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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23117309 - 04/14/16 03:03 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
well, look, i hear you pretty much on all points. my point is thus however: the Inuits doing all this is not the same as some Royalty, or just some expedition of travellers, going over to club seals.



unfortunately, when it comes to the effects of seal product boycotts, a distinction is very rarely made to separate inuit seal products from the rest of the commercial industry--negatively impacting these communities



Quote:

and on that note, none of that would help anyone else's culture and economy. but for Inuits, as i said earlier, it's a means of a survival.



i'm not sure why you think that the social and economic benefits of the seal hunt being localized to the participating communities to be a point worth bringing up--would you expect a local industry in nunavut to directly effect folks living in ottawa?

and as for it being a means of survival, though it is true that at its most basic the seal hunt is a subsistence hunt for the inuit people, i feel that my post above showed how the seal hunt is more than just a means to gather food--if it was simple about this, international boycotts would not matter



Quote:

but not for just any one whom resides in Canada; it's not honor for them. in my opinion, then it's straddling the line between somekind of cumbersome appropriation, or some very tenuous cultural "hi-fiving" -- which, frankly, i can imagine plenty of Inuit being either ok with it, or perhaps just finding it totally idiotic.



and i don't really know what you are trying to say here--are you suggesting that folks of non-inuit descent are guilty of appropriating seal hunting in the same thread of thought as how folks claim dreadlocks are appropriated?


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Invisiblelavod
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #23117445 - 04/14/16 03:55 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

lavod said:
Do i have an extreme bias toward pinnipeds?  Definitely, but i know how brutal the cull is as well as the lies and deceit the Canadian government has used to support the atrocity.  It wont be long before harps seals are endangered if the cull continues.  Besides shitty humans and predators, they've been losing their floes at an high rate the last few years.

But i'm ignorant, right? I only think seals are cute and know nothing about the cull, right?



what exactly are you opposed to?


is it inhumane killing methods? because peer reviewed studies have been released showing that the majority of the hunt occurs in an acceptable humane manner, while also stating that the small number not killed humanely justifies a continued attention to the industries activities by vetrinarian observers to esnure guidelines are followed--if you are opposed to seals being killed inhumanely, then perhaps focus your efforts on ensuring continual improvement in hunting methods rather than walking the path you currently do?

are you claiming the hunt is unsustainable? then what is your response to the fact that harp seal populations have tripled since the low point of the mid 1900's, in large part due to hunting management? if there is any threat to seal population, it is disappearing sea ice due to global warming, so if you are so concerned about the welfare of seals than perhaps focus your attention towards preventing climate change rather than predation

or perhaps you are saying it is not economically important? if so, you have obviously never been to depressed communities in newfoundland or across the canadian north



so, i'm not saying you are ignorant, but i'm trying to understand what exactly you are opposed to; because it seems to me you are just opposed to seals, an animal you consider yourself to have a spiritual connection with, being killed regardless of the circumstances




Thank you for addressing me with respect, unlike my3rd eye.  I do not take kindly to being called ignorant as i most certainly am not.  I'll try to address the points you brought up in sequence.  In regards to what i'm opposed to, it is the Canadian and Namibian seal hunts in every way.  The only acceptance i have for seal hunting is by aboriginals for sustenance only.

I dispute the claim that the seal hunt is humane.  Over the years i've followed this atrocity, i've heard much ov the blatant disregard for humane killing by sealers.  Like i've said many seals are skinned while still alive.  Protocols for ensuring that a seal is deceased before skinning are required but rarely enforced.  And many seals do get away wounded(usually from rifle hits), only to die later. 

Seals do face issues with climate change and diminished floe areas as stated earlier, but the hunt is an untenable practice to ensure survival ov this species.  I question what you mean by " hunting management"?  Canada implemented the quota system in 1971, but the quota is dramatically higher than the amount killed as the demand for skins is dramatically lower.  Sealers are basically given a license to kill as many seals as they want even though they often have to dump them when buyers refuse to purchase.  But sealers are quite happy to kill seals regardless ov demand because many are under the erroneous belief that seals are detrimental to their fishing industry.  Kills are frequently not reported once the demand dies up. 

No, sealing is not economically important.  As i've said before, the seal hunt on average comprises about 4% ov a fisherman's yearly income.  I do'nt know why people think it's a cash cow.  The net profits reported for the 2014 hunt were a mere half million, while it cost taxpayers several times that to support the hunt with icebreakers and such.  The market and demand just is'nt there.  It would literally be more profitable for the government to appropriate tax money intended for the hunt towards these poor communities, than to continue with the hunt.

And yes, i am also opposed to seals being killed regardless.  This is why i hate polar bears, orcas, and large sharks with a passion.  I'm a massive pinniped lover and have been since a wee tot, i'll admit, but i also feel, no, i KNOW, that the seal hunt is not only an inhumane massacre but one that is not necessary in any capacity except for aboriginal sustenance.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #23117447 - 04/14/16 03:55 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

my point is: no one should boycott the Inuit products. but no one but the  Inuits should be making those products.

fair is fair.

