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InvisibleSupalemonhaze
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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23021557 - 03/18/16 08:33 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

That is just around what ypu need. See tje the description. 410cfm .4in sp means it blows 410cfm at .4wg sp.
A little bit more powerful would be on the safe side but im willing to bet it will be enough because the prefilter is almost never 0.2wg

Did flanders confirm that you will be building a jet plane if you go 1.2wg?

And which chart are you not understanding? The blowers? In.sp is the same ad wg. Wg means water gauge and its units is inches so for example 0.4in means 0.4wg sp

OP: seeing as neither of us are engineers I suggest that you do not buy anything until flanders confirms wheter or not it will work at 100fpm at 400cfm @ 1.2wg sp. The question for them is simple, if I use this filter for a flowhood, will it work at 100fpm when it's at 1.2wg or is the chart you supply accurate?

Edit:

I will gladly admit I'm wrong if it turns out that 400cfm@1.2sp is the correct figure, I just don't want anyone to mak costly mistakes. My ego online is not worth people wasting money over. I just hope munxpunx thinks the same.

Edited by Supalemonhaze (03/18/16 09:20 PM)

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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23021909 - 03/18/16 11:04 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

As for emailing Flanders, I got forwarded to someone else in their department named Jimmy. I haven't gotten a response back from Jimmy just yet, but I'll update this thread when I do.


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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: Stargate]
    #23021943 - 03/18/16 11:24 PM (8 years, 11 days ago)

I dunno man, my flow hood works beautifully.


Ill gladly stand corrected if someone else proves me wrong. I wish someone else would chime in.


But I maintain that the match is still the same,  if the filter is 24 x 24 x 12 you want a blower that pushes 400CFM @ 1.2 SP AND a plenum of 12" minimum.

The only difference in a hood with a 6" deep filter and a 12" deep filter is the size of the plenum built behind it.


My blower pushes 549CFM at free air... . It blows just over 300CFM at 1.2 SP and I get perfect laminar flow.

He has a bigger filter face than mine, but you are suggesting a blower that is much less powerfull than mine


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InvisibleSupalemonhaze
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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: mushpunx]
    #23022266 - 03/19/16 02:29 AM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Ok I think we are getting somewhere.

You think the only difference between the filters is the needed plenum size. I will confirm that a 12" filter will allow a lot more air to pass through it than a 6" one.
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

You want about 450 to 500 cfm(cubic feet per minute, a measure of volume) blowing through the filter to get a speed of 100 to 125 fpm(feet per minute, a measure of air speed).  I suspect with that filter, you'll achieve the desired flow with a resistance of around .5 or so.  Find a 500 cfm blower at .5" to .7" W.G.


     

This quote is a response from RR regarding the same type of filter. That is thr 12" thick one. Why would he recommend such a low working sp if the filter did not have less resistance than the 6" one?

Next is another shroomerite who bought a 12" thick hepa and was not sure how to calculate his SP at the cfm he needed. The quote is from someone who told this fellow shroomerite how to calculate this.

Quote:

Terry M said:
Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
ut oh!  so will the resistance be lower or higher at lower cfm? or is there some kind of conversion factor?  now i am really confused




The simplified relationship that, for example, HVAC people use is that for a fixed system, resistance will change with the square of the air velocity. The filter has a resistance of 1.1 inches at 1000 cfm. Its resistance is going to decrease at lower cfm.

The 2x2 filter has an area of 4 square feet. So to achieve the recommended 100 linear fpm, you need 400 cfm.

The square the ratio of air velocities is the conversion factor for the resistance, so

(400/1000)^2 = 0.16

The filter resistance at 400 cfm is 1.1*0.16 = 0.18

Add in the resistance of the prefilter, and you've got the total flow resistance that your blower must support. Of course, as the flow resistance increases, the blower will deliver a lower flow rate. Blower manufacturers should be able to provide this curve. If the blower delivers a high flow rate for the filter resistance, you can always lower it by partly obstructing the intake area.

Regards,
Terry




0.16 w.g sp, that's how much pressure his hepa has when it was going to operate at 100fpm.


Now munx, when you built your flowhood you followed exactly the fungifun reccomendations by getting the 6" thick filter. Because you and the tek you followed had the same filter thickness, the resistance was more or less the same so you got the same result. Now when I built my FH the only variation there was was that I bought a 4" thick filter instead. The difference in resistance is what caused the formula to lose it's accuracy, hence why I have 200fpm.

In your first reply you said to OP that 12" thick hepas are not commonly used yet they have a longer working life. Now imagine that they had the same resistance, wouldn't the first choice for hoods be the 12" thick one since it lasts longer? The only reason why they don't reccomend that filter is because it lets a lot more air through it.

Now next are 2 comparisons between filters like mine and filters like OP'S.

