 04/20/16 05:33 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's a pity that you had to lose all those tubs man. Have you considered bottle tekking them? You can use smaller PP5 containers with them and sterilize the whole thing. This way you are going to cut some contam vectors and you wouldn't have all your eggs in one basket so to speak.
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99.99
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: Josex]
#23138223 - 04/20/16 07:04 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Try not to use straw it contaminates very easy,I also tried RYE berries it sucked because it would never fruit I use 5 cups vermiculite 3 cups manure 10 tblspns Brown rice flower hydrate vermiculite to full capacity before you add it to the mix and the water content should be about perfect
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Snazz
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: 99.99]
#23138522 - 04/20/16 08:52 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Agreed, I would drop the straw.
My recipe for mycobag (per pint)
2L aged steer mixed with 1c perlite
2L hydrated verm 1/4c stevia leaf 1/4c gypsum 1/4c oyster shells (optional)
Perl helps fluff the (top-soil like) aged poo even more. Pans like it. Sub density for cubes isn't all that important.
Held at 140-155 degrees for 2+ hours in a cooler. Typically refresh the water twice. Once you get the times down, heat exchange is pretty consistent
It's odd though, typically contams drive earlier fruiting. Maybe some odd genes thrown into the mix too
Edited by Snazz (04/20/16 09:00 PM)
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spacechildo
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: Snazz] 1
#23139489 - 04/21/16 07:33 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you're feeling comfortable you know how to pasteurize the sub mix, and has done it and had success with cubes, but all pan grows fail, I wanna say you're just not used to seeing pan myc on agar. it looks more like mold than cube myc does, so if there were some mold intertwined in your myc its harder to spot on pans than cubes IMO.
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Mr.PhilCybin
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Registered: 06/13/11
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: spacechildo]
#23140307 - 04/21/16 12:13 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Josex said: It's a pity that you had to lose all those tubs man. Have you considered bottle tekking them? You can use smaller PP5 containers with them and sterilize the whole thing. This way you are going to cut some contam vectors and you wouldn't have all your eggs in one basket so to speak.
It's all good I'm in no hurry, and just playing with pans for fun that's how it goes sometimes. I've thought about getting some mini monos for that reason, but I'm not really into the whole bottle tek thing. I see it work well for others, but im not interested 
Quote:
99.99 said: Try not to use straw it contaminates very easy,I also tried RYE berries it sucked because it would never fruit I use 5 cups vermiculite 3 cups manure 10 tblspns Brown rice flower hydrate vermiculite to full capacity before you add it to the mix and the water content should be about perfect
Quote:
Snazz said: Agreed, I would drop the straw.
My recipe for mycobag (per pint)
2L aged steer mixed with 1c perlite
2L hydrated verm 1/4c stevia leaf 1/4c gypsum 1/4c oyster shells (optional)
Perl helps fluff the (top-soil like) aged poo even more. Pans like it. Sub density for cubes isn't all that important.
Held at 140-155 degrees for 2+ hours in a cooler. Typically refresh the water twice. Once you get the times down, heat exchange is pretty consistent
It's odd though, typically contams drive earlier fruiting. Maybe some odd genes thrown into the mix too
word. maybe ill try my next run without straw. It works great for my cubes, so I don't think it would be the main factor for contam, but it wouldn't hurt to try. obviously what im doing now isn't working 
Quote:
spacechildo said: If you're feeling comfortable you know how to pasteurize the sub mix, and has done it and had success with cubes, but all pan grows fail, I wanna say you're just not used to seeing pan myc on agar. it looks more like mold than cube myc does, so if there were some mold intertwined in your myc its harder to spot on pans than cubes IMO.
I mean, I know that the way I pasteurize works for me most of the time with cubes, but it's all pretty fast n loose style, with no real repeatable structure. I think that might be my issue, but there's so many variables it's hard to tell.
While, I've never gotten a good flush, I've probably made close to a hundred transfers of pan myc on plates over the years, so I'm pretty sure my plates, and spawn were clean and it's my sub. I smell the plates every time I toss the old one, so I think i have a good idea of the difference in smell and look of nice pan myc.
It's gotta be my past. method.
Maybe I'll leave the straw out, and sterilize?
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spacechildo
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
#23140327 - 04/21/16 12:20 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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dont sterilize manure or any other sub than CVG. rather keep an eye on the temps while you're pasteruizing.
lot of molds doesnt show its face until you introduce FAE in the tub. without seeing pics of either plates or grain jars its hard to say whether its spawn or sub..
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Mr.PhilCybin
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: spacechildo]
#23140332 - 04/21/16 12:24 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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word.
I need to get another meat thermometer.
I've just been eye balling everything and it's not surprising it's turning out this way.
I'll probably lay some spores back to a plate in a day or two, and I'll just document it fully 
thanks for the help homie
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spacechildo
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
#23140362 - 04/21/16 12:38 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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any time man! after a while you dont really need the thermometer anymore, you know how your oven works, but I still like to use it for safety just to make sure. peace of mind is priceless IMO.
If you wanna cut down on vectors you can do a grow on simple CVG. pans dont love it like cubes do but they can do fairly well on cvg nonetheless. if it still contams you may wanna look more closely on your spawn/plates.
just looked at the OP pic now, are you sure that's a contam from spawn/sub and not just dried up myc btw? dry myc cant fend against mold spores IME, and often turns out yellowish like that.
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Mr.PhilCybin
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Re: Help me figure out why my pans won't go [Re: spacechildo]
#23140371 - 04/21/16 12:43 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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I tried a cvg pan grow months ago, and it fully colonized, sat in my fc for like 3 weeks, and shot off a couple week ass fruits that were no bigger than 2" so i bought the poo hoping to slay it
I had a meat therm like a year ago, but it was shitty and broke, so I've never really gotten a good idea of when the sub is in the range. so honestly I don't know how my oven works relative to the core temps 
nah no idea, it was ripping through super fast, rhizo growth, then the top got super matty like that over the casing (which I haven't seen), and it was too wet so I opened the lid to dry it out a bit, but probably over dried it.
it smelled good, and had rhizo growth for a while
-------------------- I'm stupid, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is smart.
I'm ugly, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is beautiful.
I'm a loser, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is a winner.
Someday, I hope to be like Falcon91Wolvrn03 but secretly know I never will.
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