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OfflineThanatos10
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Solipsism aid
    #22994565 - 03/10/16 11:37 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Has anyone here encountered this before? Also how did you manage to get out of it. I'm finding it really hard to move past the whole reality being my dream and people not being real. It's starting to scare me and i don't know how to combat it.


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22994592 - 03/10/16 11:56 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Probably depersonalisation, part of your depression? :hug:


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My shield...
My armour...

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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: circastes]
    #22994649 - 03/11/16 12:27 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Not depression. It's just being unable to get over it now that I learned about it


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Invisibleremake
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10] * 3
    #22994797 - 03/11/16 01:44 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I sometimes think we all are only able to interpret the signals from that which we receive from others and our surroundings in our own, unique, environmental determined way.

Thus, in a sense you are creating your very own, personal, analytical interpretation of reality - Not reality itself.

Your interpretation of reality, thus, is your own and fluid with change according to your position within it. That doesn't mean, however, that a man will turn into an actual manifestation of a duck if you look and think long enough. You can however, metaphorically describe a man as a duck - the metaphor, however, stays just that!

The actuality of things outside of yourself happening exclusively to your own benefit/destruction without direct influence from yourself in a physical implementation of these illusions, such as you typing these messages now - however, is not possible.

Don't stray too far of into delusion.

Like you maintained before - everything is meaningless - although everything does exist.

Note the potential that lies in the fact that you control what meaning you apply to things. You can act out the way in which it seems fit to you and to certain levels control the way in which others interpret you by projecting and making yourself available or unavailable in certain ways.

The tools used for interpretation are limited by your knowledge and our current evolutionary stage - we have to work together to improve this. 

Just play the game. Don't give the mechanics behind it too much thought.

You are in a position of emotionlessness - there is a lot of potential and power in that. You could BUT don't have to feel guilty or alone - or feel that something needs to be fixed.

Start manipulating your surroundings by acting out the way you wish. You are already acting. Life is a playground. Determine which actor within you during whatever situation would garner the greatest benefit to your own physical self. Remember though that all other organisms are doing the same for themselves (and not you) and would thus defend themselves if you undermine their importance over your own - just as you would do the same to them. There is a way of giving and getting at the same time.

Notice too how once you talk, act or move you cannot communicate or interpret experience directly. Your mind is interpreting things that has already happened or speculating what is going to happen - The actual present experience of events and of you is not definable.

All we can do it seems is just to choose how we observe the spectacle of our own inevitable movements - The observation thereof, again, CAN but doesn't have to be - painful, boring or pointless.   

Detach emotion and pride, but do not attempt to remove consciousness, from the "self".


Edited by remake (03/11/16 03:01 AM)

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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: remake]
    #22994917 - 03/11/16 03:19 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

FranniePilgrim said:
I sometimes think we all are only able to interpret the signals from that which we receive from others and our surroundings in our own, unique, environmental determined way.

Thus, in a sense you are creating your very own, personal, analytical interpretation of reality - Not reality itself.

Your interpretation of reality, thus, is your own and fluid with change according to your position within it. That doesn't mean, however, that a man will turn into an actual manifestation of a duck if you look and think long enough. You can however, metaphorically describe a man as a duck - the metaphor, however, stays just that!

The actuality of things outside of yourself happening exclusively to your own benefit/destruction without direct influence from yourself in a physical implementation of these illusions, such as you typing these messages now - however, is not possible.

Don't stray too far of into delusion.

Like you maintained before - everything is meaningless - although everything does exist.

Note the potential that lies in the fact that you control what meaning you apply to things. You can act out the way in which it seems fit to you and to certain levels control the way in which others interpret you by projecting and making yourself available or unavailable in certain ways.

The tools used for interpretation are limited by your knowledge and our current evolutionary stage - we have to work together to improve this. 

Just play the game. Don't give the mechanics behind it too much thought.

You are in a position of emotionlessness - there is a lot of potential and power in that. You could BUT don't have to feel guilty or alone - or feel that something needs to be fixed.

Start manipulating your surroundings by acting out the way you wish. You are already acting. Life is a playground. Determine which actor within you during whatever situation would garner the greatest benefit to your own physical self. Remember though that all other organisms are doing the same for themselves (and not you) and would thus defend themselves if you undermine their importance over your own - just as you would do the same to them. There is a way of giving and getting at the same time.

Notice too how once you talk, act or move you cannot communicate or interpret experience directly. Your mind is interpreting things that has already happened or speculating what is going to happen - The actual present experience of events and of you is not definable.

All we can do it seems is just to choose how we observe the spectacle of our own inevitable movements - The observation thereof, again, CAN but doesn't have to be - painful, boring or pointless.   

Detach emotion and pride, but do not attempt to remove consciousness, from the "self".






QFT. Nailed it.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Invisibleremake
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22994996 - 03/11/16 04:36 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

For the sake of a thought experiment, imagine yourself going outside and you see a man walking in one direction. You have never met this person. He is on his own path. You can choose to do nothing and let him continue walking. Your existence, to him, in this moment is non-existent.

But,

You can also choose to walk up to him and say: "Fuck you!" or: "Hey man, I like your style". Suddenly, you become PART of his existence, but not the definition thereof.

The severity of his reaction to you is both dependent on your choice of interaction - based of and restricted to your own culminative experiences - and his interpretation of said action - based of and restricted to his own culminative experiences.

You, and everyone else, are both the man walking and the man observing, to yourself and to others. Life is an inter-play of actions and reactions.

Trick is also - "you" don't have to mean (or be emotionally attached to) what you say/do in order to get what you want/don't want/need/don't need.

However,

What you mean, what you need, what you want and who you are - are separate things to the eyes on the outside but can be restructured in yourself to fit your own purpose. Nonetheless the substance of the structure you create of yourself remains lucrative and much more liquid than solid. Thus, just go with the flow.

Edited by remake (03/11/16 07:42 AM)

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22995374 - 03/11/16 09:04 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

dearest Thanatos,

here is my advice re your solipsism, an i assure you it's backed by deep philosophical insight that i need not go into rn:

GET A HAIRCUT!

no wait, seriously. i am not accusing you of being a hippie or whatever, i am just saying in all earnestness, you need to get a haircut..

a different one. whatever you like (it's your choice), get speed stripes or dye it pink and green or just completely shave off the top.

it really doesnt matter just get a haircut, it's the easiest thing, u can even do it yourself, just make sure it is different..

then pls report back in detail on your findings.


--------------------
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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: circastes]
    #22995385 - 03/11/16 09:08 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

dearest circastes

the pic in your signature is disturbing. also quite well made.

what the hell is it and why.

please report back


--------------------
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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: remake]
    #22995476 - 03/11/16 09:49 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

FranniePilgrim said:
For the sake of a thought experiment, imagine yourself going outside and you see a man walking in one direction. You have never met this person. He is on his own path. You can choose to do nothing and let him continue walking. Your existence, to him, in this moment is non-existent.

But,

You can also choose to walk up to him and say: "Fuck you!" or: "Hey man, I like your style". Suddenly, you become PART of his existence, but not the definition thereof.

The severity of his reaction to you is both dependent on your choice of interaction - based of and restricted to your own culminative experiences - and his interpretation of said action - based of and restricted to his own culminative experiences.

You, and everyone else, are both the man walking and the man observing, to yourself and to others. Life is an inter-play of actions and reactions.

Trick is also - "you" don't have to mean (or be emotionally attached to) what you say/do in order to get what you want/don't want/need/don't need.

However,

What you mean, what you need, what you want and who you are - are separate things to the eyes on the outside but can be restructured in yourself to fit your own purpose. Nonetheless the substance of the structure you create of yourself remains lucrative and much more liquid than solid. Thus, just go with the flow.




But how does that help me resolve as to whether or not you and other things are just a product of my mind and not real? That I'm not dreaming? To me it seems like you can't prove one or the other so there is no point in believing in it (Because that's what it is, a belief).


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.

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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22995489 - 03/11/16 09:56 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I think many of you play with our real destiny and nature because it is ugly.  You will die and culture may try to make it pretty or meaningful but it's not. Your a animal and your existence is not special no matter how many shrooms you ingest.

Honest debate with courageous honest people on this site is disappointing. I'm not sure this discourse is anything but a merry go round of identities screaming their proclivities. But if this forum is the cream of psychedelic thought it is if not tragic stagnation.

That I have sounded my trumpet proceed with the fanfare.

Edited by Jaegar (03/11/16 10:17 AM)

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22995528 - 03/11/16 10:16 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

HAIRCUT :waits:


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #22995533 - 03/11/16 10:18 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Depends how short.

Seriously though this safe space is a freak show more then a genius squeezer.

And yes it's a bender lol. Friday .

2 am here.

Edited by Jaegar (03/11/16 10:28 AM)

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jaegar]
    #22995546 - 03/11/16 10:23 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

why?

(youre also australian arent you? why are u up at 4 am like me?)


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #22995569 - 03/11/16 10:31 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

As to why.

I think many of the worlds issues are from people who stick their head in the ground and those that support them.

From my own observations the discussions if not a complete farce is a disingenuous.

Edited by Jaegar (03/11/16 10:35 AM)

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jaegar]
    #22995583 - 03/11/16 10:39 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

hah nice.....

:shrug: maybe

i dont think it is important how short op cuts their hair.. it is preferable that they dont stick their head in the ground tho because ideally other people should be able to view and asses their new hair cut :twocents:


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #22995585 - 03/11/16 10:41 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Fuck humanity really dons' t stand a chance does it. Don't really know what your persona regurgitated into action but it's mundane.

Edited by Jaegar (03/11/16 10:43 AM)

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jaegar]
    #22995588 - 03/11/16 10:42 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


From my own observations the discussions if not a complete farce is a disingenuous.




the discussions here?

i havent been around for a while but that seems a bit melodramatic.. what is wrong with them?


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jaegar]
    #22995589 - 03/11/16 10:43 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jaegar said:
Fuck humanity really dons' t stand a chance does it.




probably not.. (?)

Quote:

Don't really know what your persona regurgitated into action but it's mundane.




stop reediting your posts it's confusing. i dont know what content this is addressing or how it is relevant?

seems like a personalism..

tho i really couldnt care what you think my persona is or what you think about it :blah:

Edited by quinn (03/11/16 11:08 AM)

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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #22995597 - 03/11/16 10:47 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

You giving yourself some points for your stalwart fort.

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jaegar]
    #22995602 - 03/11/16 10:49 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

:lolwut:


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #22995605 - 03/11/16 10:49 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Lol you love it.

Funking validation.


Pretend you matter.

Hey I get it.

Your like the other 8 billion mammals. Which some would say is remarkably small in comparison the the universe.

Edited by Jaegar (03/11/16 10:54 AM)

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22995612 - 03/11/16 10:54 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

FranniePilgrim said:
For the sake of a thought experiment, imagine yourself going outside and you see a man walking in one direction. You have never met this person. He is on his own path. You can choose to do nothing and let him continue walking. Your existence, to him, in this moment is non-existent.

But,

You can also choose to walk up to him and say: "Fuck you!" or: "Hey man, I like your style". Suddenly, you become PART of his existence, but not the definition thereof.

The severity of his reaction to you is both dependent on your choice of interaction - based of and restricted to your own culminative experiences - and his interpretation of said action - based of and restricted to his own culminative experiences.

You, and everyone else, are both the man walking and the man observing, to yourself and to others. Life is an inter-play of actions and reactions.

Trick is also - "you" don't have to mean (or be emotionally attached to) what you say/do in order to get what you want/don't want/need/don't need.

However,

What you mean, what you need, what you want and who you are - are separate things to the eyes on the outside but can be restructured in yourself to fit your own purpose. Nonetheless the substance of the structure you create of yourself remains lucrative and much more liquid than solid. Thus, just go with the flow.




But how does that help me resolve as to whether or not you and other things are just a product of my mind and not real? That I'm not dreaming? To me it seems like you can't prove one or the other so there is no point in believing in it (Because that's what it is, a belief).




You're just going to have to decide whether there is validity to common sense (or not).  If it is such a leap of faith for you to concede that reality is in fact real, you're just in a bad place psychologically.  Technically, you can't prove anything is real.  But in my experience (and I was once the same way) you just have to have faith in common sense, and decide that people really do exist, and there's a fucking huge universe out there full of God knows what.  Does it make any more sense to you that you're a simulation of some higher race?  Or maybe just some silly little primate mucking around on Earth, after all.

Other than that I don't really know what to tell you.  I think you sense there is a very real problem with solipsism given that you have created this thread.  So it's just up to you to decide.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jaegar]
    #22995624 - 03/11/16 10:58 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jaegar said:
Lol you love it.

Funking validation.


Pretend you matter.

Hey I get it.

Your like the other 8 billion mammals. Which some would say is remarkably small in comparison the the universe.




hey i do love validation and pretending i matter and i am like the other 8 bil people in the world good call :shrug:

i dont know what the fuck kind of bender youve been on but this conversation basically stopped making sense a while ago (if it ever did)

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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #22995633 - 03/11/16 11:04 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe none of it does matter. Only that you continue to fuck and eat.

Unless some sancrosanct temple has been violated lol.

Edited by Jaegar (03/11/16 11:06 AM)

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jaegar]
    #22995647 - 03/11/16 11:10 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

dont fuck or eat in my temple, thanks


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #22995653 - 03/11/16 11:11 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Lol thanks for playing.

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #22995659 - 03/11/16 11:14 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

lol, it hasnt been fun and i mostly dont know what you are on about but w/e


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #22995674 - 03/11/16 11:20 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

What part of you is not happy?

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jaegar]
    #22995708 - 03/11/16 11:30 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

im fine, i mostly just want Thanatos to get a haircut which i am still holding out for despite being derailed from that point


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22995869 - 03/11/16 12:36 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

FranniePilgrim said:
For the sake of a thought experiment, imagine yourself going outside and you see a man walking in one direction. You have never met this person. He is on his own path. You can choose to do nothing and let him continue walking. Your existence, to him, in this moment is non-existent.

But,

You can also choose to walk up to him and say: "Fuck you!" or: "Hey man, I like your style". Suddenly, you become PART of his existence, but not the definition thereof.

The severity of his reaction to you is both dependent on your choice of interaction - based of and restricted to your own culminative experiences - and his interpretation of said action - based of and restricted to his own culminative experiences.

You, and everyone else, are both the man walking and the man observing, to yourself and to others. Life is an inter-play of actions and reactions.

Trick is also - "you" don't have to mean (or be emotionally attached to) what you say/do in order to get what you want/don't want/need/don't need.

However,

What you mean, what you need, what you want and who you are - are separate things to the eyes on the outside but can be restructured in yourself to fit your own purpose. Nonetheless the substance of the structure you create of yourself remains lucrative and much more liquid than solid. Thus, just go with the flow.




But how does that help me resolve as to whether or not you and other things are just a product of my mind and not real? That I'm not dreaming? To me it seems like you can't prove one or the other so there is no point in believing in it (Because that's what it is, a belief).




You're just going to have to decide whether there is validity to common sense (or not).  If it is such a leap of faith for you to concede that reality is in fact real, you're just in a bad place psychologically.  Technically, you can't prove anything is real.  But in my experience (and I was once the same way) you just have to have faith in common sense, and decide that people really do exist, and there's a fucking huge universe out there full of God knows what.  Does it make any more sense to you that you're a simulation of some higher race?  Or maybe just some silly little primate mucking around on Earth, after all.

Other than that I don't really know what to tell you.  I think you sense there is a very real problem with solipsism given that you have created this thread.  So it's just up to you to decide.




It's a pretty big leap. Because ultimately I can't prove anything to be real and that bugs me. I normally need a reason to believe that. But at its base level there is no reason. You just have to take it on faith in this case. I can't prove this is all my dream any more than I cannot. It doesn't make any difference either way. I guess this is just one of those questions we don't have answers to and I need to be ok with that.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22995946 - 03/11/16 01:02 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
I guess this is just one of those questions we don't have answers to and I need to be ok with that.



I very much admire this conclusion. It's fucking annoying, but it's the way it is.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #22996076 - 03/11/16 01:49 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
dearest circastes

the pic in your signature is disturbing. also quite well made.

what the hell is it and why.

please report back



It's a self portrait of me eating a mushroom at my place.

Nah lolz, it's by Theyrada or some group of artists, I can't remember the name exactly. I saw it on Facebook. Not sure what it means entirely but sort of reminds me of Pan's Labrynth. Gives you something to think about.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22996566 - 03/11/16 04:12 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Has anyone here encountered this before? Also how did you manage to get out of it. I'm finding it really hard to move past the whole reality being my dream and people not being real. It's starting to scare me and i don't know how to combat it.




you go up to someone and


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: laughingdog]
    #22996837 - 03/11/16 05:33 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I mean ultimately it goes down to a belief. You either believe this is all a dream or is all real. I think I'll choose the more productive one.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22996925 - 03/11/16 06:13 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Productive?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22997097 - 03/11/16 07:10 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

The one that's more likely to make you act, in this case saying that it's real instead of just a figment of you imagination.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22997170 - 03/11/16 07:28 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Reality is relatively real


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #22997669 - 03/11/16 09:43 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Shake off the guilt trip (often impressed by others as a "psychological" problem). Solipsism is a genuine philosophical problem, and thoughtful people in the modern world will will recognize this in certain ways.

If they do recognize it, or what the conditions of solipsism really are, they will at the same time realize the seperation and alienation is usually not fundamental.

You live in a culture that values and irresponsibly asserts the place of a mental an intellect as the basis of existence. You yourself, say you are contained to mental contents. Well, where is this supposed place of the mind, or intellect that the western tradition purportedly values so much? Could you point to it?

Maybe you can imagine its roundabout location around an inch or two behind your eyes. But don't look just to its place so approximately and dogmatically; consider, have you ever observed yourself think? Well, maybe leave that query also, to the meditation practice, or your gurus to ask you.

The question I would ask, is are there any empirical observations that have been made of a consciousness, or mind, the place of thinking? There has been a whole lot said, a lot of rationalizations people have made of there being a consciousness, or its isolated place, but nobody has observed a conscious entity, that is demarked and contained.

Likewise the broader foundation of modern western intellectual values, namely, the one that asserts the basis of "intellectual", is not itself just intellectual. For example, in the same provision just suggested, what is this supposed "subject" we each "are"? Again do not consider it dogmatically, but consider what is meant by the word, subject and look for it.

Is subjectivity, just the imagined "place" of you or I that sets us up to relate to a world, or consensus of objectivity? Purportedly, above all, subjectivity is a place in these affairs (in one sense that it has to have its place) but I just asked fairly, what is this subject we are.

It is also fair to mention, a subject is supposed to be something we genuinely inquire into, and so when people mark subjectivity as the basis of inquiry, do we inquire into it? What would we inquire to. Since Aristotle, a subject itself opened particularly to knowledge. A tree is a subject of inquiry, or a flower, or a book, because in marking them as subjects they are things that open to us, and show us the way they are, in themselves. The "subject" of a sentence opens to what is said of it.

People today seem to be bewitched by a grammatical notion, as subject. The critical question for the practicing solipsist would be, why (in what sense) do we call the subject "we are" a subject? I am in doubt there is such a thing.

To get to it, it seems to me this notion arises in part, because one philosopher in a particular moment of history, (Descartes) suggested, that all things may be doubted but that oneself thinks. The argument goes cogito ergo sum, I think therefore I am.

One thinks, therefore one is, compared to everything which was found comparably only in provision of doubt. He suggested this doubting in certain means, and provisions, to ground the "certain foundation of the sciences". Hence we speak of a subject we are, (somewhat in a unique way) as thinking and doubting, and this thoughtful doubt is prior to and conditioning the possibility of engaging actual subjects in the physical world, ie. what we can know. In this sense the world does not open to us in itself, but in our conditional perceptions.

Interestingly, we can note, Descartes never reconciled this purportedly substantive subject of the mind (a " thinking thing") with the subject of the world, and here is the kicker - that is why people accept and invest in a mental and physical division as the basis of all things. The essence of this is solipsism, doubting to a point where one is just down to one's cognitive content.

You can read all about it here (And I recommend reading the original source of this argument "I think therefore I am" too)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_on_the_Method

Hope this is helpful. Existential malaise is not just easily cured. This response may be a bit formal, respectively, but one has to be as formal as what one wishes to critique. It is possible to construct the conditions of solipsism in this way to understand it, in my opinion.

But the best way to get out of solipsism is to value your subjective experiences and senses and feelings, rather than formalize them as the basis of some ill begotten notion of certain knowledge to seek their validation. People might call you dumb for this (I have heard it from the cognitively centered) but being just physical and in your senses, and then intellectual, is no foul. Best luck.

Edited by Kurt (03/11/16 10:28 PM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt] * 1
    #22997756 - 03/11/16 10:16 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Nice post, Kurt.  Of course in anthropology, there are many variants of the notion of mind and self.  I am reminded of a tribe in South America, I can't remember the name, that existed as a genuine group mind.  The members of the tribe had no concept of the individual self.  They could only think and act cohesively as a group unit.  All the decisions about where to hunt or how often were made by this collective mind; separated from others, a member of the tribe was lost and, both in cultural and practical terms, useless.

So Kurt's comments about a localized self being rather elusive are quite on point, I think.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #22997813 - 03/11/16 10:30 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kurt said:
Shake off the guilt trip (often impressed by others as a "psychological" problem). Solipsism is a genuine philophical problem, and thoughtful people in the modern world will will recognize this in certain ways.

If they do recognize it, or what the conditions of solipsism really are, they will at the same time realize the seperation and alienation is usually not fundamental.

You live in a culture that values and irresponsibly asserts the place of a mental an intellect as the basis of existence. You yourself, say you are contained to mental contents. Well, where is this supposed place of the mind, or intellect that the western tradition purportedly values so much? Could you point to it?

Maybe you can imagine its roundabout location around an inch or two behind your eyes. But don't look just to its place so approximately and dogmatically; consider, have you ever observed yourself think? Well, maybe leave that query also, to the meditation practice, or your gurus to ask you.

The question I would ask, is are there any empirical observations that have been made of a consciousness, or mind, the place of thinking? There has been a whole lot said, a lot of rationalizations people have made of there being a consciousness, or its isolated place, but nobody has observed a conscious entity, that is demarked and contained.

Likewise the broader foundation of modern western intellectual values, namely, the one that asserts the basis of "intellectual", is not itself just intellectual. For example, in the same provision just suggested, what is this supposed "subject" we each "are"? Again do not consider it dogmatically, but consider what is meant by the word, subject and look for it.

Is subjectivity, just the imagined "place" of you or I that sets us up to relate to a world, or consensus of objectivity? Purportedly, above all, subjectivity is a place in these affairs (in one sense that it has to have its place) but I just asked fairly, what is this subject we are.

It is also fair to mention, a subject is supposed to be something we genuinely inquire into, and so when people mark subjectivity as the basis of inquiry, do we inquire into it? Since Aristotle, a subject itself opened to knowledge. A tree is a subject of inquiry, or a flower, or a book, because in marking them as subjects they are things that open to us, and show us the way they are, in themselves. The subject of a sentence opens to what is said of it.

People today seem to be bewitched by a grammatical notion. The critical question for the practicing solipsist would be, why do we call the subject "we are" a subject?

Get to it. This is because one philosopher in a moment of history, suggested, that all things may be doubted but that oneself thinks. One thinks, therefore one is, compared to everything. He suggested this doubting in certain means to ground the "foundation of the sciences". Hence we speak of a subject we are, as thinking and doubting, and this thoughtful doubt as prior to actual subjects in the world. He never reconciled this purportedly substantive subject of the mind with the subject of the world, and here is the kicker - that is why people accept mental and physical division as the basis of all things.

You can read all about it here (And I recommend reading the original source of this argument "I think therefore I am"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_on_the_Method

Hope this is helpful. It may be a bit formal. (One has to be as formal as what one wishes to critique) The best way to get out of solipsism is to value your subjective experiences and senses and feelings, rather than formalize them as the basis of some ill begotten notion of certain knowledge. People might call you dumb for this (I have heard it from the cognitively centered) but being just physical and in your senses is no foul. Best luck.




I'm sorry, but I can never understand any of your posts. It's like I'm reading them and the point you make just goes right over my head. Kind of like how I can't read philosophy books without getting lost after a few pages. The writing confuses me.

But as for solipsism, it's just now that I have an issue with it. Prior to that I just began to make other people seem unreal. I found emotions to be weak and caring about other people to be weak as well. Any emotion was squashed. I guess this is just a consequence of that. By shutting my emotions out and not caring about others, I began to not view them as anything. Of course this is just a dodge, a way to escape my emotions and having to care. IF they aren't real why bother right? Deep down I know it's cowardice and dodging but I can't seem to convince myself otherwise.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22997949 - 03/11/16 11:39 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Solipsistic logic, is at the heart of a certain kind of intellectualism and intellectual culture that is supposed to be "detached" from things. This could inform your attitude, prior to you recognizing it. I suspect it does. I think solipsism (the place of a paradigmatic "intellectual" argument) is itself the insinuation of the mode of detachment you describe.

It is possible to formulate what a solipsistic complex is, in general in this way, in terms of traditional sources and assumptions in western philosophy. Maybe at the same time this is also the problem of spirit or psyche, but what can we say in regards to that here?

