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Offlinezzripz
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23074472 - 04/02/16 10:25 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I'll have to increase my fee because undercharging elicits a kind of mild contempt because THEY tend to overcharge!




...of course this 'problem' would only worry those with money. The rest of us 'peasants' would welcome FREE like what many indigenous healers have provided, and not have to have extra counseling because of 'mild-contempt-disorder'?

Quote:

In 2008, Masson became a Director of Voiceless, the animal protection institute.





But of course he is not some lone voice:
Quote:

Psychology and Psychotherapy: How Much Is Evidence-Based?

Psychoanalysis
Psychoanalysis is a castle built on sand. Investigation has shown that Freud falsified or fabricated the details of every case he used to build his theory. His approach was not scientific. He never tested his ideas with experiments that might have falsified his beliefs, and he ignored facts that contradicted his beliefs. Many of his supposed original ideas came from other authors. How did he “discover” the Oedipus complex when none of his patients ever suggested they had such a problem? The answer is in a letter he wrote to a friend saying, “I found in myself a constant love for my mother, and jealousy of my father. I now consider this to be a universal event in early childhood.” Talk about projection and confirmation bias!

When tested, psychoanalysis was shown to be less effective than placebo. Its theories have been disproven, and no reasonable scientist or practitioner takes it seriously today. Yet it persists in popular opinion as one of the primary canons of practicing psychology.





When money comes into the equation, especially in THIS culture which worships profit as god, then when we are dealing with something as complex and serpentine as people thoughts and feelings then this is ripe for a corrupt business. The therapist will be wanting to make a living
As long as these therapists in the wannabe a psychedelic therapist industry continue their protestations against 'recreational tripping'--most of which IS free--then they are showing support for a culture which wages a VERY destructive so-called war on drugs which includes war on psychedelic users who do not seek therapists.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: zzripz]
    #23075014 - 04/02/16 01:36 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

The articles against the efficacy of Psychoanalysis are very old, and there are some real issues with people seeing their analyst 3 times a week for over a decade Especially when the process has been applied to something like 'curing' homosexuality! (see Homosexuality by Charles Socarides). I endeavor to relieve or eliminate symptoms in as few as 2-3 sessions, and I can witness the resolution while the client is still in the therapy chair. When asked to elicit the symptoms, to bring up the negative feelings, they cannot. Every client is not a complete success obviously, but I am always relieved in my own way when I have helped. There are no guarantees in life, not even with a liver transplant costing half a million dollars. But I always give clients my full attention. I cannot vouch for others.

I worked for the nation's 4th largest school system for 28 years (and would still be working if federal funding had not been discontinued). The adolescents and their families saw me in individual, group, and family counseling sessions, with no limit, for FREE - if you ignore the taxes that every American pays into the school systems. I stayed very late at night with emergencies of familial abandonment or suicidal ideation, conducted parenting groups at night, took ambulance rides to hospitals with self-mutilators who had cut too deeply, with drug overdoses, and those with seizure disorders - without any extra remuneration. It was part of the position as TRUST Specialist. All of those kids and adults got the same level of treatment from me as they would have if they had seen me privately.

I have to work like everyone else, and my skills are valuable. Does it make any sense to you how or why I would invite people to my home for FREE therapy at my expense? Your indigenous healers have as many frauds among their ranks as those people who charge exorbitant fees for something they have minimal training of and no legitimate license to practice mental health counseling/therapy. Some of those indigenous healers have outright killed patrons with their treatments. None of the patrons take a treatment and not leave a 'donation.' The guided tours exact significant fees for the package deals so I don't know who in particular you are referring to. In Miami, some self-proclaimed Ayahuascera charges $100 each in some apartment, and half the time people only get sick, not psychedelic. Why should anyone expect to receive something from someone else without some symbiosis occurring? I get my share of parasites who use up their FREE consultation time and then some, and then promise to pay me next time. I'm 62 years old and know a bum when I meet one. This feeling of entitlement is a pathological condition, sociopathic in most cases and narcissistic in those who are not sociopathic. Sometimes it's both!

You should be welcoming the potential for psychedelic psychotherapy, since it is a matter of psychotherapy being facilitated by the adjunct use of psychedelics. It is not about psychotherapists monopolizing psychedelics. Nobody will be taking your illicit drugs out of your mouth, but clearly not everyone who uses psychedelics is a psychotherapist. Psychotherapy is an art which like all arts requires certain talents. I just read this article today. Educate yourself with it. I have contacted Rick Doblin on LinkedIn - just in case training commences before I'm way too old. Rick and I are the same age and discovered LSD the same year.

http://www.alternet.org/drugs/meet-rick-doblin-psychedelic-who-has-expanded-boundaries-medicine


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23075895 - 04/02/16 05:21 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The articles against the efficacy of Psychoanalysis are very old, and there are some real issues with people seeing their analyst 3 times a week for over a decade Especially when the process has been applied to something like 'curing' homosexuality! (see Homosexuality by Charles Socarides). I endeavor to relieve or eliminate symptoms in as few as 2-3 sessions, and I can witness the resolution while the client is still in the therapy chair. When asked to elicit the symptoms, to bring up the negative feelings, they cannot. Every client is not a complete success obviously, but I am always relieved in my own way when I have helped. There are no guarantees in life, not even with a liver transplant costing half a million dollars. But I always give clients my full attention. I cannot vouch for others.




