Home | Community | Message Board

World Seed Supply
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: kaiowas]
    #2310950 - 02/07/04 03:40 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

"no we will be the cause of our extinction, not the tools. just like we can help ourselves, not the tools. you know, gns don't kill people, people kill people."

Well this is basically semantics.... without tools, it would be incredibly hard to wipe ourselves out.. Its like you said, "whenever did the idea come about that more is better? oh that's right!! money!!!!" heh the flag can be placed on money as well but naturally yes we invented money so the problem is US, right? nah, the monkeys invented US... its their fault.. nah, its LIFE's fault, nah its the UNIVERSE! heh it can be taken back as far as we'd like, but I like to take it forward and say its TOOLS that could definitely fuck us over right now, but they could save us too. we're almost a product of our own tools by now anyway (raised by television..money..Nobody alive invented money; its a machine now, working its inventor's magic) - its harder to get away from 'stuff' than other creatures! (have the machines taken over without us noticing?) anyway I'm getting off-topic.. I think I was going to address something else too (whether that's good or bad is your call :wink:)

"when you have the essentials of being alive, what's there to worry about really?"

shouldn't we be concerned with those who DON'T even get the essentials of being alive, or just be thrilled that we're not them?

"just BE HERE NOW"

I feel that, definitely, but there is time for thinking about being here tomorrow too in my opinion.. along with my fellow humans.. and their children..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenemesis
Stranger

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 110
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: ]
    #2310963 - 02/07/04 03:51 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
What do you think about Jihad?




Brother, many are confused about Jihad and the media portrays it negatively, Jihad literally means strugle and the only time we are permitted to fight is when we are opressed out of our homes or not allowed to practise our religion freely in our own lands, and in self-defense. That is the lower jihad, the greater jihad that is spoke of by Muslims is the struggle against desire, the evil commanding soul or ego which is the struggle we fight till our death against the Shaytan.

The Prophet (pbuh) said, "The best jihad is a just word to a tyranical leader."

Not only is suicide prohibited, along with killing women, children, innocent civilians, also forbidden is burning or destroying lands. The negative protrayl of the black sheep in the comunity, like the misquided Shia'tes is something Muslims detest and as many know, the media is a negativety pool of ratings and propoganda. We do not consider such people within the pale of Islam. We consider peace and mercy primary.

Inscribed on the prophet's sword was:
Forgive him who wrongs you; join him who cuts you off;
do good to him who does evil to you;
and speak the truth even if it be against yourself.

That is the true meaning of Islam, peace and mercy, but sadly, there are a few who take their desires and angers out to the extreme and who  go against the teachings of the Prophet and scripture.

The Prophet Muhammad said, "God is merciful to those who show mercy to others."
Also said, "Faith is a restraint against all violence, let no Mu'min(person of faith) commit violence."

Gandhi himself recognised it, "The more I study the more I discover that the strength of Islam does not lie in the sword." -Mahatma Gandhi - the father of Modern Indian, in "Young India".

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and the fastest growing in America even!

This man, from Arabia, with smallness of means, greatness of message, brought the fastest growing religion with his main goal as a mercy to all mankind and shown a humble and righteous way of life to billions.
"He was caesar and pope in one; but he was pope without the pope's pretentions, and caesar without the legions of caesar: Without a standing army, without a body guard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; If ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without the instruments and without its supports." -R. Bosworth Smith, 'Mohammad and Mohammadanism'

From the Qur'an. "And do not argue with the followers of earlier revelations except in the most gentle manner. 29:46 Goodness and Evil cannot be equal. Repel Evil with something better: then the one who hated you will become your friend and intimate! And no one will be granted such goodness except those who exercise patience and self-restraint, none but persons of the greatest good fortune. And when the Evil One incites discord, seek refuge in God. He is the One Who hears and knows all things. 41:34 And the servants of the Infinitely Compassionate are those who walk on the earth in humility and when the ignorant accost them, they only reply "Peace!" 25:65

Sorry about the digression of topic, well to some extent, its not a digression, it shows how we can live a life of peace and happiness, as one man has shown to millions.