My filter's description:


OP's filter description:


The difference in resistance is easily seen here. While OP's filter achieves 500fpm @1.35wg, mine is able to work at 150fpm at a maximum of 2.0wg. So what causes more airflow to flow through OP'S filter at a lesser static pressure than mine? The filter's resistance to air passing through it.

Here are a number of sizes, depths etc from my modelnumber and OP'S model number.

OP's:


Mine:


The difference between them is pretty much self explanatory but I hope I was able to explain simply enough foe you to understand the differences in resistance between a 6" filter and a 12" one.

You might be wondering, well yours is a 4" filter so why isn't there a drastic difference between 4" and 6" like there is between a 6" and 12"? The answer is because the filters like mine (and yours) are made specifically for flowhoods so a high resistance will both guarantee laminar flow and has a low enough fpm for someone to work in front of it comfortably. In fact you can see in the last pic that this same filter material is used for a number of different thicknesses from 2-6inches. This means that the material is what makes all the difference.

The 12" ones however, are used to clean say, a really big hospital operating theatre. The filter will probably be installed on the cieling or over doors because it's job is to clean the room in the least time possible. Obviously a 500fpm filter is more practical than a 100fpm one for this use so since laminar flow is not a priority, they reduce the filters resistance so the air can pass more freely.

Now, there have been people who managed to get laminar flow out of these filters so even though it is not a priority for the manufacturer that doesn't mean it's not possible, this is also why they reccomend a bigger plenum since the bigger it is the higher the chances of laminar flow. My guess is that it will also have to operate at more than 100fpm for the sp to be enough to create laminar flow but this is where I stop knowing and start guessing. That's why OP should ask the manufacturer because on the shroomery there is so little information on FHs built with low resitance filters. We know it has been done, yet no one has ever documented it which is a total shame. If they did document it people would probably spend like half the amount they actually spend by buying a lesser resistance filter and a lesser powerful blower.

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InvisibleSupalemonhaze
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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: mushpunx]
    #23022280 - 03/19/16 02:34 AM (8 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

mushpunx said:

He has a bigger filter face than mine, but you are suggesting a blower that is much less powerfull than mine




This is because your filter material is comparable to mine while OP'S isn't.

Imagine that we have a 6" thick filter and a 12" thick one but they both have the same face size.

The essential difference between the two filter's materials is that the 12" thick filter will have say, 10,000 0.3micron pores while the 6" thick one has 5,000 0.3um pores.

Which of these filters will have a lesser resistance? And which will let more air through it if they operated at the same sp? I'll let you answer this one.

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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23022617 - 03/19/16 08:12 AM (8 years, 10 days ago)

Ive already explained this in this thread Ive thought ;

The static pressure we are concerned with * is in the plenum*. 1"wg can be hit with just about any filter if you use the correct blower.
The static pressure required for laminar flow is usually around .8 and 1.2" wg. The key is to provide a flow rate of 100cfm per ft2 of the filter face area while maintaining the 1"wg plenum pressure.
The flow rate is the difference with thicker filters. They usually have less resistance so the flow rate is slightly higher.

BUT the flow will still be laminar and thats whats important for our purposes. You just need to match the blower to the filter dimensions, and build your hood with a plenum equal to or greater than the depth of the filter.


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Edited by mushpunx (03/19/16 08:23 AM)

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InvisibleSupalemonhaze
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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: mushpunx]
    #23024417 - 03/19/16 07:38 PM (8 years, 10 days ago)

Slightly? Sure if 5 times the normal amount of air is a slight difference. There is also 0 information about what the minimum sp is for laminar flow. Also different resistances mean that the minimum sp for laminar flow will be different for every filter. Just like fungifun says:

"Every filter has a different static pressure at the working point. The working point is where the amount of the air flowing through the filter is sufficient to meet the requirement of the laminar flow."

You keep saying its 0.8wg because that's what you probably heard from god knows who and it's accurate for your filter but that's not to say it's accurate for a filter that is very different like the 12". There definitely is a minimum sp but if it was 0.8 no one would be able to work in front of it without having all his work blown away.

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InvisibleSupalemonhaze
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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: mushpunx]
    #23024441 - 03/19/16 07:45 PM (8 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

mushpunx said:

The static pressure we are concerned with * is in the plenum*. 1"wg can be hit with just about any filter if you use the correct blower.





It's always in the plenum but it's not the plenum that makes the sp go up, it's the filter's resistance. 1"wg on your filter means 100fpm while on OP's its closer to 400.  As the description said, 1.35"w.g sp= 500fpm. The size of the plenum doesn't change this, the only difference the size of the plenum does is that the bigger it is, the more it aids in laminar flow hence why they reccomend a big plenum for big filters.