Philosophical or intellectual culture itself is somewhat convoluted in terminology. Cartesian Dualism (subjectivism as a basis of skepticism/objectivity) is for this very reason something most people as individuals do not step out of, because they are not able to reconcile with the terms (though they commonly use them)

I think if people focused on this argument in Discourse on Method, they would wonder why they ever gave the problem or problematic of "subjectivity" any validity at all. At the same time, presently the fundamental and enduring assumption of our "intellectual" western culture, is that we are conscious subjects, met to objects, and it is also impossible to step out of subjectivity in that respect.

It is impossible to take exception to the "method" of constructing knowledge in these terms of a subject and an object, and if you do, you will likely be accused of an error of reasoning. Or maybe (more likely) you will somewhat unconsciously use this lexicon yourself. In any case....

Divided Quantum pretty much summarizes the general point that (relatively) a western person's idea and dominant philosophy of intellectualism is a particular culture. It is a culture that suggests detachment as general basis of reasoning (ie. Or rather, in the routine delination of subject perceptions, senses, and experiences being described appropriately to meet objective consensus).

But what are these supposed confines of "subjectivity" which we are either in ourselves or according to our culture, encased in? Sidelong and related to this critical question, (that must be left open so far as people believe in conscious subjects) is what a solipsistic complex may be generally considered, accordingly.

Purportedly there is a "subject" you are, (the conscious subject or subjectivity) that comes prior, and conditions any subject that you look to in in the world. That subject is accessible down to what I am writing here (The subject of your present interest).

Modern people suppose that these two kinds of subjects are split apart, as the subject of the mind, and the subject of the physical world, and also prescribe that they must relate commensurably (through sense) for us to have an appropriate intellectual exchange at the same time.

What I have suggested, is that the subject you are (the subjectivity of cartesian epistemology) does not exist, and can't be grounded in the world. There was never an observation of "I think"; only a rationalization that made that bubble of speculation appear compelling. It is a formality we assume.

If you feel seperate, as a "conscious subject" what I am attempting to describe is this, and how it is in the formal way we are indoctrinated to take a seperate, synthetic view of things intellectually. It is not a compelling theory in itself, that mental contents exist. The detachment of this mind (nothing less than its fundamental conception) is formally taken, supposedly a strength in intellectual argument. In a way it is, and in another it is not.


I think this is the best I can do here. Point it out. All I or anyone can say is work hard and focus and you'll figure things out in you life....Life is not just "there" existing, it is a work, after all. I'd venture that is what implies your place in the world, not thoughtful rationalizations.

Edited by Kurt (03/12/16 03:26 AM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #22998012 - 03/12/16 12:11 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kurt said:
Solipsistic logic, which is the heart of a certain kind of intellectualism and intellectual culture that is supposed to be "detached" could inform your attitude, prior to you recognizing it. I am not certain. I am just, by whatever pretense, attempting to formulate what I think a solipsistic complex is, based on traditional sources in philosophy.

Keep in mind philosophical or intellectual culture itself is somewhat convoluted in terminology. Cartesian Dualism is something most people as individuals do not step out of. I would say it is possible, and yet  as a fundamental and enduring assumption of our "intellectual" western culture, it is impossible to step out of. It is impossible for instance, to take exception to constructing knowledge in terms of a subject and an object, and if you do, you will likely be accused of an error of reasoning. Or maybe you will somewhat unconsciously use this lexicon yourself.

Divided Quantum pretty much summarizes the general point, that a western person's idea and dominant philosophy of intellectualism is a particular culture, which is purportedly assuming a general and universal form in the detached or objective (ie. In the routine of subject meeting objective).

I don't think this solves your problem. Like I said, I am just constructing the notion, of what a solipsistic complex may be, and how it may be indoctrinated and related to your culture. You can think about it.

Purportedly there is a subject you are, that comes prior, and a subject that you look to in in the world, like what I am writing. (The subject of your present interest). Modern people suppose that these bases of subjects are split apart, as the subject of the mind, and the subject of the physical world, but prescribes that they must relate for us to have an appropriate intellectual exchange. What I have suggested, is that the subject you are (or rather the subjectivity of cartesian epistemology) does not exist, and can't be grounded. It is a formality.

I don't think this will sove your problems, but if you feel seperate, what I am attempting to describe is the way we are indoctrinated to take a seperate, synthetic view of things. I made some edit on the previous post, for clarity. (That italic was not intentional for one thing). I think this is the best I can do here anyway. Other than that, all anyone can say is work hard and focus and you'll figure things out in you life....Life is not just "there" existing, it is a work. 




I'm sorry, it's just that I can't really understand your writing. I think the term people say is "use small words" (it's me not you I'm afraid).

But I guess it's like saying there is no subject independent of the world (which is what solipsism needs), but rather that both are one in the same. You are the world, reality, and it you. There is no subject separate from the object. I think.

Sigh, it just confuses me.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22998139 - 03/12/16 12:51 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Thanatos, look at the edits I made to both posts. Sometimes I am actually not clear myself (partly because I am typing on the phone), and it doesn't help that this is also a confusing subject. Sometimes exposition is a process.

What I am saying of subjectivity is it is a philosophical construct. You are speaking as if mental entities, (subjects) exist. Why? That is the question I am asking you, and so it probably doesn't make sense to look to what I am saying as an answer, like I am giving you this information.

If you want to know why I don't think subjects which we are exist, well then, that is what I am telling you in my own words, in those previous posts.

Don't give up man, you will figure things out (and this has little to do with anything said around here.)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22998165 - 03/12/16 01:04 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

dearest Thanatos,

i cant really follow Kurt's posts either... i think DividedQuantum made an very interesting one about a South American tribe whose collective existence defined the individual members beyond what they could have done by themselves.

i urge you to get a haircut. please stop ignoring this advice.

also, pls post pics when complete :thumbup:


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: circastes]
    #22998174 - 03/12/16 01:10 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
It's a self portrait of me eating a mushroom at my place.

Nah lolz, it's by Theyrada or some group of artists, I can't remember the name exactly. I saw it on Facebook. Not sure what it means entirely but sort of reminds me of Pan's Labrynth. Gives you something to think about.




cool, yeah it's creepy... pans labrynth, now there was a good film :yesnod:


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22998181 - 03/12/16 01:13 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with that view in some terms. It is really confusing. I believe it to be important to investigate realistic practical ways of how you can slowly, patiently shape reality, not just through the construction of your perspective but as you aplly that perspective onto the world as well in its current "mundande" stage. We are always going to be here. In this one reality. Speculating on what caused it or continues to cause it, or thinking we can escape it and exist somewhere else as an identiy completely dependent of its origin is futile.

It stagnates us from discovering, experiencing and inventing what we can actually do in this one universe - this one life - with all its mundane animal properties and restrictions. You already are part of the system. What that system is doesn't matter. Perhaps we should just learn how to use it.

Really use and let ourselves be used - mindfully - no attachments.

It's you and me as we exist in this moment.

Where are we now?

Remember though that you do not escape humanity.

You - everything you do - is natural and just as it should be. It could not have been otherwise.

Because, look here you are!

Where to now?

Edited by remake (03/12/16 01:35 AM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: remake]
    #22998252 - 03/12/16 02:03 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Arrgggh, this just makes me want to tear out my brain. I can't even understand the advice that is being given to me. It's like this every time I step into philosophy, I end up dwelling on an idea for months and getting stuck until in over it.

It still don't get it, I don't even understand the solutions being offered here. Suicide has come up a few times, it would stop the pain and uncertainty. Everyone says I'll figure it out, I won't! It will just rattle in my brain, gnawing at me until I forget about it and move on (just like everything else in philosophy). Every new piece of data is agony and make me turn from learning. This is just the latest wound to open. I'm getting sick of it. I don't want to know anymore. I just want peace, I just want the confusion to stop.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22998265 - 03/12/16 02:10 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

No one has it figured out. The world is madness. You shouldn't be afraid of uncertainy - play with your ideas, when a new one comes up play with it too. You can think of anything, and do not have to believe it.

Stop attaching yourself to your ideas! 

Note too that no one here can actually give you advice according to your nneeds. We aren't you.

We are essentially giving advice to ourselves if we were in your situation.

Your situation remains just that - your situation.

After all the confusion and questioning just realise how stupid all of it is. All this worry about what everything means to anyone.

Here you are man, just you.

There is no why. (Signature reference)

But that's just how I deal with my own shit. I can only talk from my point of view, not yours.

Edited by remake (03/12/16 02:45 AM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: remake]
    #22998328 - 03/12/16 02:54 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Honest question here, Thanatos:

Do you find yourself second-guessing actions based on how they make you feel, second-guessed by your battles with solipsism - i.e. "what's the point if there's no intrinsic meaning?"

I ask because I'm trying to get a foundation for where you're at; from the posts I've read I have a hard time understanding anything beyond nihilism (not condescending when I say this, just an observation) from you.

What's the root issue for you here?


--------------------



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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: remake] * 1
    #22998376 - 03/12/16 03:53 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I think the issue here is formal, ie. about intellectual integrity and discipline. Really, I am looking at this thread, and I think what I see in more than one instance, is insincerity. Can we cut the false apologetic bullshit? I don't automatically care what anyone can understand for instance, so don't say sorry, and don't imagine it counts for anything. We do this for ourselves and our intelligibility of things isn't generally important as anyone might think.

I am posting this for anyone's interest.  People looking for a challenge: you can understand what solipsism is, as a philosophical construct. You can begin to take responsibility for yourself. These posts have been edited (albeit on a phone) for clarity.

In regards to this topic, as well as most facile nihilistic objections, I have no more patience. Sorry to be a little surly, but I understand how people get tired of this. I am beginning to understand Divided Quantum's suggestion of a psychological label of these attitudes to keep things in order. I don't see sincere intellectual inquiry.

It is not too difficult read and understand Descartes argument for the place of cognition, "I think therefore I am". Those words have their context in In Discourse on Method. Use these posts as an aid in understanding what the place of a conscious subject (subjectivity) is. Take the time and man up.

Quote:

Shake off the guilt trip (often impressed by others as a "psychological" problem). Solipsism is a genuine philosophical problem, and thoughtful people in the modern world will will recognize this in certain ways.

If they do recognize it, or what the conditions of solipsism really are, they will at the same time realize the seperation and alienation is usually not fundamental.

You live in a culture that values and irresponsibly asserts the place of a mentality and intellect as the basis of existence. You yourself, say you are contained to mental contents in solipsism. Well, where is this supposed place of the mind, or intellect? Could you point to it?

Maybe you can imagine its roundabout location around an inch or two behind your eyes. But don't look just to its place so approximately and dogmatically; consider, have you ever observed yourself think? Well, maybe leave that query also, to the meditation practice, or your gurus to ask you...

The question I would ask, is formally, are there any empirical observations that have been made of a consciousness, or mind, as the place of thinking? There has been a whole lot said, a lot of rationalizations people have made about there being a consciousness, or where it is, but nobody has observed a conscious entity, that is demarked and contained.

Likewise the broader foundation of modern western intellectual values, namely, the one that asserts the basis of "intellectual", is not itself just intellectual. For example, in the same provision just suggested, what is this supposed conscious "subject"/subjectivity we each "are"? Again do not consider it dogmatically, but consider what is meant by the word "subject" and look for it.

Is subjectivity, just the imagined "place" of you or I, that sets us up in a general way to relate to a world, or consensus of objectivity? What does subjectum mean?

Purportedly, above all, subjectivity is a place in these affairs (in one sense that it has been suggested that something has to have its place) but I just asked fairly, what is this subject we are.

A subject is supposed to be something we genuinely inquire into, and so when people mark subjectivity as the basis of inquiry... do we sincerely inquire into it? What would we inquire to? Since Aristotle, a subject itself opened particularly to knowledge. A tree is a subject of inquiry, or a flower, or a book, because in marking them as subjects they are things that open to us, and show us the way they are, in themselves. The "subject" of a sentence opens to what is said of it, (in syllogistic logic for instance)

People today seem to be convinced by the relavence of this, as the importance of a "subject". Yet are conscious subjects generally like that? And the critical question for the practicing solipsist would be, why (in what sense) do we call the subject "we are" a subject? I would ask, because my doubt doesn't stop at "I think", nor does it arrive. I am in doubt there is such a thing.

To get to it, it seems to me this notion arises in part, as a rationalization, because one philosopher in a particular moment of history, (Descartes) suggested, that all things may be doubted, but that oneself thinks. The argument goes cogito ergo sum, I think therefore I am. This is what is supposedly indubitable.

One thinks, therefore one is, and of course, this is compared to everything which was found comparably only in provision of doubt. All the subjects of knowledge heretofore considered  and senses themselves, are possible to doubt. Descartes suggested this doubting in certain means, and provisions, to ground the "certain foundation of the sciences".

Hence in that proposed fashion we speak in generality of a subject we are, as the place of thinking and doubting, and this thoughtful doubt is prior to and conditioning the possibility of engaging actual subjects in the physical world, ie. what we can know (subjects of knowledge). In this sense, the world does not open to us in itself, but in our conditional subjective perceptions.

Interestingly, we can note, Descartes never reconciled this purportedly substantive subject of the mind (a " thinking thing") with the subject of the world. And here is the kicker - that is itself the constitution of a mental and physical division as the basis of all things (when that was supposed to be a foundation). The essence and consistency of this argument, (or rather inconsistency) is solipsism, a way of doubting to a point where one is just down to one's cognitive content.

You can read all about it here (And I recommend reading the original source of this argument "I think therefore I am" too)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discourse_on_the_Method

Hope this is helpful. Existential malaise is not just easily cured. This response may be a bit formal, respectively, but one has to be as formal as what one wishes to critique. It is possible to construct the conditions of solipsism in this way to understand it. Then maybe it is possible to avoid vesting in it. 

But the best way to get out of solipsism is to value your subjective experiences and senses and feelings, rather than formalize them as the basis of some ill begotten notion of certain knowledge to seek their validation. People might call you dumb for this (I have heard it from the cognitively centered) but being just physical and in your senses, and then intellectual, is no foul. Best luck.




Quote:



I'm sorry, but I can never understand any of your posts. It's like I'm reading them and the point you make just goes right over my head. Kind of like how I can't read philosophy books without getting lost after a few pages. The writing confuses me.

But as for solipsism, it's just now that I have an issue with it. Prior to that I just began to make other people seem unreal. I found emotions to be weak and caring about other people to be weak as well. Any emotion was squashed. I guess this is just a consequence of that. By shutting my emotions out and not caring about others, I began to not view them as anything. Of course this is just a dodge, a way to escape my emotions and having to care. IF they aren't real why bother right? Deep down I know it's cowardice and dodging but I can't seem to convince myself otherwise.




Quote:

What I am saying is that solipsistic logic, is at the heart of a certain kind of intellectualism and intellectual culture that is supposed to be "detached" from things. This is an assumption and there is nothing "strong" about this argument.

This indocrination could certainly inform your attitude, prior to you recognizing it. I suspect it does. Solipsism (the place of a paradigmatic "intellectual" argument) is itself (appropriately recognized) the insinuation of the mode of detachment you describe.

It is possible to formulate what a solipsistic complex is, in general in this way, too, in terms of traditional sources and assumptions in western philosophy. Maybe at the same time this is also the problem of spirit or psyche, but what can we say in regards to that here? So work with the philosophy.

Philosophical or intellectual culture is somewhat convoluted in terminology. Cartesian Dualism (subjectivism as a basis of skepticism/objectivity) is for this very reason something most people as individuals do not step out of, because they are not able to reconcile with the terms even though they commonly use them. This is perfectly well possible.

I think if people focused on this argument in Discourse on Method, they would wonder why they ever gave the problem or problematic of "subjectivity" any validity at all. At the same time, presently the fundamental and enduring assumption of our "intellectual" western culture, is that we are conscious subjects, met to objects, and it is also impossible to step out of subjectivity in this respect, culturally.

It is impossible to take exception to the "method" of constructing knowledge in these terms of a subject and an object, and if you do, you may likely be accused of an error of reasoning. Or maybe (more likely) you will somewhat unconsciously use this lexicon yourself, which again is quite possible. In any case....

Divided Quantum pretty much summarizes the general point that (relatively) a western person's idea and dominant philosophy of intellectual identity is of a particular culture. As we are looking to it, we can see it is a culture that suggests detachment as general basis of reasoning (ie. Or rather, in the routine delination of subject perceptions, senses, and experiences being described appropriately to meet objective consensus). The idea is to be able to step out of this to recognize it. How this is done is in focused philosophical interrogation.

What are these supposed confines of "subjectivity" which we are either in ourselves or according to our culture, encased in? Even if our perceptions are conditioned, what do we mean by that? What is a subject? Related to and sidelong of this critical question, (that must be left open so far as people believe in conscious subjects) is the general idea of what a solipsistic complex may be generally considered, accordingly. It is subjectivism, and belief in its general validity.

Purportedly there is a "subject" you are, (the conscious subject or subjectivity) that comes prior, and conditions any "subject" that you look to in in the world. That subject (any subject of interest) is accessible down to what I am writing here.

Modern people suppose that these two kinds of subjects are split apart, as the subject of the mind, and the subject of the physical world that is perceived, and also prescribe that they must relate commensurably (through sense) for us to have an appropriate intellectual exchange at the same time. That in a formal sense (conditioning epistemology) is what we look to in Cartesianism. The present cultural conception of knower and known.

What I have suggested, is that the subject you are (the subjectivity of cartesian epistemology) does not exist, and can't be grounded in the world sufficiently to posit as existence. There was never an observation of "I think"; only a rationalization that made that bubble of speculation appear compelling. Moreover that rationalization ends in isolation. Because one takes a skeptical attitude and thinks there is a basis for this they end up in a sphere of content that is irrelavent to the world. The non-existence, or nullity of the subject is represented by subjectivity, as what is "not real". If it was real or in general me tal contents referred to the real, they would be objects. This is how a subject-object philosophy and conjecture really works. It is a formality we assume.

If you feel seperate, as a "conscious subject" what I am attempting to describe is this general structure. It is in an entirely formal way, that we are indoctrinated to take a seperate, synthetic view of things. As compelling as that formal doctrine may be, it is not a compelling theory in itself, that such mental contents exist. The detachment of this mind (which is nothing less than its fundamental conception) is formally taken, and supposedly a strength in intellectual argument. In a way it is, and in another it is not at all. In a way it can be completely facile to believe and insinuate one's own skepticism or intelligibility is generally important. It isn't. But there was never really anything there to lose or feel embarrassed about.

All I or anyone can say is work hard and focus and you'll figure things out in you life, intellectually or otherwise. Life is not just "there" existing, it is a work, after all. I'd venture that is what implies your place in the world, not thoughtful rationalizations.



Edited by Kurt (03/12/16 07:58 AM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt] * 1
    #22998404 - 03/12/16 04:27 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

This following passage is how a conscious subject was conceived as relating to the world, by Renes Descartes. It is sometimes broadly called the "method" of doubt in application, but it is more significantly the formula for an epistemelogical background of science that is by and large assumed (epistemology: "understanding of knowledge"). This argument suggests the place of detachment from involvement with things, that can't be trusted, or seen clearly in consistency, it is solipsism in a commonly accepted proposition. In this same treatise Descartes claims to, but does not successfully reason the world back into existence in any way that is rationally consistent with this principle method he proposed.


Quote:


I had long before remarked that, in relation to practice, it is sometimes necessary to adopt, as if above doubt, opinions which we discern to be highly uncertain, as has been already said; but as I then desired to give my attention solely to the search after truth, I thought that a procedure exactly the opposite was called for, and that I ought to reject as absolutely false all opinions in regard to which I could suppose the least ground for doubt, in order to ascertain whether after that there remained aught in my belief that was wholly indubitable. Accordingly, seeing that our senses sometimes deceive us, I was willing to suppose that there existed nothing really such as they presented to us; and because some men err in reasoning, and fall into paralogisms, even on the simplest matters of geometry, I, convinced that I was as open to error as any other, rejected as false all the reasonings I had hitherto taken for demonstrations; and finally, when I considered that the very same thoughts (presentations) which we experience when awake may also be experienced when we are asleep, while there is at that time not one of them true, I supposed that all the objects (presentations) that had ever entered into my mind when awake, had in them no more truth than the illusions of my dreams. But immediately upon this I observed that, whilst I thus wished to think that all was false, it was absolutely necessary that I, who thus thought, should be somewhat; and as I observed that this truth, I think, therefore I am (COGITO ERGO SUM), was so certain and of such evidence that no ground of doubt, however extravagant, could be alleged by the sceptics capable of shaking it, I concluded that I might, without scruple, accept it as the first principle of the philosophy of which I was in search.

Renes Descartes Discourse on Method, Chapter 4





Because we get to this place of thinking and get stuck there, Descartes suggests the commonly held "relation" (ie. Incommensurable seperation) between mind (res cogitans) and the physically extended world (res extensa). This metaphysical assumption is grounded in epistemelogy, as the relation of a the subject we are (signifying one conscious substance) in relation to the subject of knowledge (the physical world) in a more broadly socio-culturally structured mode of interrelationship.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #22998533 - 03/12/16 06:13 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

that is a compelling post that i still only half grok, tho it is apt to link cartesian skepticism with solipsitic thinking... it is maybe another topic entirely to link solipsism with Western thought, whatever that is supposed to mean, tho i do vaguely have my own ideas about what you are angling at...

i would rather take the track that solipsistic thinking is misguided to begin with. that we are socialised into a human society that provides us with the means, language, ideas and tools to construct a social identity, an identity that we never generated from within ourselves but that we came to inhabit through living and interacting with others. we dont create the world it creates us and we live every breathing moment within it as social agents shaping and being shaped.

hence why Thanatos should get a haircut.

a lone consciousness, especially one so powerful as to create the entire world within its own mind surely would not be affected in any way by something as insignificant as a new hair do. why Thanatos can do anything and i encourage them to do so... give it a try and see if what stops you.. or at least do the hair, let us know how that goes


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt] * 1
    #22998631 - 03/12/16 07:26 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I think the culture you are talking of to begin with is not a blank slate, but something conditioned by philosophical conceptions.

Another summary expression in his Principles of Philosophy, indicates the dogmatic condition upon which after doubting the senses, Descartes reasons that the world exists in itself. What would be best is not to pose a mistaken delination of rationale. People assume he had some argument to get back the senses, (for instance in order for a conscious subject/subjectivity to experience the world and talk about it), but actually he did not at least according to a present secular objective consensus. That is not what Descartes proposed though.

Quote:

Thus by considering that he who strives to doubt of all is unable nevertheless to doubt that he is while he doubts, and that what reasons thus, in not being able to doubt of itself and doubting nevertheless of everything else, is not that which we call our body, but what we name our mind or thought, I have taken the existence of this thought for the first principle, from which I very clearly deduced the following truths, namely, that there is a God who is the author of all that is in the world, and who, being the source of all truth, cannot have created our understanding of such a nature as to be deceived in the judgments it forms of the things of which it possesses a very clear and distinct perception. Those are all the principles of which I avail myself touching immaterial or metaphysical objects, from which I most clearly deduce these other principles of physical or corporeal things, namely, that there are bodies extended in length, breadth, and depth, which are of diverse figures and are moved in a variety of ways.

Principles of Philosophy





In this passage Descartes poses the now commonplace idea of the very physical world he doubted occuring in an interim, the bracketed a priori (prior to being experienced) reception of spatially extended forms.

The idea of physicality as an "extended" form, is not just the physical world itself (as Kant rightly said more constructively) but the way it is seen and appropriated particularly according to linear extensions, ie. in dimensions of "space or time". In the suspended interim of doubt, or in this approximated mental place, two inches behind the eyes, the place where he purportedly begins. Descartes finds the physical world, in such theoretical extention, at least by its post hoc appropriation there. And that is what we do find suggestible.

Hence physicality is ideally calculable, assuming a mathematical or theoretical language, or moving on dimensions, like something on a cartesian coordinate grid, of geometry. To use a common metaphor, this is the physical on a matrix of space and time, upon which phenomena as commensurate to thought, appear.

But now on what basis would we suppose this, if Descartes doubted the senses...

Is geometry of space, as such a "prior" spatial intuition, possible (ie. as well as merely being sufficiently valid) without sense?

Can geometry be had without sense? People will take up this question, and positions on it, but I think it can be seen that this turn toward a place of seeing, thinking and calculating in dimensions of space and time (which is paradigmatic), is itself formally suggested, and by such approximate post hoc appropriation. I think you can just cut through the bullshit.

Really Descartes bears us the scope and possibility of induction, the way we generally talk about senses, in subjects, as ntities contained and bracketed in a certain way, and namely as a certain basis of consensus, ie. in empiricism (philosophy which specifically values sense experience). Descartes' own argument (which is hardly seen today) that makes this possible induction from subjectivity possible, was to suggest in the first place a rational and consistent way to get the world back, and this was neither by token of a conceived god's creation, nor in being thrown into the place of solipsistic skepticism.

Subjectivity is a collectively shared assumption, of possibility of this rational relation to the world, in generality, which creates an interim, and "possibility" for bracketing off the sense experience, so it can be appropriated, not just to the geometrical extention we perceive, but also all together from a third person narrative as such.