Also, fireworks_god, You do not know if he knew the truth of or not, if he was just oblivious to what he was doing, if he had an inkling to stop and think, hmm, "I'm murdering alot and killing alot, and the teachings and beliefs in most people are of peace", since he was not oblivious and if you say that what he did was innocent, well I'll be, why dont we all go around trying to dominate every race on the planet that doesn't conform to our beliefs? Not only was he not oblivious, he wrote a book which not only proclaimed himself as a god, but as the greatest man that ever lived, and insulted everyone from blacks to all religions.. I think he would had an inkling because you dont live past the age of 20 without a slight inkling that killing lots of people == bad lol or maybe asked somebody why the rest of the world wanted to kill him lol. It's not wether he knew the ramifactions, every man knows, it is wether he cared enough to accept to step down from his plateu of arrogance.  For every man will see good from evil and then choose. May he get what he deserves, Inshallah.

As to your last statement, the values and virtues in themself are the wisdom we hold onto, for God does not need us, we are who need Him, and that is my belief, any rational man can see the virtues of all the teachings of Islam if they care to seek it :smile: .. we do what is right for we know that God wants all that is good, we abstain from all that is evil because we know God wants all that is good, and we see those two forces in this world we then make the choice, the belief in God is more then just the understanding of the wisdom, it a life of humility and peace in recognising a Creator for all of this is for Us and all that is to come is for Us, should we not be thankful?.. If your belief is different fireworks_god, so be it, may peace be all of us, for your path is yours and my path is mine. For all seekers of truth, investigate all the paths with logic and an open mind, for Truth stands out clearly from Falsehood.
www.islam-guide.com

Peace.

Edited by nemesis (02/07/04 04:06 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: nemesis]
    #2311014 - 02/07/04 04:49 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

nemesis said:
I think he would had an inkling because you dont live past the age of 20 without a slight inkling that killing lots of people == bad lol or maybe asked somebody why the rest of the world wanted to kill him lol. It's not wether he knew the ramifactions, every man knows, it is wether he cared enough to accept to step down from his plateu of arrogance.  For every man will see good from evil and then choose. May he get what he deserves, Inshallah.




First off, of course I'm in no way promoting what he did... that is out of the question. However, people who go insane in their own delusions do not see the world and their actions through the right eyes. Once someone chews on too much mercury filled hats, so to speak, (:grin:) their understanding is no longer rational, and it makes rational people wonder how they could not know what they are doing is wrong. Right and wrong would definitely not be so easily distingushed as their understanding is warped.... etc. etc.

Yes, let him get what he deserves, mercy and forgiveness and another chance, just like all the rest of us.  :laugh:

I'd like to think that Hitler is around right now, given another chance to work past his shortcomings.. hell, maybe he is Doctor J.  :lol:

Quote:


For all seekers of truth, investigate all the paths with logic and an open mind, for Truth stands out clearly from Falsehood. Peace.




Which is why I don't need an organized religion's patented eye balls to look at the world through... any sort of belief that fills in an unknown that can't actually be made known is seperating one from reality. I'm more of a freelance seeker, finding truth in all aspects of life and forming my own understanding... I could in no way suscribe to one belief or label myself in a certain way because it wouldn't be fair to me, the individual.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenemesis
Stranger

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 110
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2311040 - 02/07/04 05:38 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

If a man is deranged, he is not accountable for himself, but there were no conclusive signs of that, he was fairly well organised and mindful to write a book and almost conquer the world lol.

So be it, but keep in mind, that freedom of thought and individual recognition and respect are important in Islam, and not the blind tyrannical church organisation which has looted more money then any man can guess and mascared millions blindly, *cough* crusades *cough* pope.. May you find peace and fellicity on your journies and keep your horizons open. If you want to find out anything about Islam please PM me, I don't want to digress too far from the subject here :P


--------------------
May Peace and fellicity smile on those who seek it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: nemesis]
    #2311054 - 02/07/04 05:59 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

freedom of thought and individual recognition and respect are important in Islam

I don't doubt that this can be true for some parts of Islam. One of my friends which is a muslim (sunni) subcribes to this version of Islam.

