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Anonymous

how to build a voluntary society?
    #2300063 - 02/04/04 11:42 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

how could it actually be done in practice? is it possible?

what i mean is a place where force is only used for purposes of defense. there will always be emergency situations, by which i mean crime, but is it possible to make a government that doesn't initiate force as a routine matter? i'm having trouble framing this question, but i think some will understand what i'm asking.

what is the minimum amount of force possible in a society and how can this level be acheived?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: ]
    #2304702 - 02/05/04 01:55 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I dont think this goal can be achieved through logic. It needs a mass change in perception.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: ]
    #2304748 - 02/05/04 02:04 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think it's really possible on a large scale.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: ]
    #2304891 - 02/05/04 02:36 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Usually force comes in when the rich have something they want to protect from everyone else. The more the rich lighten up and want to share, the less force needed.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2304957 - 02/05/04 02:55 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Why shouldn't some rich guy protect his fortune that he has earned through hard work?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2304996 - 02/05/04 03:05 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Fine, but we're talking about the minimum amount of force a society could have. Force often comes when someone has something valuable that they won't share.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2305048 - 02/05/04 03:19 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Why shouldn't some rich guy protect his fortune that he has earned through hard work?



If you look at the beginnings of civilization, the roots of social and economic inequality lie not in hard work, but in initiation of force. Some farmer stakes out the best farming land and fights off anyone else who tries to use it.


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Anonymous

Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2305202 - 02/05/04 03:48 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Usually force comes in when the rich have something they want to protect from everyone else. The more the rich lighten up and want to share, the less force needed.

true, but irrelevant to the discussion.


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Anonymous

Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2305230 - 02/05/04 03:52 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Fine, but we're talking about the minimum amount of force a society could have. Force often comes when someone has something valuable that they won't share.

true again, but also irrelevant. if people want to keep what's theirs, that's fine. forcefully taking it from them is not a way to reduce coercion in society. of course if everyone would voluntarily share their property with whomever asked it of them, spare their time and efforts voluntarily for anyone who might desire their labor, willingly sleep with anyone who desired them, voluntarily agree to be beaten up, and even voluntarily agree to kill themselves if asked, there would be little coercion in society. but people do not do these things. they usually keep their life, liberty, and property as their own, and the question here is how to build a society in which these rights are most protected.


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Anonymous

Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2305234 - 02/05/04 03:52 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Some farmer stakes out the best farming land and fights off anyone else who tries to use it.

laying a claim on a piece of land is not an initiation of force (unless it already belongs to someone else).


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OfflineMetaShroom
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Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: ]
    #2305242 - 02/05/04 03:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

No, it's directly relevant. To achieve a society with minimal force, you need to remove the current causes of force. Force is needed to maintain a disequilibrium, where there are very rich and very poor people. What is needed is to work towards a system where the hoarding of wealth to the disadvanatge of others is seen as socially unacceptable.


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OfflineMetaShroom
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Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: ]
    #2305263 - 02/05/04 03:56 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:

laying a claim on a piece of land is not an initiation of force (unless it already belongs to someone else).




Yes it is, by claiming common land as their own, the person immediately creates an implied threat of force. This is using force to discourage others from taking back the land.


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Anonymous

Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2305274 - 02/05/04 03:58 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

No, it's directly relevant. To achieve a society with minimal force, you need to remove the current causes of force.

the cause being that some people are more productive than others.

Force is needed to maintain a disequilibrium, where there are very rich and very poor people.

force perhaps, but defensive force.

What is needed is to work towards a system where the hoarding of wealth to the disadvanatge of others is seen as socially unacceptable.

what is needed is for people to see that the market is not static. there is not some pile of goodies from which we can all take a handful. everything around us which is of value was produced, invented, or discovered by productive human effort. wealth is created. those who create wealth have a right to the wealth they create. if they choose to create a lot of wealth, that is up to them, and it doesn't give those who don't create enough wealth license to steal from them.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2305293 - 02/05/04 04:01 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Greed is the problem.


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Anonymous

Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: MetaShroom]
    #2305309 - 02/05/04 04:03 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Yes it is, by claiming common land as their own, the person immediately creates an implied threat of force.

common land?

an undiscovered island is worthless to humans. we cannot have "common property" which we haven't even yet discovered. of course, no one owns it. if i venture out in search of land, and find it, i have a right to that land. every piece of land in the world was discovered by human exploration.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: ]
    #2305321 - 02/05/04 04:05 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

if i venture out in search of land, and find it, i have a right to that land.




Ridiculous! Who bestows this right?


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Anonymous

Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2305333 - 02/05/04 04:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Greed is the problem.

greed is the problem in almost any social organization. the way to minimize the problems caused by it is to forbid the initiation of force as a means for individuals to acheive their material goals.


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Anonymous

Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2305338 - 02/05/04 04:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Ridiculous! Who bestows this right?

why can't i claim something that no one else yet owns (or is even aware of)?


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OfflineMetaShroom
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Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: ]
    #2305349 - 02/05/04 04:09 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
everything around us which is of value was produced, invented, or discovered by productive human effort. wealth is created. those who create wealth have a right to the wealth they create. if they choose to create a lot of wealth, that is up to them, and it doesn't give those who don't create enough wealth license to steal from them.




If you take a close look at the world you will see that often those who work hardest are the poorest, and those who work least are the richest. If everyone was rewarded according only to the effort they put into their work, things would be very different.

Ask youself if there is enough wealth to go round to make everyone as rich as the richest people? Clearly not everyone has the choice to create as much wealth as they want.


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Re: how to build a voluntary society? [Re: ]
    #2305362 - 02/05/04 04:11 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
why can't i claim something that no one else yet owns (or is even aware of)?




You can claim what you want, but don't expect anyone to listen to you (unless you threaten the use of force)


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