For example if I am standing over here, in respect to an object, and you are standing over there, from a third person perspective, it can be understood that both of us (now we are objects) relate to the object in a certain way. We each have different perspectives and it could be observed that we look at the same object. It could be said that what you see, is the same thing with different aspects or perspective to what I see. In such a way, in reasoning post hoc from objects, ie. from the "third person" (which is also often called objectivity, or a "community" of discourse) perception is shared and possibly commensurate to the world at least "intrasubjectively".

This is how Descartes' subject and object epistemology and metaphysics actually works. It is perhaps even more dogmatic today.

What creates the interim that makes all this possible? It is of course the covert insinuation of a third person perspective. Without th8s narrative, Descartes could not have really gotten the world back, after doubting his senses and everything else. In continuation of the same treatise, consider Descartes' "skepticism" after he founds his categories.

Quote:

Such are in sum the principles from which I deduce all other truths. The second circumstance that proves the clearness of these principles is, that they have been known in all ages, and even received as true and indubitable by all men, with the exception only of the existence of God, which has been doubted by some, because they attributed too much to the perceptions of the senses, and God can neither be seen nor touched.





There is subject, and object, but we forget the dogma that really reconciles them, whether it is in god or anything else, as this narrative.

Quote:

wiki reference

Descartes held that all existence consists in three distinct substances, each with its own essence:[4]

matter, possessing extension in three dimensions
mind, possessing self-conscious thought
God, possessing necessary existence





The term subjectivity refers to the eccentric place of solipsism, that we gravitate about so far as we appeal to its meaning. We appropriate meaning to subjectivity, or consider it nullity of meaning just as well as meaning (the meaningful irreality of subjective experience). We pick up such an idea, of subject and object, mind and body, or internal and external, and collectively invest in this removal, based on the interim of their relationships.

I don't really invest alot of care, in whether anyone can make much sense of what I am saying. Well it is nice but I don't feel like clarifying politely whose sense of intelligibility is more self important. I think that is Cartesian rhetoric in fact. Before Descarte's mediating subject of consciousness (subject-ivity), a subject was just present before us and opened itself in itself. Such a subject of knowledge, was what Descartes doubted (in the physical world) and reappropriated as the subject of a mental substance, the subject we are, conditioning and relating to all these "physical" subjects.

I'd say there are lots of ways to get out of solipsism. What I am suggesting is maybe, (well I am sure frankly) the philisophical way out: to construct and deconstruct subjectivism. One way to go, is to never take up the intellectual facade that there are absolutely certain grounds, through doubt, in the first place, in a subject, as if skepticism had some general substance in subjectivity, it suggests.

Generally... It is best to stop pretending that we have taken a strong position just because life seems painful or dark. Sometimes we can all admit, we are just plunged in ignorance, not philosophically superior position.

I tend to think Descartes was just kind of a commonplace dick for his proposed detachment. His philosophy was not a very kind or caring appropriation of animal/biological existence, for instance, and that is not an intellectually superior position. His appropriation of animals as "mindless machines", is a kind of demonstrative of a benchmark of solipsism. We humans vascillate upon our subjective eccentricity, and avoid the solipsism Descartes' rationalism implied. Yet bullshit resounding, Cartesianism, ie. "method of doubt", is THE basic assumption of our modern western philosophy, no less... I don't know in the end what is to be said of this.

It is possible to construct, and possible to deconstruct cultural/philosophical assumptions. That is maybe all that can be said.

Edited by Kurt (03/12/16 07:58 AM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #22998642 - 03/12/16 07:32 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Very interesting indeed.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #22998849 - 03/12/16 09:04 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

your use of the term subject is confusing to me.. you claim to deconstruct cartesian skepticism from what i gather, by saying the  subject of general inquiry into the world (which all us animals do all the time) got all confused when descartes did some self inquiry...

and was like 'all that exists is subjectivity!' (i am the subject (of the self inquiry))

something like that?

if so it is confusing because subject is used as a word in many ways, i dont know if the above hypothetical is really true, or just a bit of word play... subject and object in philosophical terminology is usually used to mean specific things depending on the specific philosopher ime....

anyway, here are some points and counterarguments and ramblings :tongue:

1. taking strong positions shouldnt be spurned in a debate forum... assuming strong philosophical positions is p much the name of the game, no?

2. "It is possible to construct, and possible to deconstruct cultural/philosophical assumptions. That is maybe all that can be said."

firstly this makes it sound like deconstructing assumptions is something that will produce a single obvious answer (which i dont think is true... to me it seems more like a form of argument over the interpretation or origin of the cultural/philosophical assumptions)

also, isnt cartesian scepticism itself an attempt at deconstruction..?

3. the way i see it, to speak very generally and vaguely in my own terms, the problem with 'western thought' is not just skepticism or poorly formed ideas about our own subjectivity.

it is something more like the idea that we are these passive observers of sense data and external objects coming in... like goldfish in a bowl looking at the world around and drawing measurments and making conclusions (a metaphor OC once used in an unrelated post).

the problem for me is the passive detached observer, which should rather be replaced by an active social actor, a being in the world formed by, engaging and acting withing it..

something like that.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22999538 - 03/12/16 01:32 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Solipsism means everything is contained as one self..thus the cured artists is either a solipsist or not...but the objective coyote..is indeed a great artist...

Do you really want to remove your soul from existence... because thats where the word Solip..comes from..the Soul..the Sol, the Sun, your very being in prime abstraction..figured into perfect concretetive argument...the notion of the soul is true..and where it is is indeed in my bed right now...you always have access to this soul...and forever and ever I will be the creator...

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #23000160 - 03/12/16 04:56 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I still can't understand your writing. It feels like I'm reading Chinese with only a few things making sense.

"
I'd say there are lots of ways to get out of solipsism. What I am suggesting is maybe, (well I am sure frankly) the philisophical way out: to construct and deconstruct subjectivism. One way to go, is to never take up the intellectual facade that there are absolutely certain grounds, through doubt, in the first place, in a subject, as if skepticism had some general substance in subjectivity, it suggests. "

I also don't know what you mean by the above statement that you made.

You say there are lots of ways out, but don't really list more than one. I tried to break it down, but it's not really working out. Doubt is seed that once planted is hard to up root. Even now I find myself feeling like I'm watching a movie, my surroundings called into question and doubting their existence. I guess the way to phrase it is that the world isn't real, that sight is a lie. Of course I can't prove that it is in fact a lie and that it's all an illusion, but telling myself that has little effect. Because on the same token I can't prove it to be real and that my vision itself seeing what is real. It seems like every point made against it has an equally true counter point. This is so absurd (the back and forth) that it's almost like they just come down to beliefs.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23000356 - 03/12/16 05:58 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

pls shave your head and then come back and tell us the outside world doesnt exist. it's a very simple and straight forward task.

:shrug::rolleyes:


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23000730 - 03/12/16 07:34 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I just chose to have faith that other people exist and are conscious.

No evidence, and I freely admit it's a leap of faith. But I did it anyway, because the alternative sucked so bad.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: viktor]
    #23000893 - 03/12/16 08:14 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Leap of faith doesn't really work for me. Scientific skepticism and the need for evidence kind of ruined that for me.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23001424 - 03/12/16 10:40 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Oh well. So you choose to suffer then. I'm glad that some people do, as that opens up space for me to feel joy. I suppose I should thank you, really.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23001528 - 03/12/16 11:29 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

You are still going to abide by your dream's rules. I don't understand what you want to gain from affirming your speculation.

How do we know we aren't drifting through our life without having the ability to really make any one choice? The act of thinking in itself predetermined? Who are you really? Can you truly be quantified as a single, seperate identity? Yeah, you did this and that, there and then...but, who are you, right now? What is your personality? Do you allow yourself to be reduced to a single character trait? You surely are complex but - Who are you? We can dig deeper and deeper inside of you, through every memory and find no single clue into who you are. 

Have you tried talking and thinking at the same time? When you look back at your previous posts, do you identify with them? Do you sometimes feel changed and one day realise that everything stays the same?

Even if this is a dream, you are not in control. You aren't anyone.

Realise though that this was all made up and thought of and fabricated based of observations of the world of which I am still vastly ignorant of - I don't and probably shouldn't believe anything I assume.

Just witness the mundane nature within yourself - after all this far-out talk - witness yourself there, somewhere, still not knowing, always not knowing.
Yet you are doing. Moving. Following - something - some motion - somewhere.

Again all made up.

See now yourself wresteling with philosophical questions and imagine the carcus of a mutilated, forgotten child in  Africa - in the middle of the bushveld, under a tree it dies from malnutrition. You don't have to feel bad - I don't. But just imagine it. What does that mean? Does what you think it means matter? Does anything about anything change the fact that the baby is laying there. It happened. You happened. What now?

Again, these are just imagined things. I don't believe in anything. But I know I must/will do and move outside of my head in some way.

Edited by remake (03/12/16 11:39 PM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: viktor]
    #23001549 - 03/12/16 11:47 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Oh well. So you choose to suffer then. I'm glad that some people do, as that opens up space for me to feel joy. I suppose I should thank you, really.




A leap of faith doesn't work on every one. I don't choose this. It's my brain trying to wrack itself over all this. Am I supposed to just believe things exist?


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23001594 - 03/13/16 12:07 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #23001613 - 03/13/16 12:16 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Has anyone here encountered this before? Also how did you manage to get out of it. I'm finding it really hard to move past the whole reality being my dream and people not being real. It's starting to scare me and i don't know how to combat it.



So, you've realized that you are the master which makes the grass green.

(*metaphorically strikes you in the head*)


Feel that?

There is some objectivity but it very likely isn't what we think it is.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: remake]
    #23001614 - 03/13/16 12:17 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Subjective forms are an odyssey, of wonder and delight..and thus is golden sphere true for many life forms on earth...in license and odyssey, you can see that there are other people.. Knowing that your not controlling them is sufficient proof that they aren't you.. Not to say your not at one with them, but each individual life is a controlling station, thus your a person.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #23001786 - 03/13/16 03:59 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Thanatos, are you under the genuine conviction that nothing exists outside of your head...or your consciousness?


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23002995 - 03/13/16 03:20 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:

A leap of faith doesn't work on every one. I don't choose this. It's my brain trying to wrack itself over all this. Am I supposed to just believe things exist?




I try not to believe anything I can't thoroughly prove, which makes solipsism a little troublesome.

But here are some helpful thoughts that helped me out of the rabbit hole:

Let's say that solipsism is the truth, and that everything you've ever known is only a figment of your imagination. that would mean that every math equation ever solved, every universe ever seen, every masterpiece of architecture ever built, every picture ever painted, every song ever written, was all done by you. You'd have to be pretty arrogant to believe that, no?

For me, I just really had to look at the likely hood of it all. I don't find it very hard to believe that this universe is real, things just make a lot of sense to me the way they are. And the fact that people are continually finding things I never could have imagined both beyond the stars and under microscopes, only makes me more confident in my belief.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: circastes]
    #23003014 - 03/13/16 03:30 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Quote:

quinn said:
dearest circastes

the pic in your signature is disturbing. also quite well made.

what the hell is it and why.

please report back



It's a self portrait of me eating a mushroom at my place.

Nah lolz, it's by Theyrada or some group of artists, I can't remember the name exactly. I saw it on Facebook. Not sure what it means entirely but sort of reminds me of Pan's Labrynth. Gives you something to think about.



J. Slattum  is the artist


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: SleepyE]
    #23003016 - 03/13/16 03:32 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

i had solipsism from ingesting a lot of psychedelics but i think it just shows you that you have more influence in your reality than you realize.

i think you are projecting this reality, but so is everyone else.

so i dont think you are alone per say.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: SleepyE]
    #23003252 - 03/13/16 05:02 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SleepyE said:
i had solipsism from ingesting a lot of psychedelics but i think it just shows you that you have more influence in your reality than you realize.

i think you are projecting this reality, but so is everyone else.

so i dont think you are alone per say.




This I witnessed too and came to the same conclusion.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: SleepyE] * 1
    #23004188 - 03/13/16 09:38 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Thanatos, are you under the genuine conviction that nothing exists outside of your head...or your consciousness?



Not really but I find it hard to claw my way out of that perception.

Quote:

SleepyE said:
i had solipsism from ingesting a lot of psychedelics but i think it just shows you that you have more influence in your reality than you realize.

i think you are projecting this reality, but so is everyone else.

so i dont think you are alone per say.




I guess that makes some Sense. If you want to get technical all we see is illusion, because objective reality is beyond our scope to experience.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10] * 2
    #23004470 - 03/13/16 11:12 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

thanatos
Quote:

quinn said:
solipsistic thinking is misguided to begin with. we are socialised into a human society that provides us with the means, language, ideas and tools to construct a social identity, an identity that we never generated from within ourselves but that we came to inhabit through living and interacting with others. we dont create the world it creates us and we live every breathing moment within it as social agents shaping and being shaped.




Quote:

quinn said:
HAIRCUT :waits:




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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #23004895 - 03/14/16 03:13 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:

SleepyE said:
i had solipsism from ingesting a lot of psychedelics but i think it just shows you that you have more influence in your reality than you realize.

i think you are projecting this reality, but so is everyone else.

so i dont think you are alone per say.




This I witnessed too and came to the same conclusion.




Simultaneous reality projection by individuated consciousness packets :thumbup:.

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Thanatos, are you under the genuine conviction that nothing exists outside of your head...or your consciousness?



Not really but I find it hard to claw my way out of that perception...




That only your consciousness, or your mind exists? Which one, just for clarity?


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23006459 - 03/14/16 04:13 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Aren't they the same thing really?


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23007342 - 03/14/16 08:33 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

So what then is your opinion about other people..who seem to run their own lives without your control...are they just dreams reacting from your Subconscious or somethin?

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #23008001 - 03/14/16 11:40 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
So what then is your opinion about other people..who seem to run their own lives without your control...are they just dreams reacting from your Subconscious or somethin?




We supposedly it's all just part of the act. I don't have to have control. That's the theory anyway. But either way I don't know for sure if me and everyone else is illusion or real.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23008265 - 03/15/16 02:05 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Aren't they the same thing really?




Fail.

You poor, benighted fool.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: viktor]
    #23008285 - 03/15/16 02:17 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I think you have failed. Consciousness is just awareness. It doesn't make a difference. Awareness doesn't break an illusion of there is one, it can't prove the existence of something or someone. It's the mind. It's what interprets what awareness brings. But even it cannot tell or prove if reality is illusion or real.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23008301 - 03/15/16 02:37 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Awareness can prove the existence of awareness.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: viktor]
    #23008310 - 03/15/16 02:52 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I would say most people just associate mind with biological workings of the body, and consciousness itself as something extra beyond mind.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23008431 - 03/15/16 05:18 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I think so too. Thanatos doesn't appear to recognise a difference, though.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23008453 - 03/15/16 05:50 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I would say most people just associate mind with biological workings of the body, and consciousness itself as something extra beyond mind.



I'd change this slightly. I'd say 'awareness itself as something extra beyond mind' - cause even consciousness seems locatable within the mind, within the body. But where the fuck is awareness? From what I have experienced and read, that lies beyond even consciousness.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23008458 - 03/15/16 05:53 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I would say most people just associate mind with biological workings of the body, and consciousness itself as something extra beyond mind.



I'd change this slightly. I'd say 'awareness itself as something extra beyond mind' - cause even consciousness seems locatable within the mind, within the body. But where the fuck is awareness? From what I have experienced and read, that lies beyond even consciousness.




I can't say I disagree with you here, but I've found in my studies and experience that the more I try and breakdown, separate, and compartmentalize consciousness/awareness/mind, the more that problems and inconsistencies begin to arise for me. It could just be a matter of semantics, as well.

As long as your experience and understanding is internally consistent and lines up, that's all that really matters.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23009515 - 03/15/16 01:08 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

So what? What good does that do?


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23009699 - 03/15/16 02:10 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

lol i like how you keep ignoring my posts... almost like i dont exist


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23009998 - 03/15/16 03:56 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
lol i like how you keep ignoring my posts... almost like i dont exist




Maybe he's already bald :lol:


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23010618 - 03/15/16 07:41 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
lol i like how you keep ignoring my posts... almost like i dont exist




Because I don't take obviously stupid advice.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23011260 - 03/15/16 11:06 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Awareness is true...but its whats in it thats the problem..

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10] * 2
    #23011528 - 03/16/16 01:49 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

how is it stupid advice? i think i justified my pov pretty clearly

besides, if you don't believe other ppl exist what dif will it make? at least do it to prove it to yourself


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23011576 - 03/16/16 02:48 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
So what? What good does that do?




It doesn't do any good other than what you feel it's worth, and we all know you don't find any worth so it's most likely going to have little to none for you.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23013518 - 03/16/16 04:36 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
So what? What good does that do?




It doesn't do any good other than what you feel it's worth, and we all know you don't find any worth so it's most likely going to have little to none for you.




Awareness being true has little worth. It simply is. It doesn't solve the problem of solipsism. Awareness is useless in an illusion. Even then oi can't prove awareness, only sensation.



Quote:

quinn said:
how is it stupid advice? i think i justified my pov pretty clearly

besides, if you don't believe other ppl exist what dif will it make? at least do it to prove it to yourself




It is stupid because it doesn't solve anything. Your justification was also sloppy. I already dress the way I want regardless of what others think.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23014422 - 03/16/16 08:27 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
It is stupid because it doesn't solve anything.



im willing to wager it will. if you go into it with an open mind and honestly reflect on the feelings that come up and where they are coming from i think it could change your mind.. and don't take this lightly a hairstyle change can be a big deal.. sure some ppl do it often but some stick with roughly the same thing their entire life! nothing to be scoffed at..

you could post your haircut experience in detail, like a trip report.. all you had going on in your head through it.. that would take guts imo, i doubt i could

Quote:

Your justification was also sloppy.



yeah, how so?

Quote:

I already dress the way I want regardless of what others think.



lol yeah right


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn] * 1
    #23014504 - 03/16/16 08:46 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

You're probably onto a losing battle with this one quinn...

I say that not because I disagree with you, but because so many here have tried and failed to introduce Thantos to any other way of seeing things than his own. It just goes round in circles.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23014632 - 03/16/16 09:14 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
It is stupid because it doesn't solve anything.



im willing to wager it will. if you go into it with an open mind and honestly reflect on the feelings that come up and where they are coming from i think it could change your mind.. and don't take this lightly a hairstyle change can be a big deal.. sure some ppl do it often but some stick with roughly the same thing their entire life! nothing to be scoffed at..

you could post your haircut experience in detail, like a trip report.. all you had going on in your head through it.. that would take guts imo, i doubt i could

Quote:

Your justification was also sloppy.



yeah, how so?

Quote:

I already dress the way I want regardless of what others think.



lol yeah right




It won't. I cut my hair the way I like because I like it that way. I don't care what styles people want me to do. I could go bald and wouldn't give a damn, it wouldn't change anything (in fact I did because the barber made a mistake about what I wanted), but I just shrugged it off.

I already wear stuff I like because I like it. I don't care what people think. Only idiots think a hairstyle change is a big deal as well as clothing choice.

So that's why I cal your advice stupid because it's like telling someone to do what they're already doing and hope things change.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23014667 - 03/16/16 09:17 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

BOOM!


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23015486 - 03/17/16 03:01 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Perma-neg.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23015619 - 03/17/16 04:51 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Thanatos operates under the presumption that his reality is real; that's the solipsism. find the unreal, find the truth, find meaning. then solipsism doesn't obtrude.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23015690 - 03/17/16 06:13 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Thanatos operates under the presumption that his reality is real; that's the solipsism. find the unreal, find the truth, find meaning. then solipsism doesn't obtrude.




No, it's thinking that reality might be an illusion and getting half baked advice on solving that.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23015697 - 03/17/16 06:20 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I really think this thread should end here.

Thantos, you asked for an aid/proof/help/whatever to understand why you see people this way, and we have tried our best. Lots of people have made time and effort to try and help, and you have rejected every suggestion we have put forward.

The only 'aid' you'll find to your view now is in yourself. I hope you find the determination to try and push through your fixed views. It takes work, effort, and willingness to face fear. We're all in a constant state of flux so I have faith that it might happen, god knows I've seen my views flip a 180 in my time.

Good luck man.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23015719 - 03/17/16 06:33 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think you understand the problem. No one here has really given advice to help get over solipsism. It's just vague "you'll figure it out" which is just about the worst advice you can give


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23015726 - 03/17/16 06:39 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Thanatos operates under the presumption that his reality is real; that's the solipsism. find the unreal, find the truth, find meaning. then solipsism doesn't obtrude.




No, it's thinking that reality might be an illusion and getting half baked advice on solving that.



that almost makes no sense. what is "it"?

your presumption? your reality? your thinking? your solipsism? truth? meaning?

what is the "it" here that you speak of?

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23015728 - 03/17/16 06:42 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Life doesn't come with a step-by-step guide Thantos. WTF do you think we're ALL doing here other than 'trying to figure it out'??? Are you seriously so misguided that you think anyone else has the right answers for YOU?

Make some effort, face your fears (and it seems obvious that yours are that it's actually NOT the way you think it is) and learn a little. Stop being lazy and expecting everyone else to do the work for you. You're just draining everyone else here to support your own misguided views. Vampire stylee.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 2
    #23015774 - 03/17/16 07:10 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Life doesn't come with a step-by-step guide Thantos. WTF do you think we're ALL doing here other than 'trying to figure it out'??? Are you seriously so misguided that you think anyone else has the right answers for YOU?

Make some effort, face your fears (and it seems obvious that yours are that it's actually NOT the way you think it is) and learn a little. Stop being lazy and expecting everyone else to do the work for you. You're just draining everyone else here to support your own misguided views. Vampire stylee.




This post is dead on, but futile. He thinks effort is pointless, hence his cyclical-reinforcement for not putting in effort.

He will retort with attacking your definition of lazy, by claiming it doesn't exist and you're thus the delusional one for putting value on higher ideals with "no proof" - which for him will never be palatable beyond strict deterministic positivist materialism proofs that further ignore the transcendental nature of this matrix reality.

I agree to an extent on the vampire analogy; my reality is amazing because I stopped entertaining misanthropic philosophy and instead began engaging reality head on 24/7.

Opportunities for income appeared, my bank account started filling up, my relationships got better, and I have more friends and colleagues than I ever "attracted" in my stone cold cynicism toward humanity. Imagine that.

More action and less thinking will eventually prove to you that your initial world view is false and misguided. This goes for all positions on the spectrum, but especially so for the vehemently cynical.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23015785 - 03/17/16 07:17 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

true. i think i would know. i am a cynical fucking bastard.

but at least i'm rational.

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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23015867 - 03/17/16 08:15 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

There's nothing wrong with cynicism IMHO as long as it's not creating objective negative outcomes in your life, work, relationships, etc.

Hell, I'm incredibly cynical in regards to people's obsession with sports, teams, and athletes. I could rant and rave on that all day :cool:.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23015872 - 03/17/16 08:17 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

well, think of it this way...(this is what i love)...they are simply admiring...admiring what they'll probably never do.

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23015927 - 03/17/16 08:51 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Really great post LS.

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
He will retort with attacking your definition of lazy, by claiming it doesn't exist and you're thus the delusional one for putting value on higher ideals with "no proof" - which for him will never be palatable beyond strict deterministic positivist materialism proofs that further ignore the transcendental nature of this matrix reality.



Yep, great surmisation of the circles we've been going round in here. 'transcendental nature of this matrix reality' - love it. That's what I see when I look hard enough.

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I agree to an extent on the vampire analogy; my reality is amazing because I stopped entertaining misanthropic philosophy and instead began engaging reality head on 24/7.



I'd really love to hear more from you regarding your change in view here, because a misanthropy has been troubling me greatly of late. It's like the more loving I become, the more I (feel) I see reality clearly, the more I find the potential of humanity absolutely wasted.

As you may have seen from another post of mine, I'm daily in the heart of the beast, the epitome of anti-humanity and spirituality. Robot world. Whatever.

I steer clear of all media because all it does is feed into my feelings of sorrow about what mankind is doing to itself and the world on a global scale. I can't ignore what's in front of me, but I try my best to be at peace with it. Occasionally I am.

So how did you get over that one? Knowing as you surely do how shitty we act as a species, but also knowing as you surely do that there's love buried in the heart of each individual, even if it is little realised?

Like yourself, as I focused more and more of my efforts on being kind, loving and compassionate as I can be, life has brought progressively better people and situations into my experience here. I love many many people. But I just can't shake the feeling that I fucking despise my species as a whole.

Any advice/experience greatly appreciated on this man.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #23016061 - 03/17/16 09:46 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Really great post LS.

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
He will retort with attacking your definition of lazy, by claiming it doesn't exist and you're thus the delusional one for putting value on higher ideals with "no proof" - which for him will never be palatable beyond strict deterministic positivist materialism proofs that further ignore the transcendental nature of this matrix reality.



Yep, great surmisation of the circles we've been going round in here. 'transcendental nature of this matrix reality' - love it. That's what I see when I look hard enough.