But this is clearly not a fitting description for the majority of the Islamic world. I'm sorry, but it just isn't. I think it would be better for Islam as a whole if people like you admitted this fact.

Christianity isn't much better btw.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: nemesis]
    #2311121 - 02/07/04 07:23 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: nemesis]
    #2311206 - 02/07/04 08:51 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

nemesis said:
If a man is deranged, he is not accountable for himself, but there were no conclusive signs of that, he was fairly well organised and mindful to write a book and almost conquer the world lol.




So are serial killers, they are insanely intelligent (:grin:) and are capable of carrying out master plans..... however, there is always some sort of problem with their mind that leads them to act in this manner. There is no difference here, I think.

The man was just another man, just like all of us. If there is actually a God sitting somewhere handing out judgement, Hitler would be forgiven and shown mercy just like every other single one of us. The force that acted through Hitler was a force that acts through everything, positive and negative, forever balancing...

Quote:


So be it, but keep in mind, that freedom of thought and individual recognition and respect are important in Islam, and not the blind tyrannical church organisation which has looted more money then any man can guess and mascared millions blindly, *cough* crusades *cough* pope..




Just as much good has come out of Christianity as from Islam... no progress is ever going to be made towards peace if we hold views such as that, "my religion is holier than yours", etc....
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2311310 - 02/07/04 10:25 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'd like to think that Hitler is around right now, given another chance to work past his shortcomings.. hell, maybe he is Doctor J.





well, we all gotta be Hitler eventually.  its part of the core course requirements :lol:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenemesis
Stranger

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 110
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2311422 - 02/07/04 11:32 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

(1) Muslims dided in the 9/11, whoever kills a Muslim is not a Muslim, basicly whoever kills an innocent is like he has killed of all of mankind, that is the serious nature of the sin of murder. The Muslim ummah (comunity) was disgusted at such an act and many shocked all around the world, it was btw performed by Shia'te extremists, they believe they hold the keys to Paradise. Which puts them outside the scope of Islam's teachings and whichly completely go against the teachings of the Qu'ran and just the basics that many Muslims find it just ridiculous, as I have shown you in my reply above.

(2) Many, well I dont agree, since its the fastest growing religion in America even after 9/11, and (sunni) Muslim, or the general Ummah of Islam did not only disagree with the beliefs and views of these extremists they detest them. Talk to some more Muslims in America about what they think about the attacks and the portrayl by the media is a negative casting just like they have done with many things. The same thing goes for entheogens, anything the big guys don't like gets cast, even in this day and age afro-americans are negatively type casted. Watch Bowling in Columbine, really opens your eyes up to the media, many of you are mindful of that for those who aren't.

(3) The only war I can recall was Turkey and Greece, fighting over their right to land, it was in the hands of the second ruler of Ottamons, who was nothing like the first ruler, it was a bitter disputed and only a millitary campaign by the ruler and it was not a jihad. In the time of the Prophet not a single one which was not out of self-defense, both of his towns, Medinah and Mekkah were savagedly attacked and forced his people out. The myth of Islam and the 'Sword' is one that Gandhi himself didn't agree that Islam was spread by the sword or that Islam supported terrrorism in any way and any man who does some research will see, that even today it is spreading all over the world, by which sword I ask you?

The Prophet Muhammad  used to prohibit soldiers from killing women and children,1 and he would advise them: {...Do not betray, do not be excessive, do not kill a newborn child.}  And he also said: {Whoever has killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise, though its fragrance is found for a span of forty years.}.. There were Muslims in that tower, but esepcially it was excessive, and women and children were killed, to say that such an attack is even to be considered in Islam is absurd!

Also, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has forbidden punishment with fire.
He listed murder as the second of the major sins, and he even warned that on the Day of Judgment, {The first cases to be adjudicated between people on the Day of Judgment will be those of bloodshed.}
So all people

The Prophet (pbuh) said, "A perfect Muslim is one from whose tongue and hands mankind is safe, and a true emigrant [muhajir] is one who flees from what God has forbidden".