Are you suggesting homosexuality is an illness with symptoms which you can cure?

Quote:

I have to work like everyone else, and my skills are valuable. Does it make any sense to you how or why I would invite people to my home for FREE therapy at my expense? Your indigenous healers have as many frauds among their ranks as those people who charge exorbitant fees for something they have minimal training of and no legitimate license to practice mental health counseling/therapy.




Native American traditional call people who charge for psychological and spiritual healing plastic shamans and new age frauds. This is usually meaning those usually white people who dress like the 'natives' and pretend to be part of a certain native peoples tradition, and then charge money

This thread is talking about when therapists use psychedelics as part of their therapy. WHy should training with letters after your name mean that your guidance would be as good as a loving friend, or an individual who opens up to their experience?
If YOu had 'educated yourself' by reading Against Therapy and the link I linked then you would read those who did not really rate training in psychotherapy or psychiatry and being the end and be all. And also don't seem to get that when money becomes involved things can change, as they have in biomedical psychiatry which has become utterly corrupt because of its relationship with the pharmaceutical industry.

I would rather respect any therapist who encouraged recreational tripping as valid as psychedelic therapy, and to be part of the activism to decriminalize the use of psychedelics for all people.

When you pay, and the payment is expensive you expect a 'result' and the person wants to keep a certain reputation, and like said a lot of corruption can stem from such powerplay

I am not exactly saying 'stop! do not allow psychedelic therapy!'. I have already said more than once that of course it can do good for those who could afford it...

Doblin: ' Doblin argues, we don’t really want all drugs to be available to everybody all the time. Same as with alcohol, regulation will be needed, but a smarter one. Doblin is a proponent of the “drug driver’s license” concept, which was also championed by Leary back in the 1960s. It follows the notion that, like guns and cars, drugs are tools which can be used or abused. In the same way that a person needs to get a license to drive a car or own a gun to insure his safety and the safety of others, that person will have to go through a certain kind of training to get a license to use a certain drug. More knowledgeable drug users, who were taught to use drugs in a safer, more intelligent way, should lead to decreased drug casualties. Also, Doblin argues, since violating the terms of a drug license would lead to its retrieval, users will have more to lose and be more careful not to abuse drugs. “It won’t make the black market disappear, but it will make it smaller, which will make it more difficult to obtain drugs illegally. It might make people think twice before they do things which will put their license at risk,” he says. ' here

Whose the 'we'?? He means the crowd he is with--THE therapeutics. As far as I am aware alcohol doesn't grow freely on fields, last time I looked anyhow or grow on trees, though I have seen many wasps getting pissed on over ripe pears on a tree in my time

A drug driver license? WTF? Is he meaning for magic mushrooms? And he is likening them to guns. Is he ON drugs...? the wrong kind? No, sorry, that is whack and the kind of elitism I challenge--that attitude which is limited hangout and supports continuation of war on drugs


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #23076103 - 04/02/16 06:18 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

WHy should training with letters after your name mean that your guidance would be as good as a loving friend, or an individual who opens up to their experience?

For the same damn reason you wouldn't allow your loving mommy or daddy to perform surgery on you! They're probably not trained and tested, the passing of which qualifies them to be physicians and perhaps with additional testing, board certified surgeons! Moreover, your parents OR your loving friends, cannot be clinical with you. If you do not understand 'ethics & boundaries' as compromising clinical objectivity, and ALL you can see is that you don't like rules or laws, then you will not WANT to understand regulation. I cannot speak to being a Roadman at a Peyote mitote - that is not my culture. If it brings drunks to sobriety or cures spiritual crises, far out! I am not into power or monopolization of goods. I'm into qualified people who know what they're doing when it comes to guiding people, and doing therapy without credentials is only slightly less dangerous than doing medicine, dentistry, or pharmacology without requisite credentials. It's illegal because it's irresponsible and dangerous to society.

I'm not an architect or a general contractor, but the construction of buildings I witnessed in Nigeria had me exclaiming "Holy fucking shit" more times than I can remember. It was like imperfect Bizzaro World in DC Superman comics. In Miami we have unlicensed assholes doing dentistry, medicine, Botox® and orthodontia out of their garages. There was a transvestite student from my former middle school who got older and [s]he was injecting a combination of non-sterile industrial chemicals (like automobile tire-inflator) into paying customers asses to create cheap 'Brazilian butts.' [S]He killed someone as a result and was given a prison sentence, but wanted to "put the whole thing behind me". :lol:  http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-toxic-tush-release-hearing-20150109-story.html Another one of my former counselees is having her braces done by a dental hygienist privately on the side. Frauds are fucked up and their clients are just plain stupid. Caveat Emptor!