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I agree to an extent on the vampire analogy; my reality is amazing because I stopped entertaining misanthropic philosophy and instead began engaging reality head on 24/7.



I'd really love to hear more from you regarding your change in view here, because a misanthropy has been troubling me greatly of late. It's like the more loving I become, the more I (feel) I see reality clearly, the more I find the potential of humanity absolutely wasted.

As you may have seen from another post of mine, I'm daily in the heart of the beast, the epitome of anti-humanity and spirituality. Robot world. Whatever.

I steer clear of all media because all it does is feed into my feelings of sorrow about what mankind is doing to itself and the world on a global scale. I can't ignore what's in front of me, but I try my best to be at peace with it. Occasionally I am.

So how did you get over that one? Knowing as you surely do how shitty we act as a species, but also knowing as you surely do that there's love buried in the heart of each individual, even if it is little realised?

Like yourself, as I focused more and more of my efforts on being kind, loving and compassionate as I can be, life has brought progressively better people and situations into my experience here. I love many many people. But I just can't shake the feeling that I fucking despise my species as a whole.

Any advice/experience greatly appreciated on this man.




I'm first going to address my change in view here. I will answer the other portions of your question after that.

I don't typically make longer posts like this, as I like to be succinct - but this requires a bit of back story to fully appreciate and grasp.

To start, those are all very good questions with a mixed combination of good and uncomfortable answers.

What I'm talking about here is making your life suck less each day. I went through some serious personal existential transformation that lead me to where I am now.

I strive very much to be honest and straight forward in my pursuits. I'm a "brass tacks" kind of guy; what I'm interested in with in general is results.

All that matters is what produces results. It doesn't matter what some moron with 100,000 posts on a message board says to you. All that matters is what actually works and produces results for you. I know ethics will vary from person to person, but I personally am in no way shape or form condoning the harming of anyone and rationalizing that in some insane manner (no solipsists/sociopathic relativist BS here).

Whether it's health and fitness or applied philosophy, I enjoy experimenting with variables in my life. Particularly the conscious application of my thoughts, emotions, and (most importantly and absolutely key for this process here) my actions.

The biggest and most immediate relief from matrix life for me has been becoming self-employed. I'm a health and fitness trainer and I swear my life has been pure synchronicity since about June of last year. I got certified and began working out of a good friend's studio gym, and my clientele have been growing and providing me with the means to no longer need to suffer through tolerating a day job.

I wasted so much time from about 2010 - 2015 forcing myself to work day jobs because I was convinced there was no other way to pay the bills. College drove me nuts as I'm not a schooling type; I've always been free thinking with a skeptical mind toward everything. I dropped out of college twice. Needless to say, I was pretty jaded and cynical toward everything and everyone.

I've always enjoyed things that work. Processes you can replicate and create an effect with. Chemistry. Diet. Nutrition. Muscle science, etc.

What all of this rambling is getting at is, I got very, VERY fucking sick of living in circles.

Everything about traditional values felt very wrong to me, like there had to be a better way that I just was ignorant of. Every single day was soul grinding just to earn money to continue doing more of the same. That was the absolute lowest point in my life, and I learned a LOT during that period.

I've always loved and read philosophy of all kinds, but of course I love things that actually work. My cynicism peaked, and I literally said "fuck this, I'm going to LIVE with what empowers me, regardless of consequence". I swear it was a turning point that day; I must have hit the right octave of "intention" or something with the universe, because I've just been following synchronicity more or less on a daily basis. Keeping a positive mindset stops becoming a conscious burden in the present moment, and you just start enjoying life as a consequence of all the awesome ways shit starts unfolding.

One of the BIGGEST realizations that hit me hard was that of seeing how nothing started going my way until I provided the means for synchronicity to work through.

What I mean by this is, I can now see how forcing myself to tolerate mundane shit that wasn't working for me, while trying to get things going on the side, was really draining me of the creative energy I'd need to sort my shit out. So I removed the negative stimulus, and quit my boring day job as soon as I got certified. I told myself I'd do anything and everything I need to in order to not have to experience that shit ever again and it's been incredible ever since.

I only use cannabis regularly. I've only tripped once (shrooms) and it was pretty much everything I was expecting on a certain level. I know one day I will build the experience to try other compounds, but for now everything is just flowing so well. I do not bullshit you guys in the solipsism thread or the other "cynical" threads on here; the one time that I tripped I realized there is a higher dimensional and causal relationship between your attitude (a combination of your mental state and emotional output at any given moment) and external experiences.

We all know that the inner and outer are linked; it's absolutely absurd to deny this when your experiences start becoming hilariously serendipitous and beneficial for not just you, but EVERYONE involved.This has been my experience so far and I've noticed a clear correlation between synchronicity picking up and dropping off depending on where my mood is at any given moment. It's like you begin creating your own little slice of this reality where things just start working out well.

Anyone that rationalizes a cynical and negative outlook as being the most rational and intelligent and scientific position to me will be met with abrupt laughter. What we call modern science is great for many things, but it has no jurisdiction once we start talking about how you personally consciously and deliberately begin using your faculties. Your state of mind. Your consciousness itself. There is being book smart, and then there is understanding the nature of reality. I do not claim to be a magician or a mystic or any of that crap, I just like "dealing with the raw data", as McKenna would say.

AFTER I saw this for myself in altered state, I came across the "Law of Attraction" and immediately saw that it was commercialized propaganda BS preying on neophytes with no experience. Obviously not everyone is going to take shrooms, nor most likely have the same experiences that I've had. These books made sense business wise, even though they are misleading and prey on people's ignorance of other vital factors.

From my altered state I saw geometric models that were implying a sort of hierarchical structure of reality, almost like gears. That's the best way to describe it. "Higher gears" were affecting "lower gears". I was also seeing my own attitude cause things to manifest during the trip, and realized the inner is connected to the outer.

When sober, this level of reality moves much slower than when tripping but the same principles apply; your attitude "attracts" experiences. Attitude can also be described more simply as the current state of your consciousness.

Are you excited, sad, mad, indifferent? Apathetic? What are you "broadcasting"?

There is a definite feedback loop whereby your attitude pretty much determines the nature of your experiences. That's as simple as I can put it and I accept that I sound bat-shit insane in the process. Take what you will and leave the rest for another time for correlation.

TL;DR: my life has become an explosion of synchronicity since applying information I've always felt was true, in combination with what I saw on a shroom trip. My life started getting amazing once I started doing what I really enjoy.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

Edited by Loaded Shaman (03/17/16 09:58 AM)

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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23016165 - 03/17/16 10:33 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Your attitude doesn't attract anything. That's just nonsense about the law of attraction. The same with synchronicity.

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Life doesn't come with a step-by-step guide Thantos. WTF do you think we're ALL doing here other than 'trying to figure it out'??? Are you seriously so misguided that you think anyone else has the right answers for YOU?

Make some effort, face your fears (and it seems obvious that yours are that it's actually NOT the way you think it is) and learn a little. Stop being lazy and expecting everyone else to do the work for you. You're just draining everyone else here to support your own misguided views. Vampire stylee.




This post is dead on, but futile. He thinks effort is pointless, hence his cyclical-reinforcement for not putting in effort.

He will retort with attacking your definition of lazy, by claiming it doesn't exist and you're thus the delusional one for putting value on higher ideals with "no proof" - which for him will never be palatable beyond strict deterministic positivist materialism proofs that further ignore the transcendental nature of this matrix reality.

I agree to an extent on the vampire analogy; my reality is amazing because I stopped entertaining misanthropic philosophy and instead began engaging reality head on 24/7.

Opportunities for income appeared, my bank account started filling up, my relationships got better, and I have more friends and colleagues than I ever "attracted" in my stone cold cynicism toward humanity. Imagine that.

More action and less thinking will eventually prove to you that your initial world view is false and misguided. This goes for all positions on the spectrum, but especially so for the vehemently cynical.




So instead of advice and data I can use the best anyone here has got are vague, idealistic notions? It's no wonder you guys are here.

I ask for advice and get nothing, figures.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.

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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23016191 - 03/17/16 10:49 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Also isn't reading things that only empower you just the equivalent of not challenging your thinking?


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #23016208 - 03/17/16 10:56 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Your attitude doesn't attract anything. That's just nonsense about the law of attraction. The same with synchronicity.


So instead of advice and data I can use the best anyone here has got are vague, idealistic notions? It's no wonder you guys are here.

I ask for advice and get nothing, figures.




With comments like that, Thanatos, it's a wonder why you're even here.  I know you've said you surf this site sheerly out of boredom, but if you're not even going to interact with anyone and give an inch, it's a total waste of time for everyone.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23016453 - 03/17/16 12:26 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, it's really unnecessary Thantos. It's gonna come back to bite you if you carry on like this. I see no reason to let you stay with us when you drain this community and give so little back. Perhaps a short holiday from here would do you good?

Please don't post just through boredom. I'm here to learn and your idle hands are kinda shitting on that for anyone here with the same goal.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23016508 - 03/17/16 12:44 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Also isn't reading things that only empower you just the equivalent of not challenging your thinking?




I'd say people don't necessarily go out with an intent to be positive, so much as they represent and identify with this as part of an ethos, that is holistic.

From what I have observed Thanatos10, you seem to by intellectual pretense, avoid engaging actual principles of reasoning, let alone principled behaviors, which actually do stand, in a certain sense, notwithstanding their actual subjectivity.

To me, (don't take it personally, just an observation) you seem to avoid maintaining a healthy, or decent attitude even with regards to yourself. You are here to indulge that this prerogative of yours is possible. Perhaps it is. Would you like someone to affirm this attitude, and tell you "well done, you proved your point... The world or humanity really is so parasitic... (?) Think about it.

I don't think you can maintain a parasitic attitude with yourself, and yet I wonder if you understand in a positive sense (with your apparent gift for rationalization) that there is indeed philosophy that precedes this intellectual pretense that everything has to be considered a matter of perception, and objective confirmation. An honest question that precedes this existential ennui, might be "What sense of validation are you technically seeking? Can't you observe your rationale Thanatos?

If you want to argue against a principle of maintaining and manifesting a positive attitude, in an honest way, I'd urge you to look where the principle may really lie, preceding characterization that may indeed be subjective. Why not consider Aristotle's suggestion? Why do you go on to pretend you have found a superior " scientific" attitude, in respect to this?

Quote:

Every art and every inquiry, and similarly every action and pursuit, is thought to aim at some good; and for this reason the good has rightly been declared to be that at which all things aim.

Aristotle, Nichomachean Ethics




If Aristotle is right, you can't avoid at least, seeking good outcomes, whether in thought or more manifest intent. You could say, that is how, you are as a biological organism. As a "rational animal" you can also cultivate the potential enjoyment of pleasurable outcomes, as the fruit of your labor. Finally, you can live a healthy and decent existence, and adopt a decency that other people share in, that is a life with principle (ethos, or "character") Of course all this is subjective -"the good"- but you can't avoid that this (valuation) however it is described, as a basis as the way things are, and are made manifest at once.

Even the most skeptical philosophers (Aristotle, Epicurus, Nietzsche etc.) recognize the potential of nobility and excellence, and growth as possible to cultivate and manifest, in a way preceding how they are ethically or morally characterized.

You can either recognize this ethic, as your reality, or not. That is true. It is not a rationalization of what the world is, but how you exist and project into it.

But then start with subjective pleasures, of a ripe and colorful piece of fruit. The redness and cool crisp taste of the apple may not be the same as anyone else's experience, but that experience "is" and we are able to refer to it pretty well, as I am presently. Maybe you can stop hiding from yourself and recognize sensuality and passion as the basis of life, that doesn't need justification?

So the question is still the same. Namely, if you accept how you feel, and yourself for feeling what you do (probably that's the kicker) just on your own terms, (even if it is just your way of seeking out pleasurable subjective experiences), you will recognize an actual basis of your world and reality, and the possibility for cultivation, of living and being in the world.

Of course, there are the absurd reasonings toward the denial of life, and there is some rhetorical legitimacy to these expressions. Nobody is going to tell you to go up to an edge of fallablism here. That's the only truth you are flirting with. Nobody can tell you how to live, or that it is good to. In deed, pleasures are fleeting, and there is much to be skeptical of in a pleasure driven society... But this suggests a true intellectual revolt to such values of the world, in principle, and coming to this. Maybe you would enjoy the writings of Albert Camus...? Haven't people suggested this to you? Have you read The Stranger? It is a novella written in simple prose. It might make you think.

In any case it is a simple statement of truth, an unavoidable facticity, (a biological fact I would venture) that you consciously seek a favorable end or outcome in your rational intents. What does this mean?

The idea is to be holistic about this, if possible, to generally recognize the broader possibilities of being human. There you will only find substantive truths, in being. The world is based on this, not in an affirmed description of what this is. Respect the gift of your rational mind, Thanatos. That is what people are saying.

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23016547 - 03/17/16 12:57 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Anyone that rationalizes a cynical and negative outlook as being the most rational and intelligent and scientific position to me will be met with abrupt laughter. What we call modern science is great for many things, but it has no jurisdiction once we start talking about how you personally consciously and deliberately begin using your faculties. Your state of mind. Your consciousness itself. There is being book smart, and then there is understanding the nature of reality.



Quoted this just because it applies so perfectly to the theme of this thread.

Now for an epic response (I'd like to thank the coporation I work for for paying me whilst I wrote this)..

Man thank you so much for that post, it was absolutely fascinating and resonated with me on many levels. I absolutely agree with everything you said - as in, my experinces and conclusions definitely line up with your own.

It makes me wonder how old you are.. I only say this as I came to that same conclusion about the job a little under a year ago now and I'm 32. I built this massively successfull career in IT and made it to the top level (banking) over 14 years, earn loads of money, only to now look at it and realise it was all for shit. It means nothing. I help money, and I help very rich people get even richer. That's it. That's the sum total of the worth of me dedicating 10+ hours a day to this shit and, as you found, finding I'm dedicating so much time to this I struggle to fit things I want into my time. Thank fuck the money is good.

Although saying that it's just caused more complications. 5 motorbikes, a luxury car, and I was less than a month away from buying a very expensive house before my wife exploded and had to go to rehab. In hindsight, I dodged a big fucking bullet there as with that mortgage hanging off my neck I don't think I would've been able to make it out of this business.

So I've decided to retrain as a therapist (although as a weight trainer of 14 years, I'm wondering about your line of work.. I have a few friends that do it and it seems wonderful) so that I can eventually set up a private practice and work for myself (read: not get assfucked by some fucking corporation). Like you though, I'm not good at classroom learning - it sends me to sleep. I'm an analyst by nature, need to get stuck into things and be hands on. Plus it takes 6+ years to get qualified in that field, so I'm a little intimidated by it all. To top it off I'll be re-locating to Australia in the next year or so as have a passport and it's always been the long term plan. Yeah, it's safe to say I'm pretty much scared shitless by the looming/impending massive changes in my life. You've definitely boosted my resolve though, thank you.

All I want to do is help people, it's all I've ever wanted deep down. I wanted to be a fireman most of my life but those guys get paid shit and I have expensive tastes/hobbies. I have little doubt when I start following my dream (hopefully I'll make it there by 40) things will begin to flow in the kind of manner they have for you.

I'm quite familiar with synchronicity in the manner you mentioned, although I haven't seen it a great deal over the last couple of years. I've been depressed a lot of the time and escaping into drugs at others. Correlates with the point at which my wife started to self implode... The two years prior to that though, when I first got together with my wife.. wow. Blew me away. I was 28 at the time and I was 18 when I first got the feeling that life will 'guide' you if you really look/listen (I used to say 'keep your ear to the ground'). And it did somewhat. It kicked my ass a lot cause I was a dick back then and it made me become a much better person. But then the first night with my wife.. and the synchronicities that followed. Literally I had no idea that that level of it was possible. That was really what opened me to the start of a true spiritual path - a move away from a nagging suspicion to a religious level of belief in it all.

Writing it down now it kinda makes me wonder if I was a bit love crazy back then but if I think about it I think I was just so full of love (which I believe is in somehow the 'energy' of the universe at some base level..) I think I was just attuned to it all at the right frequency.

She's been out of my life for 7 months now and as gut wrenchingly painful as it's been at times I'm very glad it happened. I was basing that level of love and happiness on another person. Of course that's unsustainable!! I see that now. It has to come from within, not without. So self love has been growing and my love and compassion for all else has been growing too (with the single exception of our species as a whole of course!). On the days when my self love is strong, I feel like such a rich man, so grateful for being on this path and for the little breadcrumbs life has used to guide me. You sound like you feel the same.

I mean I guess the synchronicity might always have been there at the same level - it's just how attuned to it I am that dictates if I notice it. Things like books that are recommended perhaps, as they have been a very influential 'rudder' in terms of my direction. The people that I find, I am increasingly attuned with. Like we walk such similar paths we can (spiritually) stride side by side and they give me a certain 'resolve' that yes, I am on the right path. I am going in the right direction.

I even got it into my head that I wanted to go on retreat this year for the first time (have stayed at monasteries a lot but never been on formal retreat) and hopefully to find a teacher (I feel the time is right) and lo and behold a friend just passed me details, and I've just booked a place in May.

From my experiences, yours, and others who I value, it definitely seems like there's reflection, mirroring, law of attraction creating type stuff that we're all capable of - we just have to be aware, have faith, to practice, and to make the right moves. The right actions, as you say. Since we cannot control thought, they're the only thing that you can control, I guess that's why it's so important that we get them right. Pretty much what the spiritual leaders of history like Jesus, Buddha, etc, said all that time ago (metaphorically).

Before this goes tl;dr as well, I'm really curious; do you believe in anything akin to 'enlightenment'? Do you forsee a deeper connection and understanding of all things coming your way in your lifetime? Or are you just happy and appreciative of what comes your way?

And on a slightly more personal level, do you still have really bad days? Or has your energetic baseline increased since you started following your dream?

Actually, I'm gonna PM you.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #23016628 - 03/17/16 01:35 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kurt said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Also isn't reading things that only empower you just the equivalent of not challenging your thinking?




I'd say people don't necessarily go out with an intent to be positive, so much as they represent and identify with this as part of an ethos, that is holistic.

From what I have observed Thanatos10, you seem to by intellectual pretense, avoid engaging actual principles of reasoning, let alone principled behaviors, which actually do stand, in a certain sense, notwithstanding their actual subjectivity.

To me, (don't take it personally, just an observation) you seem to avoid maintaining a healthy, or decent attitude even with regards to yourself. You are here to indulge that this prerogative of yours is possible. Perhaps it is. Would you like someone to affirm this attitude, and tell you "well done, you proved your point... The world or humanity really is so parasitic... (?) Think about it.

I don't think you can maintain a parasitic attitude with yourself, and yet I wonder if you understand in a positive sense (with your apparent gift for rationalization) that there is indeed philosophy that precedes this intellectual pretense that everything has to be considered a matter of perception, and objective confirmation. An honest question that precedes this existential ennui, might be "What sense of validation are you technically seeking? Can't you observe your rationale Thanatos?

If you want to argue against a principle of maintaining and manifesting a positive attitude, in an honest way, I'd urge you to look where the principle may really lie, preceding characterization that may indeed be subjective. Why not consider Aristotle's suggestion? Why do you go on to pretend you have found a superior " scientific" attitude, in respect to this?

Quote:

Every art and every inquiry, and similarly every action and pursuit, is thought to aim at some good; and for this reason the good has rightly been declared to be that at which all things aim.

Aristotle, Nichomachean Ethics




If Aristotle is right, you can't avoid at least, seeking good outcomes, whether in thought or more manifest intent. You could say, that is how, you are as a biological organism. As a "rational animal" you can also cultivate the potential enjoyment of pleasurable outcomes, as the fruit of your labor. Finally, you can live a healthy and decent existence, and adopt a decency that other people share in, that is a life with principle (ethos, or "character") Of course all this is subjective -"the good"- but you can't avoid that this (valuation) however it is described, as a basis as the way things are, and are made manifest at once.

Even the most skeptical philosophers (Aristotle, Epicurus, Nietzsche etc.) recognize the potential of nobility and excellence, and growth as possible to cultivate and manifest, in a way preceding how they are ethically or morally characterized.

You can either recognize this ethic, as your reality, or not. That is true. It is not a rationalization of what the world is, but how you exist and project into it.

But then start with subjective pleasures, of a ripe and colorful piece of fruit. The redness and cool crisp taste of the apple may not be the same as anyone else's experience, but that experience "is" and we are able to refer to it pretty well, as I am presently. Maybe you can stop hiding from yourself and recognize sensuality and passion as the basis of life, that doesn't need justification?

So the question is still the same. Namely, if you accept how you feel, and yourself for feeling what you do (probably that's the kicker) just on your own terms, (even if it is just your way of seeking out pleasurable subjective experiences), you will recognize an actual basis of your world and reality, and the possibility for cultivation, of living and being in the world.

Of course, there are the absurd reasonings toward the denial of life, and there is some rhetorical legitimacy to these expressions. Nobody is going to tell you to go up to an edge of fallablism here. That's the only truth you are flirting with. Nobody can tell you how to live, or that it is good to. In deed, pleasures are fleeting, and there is much to be skeptical of in a pleasure driven society... But this suggests a true intellectual revolt to such values of the world, in principle, and coming to this. Maybe you would enjoy the writings of Albert Camus...? Haven't people suggested this to you? Have you read The Stranger? It is a novella written in simple prose. It might make you think.

In any case it is a simple statement of truth, an unavoidable facticity, (a biological fact I would venture) that you consciously seek a favorable end or outcome in your rational intents. What does this mean?

The idea is to be holistic about this, if possible, to generally recognize the broader possibilities of being human. There you will only find substantive truths, in being. The world is based on this, not in an affirmed description of what this is. Respect the gift of your rational mind, Thanatos. That is what people are saying.




I just seek to understand something. I wouldn't call that favorable as it just leads to some inconvenient truths.

But sensuality and passion are for fools, the base folk. Those with intellect don't stoop to such things in life but need more than just base sense life. I won't be those fools.

As for me I exist to cut and tear myself. I couldn't muster the guts for suicide so I unknowingly orchestrate a series of events that will inevitably lead to my end without any chance for me to stop it. I have known this to be the case since I was a child, I was not meant to live or have a future.

My rational mind has gotten me into more trouble than it's worth. It's why every time I read philosophy I end up getting twisted and stuck for months, I can't make sense of it. It's not a gift, it's a curse. Knowledge is a curse. Yet it's a pain I continuously inflict to myself. It's also why I don't understand anything you write.

How can you find truth based in reality if you don't know if it's real or not? There can be no in uncertainty and even less so in illusion.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.

Edited by Thanatos10 (03/17/16 01:39 PM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23016630 - 03/17/16 01:35 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

How does that even deal with solipsism anyway?


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23016895 - 03/17/16 03:19 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

Kurt said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Also isn't reading things that only empower you just the equivalent of not challenging your thinking?




I'd say people don't necessarily go out with an intent to be positive, so much as they represent and identify with this as part of an ethos, that is holistic.

From what I have observed Thanatos10, you seem to by intellectual pretense, avoid engaging actual principles of reasoning, let alone principled behaviors, which actually do stand, in a certain sense, notwithstanding their actual subjectivity.

To me, (don't take it personally, just an observation) you seem to avoid maintaining a healthy, or decent attitude even with regards to yourself. You are here to indulge that this prerogative of yours is possible. Perhaps it is. Would you like someone to affirm this attitude, and tell you "well done, you proved your point... The world or humanity really is so parasitic... (?) Think about it.

I don't think you can maintain a parasitic attitude with yourself, and yet I wonder if you understand in a positive sense (with your apparent gift for rationalization) that there is indeed philosophy that precedes this intellectual pretense that everything has to be considered a matter of perception, and objective confirmation. An honest question that precedes this existential ennui, might be "What sense of validation are you technically seeking? Can't you observe your rationale Thanatos?

If you want to argue against a principle of maintaining and manifesting a positive attitude, in an honest way, I'd urge you to look where the principle may really lie, preceding characterization that may indeed be subjective. Why not consider Aristotle's suggestion? Why do you go on to pretend you have found a superior " scientific" attitude, in respect to this?

Quote:

Every art and every inquiry, and similarly every action and pursuit, is thought to aim at some good; and for this reason the good has rightly been declared to be that at which all things aim.

Aristotle, Nichomachean Ethics




If Aristotle is right, you can't avoid at least, seeking good outcomes, whether in thought or more manifest intent. You could say, that is how, you are as a biological organism. As a "rational animal" you can also cultivate the potential enjoyment of pleasurable outcomes, as the fruit of your labor. Finally, you can live a healthy and decent existence, and adopt a decency that other people share in, that is a life with principle (ethos, or "character") Of course all this is subjective -"the good"- but you can't avoid that this (valuation) however it is described, as a basis as the way things are, and are made manifest at once.

Even the most skeptical philosophers (Aristotle, Epicurus, Nietzsche etc.) recognize the potential of nobility and excellence, and growth as possible to cultivate and manifest, in a way preceding how they are ethically or morally characterized.

You can either recognize this ethic, as your reality, or not. That is true. It is not a rationalization of what the world is, but how you exist and project into it.