The messenger of God said to me (Anas), ?Son, if you are able, keep your heart from morning till night and from night till morning free from malice towards anyone?; then he said, ?Oh! My son, this is one of my laws, and he who loves my laws loves me.?

Strictly prohibitted in the Qu'ran, what we believe is the word of God.
"...If someone kills another person - unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth - it is as if he had murdered all mankind. And if anyone gives life to another person, it is as if he had given life to all mankind. Our Messengers came to them with Clear Signs but even after that many of them committed outrages in the earth. (Surat al-Ma'ida: 32)"

These sites explain it really well:
http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/ 
http://www.thetruereligion.org/usattack.htm
http://www.thetruereligion.org/terror.htm
http://www.islam-guide.com/more/#Islam-on-Terrorism

(4) I was Muslim before but not a practising Muslim, I started learning more after 9/11 and started practising, so I guess in some way you could say I did :P

And, fireworks_god, lol I don't agree but its 4am *yawn* btw I was refering to the catholic head, the pope, in the time of the crusades, ordered the killing of millions and looted billions upon billions and the second one was actually performed against the Orthodox rofl! So I was just drawing on an example, uhh, good night :smile:


--------------------
May Peace and fellicity smile on those who seek it.

Edited by nemesis (02/07/04 11:55 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: nemesis]
    #2311497 - 02/07/04 12:03 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenemesis
Stranger

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 110
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: ]
    #2312275 - 02/07/04 04:27 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Brother, what Qur'an translation do you have? .. What you are citing is missing alot of the original Arabic structure and meaning, like its said, A Qur'an is not a Qur'an unless its in Arabic but it can be learned in English but the commentary and Arabic structure must be kept.

I recommenda Yusuf Islam translation or similiar with commentary, the Qur'an is a detailed book which takes scholars long time to translate perfectly with commentary. And WOW, I don't know where you got them from :P

And so judge (you O Muhmmad [peace be upon him]) among them by what Allah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beawre of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad [pbuh]) far away from some of that which Allah has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs.And truely, most of men are Fasiqun (rebellios and diobedient to Allah)" Al-Maidah Sura 5:49

btw, Allah is the Arabic proper noun for the one God, all use of God is the word Allah

that verse is continued with, "Do they then seek the judgement of (the days of) Ignorance?[1] And who is better in judgement then God for a people who have firm Faith." 5:50

[1] Is important commentary, the Prophet said, "The most hated persons to God are three: (1) A person who deviates from the right conduct i.e., an evil doer, in the Haram (sanctuaries of Makkah and Al-Madinah); (2) a person who wants that the traditions of the pre-Islamic period of ignorance should remain in Islam, and (3) a person who seeks to shed somebody's blood without any right."

"O you who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians as Auliya' [an Arabic word that should be been interepreted meaning, (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Auliya' of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Auliya'), then surely he is one of them. Verily, God guides not those people who are Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust)" 5:51.. that is 51, and that verse instructs us not to take them as close friends, the word in Arabic means, protectors, helpers and friends, as in over someone who is Muslim, but to deal with them with respect and peace.

"Will they not turn with repentance to Allah and ask for His Fforgiveness? For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[2]" 5:74
The Prophet said, "Allah is more pleased with repentance of His slave then anyone of you is pleased with finding his camel which he had lost in the desert."
And those Arabs loved their camels lol :smile:
Your translation is not accurate, that is verse 74.

"O you who keep the faith! When you go abroad in the way of God, be clear and circumspect and say not to anyone who offers you a greeting of peace: "You are not a believer!" 4:94
"And do not argue with the followers of earlier revelations except in the most gentle manner." 29:46

We are not even mean't to insult them in any way, backbiting can be a serious thing.

Your verse of 8:59 is very weak, do not trust that translation.