Quote:

are you suggesting that folks of non-inuit descent are guilty of appropriating seal hunting in the same thread of thought as how folks claim dreadlocks are appropriated?





i'm suggesting that those whom pay to go on the hunt (like those whom go on the Savannah to shoot lions) should have a better conscience.

that is all i am saying.

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: lavod]
    #23117659 - 04/14/16 04:48 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lavod said:
I dispute the claim that the seal hunt is humane.  Over the years i've followed this atrocity, i've heard much ov the blatant disregard for humane killing by sealers.  Like i've said many seals are skinned while still alive.  Protocols for ensuring that a seal is deceased before skinning are required but rarely enforced.  And many seals do get away wounded(usually from rifle hits), only to die later.



can i ask what sources you are using for these claims?--in the post you replied i linked to both a peer reviewed study published by the canadian veterinary medical association (a respected national advocate for animal welfare), stating that the vast majority (98%) of kills happened in an acceptably humane way--though it also states that the limited kills that go against guidelines still necessitate continued observation of the hunt

many of the anti-hunt organizations run extremely hyperbolic campaigns--for example, PETA also holds the position that shearing sheep is a cruel act--i used to believe what they said myself, until i ventured into the north and met with some inuit folk--think about this, have you ever skinned an animal?--unless you were a sadist, why would you want the animal to be alive and moving about during this process?--especially if you were planning to sell the pelt and therefore wanted the highest quality (this is the reasoning behind the club too)



Quote:

Seals do face issues with climate change and diminished floe areas as stated earlier, but the hunt is an untenable practice to ensure survival ov this species.  I question what you mean by " hunting management"?  Canada implemented the quota system in 1971, but the quota is dramatically higher than the amount killed as the demand for skins is dramatically lower.  Sealers are basically given a license to kill as many seals as they want even though they often have to dump them when buyers refuse to purchase.  But sealers are quite happy to kill seals regardless ov demand because many are under the erroneous belief that seals are detrimental to their fishing industry.  Kills are frequently not reported once the demand dies up.



by `hunting management' i refer particularly to the canadian governments response, in 1971, to conservation groups calling for stronger regulations to avert extinction of the species--yearly quotas are set, with the goal of ensuring a strong and stable population, and although it is true that the quote for the past few years have surpassed the number of seals taken, it would be erroneous to call this a license to kill--the quota limits the catch to sustainable numbers, whether the fishermen decide to take their full quota or half of it

and by all means, this management has been a resounding success as the population of harp seals has tripled since it's mid-century low--although, i will admit that climate change and vanishing sea are now posing new challenges to the seal population, and there is a possibility that responsible management will dictate that the hunt be closed in the future--but currently, this is not necessary
 


Quote:

No, sealing is not economically important.  As i've said before, the seal hunt on average comprises about 4% ov a fisherman's yearly income.  I do'nt know why people think it's a cash cow.  The net profits reported for the 2014 hunt were a mere half million, while it cost taxpayers several times that to support the hunt with icebreakers and such.  The market and demand just is'nt there.  It would literally be more profitable for the government to appropriate tax money intended for the hunt towards these poor communities, than to continue with the hunt.



where does this 4% figure come from, may i ask?--it's true that, for the fisherman who also spend part of the year catching lobster and cod, that seals will make only a small percentage of their yearly income--but when it comes to the inuit communities, oftentimes there is no other option except government welfare--and the resulting hopelessness leads to some of the highest rates of depression, alcoholism, suicide, and abuse in the world--both the festival of the hunting season, and the artistry and craftmanship of artisanal seal products, provide not just an economic boon to these communities, but also one for morale and spirit



Quote:

And yes, i am also opposed to seals being killed regardless.  This is why i hate polar bears, orcas, and large sharks with a passion.  I'm a massive pinniped lover and have been since a wee tot, i'll admit, but i also feel, no, i KNOW, that the seal hunt is not only an inhumane massacre but one that is not necessary in any capacity except for aboriginal sustenance.



well, you haven't managed to convince me that your knowledge arises from anything of greater depth than your own emotional reaction towards seals being killed


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (04/14/16 04:54 PM)

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23117710 - 04/14/16 05:02 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
my point is: no one should boycott the Inuit products. but no one but the  Inuits should be making those products.

fair is fair.

Quote:

are you suggesting that folks of non-inuit descent are guilty of appropriating seal hunting in the same thread of thought as how folks claim dreadlocks are appropriated?





i'm suggesting that those whom pay to go on the hunt (like those whom go on the Savannah to shoot lions) should have a better conscience.

that is all i am saying.



the problem though, is that due to the emotional nature of these campaigns, boycotts rarely distinguish between indigenous and non-indigenous seal products (especially at the consumer level)--with the result that inuit communities are negatively impacted--if the anti-hunt campaigns are truly only concerned with the non-indigenous commercial hunt, they should admit the harm their campaign has done to inuit communities and take on a greater responsibility to prevent their rhetoric from having this effect


as to that second point, i don't think anyone is paying to go on a seal clubbing safari


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #23117742 - 04/14/16 05:12 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

people used to, and i presume it still occurs, on occasion, because it was positively a passtime and hobby in the old days. seal stuff obvious fetches a pretty penny.

which if they didn't do, by the way, there'd probably be more understanding for the Inuits, presumably.