But then start with subjective pleasures, of a ripe and colorful piece of fruit. The redness and cool crisp taste of the apple may not be the same as anyone else's experience, but that experience "is" and we are able to refer to it pretty well, as I am presently. Maybe you can stop hiding from yourself and recognize sensuality and passion as the basis of life, that doesn't need justification?

So the question is still the same. Namely, if you accept how you feel, and yourself for feeling what you do (probably that's the kicker) just on your own terms, (even if it is just your way of seeking out pleasurable subjective experiences), you will recognize an actual basis of your world and reality, and the possibility for cultivation, of living and being in the world.

Of course, there are the absurd reasonings toward the denial of life, and there is some rhetorical legitimacy to these expressions. Nobody is going to tell you to go up to an edge of fallablism here. That's the only truth you are flirting with. Nobody can tell you how to live, or that it is good to. In deed, pleasures are fleeting, and there is much to be skeptical of in a pleasure driven society... But this suggests a true intellectual revolt to such values of the world, in principle, and coming to this. Maybe you would enjoy the writings of Albert Camus...? Haven't people suggested this to you? Have you read The Stranger? It is a novella written in simple prose. It might make you think.

In any case it is a simple statement of truth, an unavoidable facticity, (a biological fact I would venture) that you consciously seek a favorable end or outcome in your rational intents. What does this mean?

The idea is to be holistic about this, if possible, to generally recognize the broader possibilities of being human. There you will only find substantive truths, in being. The world is based on this, not in an affirmed description of what this is. Respect the gift of your rational mind, Thanatos. That is what people are saying.




I just seek to understand something. I wouldn't call that favorable as it just leads to some inconvenient truths.

But sensuality and passion are for fools, the base folk. Those with intellect don't stoop to such things in life but need more than just base sense life. I won't be those fools.

As for me I exist to cut and tear myself. I couldn't muster the guts for suicide so I unknowingly orchestrate a series of events that will inevitably lead to my end without any chance for me to stop it. I have known this to be the case since I was a child, I was not meant to live or have a future.

My rational mind has gotten me into more trouble than it's worth. It's why every time I read philosophy I end up getting twisted and stuck for months, I can't make sense of it. It's not a gift, it's a curse. Knowledge is a curse. Yet it's a pain I continuously inflict to myself. It's also why I don't understand anything you write.

How can you find truth based in reality if you don't know if it's real or not? There can be no in uncertainty and even less so in illusion.



Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
How does that even deal with solipsism anyway?




How does it "even"?

Here is what I am saying on a platter:

Ethical principles and aesthetic values may be considered basically subjective, but they will in actually precede the preoccupation you have with perception and consensus or confirmation.

Here is the thesis expressed relative to your preferred way of thinking. You can call things subjective to perception, Thanatos, and they will nonetheless have a manifest basis in the world, upon these grounds. For instance what is the color red to you, and to me? What is pain? pleasure? These qualities, which we will never know as objectifiable or quantifiable, have a baseline reality that is known to both of us. We speak of things according to our subjective sense perceptions (I have no clue what your experience of the color red is, for instance) and yet our relative and respective evaluations as such, are what we respectively live by.

How is that a response to solipsism? Think about it. Recognizing these affairs as such, suggests the world and reality as it is, not entirely based on a criterion of perception, and confirmation. It precedes these scientific consideration (although it is generous to call your attitude scientific at all). Your subjectivism or search for confirmation and objectivity is not the basic criterion for what is, it is just a formal custom that you, along with many over-profound idiots these days, are preoccupied with. 

So also consider, it doesn't matter how incovenient or dark your truths are to you. I have a feeling what is on your plate is a privileged, western, middle class existence. Am I far off? You probably haven't missed a meal in your life, have oppurtunities galore, and even in the state of America, have health insurance, which you mainly take for granted. You cause yourself what suffering you suffer, and complain to others about it.

It doesn't matter if you slash your wrists, or shave your head, or wear dark nail polish. This is within your own means, an attitude you assume and manifest, and something you value. You have certain values in being like that. Maybe you should examine it, (ie. examine yourself and you're attitude) if it is not working out for you? That would be a rational basis of thinking. You live in the world according to your own values.

Not being able to shoulder what you see in the world, and displaying yourself this way, as if this demonstrated anything, is not any litmus test of the world itself, or suggestion of your acuity with respect to things. Being caught in a subject to object reflection as you are, in your idea of a "critical" mindedness that ends in solipsism, is really just a kind of petty intellectual narcissism.

Your countenance for the world and the way it is, only broadly suggests that there is a bearing and temperament of human beings, as much as the test of what truths they can handle. If you can't handle the truth, that is your failing. There is maybe something to recognize in that. How much truth can we handle, Nietzsche asked? Yet you are only seeing a flattering image, if you choose to think that you are so oppressed by your intellect, at face value.

So to answer your question, the ethical and aesthetic dimension of life may be completely subjective, but may if you choose, be seen as foundation. It would maybe bring you to stand on your own two feet. You can live by principle, or your values. But sure, having values and standing by them like the rest of the world is so base and petty right? "It is an illusion" I'm sure. Well, feel free to believe that. Actually, maybe the idea is just as simple as being pleasant, at least in respect to yourself, and starting there. After being a general twat to everyone, Narcissus drowned himself, and that was not pleasant ordeal even for him, but who could save him from himself?



Quote:

It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and honorably and justly, and it is impossible to live wisely and honorably and justly without living pleasantly. Whenever any one of these is lacking, when, for instance, the man is not able to live wisely, though he lives honorably and justly, it is impossible for him to live a pleasant life.

Epicurus



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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #23017039 - 03/17/16 04:05 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

TLDR; solipsism is the aesthetic of intellectual narcissism.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #23017848 - 03/17/16 07:38 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Hey Thanatos, how's it going? When I was a child I thought I'd never make it past the age of 18. Shortly after I made it to 18, I tried to kill myself a few times. (preamble)

When I joined the shroomery at the age of 17 I had no idea what people were talking about - it all looked like gibberish to me. I was heavily into philosophy and had a very individual understanding of things - I never ran in to someone who had the same philosophy as me but I considered myself to be on the egde and I saw some others who were on the edge who seemed to have similar impulses.

I tried my best to understand what the hell people were talking about and slowly, through lots of reading posts and meanwhile going through life experiences, little things here and there started to make sense. However, it was years before I escaped solipisism. My solipisism became so extreme that my mind actually split off from reality and I became schizophrenic.

People in chatrooms were all talking about me indirectly, they teased me and described what I was going through. I was in the afterlife and I just hadn't realized I was dead yet. Everybody was a dream character, or they were manifestations of my mind. It was all a dream - and when I read posts on the shroomery I could see the REAL intention behind each post and could see how God was teasing me with these different archetypes (masks) that he presented to me.

Quote:

so I unknowingly orchestrate a series of events that will inevitably lead to my end




What you've done is planned your own destruction. You just don't know the time or place yet. Nothing wrong with destruction as it can be a very positive thing. I see heavy mental illness in your future and a major transformation event. I'm not a psychic but you just remind me a lot of myself. You will likely experience some kind of psychotic break and a few (if you're lucky) very challenging years.

Truth be told I think you'll make it through and survive. However you have a hard life ahead of you. I don't think you will reach the knowledge you crave but I do think you will find peace. The unknown lies ahead!

edit: I see you want advice on how to get out of solipisism and not just a statement like "you'll be fine!"
there's not much advice I can give you but for me some things that helped: stop drugs for a while, do something in the community that is a pain in your ass like community service or volunteering, just keep trying different things, read self help books, meditation practices, exercise, see a psychologist even if it doesn't seem to help... move forward, adventure, honesty, get outside and talk to people


--------------------

Edited by EternalCowabunga (03/17/16 07:52 PM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23017885 - 03/17/16 07:47 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Nice post EC. Gave me the feels man. Props for making it through that shit, it sounds nightmarish. I've been so close to mental illness almost my whole life but never had it myself. I cannot imagine how hard it must get.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23017952 - 03/17/16 08:03 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:


People in chatrooms were all talking about me indirectly, they teased me and described what I was going through.




oh man, ive been there,. :highfive:

part of the truman show delusion.


--------------------
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Draw DMT!

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Edited by SleepyE (03/17/16 08:03 PM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23017995 - 03/17/16 08:13 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

A family member once said to me that I'd look back on my mental illness challenges and that I'd be able to laugh at it. But when I look back on it, and the challenges I still face, it just makes me sad. Not like a self pity kind of sad but a pain in my heart. The biggest challenge is to be honest about my beliefs - I can share my beliefs here because I am anonymous but in real life, if I share my beliefs it won't be long before I'm sent back to the hospital. It doesn't matter whether it's true or not, but it's not fun to have to shut my mouth when people talk about schizophrenia and things like medication and psychosis and mystical experiences... there's still a large part of me that says that my schizophrenia was actually an insight into the True Nature of Reality. Then there is the off and on again depression that results from these beliefs.

I strongly relate to Thanatos and I think I have insight into his psychology. It's possible he will never go through a psychotic episode or develop schizophrenia. I don't think we can blame Thanatos for his lack of awareness. He genuinely believes that he is stuck and perhaps he is. And when you're stuck you can get pretty confused. One could go head first into psychedelics to try to get unstuck and just get more stuck. It's based on the attitude and intention of the user I think.

I am not a psychologist and I can only speak from my own experience. But I believe Thanatos' desire for self-destruction is something that's been deeply rooted in him for a long time and will manifest in some kind of religious or mystical experience - a kind of salvation. But this is not the spirituality forum so I'll stop myself there.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: SleepyE]
    #23018007 - 03/17/16 08:16 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SleepyE said:
Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:


People in chatrooms were all talking about me indirectly, they teased me and described what I was going through.




oh man, ive been there,. :highfive:

part of the truman show delusion.




yeah man :highfive:


--------------------

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23018194 - 03/17/16 08:55 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
It won't. I cut my hair the way I like because I like it that way. I don't care what styles people want me to do. I could go bald and wouldn't give a damn, it wouldn't change anything (in fact I did because the barber made a mistake about what I wanted), but I just shrugged it off.

I already wear stuff I like because I like it. I don't care what people think. Only idiots think a hairstyle change is a big deal as well as clothing choice.

So that's why I cal your advice stupid because it's like telling someone to do what they're already doing and hope things change.




you make it sound as if you have already experimented with several hairstyles and have settled upon one which you like most for the moment... is that the case?

you claim it's no big deal, but you are unwilling to change.. all i have asked is that you try something that you havent tried before, and report how it makes you feel..

i didnt choose hair arbitrarily, i chose it because it is at once very personal and very social. it's under your complete control but the feelings you get from it dont simply come from within.

i am suggesting this because i think if you make a harmless change to it, such as dying it a different color, it will make more obvious the external social forces around you.

you might ask yourself, why did you choose this style, why not that style, what are the rules, what are the limits, how are they perceived by others..

it is no big deal, so why not try it. no need to close yourself and be content with what makes you comfortable, if you are really serious about your solipsism then that is all the more reason to give this a go..

and to bolster my argument, the wise words of someone with one of the most iconic hairstyles of all time
Quote:

"It is not consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness."

-Marx




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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23018219 - 03/17/16 09:03 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
It doesn't matter whether it's true or not, but it's not fun to have to shut my mouth when people talk about schizophrenia and things like medication and psychosis and mystical experiences...



Man that sounds so fuckin hard. I empathise brother. It pains me to be anything but my truest self around others. I hope you find a group, or at least a person, who you can be yourself with. IRL I mean.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23018230 - 03/17/16 09:05 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
there's not much advice I can give you but for me some things that helped: stop drugs for a while, do something in the community that is a pain in your ass like community service or volunteering, just keep trying different things, read self help books, meditation practices, exercise, see a psychologist even if it doesn't seem to help... move forward, adventure, honesty, get outside and talk to people




also this.

its not easy...


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: EternalCowabunga] * 1
    #23018306 - 03/17/16 09:26 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

there's not much advice I can give you but for me some things that helped: stop drugs for a while,



yup, solipsism is a clear sign of too much mind entropy imo

mind expansion is necessary but too much too long can be counter productive in some ways.

i suppose on the outside my experience with psychosis looks negative and you get judged poorly for behaving strange, but i cant help but feel like the experience was of a spiritual nature and that my psyche has matured because of it, and that it might have all been for some greater good in myself, who knows. I definitely understand an insane amount about schizophrenia and psychosis because i have first hand experience of the overload of patternicity.

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
there's still a large part of me that says that my schizophrenia was actually an insight into the True Nature of Reality. Then there is the off and on again depression that results from these beliefs.




I have memories of things that may or may not have happened, and it causes me a lot of stress to even think about because the more i try to figure it out in my memory the more insane i can possibly get because i dont know what memories are real and which or not,

but ive decided to completely forget about the whole event and just not care about it anymore.

i find other schizo types are unable to let these experiences go and get fixated on trying to figure it out, and usually its just more noise.
These are the types that cant let things like "gang stalking delusions" go, because of an inability to let go of control.


--------------------
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Edited by SleepyE (03/17/16 09:35 PM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23018362 - 03/17/16 09:34 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
It doesn't matter whether it's true or not, but it's not fun to have to shut my mouth when people talk about schizophrenia and things like medication and psychosis and mystical experiences...



Man that sounds so fuckin hard. I empathise brother. It pains me to be anything but my truest self around others. I hope you find a group, or at least a person, who you can be yourself with. IRL I mean.




Thanks man. I don't want to seem self-pitying, I've been lucky and successful to make great improvements. I hope Thanatos is able to steer his way around this possible pitfall.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: EternalCowabunga] * 1
    #23018389 - 03/17/16 09:42 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Totally, SleepyE. I can tell we've been through the same thing from our previous interactions. I hold these two paradoxical viewpoints at the same time.. the suffering one goes through in these experiences can be great, but it is also great for the spirit and can mature the psyche

So I say that I hope he doesn't have to go through it, but also hold the hope that he attains the same product through other means.. but like I said, I predict that he will experience something similar to what you and I have gone through

No doubt you have a lot of knowledge, probably similar to mine. Your experiences with DMT may put your knowledge slightly above mine and that's on my to do list :tongue2:

edit: the suffering is usually not as great as it is percieved to be from the outside because there is this intuition during this time that this is a good, advancing thing for the psyche


--------------------

Edited by EternalCowabunga (03/17/16 09:45 PM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23018473 - 03/17/16 09:55 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

oddly enough my truman show delusion syndrome sort of jumped to the other side of the spectrum were i feel like nobody knows who i am, or people that ive met before somehow forgot who i was.

its weird, this kind of experience im having tends to want to give credit to the possibility my life might be solipsistic after all.

I kind of feel like im the only one who is aware of his environment at times ahaha.

but i honestly prefer the view that 'nobody knows who i am' to 'everybody knows who i am' because i dont like being comforted with lies :*)
so the former statement seems more in the ball park of actual reality so im going to go with it,

yes i might have to reintroduce myself to people i already know or have already met but fuck it ahahah

me and my binary decision making :lol:


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Edited by SleepyE (03/17/16 10:13 PM)

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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23018625 - 03/17/16 10:24 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
edit: the suffering is usually not as great as it is percieved to be from the outside because there is this intuition during this time that this is a good, advancing thing for the psyche



Oh yeah man, you are running on the essence or power of death at this stage, terrible things might be happening to you but you wholeheartedly accept it as some sort of divine initiation.

the REAL suffering comes afterwards when you realize you are a social pariah because you have been exposed as a "crazy person" :cookiemonster:
:awesomenod:

Seems our society further isolates the ones who have gone sick from isolation. haha:ancientaliens:

I think on some level it seemed like a divine initiation for me is because right before my official episode and i was hovering near the event horizon about to get sucked it, when i finally did i had a long schizophrenic conversation with entities that completely possessed my room and body, but not in any sort of demonic or possessive way. I thought i knew the voices so on some level i consented to the possession of my time.
It told me all sorts of things but in some ways it told me that this psychosis was going to be like a test or something and that im going to be smashed with a fucking super complex rubixs cube of a problem and i have to hack my way out of it or eat shit and die.

I felt like this was a similar test to when i had SevereOCD episode and had to hack my way out of it.

so yeah i ate sooo much shit but luckily im not dead, and i gotta say those experiences were really brutal but i would be lying if i said i didnt learn a valuable lesson.

but i don't know, im a crazy person so what i say should be regarded as poop :\ i cant be trusted :tinfoil:


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Edited by SleepyE (03/17/16 11:02 PM)

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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23018750 - 03/17/16 10:55 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Has anyone here encountered this before? Also how did you manage to get out of it. I'm finding it really hard to move past the whole reality being my dream and people not being real. It's starting to scare me and i don't know how to combat it.




When I experienced it, I also considered what I came to term 'semi-solipsism' in the sense that it wasn't only me an existence, but only me as the observer of people that once were observers.

Everyone else were residual souls (who once had the experience, subjectively in linear time, in a different time) who were already residing in the eternal to where I was being summoned subconsciously by all, each having a specific role in that masterplan.

I appreciate thats not a 'way out' by any means, but it proves you aren't alone and there's at least one other way to look at it! :wink:

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #23019323 - 03/18/16 03:15 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Some very interesting insights and experiences in this thread. Bravo.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23020984 - 03/18/16 04:38 PM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
It won't. I cut my hair the way I like because I like it that way. I don't care what styles people want me to do. I could go bald and wouldn't give a damn, it wouldn't change anything (in fact I did because the barber made a mistake about what I wanted), but I just shrugged it off.

I already wear stuff I like because I like it. I don't care what people think. Only idiots think a hairstyle change is a big deal as well as clothing choice.

So that's why I cal your advice stupid because it's like telling someone to do what they're already doing and hope things change.




you make it sound as if you have already experimented with several hairstyles and have settled upon one which you like most for the moment... is that the case?

you claim it's no big deal, but you are unwilling to change.. all i have asked is that you try something that you havent tried before, and report how it makes you feel..

i didnt choose hair arbitrarily, i chose it because it is at once very personal and very social. it's under your complete control but the feelings you get from it dont simply come from within.

i am suggesting this because i think if you make a harmless change to it, such as dying it a different color, it will make more obvious the external social forces around you.

you might ask yourself, why did you choose this style, why not that style, what are the rules, what are the limits, how are they perceived by others..

it is no big deal, so why not try it. no need to close yourself and be content with what makes you comfortable, if you are really serious about your solipsism then that is all the more reason to give this a go..

and to bolster my argument, the wise words of someone with one of the most iconic hairstyles of all time
Quote:

"It is not consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness."

-Marx







I would have to give a shit about the opinions of my appearance for your advice to work.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23020993 - 03/18/16 04:41 PM (8 years, 30 days ago)

it's ok. if you don't feel like participating in this world, then you are better left out of it. as long as you don't hurt anybody in the process, then there is no problem.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23021006 - 03/18/16 04:48 PM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
Hey Thanatos, how's it going? When I was a child I thought I'd never make it past the age of 18. Shortly after I made it to 18, I tried to kill myself a few times. (preamble)

When I joined the shroomery at the age of 17 I had no idea what people were talking about - it all looked like gibberish to me. I was heavily into philosophy and had a very individual understanding of things - I never ran in to someone who had the same philosophy as me but I considered myself to be on the egde and I saw some others who were on the edge who seemed to have similar impulses.

I tried my best to understand what the hell people were talking about and slowly, through lots of reading posts and meanwhile going through life experiences, little things here and there started to make sense. However, it was years before I escaped solipisism. My solipisism became so extreme that my mind actually split off from reality and I became schizophrenic.

People in chatrooms were all talking about me indirectly, they teased me and described what I was going through. I was in the afterlife and I just hadn't realized I was dead yet. Everybody was a dream character, or they were manifestations of my mind. It was all a dream - and when I read posts on the shroomery I could see the REAL intention behind each post and could see how God was teasing me with these different archetypes (masks) that he presented to me.

Quote:

so I unknowingly orchestrate a series of events that will inevitably lead to my end




What you've done is planned your own destruction. You just don't know the time or place yet. Nothing wrong with destruction as it can be a very positive thing. I see heavy mental illness in your future and a major transformation event. I'm not a psychic but you just remind me a lot of myself. You will likely experience some kind of psychotic break and a few (if you're lucky) very challenging years.

Truth be told I think you'll make it through and survive. However you have a hard life ahead of you. I don't think you will reach the knowledge you crave but I do think you will find peace. The unknown lies ahead!

edit: I see you want advice on how to get out of solipisism and not just a statement like "you'll be fine!"
there's not much advice I can give you but for me some things that helped: stop drugs for a while, do something in the community that is a pain in your ass like community service or volunteering, just keep trying different things, read self help books, meditation practices, exercise, see a psychologist even if it doesn't seem to help... move forward, adventure, honesty, get outside and talk to people




I've already had a few mental breakdowns and nothing came out of it. All I learned about life is that you never get over things. They stay with you and come up at certain times. All you can hope for is the days when they aren't as strong.

I've read self help books and they all sound like the same removed from reality crap I hear my therapist say. Community service, volunteering, even talking to people pisses me off. Because quite frankly I can't stand people. They are dull, boring, and you can't count on them to do anything right. I can't endure a conversation with one without wanting to kill myself. The only thing they're good for is doing things with. I play with them, or do activities with them, but I don't like them. Friends are just chains and obligations to me and I interact with people out of necessity.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23021189 - 03/18/16 05:58 PM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
They are dull, boring, and you can't count on them to do anything right.



Funny you should say that, they're pretty much the exact words I'd use to describe you.

If you think I'm dull and boring how about you read the ratings others have left about me as in combination they're as close to ab objective view of me as you'll get.

I've got some amazing, loving people in my life who I can count on absolutely. And they can absolutely count on me. If they couldn't, then why would they continue to be there whenever I need them? Seems obvious they'd stop bothering to rush to my aid if they couldn't count on me when they were in trouble.

I'm also a huge perfectionist, in case you can't tell from my writing style, and I cannot leave any job unless I know it has been done right, even if it's totally out of sight. In fact I have been often known to re-do the work of others cause I don't believe it's been done right (sloppy/rushed).

Ain't it interesting how I feel I'm all the things you feel I'm not (and I'm quite condfident about that as there is visible proof of all), yet to me and many others you appear as you think others are?

The mind boggles.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23021360 - 03/18/16 07:05 PM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
They are dull, boring, and you can't count on them to do anything right.



Funny you should say that, they're pretty much the exact words I'd use to describe you.

If you think I'm dull and boring how about you read the ratings others have left about me as in combination they're as close to ab objective view of me as you'll get.

I've got some amazing, loving people in my life who I can count on absolutely. And they can absolutely count on me. If they couldn't, then why would they continue to be there whenever I need them? Seems obvious they'd stop bothering to rush to my aid if they couldn't count on me when they were in trouble.

I'm also a huge perfectionist, in case you can't tell from my writing style, and I cannot leave any job unless I know it has been done right, even if it's totally out of sight. In fact I have been often known to re-do the work of others cause I don't believe it's been done right (sloppy/rushed).

Ain't it interesting how I feel I'm all the things you feel I'm not (and I'm quite condfident about that as there is visible proof of all), yet to me and many others you appear as you think others are?

The mind boggles.




What you see here is pretty much a sliver of what I am. I don't care what you guess based on incomplete knowledge. I don't care what others think you, because of course boring people would find each other interesting. I also don't really care what you think of you because it has no bearing on how I see you.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23021504 - 03/18/16 08:08 PM (8 years, 30 days ago)

yet no one cares.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23022173 - 03/19/16 01:25 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:I don't care what others think you, because of course boring people would find each other interesting..



lol.. that was actually a pretty sick burn ...(not saying either of u r boring tho)

Quote:

I would have to give a shit about the opinions of my appearance for your advice to work.




lol you sound so tough.. i am saying you can't help giving a shit whether u like it or not because you are for the most part a social creature.. you give so much of a shit in fact that you refuse to alter your hair even the slightest bit.. you are so invested in the 'i don't care' persona.. prove me wrong lol, prove you actually don't care what ppl think of your purple hair.. you won't, you're all talk and your solipsism is fake as hell...

:thumbdown:

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23022188 - 03/19/16 01:33 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Thanatos in a nutshell:

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23022215 - 03/19/16 01:50 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:I don't care what others think you, because of course boring people would find each other interesting..



lol.. that was actually a pretty sick burn ...(not saying either of u r boring tho)

Quote:

I would have to give a shit about the opinions of my appearance for your advice to work.




lol you sound so tough.. i am saying you can't help giving a shit whether u like it or not because you are for the most part a social creature.. you give so much of a shit in fact that you refuse to alter your hair even the slightest bit.. you are so invested in the 'i don't care' persona.. prove me wrong lol, prove you actually don't care what ppl think of your purple hair.. you won't, you're all talk and your solipsism is fake as hell...

:thumbdown:




I don't, because I have cut my hair differently before and never gave a damn what people thought about it (in fact not doing so means I don't give shit because by indulging you I would be giving a shit).i don't care what people think about me because unlike you people I'm not a social creature. People can think what they want but it's not my problem what they do.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23022278 - 03/19/16 02:34 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
of course boring people would find each other interesting



Oh man, you've really lowered the bar with that one Thantos. I so wish I could ignore you at times but some of the stuff you say is so utterly retarded I cannot help but be so stunned by it that my hands instinctively reach for my keyboard and start expressing my complete surprise that you could even say something like that.