None of this is going to impact you or me growing some fungus for home use. Implementing psychedelics in a clinical capacity is HUGE! (I don't mean to sound like Drumpf). It means recognizing a very important set of human behaviors which implement naturally occurring, semi-synthetic, or even synthetic substances for the enhanced health and well-being of people INSTEAD of relegating these behaviors to psychopathology and criminality. Sandoz® you might recall, was the 'big-pharma' in which Dr. Albert Hofmann was employed when he discovered LSD-25, and where he later analyzed and synthetically created Psilocybin (I am happy to report to have tried Sandoz® Psilocybin on a few occasions, but my older college roommate used to get baggies of 200 LSD pills)!  I'm not going to complain if they or another pharmaceutical firm begins to manufacture all the major psychedelics. Chances are, some of those will find their way into the Dark Net or the streets again.



Edited by MarkostheGnostic (04/02/16 06:29 PM)


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InvisibleBayerPhi
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23076286 - 04/02/16 07:19 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Psychedelics are not for everyone. Period.
Dissociatives even more so. (Which were more beneficial to me for myself than a psych ever was, similar to Asante; but he's moved on to sacramental practice with them now which is where I am with psych use.)

I couldn't imagine giving my mother a psych at her age and expect her to come out of it feeling whole. Instead it would shatter her whole life's reality, which at her age, is now her foundation and could only do harm. Even with professional guidance, I see only psych-wards as an effect of using psychedelic junctioned therapy for people like her, and they are the majority common people--your average church goer. Mary J is as close to a psych that she'll ever know until death.
Like Morpheus said, and I summarize, 'we don't wake them past a certain age.'
So for them, MDMA all. the. way.  Which is coming forth in our life time, Hallelujah! Finally, it may be possible for our Veterans can find peace after being a chess piece.

Thus we have people like Markos practicing in therapy without it, whether it is legal or illegal.

Just remember, as the Native American leaders once said, "Beware of the Plastic Shaman."--As Markos has given many examples of.
Even those of native origin initiated into Mystical Vocation are trained intensively and thoroughly. Typically only 1 on 1, 'destined' as they say. Graduate School in some professions, in some areas are still treated this way. Although I must say it too is on a serious decline and becoming like the rest of Higher Education--a 'trained' employee manufacturer.


I know myself haven't gone through any puberty rites; dancing around with a gloves full of bullet ants, or purposely living through an intense all night deliriant trip. These things are treated instead as passages to a higher knowledge/manhood, and not a recreation pursuit.


--------------------
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Edited by BayerPhi (04/02/16 07:24 PM)


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: BayerPhi]
    #23076584 - 04/02/16 08:50 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


This thread is talking about when therapists use psychedelics as part of their therapy. WHy should training with letters after your name mean that your guidance would be as good as a loving friend, or an individual who opens up to their experience?




In addition to what Markos said, not everyone has a loving friend willing to guide them, especially the marginalized, emotionally broken and mentally ill. I was once lucky enough to receive help from a caring friend during a difficult time in my life, but now that friend is busy with other things and if I wanted similar assistance I wouldn't know where to turn. The advantage of having professionals is they are always there to turn to and you don't need to worry about imposing on them or being a burden because they are being compensated for their time.

Of course, that is all assuming you are lucky enough to find a therapist who actually has the skills to provide the care you need (which may be a rare thing) but at least the potential is there. It's unfortunate we live in a society that worships money, because that opens up the gates to corruption in virtually every field, but that's how things are right now.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


Edited by Peyote Road (04/02/16 08:52 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: BayerPhi]
    #23077695 - 04/03/16 03:05 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BayerPhi said:
Psychedelics are not for everyone. Period.
Dissociatives even more so. (Which were more beneficial to me for myself than a psych ever was, similar to Asante; but he's moved on to sacramental practice with them now which is where I am with psych use.)

I couldn't imagine giving my mother a psych at her age and expect her to come out of it feeling whole. Instead it would shatter her whole life's reality, which at her age, is now her foundation and could only do harm. Even with professional guidance, I see only psych-wards as an effect of using psychedelic junctioned therapy for people like her, and they are the majority common people--your average church goer. Mary J is as close to a psych that she'll ever know until death.
Like Morpheus said, and I summarize, 'we don't wake them past a certain age.'
So for them, MDMA all. the. way.  Which is coming forth in our life time, Hallelujah! Finally, it may be possible for our Veterans can find peace after being a chess piece.

Thus we have people like Markos practicing in therapy without it, whether it is legal or illegal.

Just remember, as the Native American leaders once said, "Beware of the Plastic Shaman."--As Markos has given many examples of.
Even those of native origin initiated into Mystical Vocation are trained intensively and thoroughly. Typically only 1 on 1, 'destined' as they say. Graduate School in some professions, in some areas are still treated this way. Although I must say it too is on a serious decline and becoming like the rest of Higher Education--a 'trained' employee manufacturer.


I know myself haven't gone through any puberty rites; dancing around with a gloves full of bullet ants, or purposely living through an intense all night deliriant trip. These things are treated instead as passages to a higher knowledge/manhood, and not a recreation pursuit.