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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23025088 - 03/20/16 12:05 AM (8 years, 10 days ago)

Heya guys, I found a fan that may work well, but I would like to get some second opinions:

Found it here:
http://www.amazon.com/Vortex-Powerfans-VTX1200-1140-Powerfan/dp/B003AK1NB2/

But elsewhere, I found the graph for it here. Would this be too powerful? Should I just get it, and attach a speed controller to it?


This one is supposed to do well in hydroponic grow houses with high humidity. Its also been said to be very quiet and powerful relative to a lot of other blowers.


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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23025207 - 03/20/16 01:36 AM (8 years, 10 days ago)

Dude the sp that is listed on them, is what they are tested at with a particle counter, and the corresponding cfm coming out of the filter. 

Meaning that at X.X" sp you get XXX cfm 

The numbers that are listed on the filters are meaningless for us, like I said we are technically repurposing these filters.. I gaurentee, If he uses a filter that blows 400CFM @ 1- 1.2 SP with a 12" plenum minimum he will get perfect laminar flow.
I would put money on it :lol:

Edited by mushpunx (03/20/16 01:38 AM)

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InvisibleSupalemonhaze
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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: Stargate]
    #23025467 - 03/20/16 06:29 AM (8 years, 9 days ago)

Would you also bet that he would have 100fpm?

Now you are twisting words, I never said laminar flow will be a problem at that sp. I said that he will have over 400fpm, which I'm willing to bet a kidney on.

"Meaning that at X.X" sp you get XXX cfm "

That is it exactly, if he follows your advice hes gonna get the rated 500fpm at 1.35wg.

"The numbers that are listed on the filters are meaningless for us, like I said we are technically repurposing these filters."

This I'm afraid, is a load of hpoo. We use these filters exactly how we are supposed to use them. Repurposing means using an air filter for water. Using an air filter for air is just using it how you're supposed to. What do we do different that we somehow re purpose these filters? Everyone uses them by making an airtight chamber/plenum/duct and a blower on the other side. Exactly what we do.

Quote:

Stargate said:
Heya guys, I found a fan that may work well, but I would like to get some second opinions:

Found it here:
http://www.amazon.com/Vortex-Powerfans-VTX1200-1140-Powerfan/dp/B003AK1NB2/

But elsewhere, I found the graph for it here. Would this be too powerful? Should I just get it, and attach a speed controller to it?


This one is supposed to do well in hydroponic grow houses with high humidity. Its also been said to be very quiet and powerful relative to a lot of other blowers.




That is way too powerful IMO. A speed controller is always a good idea though.

Myself, I followed munxpunx formula to a Tee and I got 200fpm. I had already hooked up a speed controller and when I went to calibrate my hood to 100fpm the motor started humming loudly. These blowers aren't really supposed to be hooked up to a speed controller but if one only needs to adjust the speed just a bit, they won't hurt.

I needed 25% of what the blower actually pushes so if I left my speed controller on the 25% mark my blower would have heated up.

I've said my piece OP, I'm gonna step out of this thread now. People only hear what they want to hear. Ego bruising is a big deal for some so it's better this way.

You should wait until flanders emails you back to see what you should do(kinda strange they haven't already emailed you back). If you need any help feel free to PM me I will be happy to help. If you want I can check what email I used to contact them if they won't send back.

I'll definitely be more help without word twisting and selective hearing pushing my psi guage to the red.

Goodluck.

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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: Supalemonhaze]
    #23025677 - 03/20/16 09:03 AM (8 years, 9 days ago)

I'm sure Flanders will reply in a day or so from now. Chances are, they just aren't responding due to business hours (weekend).


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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: Stargate]
    #23027374 - 03/20/16 06:13 PM (8 years, 9 days ago)

http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/universal-blower-1040-cfm-8-sp.html

When I say "re purposing" Im saying that most of these filters, especially the 12" deep filters, are *usually* meant to be used as scrubbers to clean room air.

I like you Haze, I really dont care who's advice works its up to Stargate to choose a blower. Ill be happy if his hood works and has laminar flow.

Its not my formula, its just the formula I used to match a blower to my filter. I didnt have to block the intake or use a speed controller, I got perfect laminar flow the way it was built.

So Im still gunna tell Stargate the same thing.

My filter was 18 x 24 x 6. From the filter face area it needed 300CFM at 1.2 SP and a 6" plenum at least behind the filter.
Blowers are usually listed by CFM @ free air. Mine was 549 CFM @ free air and it pushes 360CFM at .8SP . If you continue up the spec chart its just around 300CFM @ 1.2 sp which was perfect.

Your filter is 24 x 24 x 12. You need a blower that pushes at least 400CFM @ 1.2SP and a 12" plenum at least. It wont be listed at 400CFM though because thats what it pushes at 1.2 SP. Since its listed by free air, it will probably be listed as around 750-800 CFM. You will then have to ask for the blower specs chart and check to see what it pushes at 1.2SP to be sure, but 750-800CFM range is a good place to start looking.

