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InvisibleTrueBrode
Stranger

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 287
"Believers"
    #2312901 - 02/07/04 10:34 PM (13 years, 23 days ago)

How can one claim to be a "free thinker," when in fact their thinking is not free, but tailored to what they want to believe- by none other than what they actually desire.

I am not Christian, and I do not believe in any orthodox Christian principles, yet I realized recently that I do not WANT Christianity to be true, due to its strict doctrine. This clouds many people's observations of theology- this impartial mind-set- in delving into a religous doctrine.

When one overcomes the desire behind their thought, or in other cases the preconceived notion(s) that affirms their current world view, then, and only then, are they are truly and fully capable of reaching conlusions about the validity of a religous doctrine.


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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
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Re: "Believers" [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2313076 - 02/08/04 12:01 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

TrueBrode said:
How can one claim to be a "free thinker," when in fact their thinking is not free, but tailored to what they want to believe- by none other than what they actually desire.




How do you know that they desire to be true that which they believe to be true?

I think one could have a desire and hope it's true, but there may also be those who don't have any desire whatsoever that anything be true in a given area but discover a truth to it after all.

Quote:

I am not Christian, and I do not believe in any orthodox Christian principles, yet I realized recently that I do not WANT Christianity to be true, due to its strict doctrine. This clouds many people's observations of theology- this impartial mind-set- in delving into a religous doctrine.




Maybe you are extrapolating your desires and subsequent beliefs onto those who believe but didn't have any precipitating desire.
I don't know anyone who does what you suggest, but I don't exactly sit around and analyze people's belief patterns and systems to see if what you say holds true for all or even most people.

Quote:

When one overcomes the desire behind their thought, or in other cases the preconceived notion(s) that affirms their current world view, then, and only then, are they are truly and fully capable of reaching conlusions about the validity of a religous doctrine.




See, I tend to do what you seem to be doing, but in reverse. I don't have (I don't think) any preconceived notions about the world, so I don't expect others to have preconceived notions, either.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
Loc: oz
Re: "Believers" [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2313086 - 02/08/04 12:04 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

"When one overcomes the desire behind their thought, or in other cases the preconceived notion(s) that affirms their current world view, then, and only then, are they are truly and fully capable of reaching conlusions about the validity of a religous doctrine."

When does one know that their desire's aren't clouding their judgement. isn't the idea of overcoming the desire behind their thoughts jsut another desire of a person in itself?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: "Believers" [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2313099 - 02/08/04 12:10 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

Believers is such a broad topic. I think your topic might have been better named, Lemming's.

But in any event, i know what you are saying. People need to look at things for themselves, its that simple. Some people just choose certain theologies because that suits them, but some people do ignore things in that, and other people like me, just take a taste of all of the different ideas. I try to decide for myself what is the most sound information,..

For me it was getting to that point, of erasing my preconcieved identity, and turning myself into my own creator. Belief then became the security/faith that i had in myself, which i needed, to get me through life, and all these other things that i encounter.

You believe what you do because thats how you have come to think it to be, think about what you believe, maybe you can change your ideas. Where you are going seems to be a bigger question for me.


--------------------
What?


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Registered: 04/19/02
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Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: "Believers" [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2313116 - 02/08/04 12:15 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

You can find truth in everything. And it sounds to me like you certainly beleive in your own beleifs.


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
Loc: oz
Re: "Believers" [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #2313126 - 02/08/04 12:20 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

good point earth droid! 

it is also equally "true" that we can find faults in everything as well. :wink:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Anonymous

Re: "Believers" [Re: Frog]
    #2313150 - 02/08/04 12:37 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Anno [Re: Frog]
    #2313236 - 02/08/04 01:21 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)



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Anonymous

Re: "Believers" [Re: ]
    #2313275 - 02/08/04 01:33 AM (13 years, 23 days ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


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InvisibleTrueBrode
Stranger

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 287
Re: "Believers" [Re: kaiowas]
    #2314049 - 02/08/04 12:56 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

When does one know that their desire's aren't clouding their judgement. isn't the idea of overcoming the desire behind their thoughts jsut another desire of a person in itself?

This is sort of what I was getting at. When do we know that we are not succumbing to the desire of our own mind? Is it possible for us to make religious decisions based off truth, or is it always tainted with some kind of desire, want or affirmation of our belief? Is Atheism tainted by any desire, do atheists want this world to be all there is- is it fear that prevents them from thinking about or considering a universal way to live (atheists often tend to be subjective thinkers from my experience), or are all those involved with religion the ones that have the tainted belief? These seem like unanswerable questions to me.


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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
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Re: "Believers" [Re: ]
    #2314781 - 02/08/04 04:55 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

Okay, I'm open, and I'm game, and I'm trying to find something to do to keep me awake. 

What are my "preconceived notions"?

:grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: "Believers" [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2314789 - 02/08/04 04:59 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

Well, by default all religions are incorrect because they can't all be right. Lets say there is one right religion. Heck, let's call Scientology 'the one'. 6 billion or so people are blindly following incorrect beliefs. If you are an atheist or agnostic, you are not bound by strict teachings designed to make you feel guilty about arbitrary infractions, thus you are able to think about things more 'objectively' because you have allowed yourself a certain degree of emotional detachment from your intellectual ventures. Plus, even if I may not know much about the universe, I still refuse to have my will bent by others who I plainly see to be more lost than me and who have built their beliefs upon the backs of others.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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