Congratulations man, you've completely succeeded in helping me to realise just how deluded it is possible it is for a human to become. And being as it is that I feel this existence is all some kind of illusion anyway, I guess that makes you di-lusioned. Whatever that means. It's fucking rare I know that much.

I know I might sound a little sarky, but I don't mean it that way. I'm actually kinda grateful. I really had no idea what it was like to deal with someone so detached from reality. It's one thing reading SleepE & EC's posts above with their hindsight reflection, but seeing you in the thick of such delusion is pretty eye-opening.

I wish I could have a good 'ol cry with you. I'm not sure if you've the capacity right now but just in case you did. IMO we all need them at times cause this life is fuckin hard. I've had a couple of good ones recently and they really help to shift stuff a little. I reckon it couldn't fail to do you good. I just wish we could entice them out easier; it was kinda frustrating when my therapist suggested I had a good one waiting to come out when I knew that I couldn't make it happen. Luckily for me, a friend started me off by revealing some of the darker parts of her childhood, and once she got going, it really set me off. There's some real freedom at the peak of that emotional state. Good stuff.

Sending some love your way brother. I hope you can find a better place that the one you're in now. You're such an antagonistic motherfucker at times but I really see how dark it is in the place you're in right now. It's hard for me to relate to the extremity of it but it's slowly becoming more clear.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23022295 - 03/19/16 02:44 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

I would call you delusional. My views are from interacting with people from all across the board. I used to think they were diverse and interesting with many stories to tell. But after closer inspection and reflection I see they aren't different. In fact people are pretty much the same. They're so similar it's quite dull really. Every idea, adventure, thought, boils down to a general trend among humans. As such I quickly grew bored with them upon realizing that. But people are so wrapped up their lives they can't see it, all for the best I guess. You can even see it in your conversations.

I would also have to call bullshit on synchronicity and the whole attitude creating your reality. Whenever I'm happy bad things happen to me and whenever I'm miserable or depressed it seems like things open up and life gets "better".


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.

Edited by Jokeshopbeard (03/19/16 02:49 AM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23022310 - 03/19/16 02:53 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
I would call you delusional. My views are from interacting with people from all across the board. I used to think they were diverse and interesting with many stories to tell. But after closer inspection and reflection I see they aren't different. In fact people are pretty much the same. They're so similar it's quite dull really. Every idea, adventure, thought, boils down to a general trend among humans. As such I quickly grew bored with them upon realizing that. But people are so wrapped up their lives they can't see it, all for the best I guess. You can even see it in your conversations.

I would also have to call bullshit on synchronicity and the whole attitude creating your reality. Whenever I'm happy bad things happen to me and whenever I'm miserable or depressed it seems like things open up and life gets "better".




So why do you keep posting here if you disagree with everything and everyone?

You must be getting some sort of benefit from continuing to act as you are.

You deny synchronicity, yet you're clearly attracting one hell of a negative reality to yourself to bitch about constantly on here. You are the sole source of your misery, whether you're choosing to react to your own thoughts, memories, or the behaviors of others. You are choosing to do what you do on every level. Of which, I'm sure you'll have no problem denying because hey, self-responsibility doesn't matter because solipsism and arguing with strangers on the internet over it, right?


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23022313 - 03/19/16 02:56 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Attention kids, please don't feed the solipsist. His appetite for arguing logical positivism/materialism is insatiable and never ending.


--------------------



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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23022323 - 03/19/16 03:07 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

I agree man. I try not to feed into it. But that's one sick dude man. No one deserves to feel like that.

Imagine what it would be like to feel that way at baseline? I mean I know so many levels of up and down in regards to my own states, I've explored that to the n-th degree, both naturally occurring & drug induced. But being as I know my own spectrum so well I also know roughly where my baseline is.

Thantos baseline seems to be constantly at about the lowest point of horrifying drug induced paranoia as I've ever known. That's some fucking scary shit. If I felt that as often as I do my own baseline I'd wanna top myself too.

Thantos, dude, you need some fucking help man. No one here is gonna get you outa that and it seems you aint got the capacity to do so either. Could you please liaise with SleepyE & EC (or guys, maybe you could try and PM?) and try and figure a way to progress?

There's no reason for you to feel this way man. It ain't healthy. Imagine what it might be like to not feel like that all the time. Isn't that something worth working for? It'll surely take a ton of work and shit shovelling to get out of but I fuckin promise you there's more to all this than you're seeing right now.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23022405 - 03/19/16 04:11 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

I will be back a bit later with a large refutation for the entire solipsist paradigm.


--------------------



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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23022412 - 03/19/16 04:17 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Haven't we all been like Thanatos at some point in our lives? We might have been pretty young (I was like that from ages 14-16) but still. Can we not commiserate?


--------------------
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: viktor]
    #23022439 - 03/19/16 04:47 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I will be back a bit later with a large refutation for the entire solipsist paradigm.



I look forward to it!

Quote:

viktor said:
Haven't we all been like Thanatos at some point in our lives? We might have been pretty young (I was like that from ages 14-16) but still. Can we not commiserate?



No, I've never been that bad. At least, not without suffering some kind of massive drug induced paranoia/delusion, which has happened about 3-4 times ever. After tonight however, commiserate I can.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 2
    #23022469 - 03/19/16 05:15 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

3 Reasons Why Solipsism is Flawed:

"He who sees everything as nothing but the Self, and the Self in everything he sees, such a seer withdraws from nothing. For the enlightened, all that exists is nothing but the Self, so how could any suffering or delusion continue for those who know this oneness?" -Isha Upanishad, sloka 6

What is Solipsism and Why Do People Believe It?

Solipsism is at the most extreme end of subjectivism. All people see things differently, so differently that some say everyone experiences a different reality and there is no real way to verify if there an objective reality at all, aside from what is observed. Go as far as subjectivism takes you, and you arrive at solipsism.

Solipsism is the belief that your own mental states are the only states: Only your self exists, nothing else. All is a creation of your imagination, including other beings. Other beings, who may appear to be alive, are actually just projections of your own being.

This belief arises as a result of an epistemological problem. The problem is that everything we know is the result of private, internal thought. It is quite possible that all our senses are being tricked into experiences that are faked. It is therefore possible that all other conscious beings that we think we interact with are actually just imagined. We would be in a coma, for example, dreaming up an entire world, with ourselves at the center of it. Reality could be nothing but imagination.

This is clearly a very difficult belief to refute, as it is impossible to validate any experiences other than your own and therefore impossible to prove than any life, other than the self, is actually alive.

If the self created all of the universe and all of history as a feat of the imagination, it seems quite odd that we do not have an inherent understanding that this is the case. It is odd that we do not have immense superpowers. If all beings are the result of private reflection, and the universe is a game, created to entertain ourselves, it seems that the rules of physics and the limits of time and space could all be abandoned on a whim. Does anyone have these powers? Apparently not. The solipsist belief system must therefore explain why the ultimate truth of reality is so damn well hidden!

The best explanation is that the godly solipsist self creates the universe as required as part of a game in order to pass time, interest itself, and avoid boredom. But the best way to do this, as an omnipotent being, is to play an active part in the game. This requires severely limiting one's own power. So, the solipsist's subconscious created the universe, but hides this state of affairs from its own consciousness. Therefore, solipsism is arrived at through philosophy, not through instinctive belief or through the self demonstrating creative powers to itself. Only by dividing itself into an ignorant conscious self, ruled by an omnipotent subconscious self, could true boredom-averting procrastination be achieved.

Our subconscious, for want of something to do, created a Universe and created lots of people and created our conscious self also, as the only valid individual in this world. This actually makes solipsism a similar belief system to that of some Buddhists, mystics and pantheists, but merely looking at reality from a different perspective.


Problem #1 With Solipsism: Explaining Solipsism to Everyone Else

However a problem is faced in solipsism when you try to explain this belief to someone else. You see, it's nearly impossible to convince anyone that this could be true. There are only two ways to convince someone that solipsism is true:
  • You have to convince them that they are the valid being, and that you yourself are a projection of their own self. However they'll know you can't possibly believe this yourself and will therefore believe sternly that it is not true.

  • You have to convince them that they are a projection of your imagination. Which they simply will never believe, because they are conscious themselves.

It appears that it is impossible to state that you yourself are the only valid consciousness in a meaningful way, because anyone who you tell it to will automatically disbelieve you.

That is a major problem, it makes solipsism workable only as a completely private belief.

It doesn't necessarily mean it isn't true, if you do honestly believe that all the people around you are automatons of your own creation, and do not possess independent consciousness.

But it means the belief has no practical consequences, and as it would be ironic indeed to have any pro-solipsism clubs or societies, it seems it also has no social significance as a belief.

Solipsism cannot be tested as a belief; there is no way to confirm or disconfirm it, and it has no practical effect on the world.

In science, the inability to test something makes it instantly rejected as a theory. It is as if it wasn't a true belief system.

It is a highly abstract solution to a technical epistemological problem that results mostly from philosophical issues that are hard to verify in the real world.

Solipsism can be 'safely ignored' without actually being directly refuted. As a belief, it simply doesn't matter. This is the hallmark of something that simply isn't true.


Problem #2 With Solipsism: More Than 1 is a Crowd

Only one person in the world can be a solipsist and be correct in their belief.

If two solipsists ever meet, one of them is deluded.

If ten solipsists attend a meeting, then nine of them at least must be deluded into thinking that they are the only true conscious being, and only one of them could possibly be the true cause of all existence.

Now, if you meet an increasing number of believers and it seems that the vast majority of them must be wrong in their belief, it begins to become a problem for that belief system in general: It might not actually be true for anyone.


Problem #3 With Solipsism: Origins of Cause & Experience

Solipsism has another problem: where do the experiences come from? They come from the self, generated through imagination, and then the self makes the conscious self "believe" these imagined experiences. How did the self come into existence? Why did the self create existence, why does it create experiences, why did it create reality?

These unanswered questions are no different to the unanswered questions of other belief systems such as theism or atheism or theism: Where did God come from? Where did the Universe come from? Where did the solipsist self come from? These appear to me to be the same question expressed in different words, but answered internally by no belief system.

Its formal name in theological is the first cause dilemma. It seems that any causal explanation that attempts to account for reality itself creates one further question: what was the cause of that cause?

“All causal explanations must have an arbitrary beginning” -Bertrand Russell

This highlights a serious problem with solipsism. It's a belief system that largely exists to answer the epistemological problem of how we verify the world's existence.

Solipsism doesn't actually answer this, but merely, like saying 'god did it', creates another question: What created that cause of reality?

Solipsism therefore contains the same first-cause problem as other belief systems.

This wouldn't matter if only solipsism wasn't based on its ability to answer the hard problem of epistemology.

Therefore the belief system as a whole fails.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23022473 - 03/19/16 05:23 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

op just sounds immature and or trolling now.

but hes probably just young.

if it is altered states which is causing his cognitive looseness then he should really educate himself on the importance of feeding positive delusions like pronoia instead of negative delusions like paranoia.

Mystical/schizophrenic states are interesting because if you operate on the idea of love then you start speaking profound truths, but if you operate on the idea of fear then you start speaking wack paranoid bullshit.

Gotta learn how to play this game properly.

The bad reputation schizophrenia has is solely caused by fear being a variable in the equation. I believe if you remove fear from a schizophrenics mind then most of the negative symptoms would be defused. Easier said than done :wink: i know. But its their inability to give up control which feeds the problems associated with it

Seems only the ones who are highly realized meditators can make use of the schizophrenic state because of this

but i guess this way you have the ability to differentiate between the gurus and the quacks.
Love or fear, choose wisely.


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Edited by SleepyE (03/19/16 05:43 AM)

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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23022732 - 03/19/16 09:21 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
I would call you delusional. My views are from interacting with people from all across the board. I used to think they were diverse and interesting with many stories to tell. But after closer inspection and reflection I see they aren't different. In fact people are pretty much the same. They're so similar it's quite dull really. Every idea, adventure, thought, boils down to a general trend among humans. As such I quickly grew bored with them upon realizing that. But people are so wrapped up their lives they can't see it, all for the best I guess. You can even see it in your conversations.

I would also have to call bullshit on synchronicity and the whole attitude creating your reality. Whenever I'm happy bad things happen to me and whenever I'm miserable or depressed it seems like things open up and life gets "better".




So why do you keep posting here if you disagree with everything and everyone?

You must be getting some sort of benefit from continuing to act as you are.

You deny synchronicity, yet you're clearly attracting one hell of a negative reality to yourself to bitch about constantly on here. You are the sole source of your misery, whether you're choosing to react to your own thoughts, memories, or the behaviors of others. You are choosing to do what you do on every level. Of which, I'm sure you'll have no problem denying because hey, self-responsibility doesn't matter because solipsism and arguing with strangers on the internet over it, right?




Because synchronicity is bullshit. You don't attract things in relation to attitude. If I did I would be attracting misery right now instead of things going right and things going wrong when I'm happy or positive.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23022741 - 03/19/16 09:23 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Also your refutations can be easily countered. You don't have to explain it to anyone  and if you did it could just be your mind reponsind in kind. The same thing for point two. As for point three it's your imagination again. How the self got there is irrelevant


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #23022869 - 03/19/16 10:36 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

I bet you feel great that you dedicated all that time and effort to writing that post huh LS???

/sarcasm

I bet in your heart, deep down, that part of us that is 'connected' to the life force, where your love and compassion comes from, I bet even though in your mind you knew that this was the most likely outcome:

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Also your refutations can be easily countered. You don't have to explain it to anyone  and if you did it could just be your mind reponsind in kind. The same thing for point two. As for point three it's your imagination again. How the self got there is irrelevant




I still bet there was a tiny part of you that thought your words might help. I love that part of you. I really admire your effort. Even if the person you really wanted to do something good for is showing you fuck all appreciation for your energy, please know that I really do appreciate it.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 2
    #23022938 - 03/19/16 11:14 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Thanatos doesn't exist.

He's a figment of all of our collective imaginations.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23023033 - 03/19/16 11:52 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I bet you feel great that you dedicated all that time and effort to writing that post huh LS???

/sarcasm

I bet in your heart, deep down, that part of us that is 'connected' to the life force, where your love and compassion comes from, I bet even though in your mind you knew that this was the most likely outcome:

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Also your refutations can be easily countered. You don't have to explain it to anyone  and if you did it could just be your mind reponsind in kind. The same thing for point two. As for point three it's your imagination again. How the self got there is irrelevant




I still bet there was a tiny part of you that thought your words might help. I love that part of you. I really admire your effort. Even if the person you really wanted to do something good for is showing you fuck all appreciation for your energy, please know that I really do appreciate it.




I have read those weak counter points to it and saw them easily refuted.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23023276 - 03/19/16 01:29 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I agree man. I try not to feed into it. But that's one sick dude man. No one deserves to feel like that.

Imagine what it would be like to feel that way at baseline? I mean I know so many levels of up and down in regards to my own states, I've explored that to the n-th degree, both naturally occurring & drug induced. But being as I know my own spectrum so well I also know roughly where my baseline is.

Thantos baseline seems to be constantly at about the lowest point of horrifying drug induced paranoia as I've ever known. That's some fucking scary shit. If I felt that as often as I do my own baseline I'd wanna top myself too.

Thantos, dude, you need some fucking help man. No one here is gonna get you outa that and it seems you aint got the capacity to do so either. Could you please liaise with SleepyE & EC (or guys, maybe you could try and PM?) and try and figure a way to progress?

There's no reason for you to feel this way man. It ain't healthy. Imagine what it might be like to not feel like that all the time. Isn't that something worth working for? It'll surely take a ton of work and shit shovelling to get out of but I fuckin promise you there's more to all this than you're seeing right now.




I can't imagine, because that's not what life is. Pain, suffering, that is life. It never ends, all you can hope for is a small reprieve every now and then. I used to be like you people, but life taught me differently and experience as well. Love is an illusion and joy fleeting. Pain and agony are here to stay. There is no hell, only darkness


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23023302 - 03/19/16 01:37 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

i dunno man, i rather enjoy the pain the suffering.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23023315 - 03/19/16 01:44 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

I still think solipsism is just an expression of intellectual narcissism.

It is about maintaining a certain mode of reflection (subjectivism in respect to objects), and maintaining a particularly fixed view in that, to the point of removal from others, and waning echoes.

It sucks us all in a little bit, so they say! In a certain way it can't be helped. Anyway why don't you lighten up thanatos... You aren't drowning.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #23023591 - 03/19/16 03:18 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

I pretty much am and it wouldn't be the first time. The one time I got close to ending the drowning put me in a mental hospital.

I don't see it as narcissism. More like a lack of certainty that you can be see how real the outside world is. With how fallible people and their senses are you can't be sure that what you see or experience is real. If anything it's the opposite of narcissism because it robs you of your power.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23023636 - 03/19/16 03:30 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

what power do you have?

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23023756 - 03/19/16 04:12 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

None.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23023847 - 03/19/16 04:43 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

Why would anyone think Narcissism is empowering? Hmmm. :tongue:

Maybe the first thing to say about narcissism is it is not recognizing entirely what is going on in a situation.

You could say it seems empowering, I'd say. For instance you can attract a lot of face value attention as a narcissist, in a social situation, but this is probably not really self empowering. In fact, you may be completely alone, among "echoes" at best, or attracting those pesky biting swamp flies, as the story goes.

Narcissus is a psychological archetype, basically based on a story about a guy who rejected others, generally because he thought so much of himself. In what regard did he think of himself? Likely he was not fully conscious of his "self love".

In any case though, in a certain way, Narcissus "loved" himself so much, that one day he was in a forest, he came to a pond, and coming up next to a pond he saw himself, and became transfixed by his own reflection. He was so fixated by himself, he could not look away. So no, it probably it was not any great love or wisdom of the world that brought him to this, and something closer to the derivative, or an affectation... something about reflection itself.

Or anyway that is what the story suggests. Such a fixation, was ultimately self betraying, and slowly pulled Narcissus into it. As it did, only an "echo" could be heard, as the story goes. It is the sound of a field of resonance, which was outside the perceptual fixation, yet not enough, itself, in Narcissus's case. The echo could not pull him away from his reflection, as he dropped or was rather dragged into it, and drowned.

Out of the water then grew a Narcissus...




The story:

http://www.echo.me.uk/legend.htm

Anyway, enjoy your daily dose of "empowerment". We all do, after all...

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23023995 - 03/19/16 05:32 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
I don't, because I have cut my hair differently before




oooh yeah like what?

Quote:

and never gave a damn what people thought about it (in fact not doing so means I don't give shit because by indulging you I would be giving a shit).



wat. no..

i couldn't care man.. i have simply argued that getting a haircut would show you you are wrong about the nature of reality.. buut you keep throwing up weak excuses and justifications to avoid even doing that, literally the easiest thing, so whatever have fun with your 'solipsism'


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23024058 - 03/19/16 05:56 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

he's like looking at his hair in the mirror right now, trying to determine if he's right. :lol:

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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23024100 - 03/19/16 06:08 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
I don't, because I have cut my hair differently before




oooh yeah like what?

Quote:

and never gave a damn what people thought about it (in fact not doing so means I don't give shit because by indulging you I would be giving a shit).



wat. no..

i couldn't care man.. i have simply argued that getting a haircut would show you you are wrong about the nature of reality.. buut you keep throwing up weak excuses and justifications to avoid even doing that, literally the easiest thing, so whatever have fun with your 'solipsism'




Because you don't seem to get solipsism. No matter what their reaction is it doesn't prove them to be real and not a figment of my imagination. I can say that after going bald once from a botched haircut, and no one noticed it.

Getting a haircut wouldn't change shit


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Edited by Thanatos10 (03/19/16 06:08 PM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10] * 2
    #23024447 - 03/19/16 07:47 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

i perfectly get solipsism you don't seem to get my argument, im not trying to prove to you ppl are not figments of your imagination, i am trying to show you that you are a being embedded in a society, constantly formed and informed thru interaction with it.. that even changing something as trivial and under your control as your hair will effect how you feel (which im sure has nothing to do with other people)..

you have nothing to lose, if you are a solipsist it won't affect you at all, and if you're not, well maybe you need to rethink some shit.. but hey, my guess is you go on doing what you're doing and don't take this up for whatever lame reason you can find to justify it to yourself.. so you can remain comfortable without testing your own claims. :shrug2:

...and accidentally having too much hair off once hardly counts lol
Quote:

Getting a haircut wouldn't change shit




ya and constantly asserting this doesn't prove shit


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Edited by quinn (03/19/16 07:55 PM)

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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23024565 - 03/19/16 08:30 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
i perfectly get solipsism you don't seem to get my argument, im not trying to prove to you ppl are not figments of your imagination, i am trying to show you that you are a being embedded in a society, constantly formed and informed thru interaction with it.. that even changing something as trivial and under your control as your hair will effect how you feel (which im sure has nothing to do with other people)..

you have nothing to lose, if you are a solipsist it won't affect you at all, and if you're not, well maybe you need to rethink some shit.. but hey, my guess is you go on doing what you're doing and don't take this up for whatever lame reason you can find to justify it to yourself.. so you can remain comfortable without testing your own claims. :shrug2:

...and accidentally having too much hair off once hardly counts lol
Quote:

Getting a haircut wouldn't change shit




ya and constantly asserting this doesn't prove shit




Once again your advice fails miserably. Changing my hair doesn't change how I feel, it never did and it never will. Neither does changing what o wear or anything else. Hair is hair, it doesn't matter to me.

Your advice is so trivial and foolish that it can't change anything. I've gone through many changes in the past and it didn't change my feelings whatsoever.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23024573 - 03/19/16 08:32 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

How can anything be foolish or trivial if nothing matters? These are words that express value judgments.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: falcon]
    #23024619 - 03/19/16 08:45 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

This is about not knowing if things are real or illusion in external reality, not values.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23025057 - 03/19/16 11:48 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

*sighs*

if hair is hair then why not dye your's blue and prove me wrong?
answer: you won't. you are too contented with your make believe solipsism

Quote:

I've gone through many changes in the past and it didn't change my feelings whatsoever.



oh yeah? what kind of changes other than the time you accidentally had a bit too much hair cut off?


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23025202 - 03/20/16 01:31 AM (8 years, 29 days ago)

I think the point you are missing is that why would I have to prove anything to a figment of my imagination (that's the key point of solipsism). If you aren't real and just a creation of my mind then I don't have to do anything or prove anything to you.

As for changes, let's say cancer striking members of my family, almost being homeless, having to bail out a few family members and keep many secrets from a lot of people. It's all whatever. Even being institutionalize didn't affect me at all.


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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23025257 - 03/20/16 02:12 AM (8 years, 29 days ago)

it's not about proving it to a figment of your imagination but proving it to yourself. if your solipsism is real this should be the easiest thing in the world (and it is) and won't affect you at all.. you can forget about it the next day.. we both know tho, this isn't the case and also that you won't do it :ohwell:

im sorry you have faced such things, i don't know what you would or ought to feel about them, but those were not the kind of changes i was asking about,.. those are changes that have happened to you from outside and had to face, i am asking about changes you chose to make for yourself and followed (such as a haircut)..

what kind of changes like that have you made?


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: quinn]
    #23026092 - 03/20/16 11:42 AM (8 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
it's not about proving it to a figment of your imagination but proving it to yourself. if your solipsism is real this should be the easiest thing in the world (and it is) and won't affect you at all.. you can forget about it the next day.. we both know tho, this isn't the case and also that you won't do it :ohwell:

im sorry you have faced such things, i don't know what you would or ought to feel about them, but those were not the kind of changes i was asking about,.. those are changes that have happened to you from outside and had to face, i am asking about changes you chose to make for yourself and followed (such as a haircut)..

what kind of changes like that have you made?




It doesn't prove anything to me. I've had haircuts done before, but they didn't change me. I have changed my interests, but that didn't do anything. Even my routine didn't change anything.

A haircut doesn't change anything or prove anything. It's not about it being real or not, and it doesn't prove it to be real or not.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23026617 - 03/20/16 02:53 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

What do you suppose are the essential implications of using this skeptical terminology you appeal to?

You suggest it is a kind of "formality", (something in your head) that you are talking to us here at the shroomery right? But the "formal" itself  unfolds and opens up, (even in its emptiness) to you apparently, even if you are considering empty forms.

When you ask for "proof", what do you ask for? It is not just your suggestion that a world stands somewhat provisionally to you in the form of unconfirmed phenomenal "appearances" in general, but as well, the essential possibility that things are somehow confirmed... How would that be?

The possibility could be entirely formal and yet if that were so, it would be all the more essentially implied. For instance, you already know the background in which things would be found, and confirmed if you are formally talking about proof. For instance, your consideration is like Kant's as he said, "we can't know things in themselves." In his case, what he was all the most formally sure of, was their existence, in an implied concept, if we only know of things in their (formal) phenomenal appearance.

At a certain point you might consider your attitude, the way you seek proof and confirmation, and what sort of affair this generally implies,  more broadly and reckon with that (let alone you are talking to other people) Your "formal" stance resembles such broad philosophical thinking. We suspend our belief in some things, to consider covert assumptions we have.