If you look at the blower I linked you to, it pushes 1040 CFM @ .8SP . Its listed as a universal blower because it pushes more than enough for 18 x 24, 24 x 24, all the way up to 24 x 36" filter faces that is is sold to be matched to.. It just needs to be powered down to fit the smaller filters.
But you can see even a blower that pushes twice the CFM @ .1SP  I am sugguesting isn't too big to be made to work for your hood.
If you find one close enough to 400CFM @ 1.2 however you can use it as is and not need to power it down.

The only thing different you would need to do is build a deeper plenum than 12" to accommodate a 12" deep filter.



:kingcrankey:


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Edited by mushpunx (03/20/16 06:28 PM)

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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: mushpunx]
    #23045881 - 03/25/16 07:42 PM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Is it possible to figure out the SP that a centrifugal fan will put out, by knowing the CFM and amperage?


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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: Stargate]
    #23046341 - 03/25/16 10:07 PM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Stargate said:
Is it possible to figure out the SP that a centrifugal fan will put out, by knowing the CFM and amperage?





What you want to figure out is what CFM a blower would put out at a specific static pressure value.

Like my blower was sold as "dayton blower 549 CFM" or something like that, I got it on ebay.
549CFM is at free air, at no static pressure.

I contacted the seller and asked for the blower specs, it usually has either a list or a graph.
Mine had a chart that went up to .8 SP, it showed my blower pushes 360CFM @ .8SP


My seller was able to look at the blower and check the graph it came with. If your seller doesn't have it or wont do that then you probably need to get the model number and ask the company for the blowrr specs.



Whats the brand name/model of the blower you are looking at and what CFM is it listed at (free air)?



Off topic whats the pile of stuff in your sig?


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: mushpunx]
    #23046506 - 03/25/16 10:48 PM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

mushpunx said:
Quote:

Stargate said:
Is it possible to figure out the SP that a centrifugal fan will put out, by knowing the CFM and amperage?





What you want to figure out is what CFM a blower would put out at a specific static pressure value.

Like my blower was sold as "dayton blower 549 CFM" or something like that, I got it on ebay.
549CFM is at free air, at no static pressure.

I contacted the seller and asked for the blower specs, it usually has either a list or a graph.
Mine had a chart that went up to .8 SP, it showed my blower pushes 360CFM @ .8SP


My seller was able to look at the blower and check the graph it came with. If your seller doesn't have it or wont do that then you probably need to get the model number and ask the company for the blowrr specs.



Whats the brand name/model of the blower you are looking at and what CFM is it listed at (free air)?



Off topic whats the pile of stuff in your sig?




The seller and company both have been days with no response now.

I would be buying from:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hurricane-Inline-Duct-Blower-Fan-Inch-4-6-8-10-12-CFM-In-line-Active-/121163698153

They posted this:
CFM/AMP Information:
Inline Fan 4" - 171 CFM / 1 AMP
Inline Fan 6" - 435 CFM / 1 AMP
Inline Fan 8" - 745 CFM / 1.7 AMPS
Inline Fan 10" - 780 CFM / 2.1 AMPS
Inline Fan 12" - 1060 CFM / 2.5 AMPS



Company site area for this product:
http://www.hurricane-fans.com/shop/bybrand/hurricane/hurricane-centrifugal-inline-fans

As you can see in the specs pdf, there is no graph.

As for the pile of stuff in my sig, I assume you mean the brown looking stuff on a piece of paper. That would be my attempt at extracting psilocybin from shrooms.


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Edited by Stargate (03/25/16 10:51 PM)

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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: Stargate]
    #23046651 - 03/25/16 11:28 PM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Oh well dude you dont want an in line blower anyways. People *have* built hoods with them but they suck and are hard to mount.

Look for squirrel cage style blowers.. like they sell on fungi perfecti


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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: mushpunx]
    #23046799 - 03/26/16 12:17 AM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Hmmm, alright, but what makes them suck other than mounting? I don't see mounting as a real issue for me, so is there something else?


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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: Stargate]
    #23046862 - 03/26/16 12:55 AM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Theyre could be but I either dont know or cant remember. Ive discouraged folks from them but more because theyre hard to mount.
Every thread Ive seen about them though I see folks discourage against in line fans and Im pretty sure Ive seen other reasons too

Since you haven't bought one already I really sugguest looking for a squirrel cage blower :shrug:


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Re: Laminar Flow Hood Calculations [Re: mushpunx]
    #23047074 - 03/26/16 04:09 AM (8 years, 4 days ago)

Well, a tip for anyone that is listening, the blower that everyone seems to link to on fungi.com $319 + shipping can actually be found on many other sites for $281.16 and free shipping. Thats likely a savings of $50+. Its the same exact blower.

Google Search: dayton 12g810

I'll pick one of those up.


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