"And let not those who disbelieve think that they can outstrip (escape from the punishment). Verily, they will never be able to save themselves (from God's punishment)." 8:59
"And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war to threaten the enemy of God and your enemy, and others besides whom, you may not know but whom God does know. And whatever you shall spend in the Cause of God shall be repaid unto you, and you shall not be treated unjustly." 8:60
"But if they incline to peace, you also incline to it, and (put your) trust in God. Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower." 8:61

Your verse was grossly distored, it means if war comes about, due to legit reasons like I have stated in my last replies, then fight with all you can, dont forget the prohibitions on excession, killing the innocent or newborn.. and then it goes onto to say, if they want peace or accept peace, you too accept peace and put your trust in God, for he knows what is best, and peace is best :smile:

I only went into a bried discussion above, I could have cited many more verses all tied in, just like these, because it was revealed in a certain order, and when the Prophet recited it he would add commentary and explain it in the best way (the Hadith)

Finally, chapter 9, here is a verse from chapter 2:
"And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgerssors. [The verse is supplemented by (9:36)]"
"Verily, the number of months of Allah is twelve months (in a year), so was it ordained by Allah on the Day when He created the heaves and the earth; of them four are Sacred. That is the right religion, so wrong not yourselves therein, and fight against the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) collectively as they fight against you collectively. But know that Allah is with those who are Al-Muttaqun (the pious, who perform all that is good, forbid all that is evil [including all that is prohbitted in war])" 9:36

Verse 9:5 is actually:
"Then when the Sacred  Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (polythiests, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) wherever you find them, and captuer them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat(Muslim prayer), and give Zakat, then leave way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving."
That is refering to the hypocrites, who were Muslim and betrayed the ummah in some way unjustly, the verse before explains about others:
"Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfil their treaty to them for the end of their term. Sure Allah loves Al-Muttaqun(the pious)."

"And if anyone of the Mushrikun seeks your protection then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an) and escort him to where he can be secure, that is becase they are men who know not." 9:6
"How can there be a covenant with Allah and with His Messenger for the Mushrikun except those who you made a covenant near Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah)? So long as they are true to you, stand you true to them. Verily, Allah loves Al-Muttaqun(the pious)." 9:7


If you take into account all the verse, all of what I have said, you draw the picture of the nature of Jihad, in the time of the Prophet (pbuh) it was difficult and they were attacked by pagan tribes, they were driven out of Makkah, they were driven out of Al-Madinah, they didn't hold up their covenants or treaties and attacked the believers in evil ways. The way of jihad is just in self-defense them, for if they did not unite to fight against the oppresion they would have been weak. The Prophet (pbuh) said, "I did not come here to curse anyone but as a mercy to all of mankind." And the Qur'an needs to be understood as a whole to see the whole message, any other queries please PM me, I don't want to take up too much space here digressing but I'll be happy to answer anything.

"...If someone kills another person - unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth - it is as if he had murdered all mankind. And if anyone gives life to another person, it is as if he had given life to all mankind. Our Messengers came to them with Clear Signs but even after that many of them committed outrages in the earth. (Surat Al-Maidah 5:32)"


The Prophetic sayings, including:
"The best jihad (lit. striving) is a just word before a tyrannical authority."
"A perfect Muslim is one from whose tongue and hands mankind is safe, and a true emigrant [muhajir] is one who flees from what God has forbidden."

I have tried my best to clear up your misconceptions,
http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/the_pacifism_of_islam.html
sites like this are great, can do a better job then I. Or any of the links I have given up before.


--------------------
May Peace and fellicity smile on those who seek it.

Edited by nemesis (02/07/04 04:35 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: nemesis]
    #2312664 - 02/07/04 07:05 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenemesis
Stranger

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 110
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: ]
    #2320654 - 02/10/04 07:13 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Method of interpretation? If you are talking about interepreting the Quran then I would have to say that it is intended so that all of mankind can interpret logically as a whole, it is clear and the Prophet's sayings corelate to better explain verses while some verses have deeeper meanings.
For example,
"Glory be to Him Who create in pairs all things that which the Earth produces (the vegetable kingdom), as well as their own (human) kind (the animal kingdom) and (other) things of which they have no knowledge(like of physics)." (Sura Ya-sin) Quran 36:36

Commentary by the translator, Yusuf Ali, "Created in pairs" - "The mystery of sex runs through all creation, - in a man, in animal life, in vegetable life, and in others things of which we have no knowledge. Then there are pairs of opposite forces in nature, e.g. positive and negative electricity, etc. The atom itself consists of positively charged nucleus or proton, surrounded by negatively charged electrons. The constitution of matter itself is thus referred to as pairs of opposite energies."