How old is your mom? You start an older person off gradually. Check out this mom on mushrooms below. She's younger than I am.

http://dangerousminds.net/comments/watch_a_61-year-old_mom_take_shrooms_for_the_first_time_and_reconnect_with_


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23077964 - 04/03/16 07:16 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

WHy should training with letters after your name mean that your guidance would be as good as a loving friend, or an individual who opens up to their experience?

For the same damn reason you wouldn't allow your loving mommy or daddy to perform surgery on you! They're probably not trained and tested, the passing of which qualifies them to be physicians and perhaps with additional testing, board certified surgeons! Moreover, your parents OR your loving friends, cannot be clinical with you. [emphasis mine]
...I cannot speak to being a Roadman at a Peyote mitote - that is not my culture. If it brings drunks to sobriety or cures spiritual crises, far out! I am not into power or monopolization of goods. I'm into qualified people who know what they're doing when it comes to guiding people, and doing therapy without credentials is only slightly less dangerous than doing medicine, dentistry, or pharmacology without requisite credentials. It's illegal because it's irresponsible and dangerous to society.




Such an attitude as that is exactly what I am questioning and warning about. Psychotherapy is not medical science which surgery is trained in. You 'godamning, and trying to impose your power does not make it any less so. You are entitled to your opinion, but at the end of the day that is all it is. I would sooner listent to the likes of Jeffrey Masson, and Szasz etc who undermine the power-dominance therapists seems to assume!
The psycho-the-rapist has a lot of power: the 'client' reveals so much about themselves, the therapist reveals very little; You pay them money. And they are thinking they are surgeons :tongue: So it is a very strong power dynamic

In the article you said I should read and 'educate' myself, Rick Doblin claims he is wanting to re liven a similar past like ancient Greece where there were the Eleusinian Mysteries which Pythagoras and Plato even attended and imbibed some mysterious psychedelic potion. Well what he doesn't say is how using the drink they drank 'recreationally' would get you into serious sht:
Quote:


            All were forbidden by penalty of death to tell what they’d seen. According to Carl A.P. Ruck, co-author with R. Gordon Wasson of The Road to Eleusis (1978), “Even a poet could only say that he had seen the beginning and the end of life and known that they were one, something given by God. The division between earth and sky melted into a pillar of light.” Of course, some couldn’t hold their tongues about such a marvel. A scandal ensued when some aristocratic Athenians began celebrating the Mysteries at dinner parties in their homes with groups of  “drunken” revelers. Socrates himself was tried and condemned for using the sacred brew recreationally. (Such a profanation of the holy potion might have a modern-day parallel in the spilling of LSD into the well water of the mass media and youth culture during the early Sixties). A Brief Cultural History of Tripping




Dan Russell in his book Shamanism and the Drug Propaganda: The Birth of Patriarchy and the Drug War, reveals how this suppression of the people having access to psychedelics didn't just begin in the 1960s but has been the case throughout patriarchal history! Summarized, the powers that be do not want their slaves having access to consciousness-changing vegetation.

So the purpose of this thread is to undermine this ongoing power dynamic, and encourage all people to see psychedelics and experience in a different way


Edited by zzripz (04/03/16 07:21 AM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: BayerPhi]
    #23077971 - 04/03/16 07:26 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I know myself haven't gone through any puberty rites; dancing around with a gloves full of bullet ants, or purposely living through an intense all night deliriant trip. These things are treated instead as passages to a higher knowledge/manhood, and not a recreation pursuit.




And I am sure there would be a lot of pressure to do things like that and not to refuse!
I am really questioning all traditional power dyanmics, and this must include 'the shaman' too. The shaman or medicine man had/has GREAT power and authority. is that good?


Edited by zzripz (04/03/16 07:26 AM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23077981 - 04/03/16 07:36 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Quote:


This thread is talking about when therapists use psychedelics as part of their therapy. WHy should training with letters after your name mean that your guidance would be as good as a loving friend, or an individual who opens up to their experience?




In addition to what Markos said, not everyone has a loving friend willing to guide them, especially the marginalized, emotionally broken and mentally ill. I was once lucky enough to receive help from a caring friend during a difficult time in my life, but now that friend is busy with other things and if I wanted similar assistance I wouldn't know where to turn. The advantage of having professionals is they are always there to turn to and you don't need to worry about imposing on them or being a burden because they are being compensated for their time.

Of course, that is all assuming you are lucky enough to find a therapist who actually has the skills to provide the care you need (which may be a rare thing) but at least the potential is there. It's unfortunate we live in a society that worships money, because that opens up the gates to corruption in virtually every field, but that's how things are right now.




And also lucky enough to have the amount of money you would need for psychedelic therapy...!:eek:

The thing is, there is always free information, and your own freedom to choose. Who are you gonna listen to? I have watched some videos lately where these people are claiming to take mega amounts of grams of psychedelic mushrooms. Some quote Mckenna as their influence for their 'heroic dose'. I understand it is their choice, but their attitude is that any 'low dose' is inferior. I question that.