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23117768 - 04/14/16 05:21 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

i don't understand what you are getting at--the seal hunt is a commercial venture, not a passtime or hobby

i'm not sure how any of that is relevant to the impact of seal product boycotts on inuit communities, anyways


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 2
    #23117803 - 04/14/16 05:29 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Joke time.

So a seal walks into a club.

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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: PatrickKn] * 1
    #23117804 - 04/14/16 05:29 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PatrickKn said:
Joke time.

So a seal walks into a club.




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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: PatrickKn] * 1
    #23117806 - 04/14/16 05:30 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PatrickKn said:
Quote:

PatrickKn said:
Joke time.

So a seal walks into a club.










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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: PatrickKn] * 1
    #23117810 - 04/14/16 05:31 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: PatrickKn]
    #23117821 - 04/14/16 05:33 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)




K, I'm done now.

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OfflineSupachopped719
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #23117840 - 04/14/16 05:38 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I could hunt. I've killed farm animals before. But I couldn't kill one of these deals unless I was really really hungry or had spent an extended amount of time up in that culture. But as a guy right now, I couldn't do it. They are so cute and look like my dog.


--------------------
Real Eyes Realize Real Lies.

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #23117929 - 04/14/16 06:03 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
i don't understand what you are getting at--the seal hunt is a commercial venture, not a passtime or hobby

i'm not sure how any of that is relevant to the impact of seal product boycotts on inuit communities, anyways



a commercial venture can also be a passtime and hobby. are you trying to tell me that back in the early 1900s there weren't non-Inuit prospector's of seal remains for the purposes of hunting for sport (whilst soliciting for sale of fats ect)?

look, i'm sure you're not...but whatever.

what i said was impartial to any kind of discussion you may or may not think has occurred. i just posted my opinion in an old thread.

but i'd love your answer, nonetheless -- to my question, that is.

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23117957 - 04/14/16 06:09 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

of course seal sport hunting exists, but in the context of "the seal hunt" and "seal product boycotts" we are strictly talking about commercial hunting

either way, sport hunting would be considered a drop in the bucket compared to the commercial catch, and i would consider it a non-issue at this time


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #23117998 - 04/14/16 06:17 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

sure, oh, it was mostly prospector's back in the old days, that's who i am talking about -- and as a side-point, i'd be willing to wager that it's those old timey folk who killed seemingly so nonchalantly and yet so eagerly at the same time, whom set the wheels in motion to boycott...not the Inuit, as you've frequently have noted at, but now i'm gonna connect our two points.

of course, this is how it occurs when the frankly uninformed opinion is frankly true, and there's nothing to disagree about.

you're right & i'm right. we now have an explanation for your reasoning, and one for mine, also.

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23118046 - 04/14/16 06:29 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

nope, i am still confused...


what were the prospectors doing 'back in the old days'?

and are you suggesting that the folks who were hunting seals a hundred years ago are the same people who are now calling for seal product boycotts, or were theira actions responsible for other people calling now for the boycott?

regardless, i've never implied that the inuits actions were responsible for the seal product boycott--my point is that the boycott negatively impact their wellbeing, and people should be made aware of this issue before letting their emotions decide that the seal hunt in inherently more cruel than any other form of hunting or slaughter


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Canada can go suck it! [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #23118119 - 04/14/16 06:46 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

see, you still think i am talking about what you are talking about. i am not.

1: the prospectors were clubbing seals for their hides and fats.

2: no, i am not suggesting that they are the same people, i am suggesting the opposite, and agreeing with you that that is not what is happening (prevalence and rationale of number 1 is ie not applicable now) -- but i am suggesting that the massive import of seal stuffs from the "old days" (and the subsequent film, articles ect) led to a prevalence of thought and perhaps misconception on the public's part about it's necessity in the Inuit industry, of course, away from other prospectors, that aren't doing the hunt ceremoniously, and for the reasons of their industry and survival eg by 'outsiders' coming to hunt they are essentially cutting into the Inuit's industry of (not merely profit but...) survival.

3: i didn't say you implied that Inuit actions were responsible for the seal product boycott -- i said the 'outsiders' (those whom are Canadian or otherwise, but not Inuit) coming in to make such import of the act of 'the hunt' (or in more common parlance, clubbing seals) and make such a 'huge' business off of it, and for the sake of THEIR industry and not the Inuit's survival, undercutting them, and then all the same while doing the hunt much less ceremonially and more cruelly (ie not with the same tact and with more prevalence of the act eg overabundance of killing, and unceremoniously, whilst undercutting the traditional and rooted and worthy-causes and necessity of the Inuit...basically i am taking a huge conservative position on this, and we should basically agree, but you are confused.)

4:
Quote:

my point is that the boycott negatively impact their wellbeing, and people should be made aware of this issue before letting their emotions decide that the seal hunt in inherently more cruel than any other form of hunting or slaughter




we can agree on that much at least.

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