"...In these are signs for a people of learning." (Sura Ru'm) Quran 30:22

No man in Arabia 1,400 years ago had knowledge of such things of physics and astronomy as are stated in the Quran, but as we discover today, we see that the Quran is meant for man of all times. Not to mention he was an illterate man.

"Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?..."  (Quran, 21:30)

The Quran on the creation of the universe, supports the big bang-
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-c.htm
The Quran on human embroyonic development-
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-a.htm
The Quran on mountains-
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-b.htm
The Quran on seas and interval waves-
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-f.htm

Many parables also exist, which require deep contemplation. The Prophet (pbuh) used to visit the mountain cave, in silence, pondering over the verses of the Quran on the creation of the Heavens and the Earth.
And this is just scratching at the surface..
http://www.islam-guide.com
http://www.harunyahya.com/


I am not a philosopher, or a scholar but the Quran is for man since the time of the Prophet till the end of time ...

muhurgle, what makes you say that? .. freedom of thought is the right to recognise what is right and what is wrong, the ability to not get condemed for opinions, all within belief and the general right to wonder, to think, to see, to advance on what could be, to be different, to be an individual. I dont know see how you do not see that is true?.. There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world and how can you say that as a whole we dont? .. The days of the Ottamon empire the Islamic world made the greatest leaps in science, of, alchemy, astronomy, art and government of its few centuries. Brought alchemy out of the realms of magic into fact. Lived in peace with Jews and Christians (unlike today)..  Today scientists from around the world, different fields, are converting to Islam. . 1 in 5 people in America are Muslim, there has been many you have encountered who you didn't even know were Muslim on a daily basis.

Ah, didn't know that Mr_Mushrooms, sadly no society is free from its black sheep. Your right MM, it might seem like an oddity due to the negative reinforcment of the media but if anyone analyses as a whole, the Muslim community, we have least alcohol consumption, highest charity and most hospitable, lowest crime and gambling rate, in the world! as a whole.. Morales, character and a friendly disposition are half of faith :smile:

I tend to ramble on, I'll leave yous at that. Curios, what you mean't by method of interpration? :laugh:

Peace be with us.


--------------------
May Peace and fellicity smile on those who seek it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: nemesis]
    #2320701 - 02/10/04 07:59 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

freedom of thought is the right to recognise what is right and what is wrong, the ability to not get condemed for opinions, all within belief and the general right to wonder, to think, to see, to advance on what could be, to be different, to be an individual. I dont know see how you do not see that is true?.. There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world and how can you say that as a whole we dont? .. The days of the Ottamon empire the Islamic world made the greatest leaps in science, of, alchemy, astronomy, art and government of its few centuries. Brought alchemy out of the realms of magic into fact. Lived in peace with Jews and Christians (unlike today)..

As I told you, I don't deny this and I know by personal experience that someone calling themselves muslim can be very open minded and non-judgemental.

However, you cannot with a straight face point to any islamic nation and tell me that it is a haven for freedom of thought. Your particular interpretation of islam is far from the most predominant interpretation in the world.