This exploration must also have to look at the whole mythology behind such attitudes---everything. The whole idea of the 'hero' is coming from the patriarchal monomyth of Jung and Campbell and is part of the patriarchal stream of thinking


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: zzripz]
    #23078979 - 04/03/16 02:18 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

the 'client' reveals so much about themselves, the therapist reveals very little; You pay them money. And they are thinking they are surgeons :tongue: So it is a very strong power dynamic


This is a fearful statement, and it is only true for analysts for the most part. Analysts do no respond to personal questions. Their silence serves as a highlighting of the question - why it was asked, what is the nature of the transference (is the client trying to connect as friend, mentee, child-to-parent, etc.). It is a technique which IS one sided, but you would have to understand the purpose of it based on the transference phenomena. As for me, my particular technique doesn't allow very much time for a client to even ask me anything, but in the introduction, and perhaps in the aftermath of a session, I practice what is called 'counselor transparency,' which does not mean revealing all manner of intimate secrets, but I use my own life experiences when they serve to illustrate or illuminate something in the client's life.

Incidentally, I do not know any counselors, therapists, analysts, clinical social workers, or even psychiatrists who think of themselves as surgeons. Well, I have used the metaphor of 'psychic surgery,' sans the chicken guts, :lol: but in the sense of removing 'a thorn in one's side,' a psychic 'barb' so-to-speak which is stuck in the unconscious for years and which 'festers' and produces all manner of physical and psychological symptoms. But this is metaphorical. People appear to have something alien lodged in their psyches, and that thing can be removed.

As for Eleusis - why would Doblin mention psychedelics in a recreational vein in the first place? He admits to being in possession of some 960 gms of a kilo of MDMA that was produced NOT under any governmental sanction. If it wasn't a sanctioned production, it would be considered recreational and illegal. But people might take MDMA and crank up Moby or Paul Oakenfold, but soon realize that they are pouring out their very souls to another person. It very quickly becomes apparent that something therapeutic is going on even if the shallow conscious intention was to 'have fun.'

Eleusis was so secret that all we have today is educated speculation on the psychedelic Kykeon. Revealing the secrets of Eleusis was punishable by death! But like atheism, violation of its sacred rites of Demeter and Peresphone was a matter of profaning the sacred. It was therapy but it was also sacred ritual. Doblin's work is very important. You have some kind of complex about 'Patriarchy' AS IF it is a masculine conspiracy, which begs the question about your own Patriarchal-Matriarchal identity issues. But 'Patriarchy,' if you read Erich Neumann, a Jungian writer who has elucidated human development on a historical and global level, has produced a very credible scheme of the process of Individuation and development away from the maternal fold. Jean Gebser's The Ever-Present Origin may also have something significant to add. Ken Wilber certainly does, and he gleaned a lot from Gebser's work. I'm familiar with Szasz, but more conversant with R.D. Laing who Szasz based his opinion on. .

Of course we all have opinions, and your opinion is based on projections you have of 'therapists,' (AS IF they are all corrupted by power motives), which is to say, you get into complexes -  psychological bubbles wherein you will not allow new data in to modify and expand your position, which would then hopefully burst the walls of said complex. The same with your perseveration about Patriarchy. Speaking for myself, I take a permissive rather than an authoritative position most of the time, and this is because I have very limited power-motives in my personality. In one idiom, my Manipura chakra is not fully-functioning because that makes for a more pronounced ego. In a Jungian idiom using myth, I have very little Ares (or Mars), the warrior archetype informing my personality. (There is also very little Zeus archetype as I have never been a womanizer or wanted to be a father - paternalistic. There is considerable Hermes about me, Apollo, Dionysus, and a bit of Hephaestus about me). I see myself as a guide, as Hermes-Mercury is, showing people both celestial and underworldly realms. My doctoral dissertation was essentially about the psychology of the caduceus of Hermes-Mercury - the chakra motives.

So in myself, aside from the doctor-patient dynamic (after all, clients have sought me out for assistance), I do not behave in a superior manner. One of my most recent clients was a physician who was also talented in a couple of other areas - a most impressive guy to me. Your prejudice against therapists reveals your own resentment against power, and by extension, Patriarchy. I dare say your whole pro-Goddess, anti-Patriarchal trip is supported and motivated by an issue which could best be investigated by analysis or hypnoanalysis. Your very preoccupation on this theme speaks to me more loudly than your political position regarding the regulation of pharmaceutical psychedelics. Laws and rules just scream power-control-Patriarchy to you don't they? Whatever your socio-cultural-political opinions are, they are based on something far simpler and emotion-charged. But you are absolutely correct - this is all just my opinion.


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (04/03/16 02:25 PM)


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Invisiblefilthyknees
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23079269 - 04/03/16 04:08 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Because the term fun expert on a buisness card would look funny.

Tripping for fun isn't economically viable.