But being in the mind is a formality, or a philosophical construct itself. It is like living in the world, behind the closed doors of your house, or bedroom (or the Platonic cave, to use the old analogy.) You are not really removed, from nature, by this formality of arrangements. A potential confusion about this, is it is that the place of the mind not so much as a particular observable reality or mechanism (again is the place of the mind empirically observed?), but mainly a construct based on the way our notions of the world are formally conceived. For instance, consciousness is basically spoken as a formal arrangement wherein we are aware of the forms of phenomena, the spatio-temporal presentations to perception. One way or another, this is just implying the world. The way the door swings open, suggesting an inside or outside, is one thing to formally examine, but clearly you breathe the same airs, and partake in the same relations that we all are part of on either side of it. Mind really is just the swinging door of its largely formal construct, you can't get trapped by it if you are sincere. You can close it and open it yourself.

You don't have to go about reconciling things philosophically, but I would say, it's clear at least you are assuming a formal attitude, based on the way you speak. You could think about this as a complete reduction. If you are consistent with your reduction of things to mental appearances, what you have accessible to you in life has no distinction between internal or external, or reality and appearance, because it is all your consciousness. Or rather, if there are no possible distinctions then you have what you have at face value. As I have been saying, if you assume there are formally possible distinctions, (like proof, for instance) then it is a matter of broadly reconciling with that in a consistent, balanced way. Philosophers say, these "forms" (the suspended possibility of things being found in themselves) bear some analogy to what your sensory experience is, and you can think about this.

But you can lose the formality in any case. Look in the mirror. What are "you"? Look at other people. What are "they"? It is good to occasionally suspend judgements, or making certain connections, but be consistent and fair all around. You have to make a pragmatic conclusion.

Here is a phenomenological experiment. Look down at your hands and appreciate how they are so able, and how they are part of who you are. Our world is based on an analogy to them too; not just the senses, but the way the world is accessible to us. This is something. Maybe you have some drawers in the bathroom. Try opening them up, and feel the expertise of how they were crafted into a convenient construct, and how you understand this. This is the world. Pull the drawer out and look into it. Isn't that neat?

Now here's the fun part, maybe you can find a pair of scissors...

Indeed it has been a long time coming. Look back in the mirror, and you know what to do. You are the formality yourself friend. Or at least those shaggy bangs are...

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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Kurt]
    #23026949 - 03/20/16 04:25 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

I didn't understand a word of what you wrote.


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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23027011 - 03/20/16 04:39 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

you've had slight variations on the same haircut done before, dye it a different colour and then tell us other ppl don't exist.. you won't because you know they do and you know they affect you :shrug:


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23027263 - 03/20/16 05:49 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Well what can anyone say?

I think you could consider the possibility that your intelligibility of things (your encapsulated logic, mentality, and psychology) is not so important. It is actually just a formality here.

The priority in this forum is the representation of truth, and that is not necessarily in you understanding and transcending your problems. We are characterizing and describing the problem of solipsism. I believe it is a pseudo-problem, and you are really for the most part caught up in ill-examined arguments gleaned from a modern philosophy. Perception and confirmation are not fundamental issues, but formalities we base ourselves in when we collectively "construct" the reality of the world today.

The fact that you are speaking to us, is not a formality. I think you should be able to recognize a baseline to work with, which has been broadly described. If you want to discuss your formal intelligibility of things, there are certain implications you actually would have a burden to examine.

For instance, if you are maintaining a certain position that everything is part of your consciousness, there is patent absurdity that you are debating reality with a figment of your imagination. It is true that things could be perfectly absurd. What should dispel your illusion here is not that you should consider me real at face value, but that formally, you have a conception of appearance, which you say is unsatisfying for some reason. Why? Why do you see things, like shadows on the wall, if other than in comparison to something? You would not call it appearance if you did not recognize this. The idea is to understand this not just as a philosophical skepticism, but in pragmatism. 

Indeed you ask for "proof". How can you conceive of a notion of reality, without understanding what it suggests, in confirmation of existence of things. Typically confirmation comes from various perspectives, enunciating the same thing. So for example, if you stand in respect to an object from one perspective and I stand in respect to it in another, and we confirm we are seeing something with roughly the same aspects and dimensions, that is what is real. You can do this by yourself, or with other people. Now consider that we stand in this same world, and can be considered the same way as such an object. We are part of the world. So for instance, whatever induction you make connecting your experience, looking down at your hands, or looking in the mirror, to a human body and identifying it as yours, you can make with other people, if you are intellectually sincere.

But come back to the rational conclusion. Your formal position implies something (rationally) to consider. Just having that idea of something being real, as compared to an appearance, or vice versa, is based on a relation you gather, namely the existence of such things, which cast shadows on the wall? It may be that all things are empty of inherent existence, and yet even in a regress to shadows, that is what these things are. If the whole world is shadows on the walls of a cave, your mind, then why is there such a distinction? If there is actually not such a distinction, then things are what they are.

Your occupation with appearance, seems to me to be insincerity. That is what Quinn is telling you as well I gather. Anyway, keep in mind, we are just describing things here - whether these symbols are formally shadows on the wall, or the "true form" of things, does not matter. What matters is that here we vest in truth.

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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: quinn]
    #23027275 - 03/20/16 05:50 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

No they don't effect me. It didn't happen when I changed my wardrobe and it didn't happen when my hair started turning white. Because I don't care about them or their opinions.

By doing what "you" say I would be letting "you" affect me. So by not doing so I prove that I don't care about others.

As I have said before, your "advice" is idiotic.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23027298 - 03/20/16 05:57 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

How old are you Thanatos?

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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Kurt]
    #23027300 - 03/20/16 05:57 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

my guess is young, possibly :underage:


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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: SleepyE]
    #23027321 - 03/20/16 06:02 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

What age would you guess, Sleepy?

I'm going to guess.. 18. Maybe 19


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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23027336 - 03/20/16 06:05 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

He has said before that he is 24.


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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23027339 - 03/20/16 06:07 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

I was so hoping that Thantos would take a little something from you guys. You both sound like you know the place he's in pretty well and have come out the other side. He's so clearly in need of help but refuses to accept it from anyone as far as I can see.

I hope, from the bottom of my heart, that you can find a way to move through this too Thantos.


--------------------
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--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23027365 - 03/20/16 06:12 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

You vest in what is relative, for truth is relative.

It doesn't matter whether it is or isn't shadows, there's no way to be sure it isn't illusion. There is just no way to assault that position, because they can always say that it's just part of the dream. Even getting a haircut doesn't change anything because people's reaction would be part of the dream. There is no way to attack it.


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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23027370 - 03/20/16 06:12 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I was so hoping that Thantos would take a little something from you guys. You both sound like you know the place he's in pretty well and have come out the other side. He's so clearly in need of help but refuses to accept it from anyone as far as I can see.

I hope, from the bottom of my heart, that you can find a way to move through this too Thantos.



They haven't because they don't know that place that I am in and probably never have been in it.

And you hope nothing. I'm just some stranger on the Internet.


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Edited by Thanatos10 (03/20/16 06:13 PM)

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23027415 - 03/20/16 06:26 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

no, you aren't. you're an illusion. wtf are you talking about?

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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23027518 - 03/20/16 06:49 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
You vest in what is relative, for truth is relative.

It doesn't matter whether it is or isn't shadows, there's no way to be sure it isn't illusion. There is just no way to assault that position, because they can always say that it's just part of the dream. Even getting a haircut doesn't change anything because people's reaction would be part of the dream. There is no way to attack it.




Sure. There is not necessarily anything problematic with things being relative. It is just a prerogative to consider. So you say truth is relative - okay to what?).

Relative truth is the possibility of correspondence, or relation, namely between nature of things and different perspectives. Or it describes the relativity in a general way, between those perspectives. Generally you can pierce the veil of perception pretty easily. You can also question the whole incentive to say something constructive or socially agreed upon.

You do not need to value truth. Why does illusion, or mere appearance bother you? Why suppose there needs to be something behind things? The Buddhists have a saying, form is emptiness...but also emptiness is form. In other words all things are intangible emanations, like a reflection of the moon in the pond.

When you get past the distinctions, as you claim to, things are apparently not real.  But how can they be illusions "relatively" to something substantive or inherent? Why look for this particular possibility of "truth" when everything is more primative arising impressions?

Maybe you have the oppurtunity to shift philosophical paradigms, rather than seek something you find to be impossible to achieve. Solipsism may represent something genuine... who knows? Maybe it is not savory as desparity, or suffering, but maybe this is all between you and nature, rather than an issue of what we ordinarily perceive as truth in a relative correspondence...

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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23027626 - 03/20/16 07:14 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Some quotes of mine from years back:

Quote:

what would i have without meaning? i would have life without meaning. but i wouldnt really be losing much because the meaning was nothing but a concept in my head anyways.




Quote:

Physical pain can be a real pain in the neck (and i did have severe neck pain until recently). Sometimes suffering does not make you stronger, it just makes living your life more challenging.

When my scoliosis was mostly healed all I could think was how much better life was without it and how I prayed my back would continue to get better. I did not learn anything from the back pain besides learning how not to exasperate the problem.




Quote:

it appears to me that it is a bad idea to kill yourself, that's the fucked up thing - i used to take comfort in the idea that i could kill myself at any time, now im pretty sure im fucked if i do that, so im just gonna keep struggling and being retarded and making all your lives a little more of a burden




Quote:

i feel stuck in the same place mentally and emotionally. is there any easy answer to get out of this? trying new things? i feel like whenever trying new things i am not really doing anything new, just repeating the same exact same thing.




Here is one of my posts when I was around the time of hitting rock bottom:

Quote:

life sucks because you arent dominating other people. you have to start going up to people and humping them or spitting on them and then be like IM THE FUCKING BUDDHA COSMIC JOKE WOOOO

and then they will be all like "what's wrong with you?" but they won't even be passionate, it will just be this faggoty robot reaction like it was taught to them and so they must react this way

so then you take your dick out and say

OH MY GOD ITS MY DICK
THE WORLD IS ENDING YOU SAW MY DICK

BOOOOOOOOM

wait, we're still here
we're always going to be here
so why are you all so fond of repressing yourselves
cause im doing it too it's all of us, we're all the same mind, how bout we wake the fuck up nah let's be a bunch of miserable fucks it's a prison sobriety the freedom comes when you breathe and then you get stressed and the freedom is drugs and then the freedom is conformity and freedom is slavery and then freedom is fear




Quote:

I think about things like destiny and love and god. I am no longer sure if things are the way they are in society because that is the way it is suppose to be, or if we are just vehicles perpetuating these programs, and why we can't seem to step out of the programming. One part of me says that it is love that has allowed us to get this far and another part of me says that love is just another illusion and that what we think of love is a cultural construct, similar to time.




Quote:

Hey dude, you dont even fucking know me




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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23027672 - 03/20/16 07:29 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

I'm confident that I've been exactly where you are and also am confident that you are not alone. You feel stuck right now and I've been there 100%. I just wanted so badly to not be stuck and all the advice people gave me was bullshit and didn't help.

I was like "okay, thanks for the chat, now what should I do?"
And the doctor would say something like "Oh, you just need to get out of your head"
And I would hate him. He didn't know shit, he didn't know what I was going through.

And I remember treating people like they were actually Me. I would try and get people to admit that they were illusions. "I know YOU!" with a smirk on my face.


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OfflineSleepyE
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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23027698 - 03/20/16 07:36 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:

And I remember treating people like they were actually Me. I would try and get people to admit that they were illusions.



aha i somewhat remember my head was in a similar area in the beginnings of my psychosis


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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Kurt]
    #23028230 - 03/20/16 10:28 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Kurt said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
You vest in what is relative, for truth is relative.

It doesn't matter whether it is or isn't shadows, there's no way to be sure it isn't illusion. There is just no way to assault that position, because they can always say that it's just part of the dream. Even getting a haircut doesn't change anything because people's reaction would be part of the dream. There is no way to attack it.




Sure. There is not necessarily anything problematic with things being relative. It is just a prerogative to consider. So you say truth is relative - okay to what?).

Relative truth is the possibility of correspondence, or relation, namely between nature of things and different perspectives. Or it describes the relativity in a general way, between those perspectives. Generally you can pierce the veil of perception pretty easily. You can also question the whole incentive to say something constructive or socially agreed upon.

You do not need to value truth. Why does illusion, or mere appearance bother you? Why suppose there needs to be something behind things? The Buddhists have a saying, form is emptiness...but also emptiness is form. In other words all things are intangible emanations, like a reflection of the moon in the pond.

When you get past the distinctions, as you claim to, things are apparently not real.  But how can they be illusions "relatively" to something substantive or inherent? Why look for this particular possibility of "truth" when everything is more primative arising impressions?

Maybe you have the oppurtunity to shift philosophical paradigms, rather than seek something you find to be impossible to achieve. Solipsism may represent something genuine... who knows? Maybe it is not savory as desparity, or suffering, but maybe this is all between you and nature, rather than an issue of what we ordinarily perceive as truth in a relative correspondence...




Ultimately the question as I have learned is meaningless. It has two answers that can't be proven and doesn't really offer much insight. In short, pondering it is a waste of time.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23028266 - 03/20/16 10:40 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

But what is the question?

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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23028269 - 03/20/16 10:41 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14542750/fpart/3/vc/1#14542750

This does offer an interesting take on it, even though I don't understand much of it


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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Kurt]
    #23028272 - 03/20/16 10:41 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Kurt said:
But what is the question?




Whether it's all real or all illusion. I can't prove either answer.


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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23028313 - 03/20/16 10:50 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

The question is "whether "it" is all real or an illusion?"

What are you referring to? Is it something or nothing?

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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Kurt]
    #23028369 - 03/20/16 11:02 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

I what I see, touch, hear, taste, all of it. I experience it but wonder if it's real. How do I know that my dreams at night are different from reality? What about people and empathy? Friends? If this isn't real then what are the implications? Can you love an illusion? Friends with falsehoods? But then again what is "real" what is reality? Do I have illusion to compare it to? How would I know the difference, or can I know?


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23028421 - 03/20/16 11:23 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

yes, you do. Dreams are a perfect why to define what is real and what is unreal. when something is an illusion it does not hold up to scrutiny and experimentation, as like in dreams; whilst reality CAN BE held up to scrutiny and experimentation.

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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23028540 - 03/21/16 12:26 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Are you sure about that? How do you define what is "real"? What we define as real quickly falls apart after much observation. That's how you get to solipsism.


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Re: Solipsism ai [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23028922 - 03/21/16 06:15 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
No they don't effect me. It didn't happen when I changed my wardrobe and it didn't happen when my hair started turning white. Because I don't care about them or their opinions.

By doing what "you" say I would be letting "you" affect me. So by not doing so I prove that I don't care about others.

As I have said before, your "advice" is idiotic.



whatever man i couldnt care less and you certainly prove you dont care by accidentally having too much hair cut off or accidentally going grey.. well done, you are a true solipsist who isnt affected by other people and free to do anything you like in human society.... :rolleyes:


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23029132 - 03/21/16 08:14 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Has anyone here encountered this before? Also how did you manage to get out of it. I'm finding it really hard to move past the whole reality being my dream and people not being real. It's starting to scare me and i don't know how to combat it.




As you've demonstrated here, one can dismiss any argument against solipsism, even if they cannot refute it on its own terms.

Maybe try accepting that this is all mind, but not your mind, as most of it is hidden from view. Take a good look at what is meant by 'your' mind. Perhaps it isn't all about you. Start poking at the boundaries of your self, ask disintegrating questions about the origins of this self and its solidity. I've spent some time in tunnels, and there is potential for light at the end. Change happens over time though, so be patient with mind.

If this is all an illusion, it is a persistent one. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, then
:blewmeanie:
:duckhunt:

Edited by DisoRDeR (03/21/16 08:40 AM)

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10] * 2
    #23029147 - 03/21/16 08:24 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

and even if this is an illusion, doesn't mean it isn't a shared illusion with multiple participating streams of consciousness (beings) :smile: maybe there's even a purpose and meaning to it! :laugh:


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #23029416 - 03/21/16 10:13 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:


As you've demonstrated here, one can dismiss any argument against solipsism, even if they cannot refute it on its own terms.




Solipsism does not seem like an argument in the first place. Define an argument (which admittedly does not have to be fundamental) as generally how things stand up in themselves on their own terms, and upon their own burden.

Maybe something can be gathered from that by the solipsist.

If a solipsist was conducting an argument, it would not be about gathering from other peoples' terms, and thinking in terms of them. (Or would it be?)

The idea of slipping out of certain terms, may be well for one's tao, or it may be how "consciousness" is defined, but it strikes me the issue for the solipsist (who may navigate the way), is not in argumentative consistency, but something like equanimity.

The solipsist should seek a healthy non-clinging attitude, and what can be gathered from talking, is how to stand on one's own two feet. Avoiding "intellectual narcissism", which is in the first a facade, may moreover be recognizing that it doesn't help.

At pain of argument, I'd propose the issue is whether solipsism is consistent in itself, not in other people's terms.

Edited by Kurt (03/21/16 10:46 AM)

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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #23029511 - 03/21/16 10:47 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

Doesn't really answer questions about other people, or empathy, or even caring about the world. Doesn't answer whether it's illusion or not


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23029686 - 03/21/16 11:57 AM (8 years, 28 days ago)

No -it- doesn't... When if you can, you recognize where the burden of argument is - what you are referring to is solipsism, and something that probably does not either answer, or sincerely raise questions it proposes.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #23030006 - 03/21/16 01:46 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

But there is no burden on it to argue anything.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23030042 - 03/21/16 02:00 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

so you are essentially saying nothing, sure you don't know if the world is real, no one is certain of that, yet there are still laws of physics and society which govern our waking life and can be interrogated in depth.. so what are you actually claiming? nothing


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23030264 - 03/21/16 03:08 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
so you are essentially saying nothing, sure you don't know if the world is real, no one is certain of that, yet there are still laws of physics and society which govern our waking life and can be interrogated in depth.. so what are you actually claiming? nothing



Irrelevant to my previous comment.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23030285 - 03/21/16 03:14 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

it was directed at your position in this thread
:failboat:


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23030564 - 03/21/16 04:49 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
it was directed at your position in this thread
:failboat:



Might want to direct that at your "advice".

Also I'm not claiming anything if you recall, my position is not knowing if what I see is real or not.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23030688 - 03/21/16 05:21 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

But as a Solipsist...shouldnt you strive to maintain self perfection...and then even make sure that other people(who are an extension of yourself) have a good life so that then you can say you are complete and then some?

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23030750 - 03/21/16 05:38 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

oh so you actually aren't saying anything lol

well being uncertain about things is hardly solipsism, that's more just a sane approach to life

solipsism is more like believing you are the only thing in existence and everything else is in your mind.. that is pretty silly and as i have argued society is primary to the self which you could test by getting a haircut


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn] * 3
    #23030821 - 03/21/16 05:56 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

he's not a solipsist. he's just some guy who's a philosophical zombie.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: akira_akuma] * 2
    #23031027 - 03/21/16 06:47 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

hah it's hard to argue with a zombie, at least it only took 11 pages of thread to figure em out :lol:


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23031042 - 03/21/16 06:52 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
But there is no burden on it to argue anything.




Although I am skeptical that we are all on the same page (well duh), I would agree with you there.

Maybe there is no burden of argument for the solipsist, then let there be no further psychological clinging to things being "real" or "confirmed" in the way the solipsist has in disparity, expressed. That is what I think a real closure would be to argument. I enjoyed this thread.

I wonder if anyone reading this knew that solipsism is a recent philosophical invention? I did not. It was coined in the 19th century apparently. To me this confirms my own stance. I think you can guess that its terms are mainly found in point of contact with a modern western philosophical tradition's concept of consciousness, and are apparently derived from them.

I think we begin with the relatively grounded point which we all know, which is that nobody in a positive sense, believes in solipsism. It may be a formality, a flaring, rhetorical expression of doubt, or maybe a "thought experiment". In any case its expression, as I understand,  effectively problemetizes a "given" concept of consciousness, and how we would be trapped in it. I think that is what is going on.

Yet is consciousness necessarily a "given"?

I think it is interesting that a solipsist does not only problematize a concept of consciousness, but comes to formulate what is itself in the traditional encapsulation of this concept, given in western philosophy. Thanatos, you have already expressed that "we could be dreaming", and that therefore everything from our senses, to mathematical and scientific knowledge, and whatever other seemingly necessary general inductions about being in the world we make, in general can be considered in doubt, or rather put in this crisis.

This is exactly Descartes' argument, actually, and it is his preconceived concept, that I think a solipsist is leaning to represent. Only the solipsist is consistent in that there is a problem with this.

In modern idealism, the existence of consciousness is not an ordinary claim, or any kind of empirical observation, but expressed formally or philosophically as what escapes the terms of such concrete investigation, or quantification. It is often insinuated that because it is tied up in any conception of things, as a subject's relation to an object, that we must consider it. A "conscious subject" (which is differently conceived than a "subject" of biology, or a subject of physics, and so on...) is said to be formally necessary or constitutive of what we call a "sense experience" or an "observation". A subject relates to an object, in a broad and rather complex formulation of epistemology, where we have two kinds of "subjects" to consider (both conscious subjects, and subjects of enquiry, as in hypokeimenon.

In short, in modern epistemology, where we talk about conscious subjects meeting objects in general, we do not only address the potential of science (the subject of knowledge) but what is constitutive in such a relation, in any understanding of knowledge. Note: I can clarify what I mean by this broader epistemelogical construct, but I don't want to diverge from the point, so feel free to ask questions later.).

I do not think there is anything wrong with this in short, as a way to broadly organize our pursuit and gathering of knowledge. The idea the modern philosopher suggests, that a conscious subject or mind "escapes" the terms it is often tied up with, as an observer, is also not unreasonable even. So far as we work in preconceived terms, of subjects and objects, it is reasonable to assume conscious subjects do indeed "exist". But why should we?

If the solipsist were to realize that by rationalization (not any actual affair, or observation in the world, but in an invested conception) Descartes himself gets effectively "trapped" at the point of his doubt, in his proposed slant of argument "I think therefore I am" this should raise questions of the merits of his more general approach. Why should we vest in the absolute "intellectual" certainty, which that proposition suggests?

Descartes is indeed effectively a solipsist. After doubting the senses, and all reasonable inductive bases of knowledge to arrive at a better basis or "subject" of knowledge, (ie. overthrowing Aristotle's hypokeimenon, as subject) he doesn't get the world back by any reasonable manner, but rather, after coming to a point of doubt, he has to invoke god, to suggest the existence of things. That is how the argument actually goes.

Is that reasonable, especially if after this fanfare of this being a purportedly skeptical or rational approach? We may say no, that this would not be reasonable, and yet we largely come to this place. We assume his "method" of doubt, and the reasoning that leads to formulation of this concept of "consciousness", and suppose it leads to some form of certainty, in the cogito, the "I think" or this generally enduring intellectualism. We suppose this approach really does reach a relevant point of certainty that is not only relavent to the world, but bearing the possible scope of our assumptions about the world. It is a conscious subject. Hence we think about a mind and body, and in more rarified technical conceptions, a concept of conscious subject and object.

I am not proposing recognizing this questionable connotation about western philosophical tradition just for one person's benefit, (because by definition I think the solipsistic mind seems to go blank at certain points) but I think generally by recognizing a problem, in solipsism, and grappling with it, we would indeed be directly interrogating some basic cultural conceptions. We may largely presuppose these concepts, (if not mind and body, subject and object) and feel more or less encapsulated in them. What a solipsist is, in my opinion is someone trapped in is the incapsulated terms of a concept of consciousness, the idea that there is some kind of certainty, more than what we can sense and reason about on certain bases, in a subject of knowledge. I think this notion is based on a fundamentally bad argument, a preconception, that is completely conditioning a modern person's world. That is why we give room for the solipsist.

The solipsist may "reasonably" come to his place of consciousness/doubt, where he finds something problematical. I guess my question to the forum is to ask, is this not more broadly symptomatic?

Maybe in the solipsist, it is most clearly seen that doubt does not have an obligatory validity, or strength in argument, and does not lead directly by any rationalization to any ground of certainty, (as Descartes proposed) but just a place of removal. Clearly questioning the validity of things, may lead us to a better understanding in avoiding error, but why should we suppose in generality, that this "skepticism", bears out the scope of the world in itself? There is no reason to assume this, because the point of cognition that Descartes gets to, "I think therefore I am" is not a distinct observation, but a rationalization that is irrelavent to the world.

It is possible not only to question not just the solipsist, but the solipsist's preconceived concept of consciousness, that would be the initial encapsulation of the notion which the solipsist seems to (to some extent reasonably) problematize. The solipsist is conducting a thought experiment in formality, and does not really believe in this sentiment. This concept of an encapsulated consciousness came at a certain point in history, prior to the way we just "assume" its basis, and we find that encapsulation in Descartes' formulation. Descartes does not reason back the world, he dogmatically assumes it. The solipsist, continues to doubt, seeking certainty.

I propose directly interrogating these concepts, in their initial encapsulation, rather than automatically assuming their validity in preconceptions, in culture, in this cabaret show that there is such thing as the westerner's cogito or "thinking thing". Is this argument any good?