I am amazed every time a liberal muslim steps forward to defend islam in general as a religion of love and enlightenment when the spotlight is put on atrocities in islamic countries. As full of love and enlightenment they are, they never bring themselves to condemn these atrocities (I'm saying this after following countless public debates where I live). Why can't one criticize these parts of islam without critcizing islam as a whole? It's very similar to how jews interpret all criticism of Israel as anti-semitism.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenemesis
Stranger

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 110
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: muhurgle]
    #2320735 - 02/10/04 08:20 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

You are right, there are many that I can criticize, Iraq is one, Afghanistan.. but your criticism before was of the Islamic world as a whole .. as a whole, as in, general, the teachings are contrary to what is going on and the evidence of that is clear in many parts and in the times past. I condemn the atrocities of Saddam, the atrocities of the Taliban and the extremism which goes on yet is contrary to the teachings of the Quran. I see the problems but to say that as a whole it is not true, is very narrow minded. Look at how it is at its best, and condemn where it is not, and the statistics support it on a whole(what I said about the way of life in general in my last reply). Hope that more of the good will follow, and not the evil. Saddam is an example, he placed a Islamic front to his regiem, yet no sane Muslim could call him within the pale of Islam, he put up the front to appeal to the Shii'tes in the country, he saw power in it.. He tortured Muslims, he prayed on TV for show, thats the only time in his lifetime and asked for the Quran to be written in blood(which is blasphemese)! Do I not condemn that? .. and say, look, what he is doing is wrong, it goes against Islam, it goes against the teachings.. As a whole see what it is at its best, the way it should. Thats why I refer to the days of the Prophet and the Ottamon empire. Those which are condemnable are few, and to say that what you percieve as the most predominant interpration in the world is far from mine, and you speak of open mindnedness. And the best scholars and leaders in the Muslim world of our time condemn the acts of Saddam and the Taliban .. yet the media does not show this, the media does not show alot of things posistive, they are still selective about showing afro-americans crimes in the USA .. have you seen Bowling for Columbine? .. I don't know where you are drawing your image of Islam from but it is far from the teachings and what should be followed. Get yourself a copy of the Hadiths, the Quran, for one who I believe doesn't know much Islam you claim to see it alot better.


--------------------
May Peace and fellicity smile on those who seek it.

Edited by nemesis (02/10/04 08:24 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: nemesis]
    #2320936 - 02/10/04 10:24 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

You are demonstrating my point perfectly. My criticism was not of the islamic world as a whole, but rather of parts of it (although a majority of it as far as I can tell). Why the need to knee-jerk and interpret this as a criticism of you and your personal beliefs? This is a defense mechanism of organised religion.

Also, I don't understand why you bring up Saddam Hussein as an example. From what I understand Iraq was one of the most secular islamic states (if it even could be called that).

I don't know where you are drawing your image of Islam from but it is far from the teachings and what should be followed. Get yourself a copy of the Hadiths, the Quran, for one who I believe doesn't know much Islam you claim to see it alot better.

I know this is difficult to understand, but I do not have a beef with your specific interpretation of islam. However, that something is 'far from the teachings' and 'what should be followed' is your personal opinion. Everybody have their opinion of 'what should be followed'. That's just the nature of religions basing their beliefs on interpretations of some scripture.

Please take some time to read the Amnesty 2003 reports on these select islamic countries (there are more) and then tell me how love, freedom of thought and enlightenment is predominant in the islamic world: Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Syria, UAE, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, Sudan, Yemen, Bangladesh.

Of course these countries are practising islam 'far from the teachings' in your opinion, but who made you the arbiter of offical islamic interpretation? Just to make it clear again, I do not criticize your personal interpretation of islam. My original point was this; if people who subscribe to your interpretation of islam would openly condemn atrocities performed in the name of islam in countries like these (and in my experience this almost never happens, there is always some lame carpet shoveling), it would reflect better upon islam as a whole.

Sorry to stray off topic btw.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDroz
Love of Life
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Floorida
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: silversoul7]
    #2321010 - 02/10/04 11:56 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I will just let the world fall to pieces, even though I could do something about it. Did you know Osama was hired to destroy the twin towers just so they could rebuild it? There are many tests played out on mankind. The future has already came and gone. The implants are already there. In most people atleast. And the future... well the future is ugly and so is the past. Forget the ugly things and still work on what you want. There will be no end to the illuminati. Not for a while atleast. The illuminati will destroy themselves.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: Droz]
    #2321626 - 02/10/04 03:02 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

"I will just let the world fall to pieces, even though I could do something about it."

please tell those who wish to not let it fall to pieces WHAT THEY CAN DO ABOUT IT if you're not going to do anything.. "I could do something about it."