It costs more for A 6pack than to diy grow a pound of mushrooms (128 eighth doses)


--------------------
But if you're in a hurry, and really got to go
If you're in a hurry, might have to find out slow
That it's one thing to try and another to fly
You get there quicker just a step at a time
It's one thing to bark, another to bite
The show ain't over till you pack up at night


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23081406 - 04/04/16 07:08 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I practice what is called 'counselor transparency,' which does not mean revealing all manner of intimate secrets, but I use my own life experiences when they serve to illustrate or illuminate something in the client's life.




Exactly, whereas the client often does.

Quote:

You have some kind of complex about 'Patriarchy' AS IF it is a masculine conspiracy, which begs the question about your own Patriarchal-Matriarchal identity issues. But 'Patriarchy,' if you read Erich Neumann, a Jungian writer who has elucidated human development on a historical and global level, has produced a very credible scheme of the process of Individuation and development away from the maternal fold. Jean Gebser's The Ever-Present Origin may also have something significant to add. Ken Wilber certainly does, and he gleaned a lot from Gebser's work. I'm familiar with Szasz, but more conversant with R.D. Laing who Szasz based his opinion on. .




Of course it is a male conspiracy! it is patriarchal males taking the power over women, other males who are not patriarchally-minded, and nature.
Is comical how all your sources you claim agree with you are male and think the same way :strokebeard:

Quote:

Patriarchy: ...is a social system in which males hold primary power, predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property. In the domain of the family, fathers or father-figures hold authority over women and children. Some patriarchal societies are also patrilineal, meaning that property and title are inherited by the male lineage and descent is reckoned exclusively through the male line, sometimes to the point where significantly more distant male relatives take precedence over female relatives.





Quote:


conspiracy (n.) Look up conspiracy at Dictionary.com
    mid-14c., from Anglo-French conspiracie, Old French conspiracie "conspiracy, plot," from Latin conspirationem (nominative conspiratio) "agreement, union, unanimity," noun of action from conspirare (see conspire); earlier in same sense was conspiration (early 14c.), from French conspiration (13c.), from Latin conspirationem. An Old English word for it was facengecwis. As a term in law, from 1863. Conspiracy theory is from 1909.




I, so you judge, have a complex about the patriarchy, but you apparently have a clean bill of health, about your own lack of understanding regarding how I feel about this. Amazin isn't it? I spose if I came to you for 'therapy' you'd hyponotize me to think like you ey? That is the conspiracy I am referring to.
Quote:



Of course we all have opinions, and your opinion is based on projections you have of 'therapists,' (AS IF they are all corrupted by power motives), which is to say, you get into complexes -  psychological bubbles wherein you will not allow new data in to modify and expand your position, which would then hopefully burst the walls of said complex.




You do not listen MarkostheGnostic. I said right from beginning, that I am not against psychedelic therapy. What I am exposing is those therapists who claim recreational psychedelic is inferior, and who are not seemingly aware of the political reality of a patriarchal culture, which you are not. The power dynamics and so on. So your opinion is based on ignore-ance. You pathologize any opinions which contradict your own. THAT is what I uncover. That is the very mental illness myth.
Quote:


Speaking for myself, I take a permissive rather than an authoritative position most of the time, and this is because I have very limited power-motives in my personality.




According to your own opinion, not necessarily another's opinion of your character.
Quote:


In one idiom, my Manipura chakra is not fully-functioning because that makes for a more pronounced ego. In a Jungian idiom using myth, I have very little Ares (or Mars), the warrior archetype informing my personality. (There is also very little Zeus archetype as I have never been a womanizer or wanted to be a father - paternalistic. There is considerable Hermes about me, Apollo, Dionysus, and a bit of Hephaestus about me). I see myself as a guide, as Hermes-Mercury is, showing people both celestial and underworldly realms. My doctoral dissertation was essentially about the psychology of the caduceus of Hermes-Mercury - the chakra motives.




You speak about all that like it is scientific. it is not. I do not agree with all that. With your interpretation and certainties.

Quote:

So in myself, aside from the doctor-patient dynamic (after all, clients have sought me out for assistance), I do not behave in a superior manner.




...is that so? maybe it is because you believe and have just pro-nounced it...?

Quote:

Your prejudice against therapists reveals your own resentment against power, and by extension, Patriarchy. I dare say your whole pro-Goddess, anti-Patriarchal trip is supported and motivated by an issue which could best be investigated by analysis or hypnoanalysis. Your very preoccupation on this theme speaks to me more loudly than your political position regarding the regulation of pharmaceutical psychedelics. Laws and rules just scream power-control-Patriarchy to you don't they? Whatever your socio-cultural-political opinions are, they are based on something far simpler and emotion-charged. But you are absolutely correct - this is all just my opinion.





Exactly!


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Invisiblehowsyournaggerdoin
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: zzripz]
    #23081469 - 04/04/16 08:07 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

I dont agree with you. Patriachy doesnt exist. Its just a scapegoat for women to blame all their problems on.

On topic :

People who use it for therapeutic reasons might think that they are using it for higher reasons. So in their mind the recreational users are abusing it "just to have some fun". It also doesnt help that recreational drug use has a very bad stigma in general.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: howsyournaggerdoin]
    #23081822 - 04/04/16 11:33 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

howsyournaggerdoin said:
I dont agree with you. Patriachy doesnt exist. Its just a scapegoat for women to blame all their problems on.