What action might that be?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenemesis
Stranger

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 110
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: The Cold, Hard Truth [Re: Strumpling]
    #2360170 - 02/20/04 03:45 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry for the very late reply, I don't get much time to post. I agree and sorry if my last reply implied that. I took the time to read those amnesty reports, I found them informative and some shocking but also some misrepresented. Your right if the whole Muslim world would openly condemn such atrocities it would be far better but as any nation there will be those who will "trip over the truth, and pick themselves up" (- Whinston Churchill) .. The teachings are clear, the Prophet said, ' I have left a straight white path. '
and .. 'My ummah will split up into 73 ummah, of which one will be succesful.'

In Yemen, they drink out of pure gold cups, while drinking out of vessels of gold is forbidden, these are the leaders of the nation. Some actions taken in countries on those reports are examples of extremism .. The Prophet prohibitted such extremism, 'Do not be extremistist but stay to a middlecourse.'

The freedom of expression supressd, by these reports, is not very clear in all of the countries. "Let there be no compulsion in religion." (Quran) .. for example, the man who was exiled, would have been exiled for a reason, it is under Islamic law acceptable and a fair practise for a crime. If it was unjust, May they get what they deserve. I do not deny that freedom of thought crimes occur in the Muslim world, it is sad that some have abadonend the teachings of the Quran and Prophet, today there are non-Arabs who know the Quran better :P .. What I mean't by my last replies is take a look at the greatest times of Islam should reflect on what Islam stands for, look at Ottamon occupied Spain, where the three faiths all held festivels, lived together in peace and propserity. Tolerance for other beliefs, ideals and practises is a Muslim principle. And The Qisas, law of equality, while Islamic law might seem barbaric, its implementation throught time has been effective and benefecial. It has to be understood from the context of a nation built on Islam.
One article explains it well-
http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/morearticles/headlines.pl?4

Well your right this is my opinion but I can also say that it is the view of most of the predominant Muslim world. And as I've already said, The Prophetic teaching, 'The furtherest from God on the Day of Judgement will be the tyranical leader.' Inshallah, may they get what they deserve.

Quote:

then tell me how love, freedom of thought and enlightenment is predominant in the islamic world




Well I would tend to disagree with your assesment. While Amnesty goes around the World assesing from their point of view they misrepresent some. While their actions are comendable they can't accurately represent every culture but I hope they shed better light on the atrocities occuring. But the general ummah has the lowest alcohol consumption rates in the world, lowest crime, lowest murder, lowest sexual harrasment, lowest suicide and highest charity rates. The Muslims were one nation for seven centuries and now the World is taking a turn for the worse.

You are right, such unjust actions must be condemned by Muslims!
The world of today is in a weak state, May God guide us to peace, tolerance and love. I hope that justice prevails. May peace be with you, Seeker of truth.


--------------------
May Peace and fellicity smile on those who seek it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Al Haq (The Truth)
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Zahid 6,823 60 08/24/02 03:17 PM
by Danimal
* What is the truth behind Disney? tekramrepus 2,381 18 06/20/03 06:58 AM
by champ
* Islam, religion of peace?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Anonymous 8,351 83 04/06/03 04:41 PM
by Anonymous
* Rome slams Jewish, Christian, and Islamic mysticism
( 1 2 all )
Zahid 2,983 22 06/30/04 03:31 PM
by Huehuecoyotl
* The passion of the Christ
( 1 2 3 all )
flowstone 4,014 51 04/02/05 05:03 PM
by JCoke
* Cold Turkey by Kurt Vonnegut , May 12, '04 by _In These Times_ CosmicJokeM 805 11 04/30/05 08:11 PM
by Dark_Star
* Goodbye New York or Nuclear Jihad cleaner 753 8 09/19/03 12:29 PM
by Strumpling
* The Official Truth Thread - No jokes please!
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
World Spirit 18,789 178 10/31/02 12:23 AM
by Strumpling

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
5,026 topic views. 1 members, 10 guests and 22 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.033 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 14 queries.