On topic :

People who use it for therapeutic reasons might think that they are using it for higher reasons. So in their mind the recreational users are abusing it "just to have some fun". It also doesnt help that recreational drug use has a very bad stigma in general.




This a thread I began, and being aware of and talking about the patriarchy regarding this subject is not off-topic, in fact it is central to understanding it, and as for your opinion regarding their not even being a patriarchy, myself and others including other women do not share such an absurd view, and it is not even worth challenging.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: zzripz]
    #23082248 - 04/04/16 02:11 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

You do not listen MarkostheGnostic. I said right from beginning, that I am not against psychedelic therapy. What I am exposing is those therapists who claim recreational psychedelic is inferior, and who are not seemingly aware of the political reality of a patriarchal culture, which you are not. The power dynamics and so on. So your opinion is based on ignore-ance. You pathologize any opinions which contradict your own. THAT is what I uncover. That is the very mental illness myth.

Oh bullshit on that. I've been voting since 1972. Don't presume to tell me what I'm ignorant of. YOU are the one who is obsessed, totally living out of a complex on this. Just by the degree of perseveration on a theme. We all develop complexes, and once they're pointed out, it is our individual duty to deflate them.My wife points out mine, and I'm pointing out your's. I'm going to vote for a woman for the first time in my personal and America's history. She is far far from ideal, but socialism in any form is not going to be tolerated in the USA, so once again it is the lesser of two evils. But this candidate carries a lot of Patriarchal, or more precisely, Masculine values. That is necessary when one has leaders like Putin in the world. One of my childhood friends, a camping and tripping buddy married a republican older woman and now HE is a Conservative asshole who posts shit about President Obama's "weakness" compared to Putin's masculine machismo which he clearly admires. This former friend used to be a 'milk toast' personality, but he of course never saw the 'mother complex' that he was in as a youth, nor the continuation of it into late adulthood with his domineering wife. He has gone back into his Catholic upbringing, and posts pics of Madonnas on Facebook, including the Pieta for his avatar. Mother complex. Even his younger brother once told me that my former friend was a "dead head," but he didn't mean Grateful Dead. He meant that his older brother could not think for himself. This is what happens in the closed system of a complex.

You speak about all that like it is scientific. it is not. I do not agree with all that. With your interpretation and certainties.

See, "scientific" is inaccurate. The better word is systematic, which some of these idioms are. The scientific method developed out of scientia, which simply means knowledge in Latin. Science is NOT the only systematic or logical methodology in the world. Idioms are models, models are provisional until a better model arises. But even incomplete models serve as the basis for praxis. A 1945 (scientific) model of the atom was incomplete by today's standards yet it was sufficient to build an atom bomb with - two different models in fact. Seven years late, the same model was behind a thermonuclear device. But metaphorical models also work in matters of human consciousness, which is not a verity that can be approached scientifically. Its corresponding nervous system can be, but not consciousness itself. Words work best for the change of consciousness.

According to your own opinion, not necessarily another's opinion of your character.

No, I don't make pronouncements based exclusively upon an idealized self-image :lol: but according to the corroboration of those who know me as well, as from feedback from total strangers whom I meet in the intimate relationship of psychotherapy. There is nothing bossy or authoritarian about me. If people regard me with trepidation because I'm in a therapist's role at the time of meeting me, that is a complex of their own which already houses certain preconceptions about what a therapist is like. These are projections which typically fall away, usually within the first few to several minutes after entering the consulting room.

I spose if I came to you for 'therapy' you'd hyponotize me to think like you ey? That is the conspiracy I am referring to.

This is your ignorance about hypnosis. That is not how hypnosis works. One will never accept a suggestion that one does not actively like. Neutral or aversive suggestions will not be accepted. Moreover, one cannot hypnotize whole 'belief' systems. Errors that have been assumed in childhood are finally illuminated for the lies that they are. Complexes are decathected - the negative emotions are released as from a pus-filled abscess, to use a medical metaphor. Most of the work is Regression and release of bad shit. Positive affirmations are suggestions that are finally accepted the opposing emotions have been removed (when they are true - you can't convince an average woman that she is supermodel beautiful, but you can help her to get behind the beauty she does have and finally experience it).

Exactly!

Get over it. This is a self-esteem issue. Probably everyone has it unless they're narcissistic (a real pathology). I saw a handsome, well-heeled (he built a company) athlete who had been suffering since childhood when rich kids insulted him and his parents for their poverty. This guy was not a crying type. When the complex was removed, his eyes wept tears. The obstacle, the lie that was told to him about his 'inferiority' as a child had prevented him from fully experiencing his God-given assets and his success. It left him. His lifetime of nagging self-doubts was over, yet he will probably continue to be a modest and even humble person. Developing complexes is part of being human. Learning to become aware of them and get out of them is all about becoming more balanced and healthier. When an inferiority complex on a national scale after losing WW I, the German people rallied around Hitler whose rhetorical skills and utter bullshit made them feel much better when he turned their feelings of inferiority into inflationary superiority as the "Master Race." HItler and his cronies created a whole new complex out of which no atrocity was too great to perpetrate. That superiority complex assumed extremely psychopathic proportions when the better part of peoples' psyches were suppressed and their Shadow cultivated. The myth of Icarus applies to all of us - fly neither too high (superiority) or too low (inferiority), but like his father Daedalus, fly a 'middle way,' putting the extremes into proportion based on balance. Either extreme in the myth cause one to crash and burn or crash and drown - fire and water - extreme opposites. Your rage about authority is fiery. At the very least you'll "cut your nose to spite your face," but you will reap suffering in some way if one's rage continues.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23082741 - 04/04/16 04:41 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.




Oh jeeez you got me quoting from the Bible, but it is apt, very


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: zzripz]
    #23082816 - 04/04/16 05:04 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

...hmmm so anyhow continuing. this thread was not meant to be some lockout 'debate' between me a therapist markosthegnostic. I wish to share my ideas. if you don't dig em then you don't. Of course you can also share your own ideas etc

I see the problem we face as complex and simple. What thisy here is, this mystery which is life, which includes life, death and regeneration. it is not static, and thus what is complex is dynamically related to simple

Power wielders though try and blind people with complexity, using their own power oppressive lingo etc in order to make you believe they know more than you and they are the 'experts' and sadly many fall for it and this disenfranchises their own power

That is exactly what psychiatrists have been doing. Their sht is not based on medical science at all, just words.

Where I am from we try to cut out BS and try and tell it like it is, and I prefer it that way.
When I say recreational tripping, I am not meaning superficial fun. What do I mean? Well i would call that a mindset who ordinarily clings to a materialistic worldview and would see psychedelics as merely chemical, and the experience not having any deep meaning. IE they would believe what the materialistic philosophy says how nature/matter is dead/insentient. I do not believe that. I see nature as very much alive, conscious, full of spirit. And this understanding of nature and the physical body is not shared in patriarchal beliefs, but is in Goddess religion, IN Goddess mythology the very Earth is Her body, and thus all the fruits that come come from the dynamic of matter and spirit, and thius they inspire the celebration. So when I say recreational I am meaning celebration. Rather than what the patriarchal pagan mindsets substituted which was catharsis, because they assumed 'spirit' had originally descended into 'matter' and was trapped, and so the whole emphasis of ecstatic experience was to find eventual release from the physical body and nature via 'purification' rituals etc.

So taking all that into consideration, we have to understand how the whole notion and practice of 'therapy' is coming from philosophy that is part OF this oppressive worldview. This is why it is important examine what is meant by therapy. A lot of it can be social control. Telling you you have 'complexes'...by? by someone who thinks THEY are superior to you, and they can overwhelm you with words words words to try and imposer their power over you.

So I encourage a thinking for YOURSELF. be an anarchist of thinking. WHy are people dulled to nature? is it because we have lost that spirit of celebration of this winderful mysterious life, and are told over and over by 'authority' we are guilty, fallen, trapped, full of sin, robots, full of complexes...

Markos, if you dont agree with this, and think it bullshit, tough. I do not really care. Like I said, I am not having a war of words with you. yes you seem well read, but the books you love I do not. I do not however claim you have 'complexes' I can cut out of you like some fkin abcess...WTF. dont tell me!:what2:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: zzripz]
    #23083682 - 04/04/16 08:34 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.




Oh jeeez you got me quoting from the Bible, but it is apt, very




Out of context and not applicable to me in this discussion. Firstly, I am not a hypocrite and secondly, I have already removed the beam from my eye as suggested, (only it wasn't that large a beam), that is why I can clearly attempt to cast the mote from your eye, except that you've got more than a dust-sized mote in your eye! :yesnod: I've been cleaning house for a long time, and I know when I'm in a complex (or have help seeing it). You on the other hand are new to the concept and would rather cling to your world-view as it is than seek to ameliorate its obvious imbalance. So rage on if that's how you want to be. You're not going to change the world, but you're not into changing yourself either apparently. Fortunately, this is only a virtual communication. I wouldn't want to be around someone who chronically blames the mother culture (or father culture in your eyes). That gets quite old quite fast. :bye:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblefilthyknees
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Re: recreational and therapeutic psychedelic experience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23083827 - 04/04/16 09:04 PM (6 years, 2 months ago)

so I had this dream the other night, and I rarely have dreams. in the dream I couldn't see where I was, I could barely even open my eyes a crack enough to know there was light.

so most of the time my eyes where totally shut, and only when I mustered all my strength could I manage lifting my heavy eyelids to get a glimpse of even just what was right in front of me.

the dream felt so long, as if I went though a whole day like that. . .



I guess that was 'my trip'


--------------------
But if you're in a hurry, and really got to go
If you're in a hurry, might have to find out slow
That it's one thing to try and another to fly
You get there quicker just a step at a time
It's one thing to bark, another to bite
The show ain't over till you pack up at night


Edited by filthyknees (04/04/16 09:07 PM)


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