Quote:


I had long before remarked that, in relation to practice, it is sometimes necessary to adopt, as if above doubt, opinions which we discern to be highly uncertain, as has been already said; but as I then desired to give my attention solely to the search after truth, I thought that a procedure exactly the opposite was called for, and that I ought to reject as absolutely false all opinions in regard to which I could suppose the least ground for doubt, in order to ascertain whether after that there remained aught in my belief that was wholly indubitable. Accordingly, seeing that our senses sometimes deceive us, I was willing to suppose that there existed nothing really such as they presented to us; and because some men err in reasoning, and fall into paralogisms, even on the simplest matters of geometry, I, convinced that I was as open to error as any other, rejected as false all the reasonings I had hitherto taken for demonstrations; and finally, when I considered that the very same thoughts (presentations) which we experience when awake may also be experienced when we are asleep, while there is at that time not one of them true, I supposed that all the objects (presentations) that had ever entered into my mind when awake, had in them no more truth than the illusions of my dreams. But immediately upon this I observed that, whilst I thus wished to think that all was false, it was absolutely necessary that I, who thus thought, should be somewhat; and as I observed that this truth, I think, therefore I am (COGITO ERGO SUM), was so certain and of such evidence that no ground of doubt, however extravagant, could be alleged by the sceptics capable of shaking it, I concluded that I might, without scruple, accept it as the first principle of the philosophy of which I was in search.

Discourse On Method.







Quote:


Thus by considering that he who strives to doubt of all is unable nevertheless to doubt that he is while he doubts, and that what reasons thus, in not being able to doubt of itself and doubting nevertheless of everything else, is not that which we call our body, but what we name our mind or thought, I have taken the existence of this thought for the first principle, from which I very clearly deduced the following truths, namely, that there is a God who is the author of all that is in the world, and who, being the source of all truth, cannot have created our understanding of such a nature as to be deceived in the judgments it forms of the things of which it possesses a very clear and distinct perception. Those are all the principles of which I avail myself touching immaterial or metaphysical objects, from which I most clearly deduce these other principles of physical or corporeal things, namely, that there are bodies extended in length, breadth, and depth, which are of diverse figures and are moved in a variety of ways.

Principles of Philosophy




Aside from this philosophical prerogative, I think we are all solipsists, culturally speaking, or at least, we gravitate and flirt about this point of eccentricity we call consciousness or mind, because that is how the game is played today. If one is to question a subject/object metaphysics, won't he be accused of an "error of method" today? From the purported enlightenment values of the intellectual in western society, to the yawning existence of an compulsively afflicted information age, an existence of people expressing themselves into a void of social media. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with it, to gripe about, but does social media "connect" us to each other, (here for instance) or perhaps create unhealthy rationalizations of ego, and identity? In short, could we not see a broader solipsism, or a more endemic problem than the narrow individual limitations and walls it is proposed in? We can thank the solipsist for bringing this problematic up.

Who indeed is beyond the narcissistic, and pathological behavior tendencies of the solipsist? Yet can we call it out?

Maybe aside from raising these questions, and considering their importance, it would make sense to say something constructive. How can we work in their terms, in our present world, to get out of this kind of alienation? Of course the turn inward toward the intellect is not something that is impossible to work out of.

When the solipsist looks in the mirror he will recognize his subjective experience, and senses, are not located at a single point. Beyond a place an inch behind the eyes, consciousness, and selfhood extends to an existing body that the solipsist undoubtedly identifies with as well. Mind extends to body. Whether that identification beyond your head, is an assumption or not, you make that assumption. That assumption can apply to one's view of others as well. If you identify with yourself, in the mirror, rather than getting caught up in the inexplicable and attractive aesthetic of that view, which is an entirely unreasonable and self harming narcissism, one may extend this same assumption of identification, and suppose that others exist in this same fashion. When you see other peoples' faces and bodies you can just as well (if you are consistent in your assumptions) assume that they have a bridged, corresponding mental experience as well.

Make sense? That is the constructive solution to solipsism. Recognize that you make assumptions to identify with yourself, and that you can charitably offer others this same assumption.

As for the argument of fundamental doubt, that we may be basically dreaming, and that our senses and identifications with things might not be trusted, keep in mind that argument of doubt is based on a specific analogy, that we presently have access to. To suggest that something is beyond our present reality and experience, analogously to that analogy, is perhaps possible, but different. Therefore recognize that the "real" is conceived in somewhat these certain terms, as certain as they are. Perhaps that would be helpful to think about.

In short, this is not to say that the visceral reality and confirmations of our senses we receive are "real" but that they are the most real basis by definition, we are going to get. They are the criterion of what we call real, and what we mean by that. Is there something beyond the senses, more fundamental to existence that is worth seeking? Is there something analogous to a dream, in this way? That question, could maybe be left open as long as people don't get worked up or despairing about it. The real is perfectly accessible, however consistent it is.

I'll answer any specific questions if anyone has any, but I think this is it for me...

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23031043 - 03/21/16 06:52 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Is it weird that seeing this thread going round and round in circles has been quite saddening to me? It's definitely the first time that a thread on an internet forum has made me feel that way.

I really hope that we can all learn some lessons from this. I feel like it's had quite an effect.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23031083 - 03/21/16 07:00 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
oh so you actually aren't saying anything lol

well being uncertain about things is hardly solipsism, that's more just a sane approach to life

solipsism is more like believing you are the only thing in existence and everything else is in your mind.. that is pretty silly and as i have argued society is primary to the self which you could test by getting a haircut



Is irrefutable as you cannot prove that it isn't all a construct of your mind and not real.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #23031152 - 03/21/16 07:15 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Would you just shut up with that at this point, please.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23031256 - 03/21/16 07:38 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Hey Thanatos, are you a fan of the philosopher Descartes?
He posited the same problem as you and tried to see if he could prove that reality was more than just an illusion. Specifically, that reality wasn't an illusion created by some kind of demiurge (like a half-god basically)

In the end, he couldn't prove that reality wasn't an illusion since we're pretty much reliant on our senses and our senses are fallible.

All he could say for sure was that he knew he existed. It could be an illusion, it could be a delusion but he for sure existed. Since he was able to ask the question of whether reality existed, there obviously was a reality that one could ask questions about. "I think therefore I am"

Anyway, I'd love to hear you expand on your reasoning of why you think this is just an illusion! :cheers:


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #23031282 - 03/21/16 07:46 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Would you just shut up with that at this point, please.



see what i was saying earlier?

i'm telling ya'll...the proof is in Thanatos being taken by each one of us and given a noogie, separately, than together, than in alternating pairs and triads, endlessly noogieing him until he finally collapsed his reasoning, out of pure fatigue, and then we eject him into space, and he sees how he copes.

this is the only way. in the end, he'll be dying for more noogies.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #23031473 - 03/21/16 08:32 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

it is a bit weird.. i feel like i made my point a while ago and it just keeps getting drawn on

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Is irrefutable as you cannot prove that it isn't all a construct of your mind and not real.




sure you cant prove it.. in a sense everything is a construct of your mind

so what?

in a sense your mind is a construct of your childhood, culture, position in society, what you interact with etc..

in a sense you are inside a world, with rules and laws that can be tested and learnt about.. are you trying to deny that?

*noogies head*


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: quinn]
    #23031508 - 03/21/16 08:42 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

I have never seen a debate with Thantos go anywhere apart from round and round and round and round and round. It's unlikely that is gonna change anytime soon. I don't know why we keep engaging in it.


--------------------
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23031624 - 03/21/16 09:11 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Just remember that this thread and the nihilism threads from a while ago were initiated with an appeal for help in escaping from stubborn thought patterns. Whatever happened after the OP, he did come here asking for aid.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #23031646 - 03/21/16 09:17 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Yes, but based on these threads it is quite easy to see a pattern emerging.

1. Ask for help
2. Refute all help offered
3. Return to standpoint that nothing exists
4. ???
5. Profit

I'd do as much as I can to help someone who came here asking for help. But when you repeatedly see the person that asked for help throwing it back in the face of everyone that tries to provide it, with not a single word of thanks or sign of appreciation shown, you surely most consider if there is any point continuing the cycle?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23031701 - 03/21/16 09:34 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Yeah I've considered it, and I reply to these posts without much investment in the outcome. But, assuming Thanatos' engagement here has been genuine, then the words that formed the pattern you laid out are all symptomatic of whatever is going on in his mind.

I guess I made that last reply to remind us of the whole context of these conversations, as people seem to get upset by his patterns. Dude seems to be drowning in his mind, surfaces to ask for help, then dives back down for a while.

I wonder--if someone slapped him, would the ocean disappear?  :strokebeard:

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #23031713 - 03/21/16 09:37 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

DisoRDeR said:
Yeah I've considered it, and I reply to these posts without much investment in the outcome. But, assuming Thanatos' engagement here has been genuine, then the words that formed the pattern you laid out are all symptomatic of whatever is going on in his mind.

I guess I made that last reply to remind us of the whole context of these conversations, as people seem to get upset by his patterns. Dude seems to be drowning in his mind, surfaces to ask for help, then dives back down for a while.

I wonder--if someone slapped him, would the ocean disappear?  :strokebeard:




That's well said. :thumbup:


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt] * 1
    #23031831 - 03/21/16 10:11 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Kurt said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
But there is no burden on it to argue anything.




Although I am skeptical that we are all on the same page (well duh), I would agree with you there.

Maybe there is no burden of argument for the solipsist, then let there be no further psychological clinging to things being "real" or "confirmed" in the way the solipsist has in disparity, expressed. That is what I think a real closure would be to argument. I enjoyed this thread.

I wonder if anyone reading this knew that solipsism is a recent philosophical invention? I did not. It was coined in the 19th century apparently. To me this confirms my own stance. I think you can guess that its terms are mainly found in point of contact with a modern western philosophical tradition's concept of consciousness, and are apparently derived from them.

I think we begin with the relatively grounded point which we all know, which is that nobody in a positive sense, believes in solipsism. It may be a formality, a flaring, rhetorical expression of doubt, or maybe a "thought experiment". In any case its expression, as I understand,  effectively problemetizes a "given" concept of consciousness, and how we would be trapped in it. I think that is what is going on.

Yet is consciousness necessarily a "given"?

I think it is interesting that a solipsist does not only problematize a concept of consciousness, but comes to formulate what is itself in the traditional encapsulation of this concept, given in western philosophy. Thanatos, you have already expressed that "we could be dreaming", and that therefore everything from our senses, to mathematical and scientific knowledge, and whatever other seemingly necessary general inductions about being in the world we make, in general can be considered in doubt, or rather put in this crisis.

This is exactly Descartes' argument, actually, and it is his preconceived concept, that I think a solipsist is leaning to represent. Only the solipsist is consistent in that there is a problem with this.

In modern idealism, the existence of consciousness is not an ordinary claim, or any kind of empirical observation, but expressed formally or philosophically as what escapes the terms of such concrete investigation, or quantification. It is often insinuated that because it is tied up in any conception of things, as a subject's relation to an object, that we must consider it. A "conscious subject" (which is differently conceived than a "subject" of biology, or a subject of physics, and so on...) is said to be formally necessary or constitutive of what we call a "sense experience" or an "observation". A subject relates to an object, in a broad and rather complex formulation of epistemology, where we have two kinds of "subjects" to consider (both conscious subjects, and subjects of enquiry, as in hypokeimenon.

In short, in modern epistemology, where we talk about conscious subjects meeting objects in general, we do not only address the potential of science (the subject of knowledge) but what is constitutive in such a relation, in any understanding of knowledge. Note: I can clarify what I mean by this broader epistemelogical construct, but I don't want to diverge from the point, so feel free to ask questions later.).

I do not think there is anything wrong with this in short, as a way to broadly organize our pursuit and gathering of knowledge. The idea the modern philosopher suggests, that a conscious subject or mind "escapes" the terms it is often tied up with, as an observer, is also not unreasonable even. So far as we work in preconceived terms, of subjects and objects, it is reasonable to assume conscious subjects do indeed "exist". But why should we?

If the solipsist were to realize that by rationalization (not any actual affair, or observation in the world, but in an invested conception) Descartes himself gets effectively "trapped" at the point of his doubt, in his proposed slant of argument "I think therefore I am" this should raise questions of the merits of his more general approach. Why should we vest in the absolute "intellectual" certainty, which that proposition suggests?

Descartes is indeed effectively a solipsist. After doubting the senses, and all reasonable inductive bases of knowledge to arrive at a better basis or "subject" of knowledge, (ie. overthrowing Aristotle's hypokeimenon, as subject) he doesn't get the world back by any reasonable manner, but rather, after coming to a point of doubt, he has to invoke god, to suggest the existence of things. That is how the argument actually goes.

Is that reasonable, especially if after this fanfare of this being a purportedly skeptical or rational approach? We may say no, that this would not be reasonable, and yet we largely come to this place. We assume his "method" of doubt, and the reasoning that leads to formulation of this concept of "consciousness", and suppose it leads to some form of certainty, in the cogito, the "I think" or this generally enduring intellectualism. We suppose this approach really does reach a relevant point of certainty that is not only relavent to the world, but bearing the possible scope of our assumptions about the world. It is a conscious subject. Hence we think about a mind and body, and in more rarified technical conceptions, a concept of conscious subject and object.

I am not proposing recognizing this questionable connotation about western philosophical tradition just for one person's benefit, (because by definition I think the solipsistic mind seems to go blank at certain points) but I think generally by recognizing a problem, in solipsism, and grappling with it, we would indeed be directly interrogating some basic cultural conceptions. We may largely presuppose these concepts, (if not mind and body, subject and object) and feel more or less encapsulated in them. What a solipsist is, in my opinion is someone trapped in is the incapsulated terms of a concept of consciousness, the idea that there is some kind of certainty, more than what we can sense and reason about on certain bases, in a subject of knowledge. I think this notion is based on a fundamentally bad argument, a preconception, that is completely conditioning a modern person's world. That is why we give room for the solipsist.

The solipsist may "reasonably" come to his place of consciousness/doubt, where he finds something problematical. I guess my question to the forum is to ask, is this not more broadly symptomatic?

Maybe in the solipsist, it is most clearly seen that doubt does not have an obligatory validity, or strength in argument, and does not lead directly by any rationalization to any ground of certainty, (as Descartes proposed) but just a place of removal. Clearly questioning the validity of things, may lead us to a better understanding in avoiding error, but why should we suppose in generality, that this "skepticism", bears out the scope of the world in itself? There is no reason to assume this, because the point of cognition that Descartes gets to, "I think therefore I am" is not a distinct observation, but a rationalization that is irrelavent to the world.

It is possible not only to question not just the solipsist, but the solipsist's preconceived concept of consciousness, that would be the initial encapsulation of the notion which the solipsist seems to (to some extent reasonably) problematize. The solipsist is conducting a thought experiment in formality, and does not really believe in this sentiment. This concept of an encapsulated consciousness came at a certain point in history, prior to the way we just "assume" its basis, and we find that encapsulation in Descartes' formulation. Descartes does not reason back the world, he dogmatically assumes it. The solipsist, continues to doubt, seeking certainty.

I propose directly interrogating these concepts, in their initial encapsulation, rather than automatically assuming their validity in preconceptions, in culture, in this cabaret show that there is such thing as the westerner's cogito or "thinking thing". Is this argument any good?


Quote:


I had long before remarked that, in relation to practice, it is sometimes necessary to adopt, as if above doubt, opinions which we discern to be highly uncertain, as has been already said; but as I then desired to give my attention solely to the search after truth, I thought that a procedure exactly the opposite was called for, and that I ought to reject as absolutely false all opinions in regard to which I could suppose the least ground for doubt, in order to ascertain whether after that there remained aught in my belief that was wholly indubitable. Accordingly, seeing that our senses sometimes deceive us, I was willing to suppose that there existed nothing really such as they presented to us; and because some men err in reasoning, and fall into paralogisms, even on the simplest matters of geometry, I, convinced that I was as open to error as any other, rejected as false all the reasonings I had hitherto taken for demonstrations; and finally, when I considered that the very same thoughts (presentations) which we experience when awake may also be experienced when we are asleep, while there is at that time not one of them true, I supposed that all the objects (presentations) that had ever entered into my mind when awake, had in them no more truth than the illusions of my dreams. But immediately upon this I observed that, whilst I thus wished to think that all was false, it was absolutely necessary that I, who thus thought, should be somewhat; and as I observed that this truth, I think, therefore I am (COGITO ERGO SUM), was so certain and of such evidence that no ground of doubt, however extravagant, could be alleged by the sceptics capable of shaking it, I concluded that I might, without scruple, accept it as the first principle of the philosophy of which I was in search.

Discourse On Method.







Quote:


Thus by considering that he who strives to doubt of all is unable nevertheless to doubt that he is while he doubts, and that what reasons thus, in not being able to doubt of itself and doubting nevertheless of everything else, is not that which we call our body, but what we name our mind or thought, I have taken the existence of this thought for the first principle, from which I very clearly deduced the following truths, namely, that there is a God who is the author of all that is in the world, and who, being the source of all truth, cannot have created our understanding of such a nature as to be deceived in the judgments it forms of the things of which it possesses a very clear and distinct perception. Those are all the principles of which I avail myself touching immaterial or metaphysical objects, from which I most clearly deduce these other principles of physical or corporeal things, namely, that there are bodies extended in length, breadth, and depth, which are of diverse figures and are moved in a variety of ways.

Principles of Philosophy




Aside from this philosophical prerogative, I think we are all solipsists, culturally speaking, or at least, we gravitate and flirt about this point of eccentricity we call consciousness or mind, because that is how the game is played today. If one is to question a subject/object metaphysics, won't he be accused of an "error of method" today? From the purported enlightenment values of the intellectual in western society, to the yawning existence of an compulsively afflicted information age, an existence of people expressing themselves into a void of social media. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with it, to gripe about, but does social media "connect" us to each other, (here for instance) or perhaps create unhealthy rationalizations of ego, and identity? In short, could we not see a broader solipsism, or a more endemic problem than the narrow individual limitations and walls it is proposed in? We can thank the solipsist for bringing this problematic up.

Who indeed is beyond the narcissistic, and pathological behavior tendencies of the solipsist? Yet can we call it out?

Maybe aside from raising these questions, and considering their importance, it would make sense to say something constructive. How can we work in their terms, in our present world, to get out of this kind of alienation? Of course the turn inward toward the intellect is not something that is impossible to work out of.

When the solipsist looks in the mirror he will recognize his subjective experience, and senses, are not located at a single point. Beyond a place an inch behind the eyes, consciousness, and selfhood extends to an existing body that the solipsist undoubtedly identifies with as well. Mind extends to body. Whether that identification beyond your head, is an assumption or not, you make that assumption. That assumption can apply to one's view of others as well. If you identify with yourself, in the mirror, rather than getting caught up in the inexplicable and attractive aesthetic of that view, which is an entirely unreasonable and self harming narcissism, one may extend this same assumption of identification, and suppose that others exist in this same fashion. When you see other peoples' faces and bodies you can just as well (if you are consistent in your assumptions) assume that they have a bridged, corresponding mental experience as well.

Make sense? That is the constructive solution to solipsism. Recognize that you make assumptions to identify with yourself, and that you can charitably offer others this same assumption.

As for the argument of fundamental doubt, that we may be basically dreaming, and that our senses and identifications with things might not be trusted, keep in mind that argument of doubt is based on a specific analogy, that we presently have access to. To suggest that something is beyond our present reality and experience, analogously to that analogy, is perhaps possible, but different. Therefore recognize that the "real" is conceived in somewhat these certain terms, as certain as they are. Perhaps that would be helpful to think about.

In short, this is not to say that the visceral reality and confirmations of our senses we receive are "real" but that they are the most real basis by definition, we are going to get. They are the criterion of what we call real, and what we mean by that. Is there something beyond the senses, more fundamental to existence that is worth seeking? Is there something analogous to a dream, in this way? That question, could maybe be left open as long as people don't get worked up or despairing about it. The real is perfectly accessible, however consistent it is.

I'll answer any specific questions if anyone has any, but I think this is it for me...




Much to digest, but I'll mull it over for a little while. Whether or not this is "real" it's as real as it's going to get with our senses. Whatever I thought to be real before this isn't really going to change as my senses remain. .

The most troubling thing is sight being an illusion. That's what's it for me.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23033597 - 03/22/16 12:12 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

You guys are getting trolled hard here.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: viktor] * 1
    #23033867 - 03/22/16 01:46 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

"Trolling" is just the behavior of a genuine solipsist, isn't it? :shrug:

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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #23033906 - 03/22/16 02:00 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

One would think so


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23033999 - 03/22/16 02:35 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

But then again aside from finding a fitting label, there is probably not such thing as a genuine solipsist. :

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #23034654 - 03/22/16 05:14 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Thanatos hasn't answered any of my posts :sad:


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Offlinepartinobodycular
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #23035224 - 03/22/16 08:02 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Please Kurt, don't mistake silence, for non-existence.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: partinobodycular]
    #23035356 - 03/22/16 08:44 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

It seems the more I learn about it the greater a waste of time it seems


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23035374 - 03/22/16 08:50 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

yes, solipsism is a waste of time.

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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: partinobodycular]
    #23035524 - 03/22/16 09:34 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Point taken. (sincerely)

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23036018 - 03/23/16 12:15 AM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
Thanatos hasn't answered any of my posts :sad:



Unfortunate that ain't it? You seem to be one of the most qualified to discuss this topic IMO, seeing as it's a condition you say you have known and have moved through..


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Offlinepartinobodycular
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23036061 - 03/23/16 12:48 AM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
It seems the more I learn about it the greater a waste of time it seems



If it doesn't serve to change anything, then you're right, it's a waste of time. But I would submit that it has the power to change the most important thing of all....you. You may disagree. That's your choice. In which case you're right, it's a waste of time.  I can't help but wonder though, how much have you truly learned about solipsism, if you've never actually spoken to one.

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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23036141 - 03/23/16 01:37 AM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

partinobodycular said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
It seems the more I learn about it the greater a waste of time it seems



If it doesn't serve to change anything, then you're right, it's a waste of time. But I would submit that it has the power to change the most important thing of all....you. You may disagree. That's your choice. In which case you're right, it's a waste of time.  I can't help but wonder though, how much have you truly learned about solipsism, if you've never actually spoken to one.




One doesn't really have to speak to one to know about it. I have known before about the whole "what if it's a dream" stunt, but I never gave it much more thought because it doesn't really matter. The answers to that are essentially the same. The more you pull it apart the less value you find in it.

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
Thanatos hasn't answered any of my posts :sad:




Because there really isn't anything to answer to. You basically said you didn't know how you came out of it so what am I suppose to do with that?


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #23036229 - 03/23/16 02:58 AM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
You guys are getting trolled hard here.




Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
It seems the more I learn about it the greater a waste of time it seems




Quote:

akira_akuma said:
yes, solipsism is a waste of time.




--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Offlinepartinobodycular
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23036531 - 03/23/16 07:45 AM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:  One doesn't really have to speak to one to know about it. I have known before about the whole "what if it's a dream" stunt, but I never gave it much more thought because it doesn't really matter.



So you don't believe that there's any value in speaking to someone who's been a solipsist for forty years. Someone who's had to deal with the same issues and questions that you're dealing with now. If you truly believe that there's no value in that, then I suppose that you're right. But on the other hand, maybe there's a point of view which you haven't adequately considered. And maybe, just maybe, there's something that you can learn from listening to that point of view.

Quote:

The answers to that are essentially the same. The more you pull it apart the less value you find in it.



I would posit that solipsism holds up to being "pulled apart" far better than any other ideology. But I would also posit, that there's no truth which cannot be dismissed by someone sufficiently determined to do so.

Edited by partinobodycular (03/23/16 07:48 AM)

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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: partinobodycular]
    #23037009 - 03/23/16 10:34 AM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

partinobodycular said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:  One doesn't really have to speak to one to know about it. I have known before about the whole "what if it's a dream" stunt, but I never gave it much more thought because it doesn't really matter.



So you don't believe that there's any value in speaking to someone who's been a solipsist for forty years. Someone who's had to deal with the same issues and questions that you're dealing with now. If you truly believe that there's no value in that, then I suppose that you're right. But on the other hand, maybe there's a point of view which you haven't adequately considered. And maybe, just maybe, there's something that you can learn from listening to that point of view.

Quote:

The answers to that are essentially the same. The more you pull it apart the less value you find in it.



I would posit that solipsism holds up to being "pulled apart" far better than any other ideology. But I would also posit, that there's no truth which cannot be dismissed by someone sufficiently determined to do so.




It actually doesn't because the answers it gives don't really satisfy.

Plus I don't really have anything to gain from someone who sticks to a view based on belief, since there is no way to prove it (it's pretty much a belief). There's nothing to learn from a solipsist as my entry into this little bit has showed me. It's just a loop that goes nowhere and only causes distress. It's no wonder people call it a dead end.


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23037148 - 03/23/16 11:11 AM (8 years, 26 days ago)

I know exactly how I came out of it.

If you do exactly this, you will escape this quick sand:

Start exercising 3 hours a day
Improve your diet
Practice yoga and meditation
Go to community events like concerts and comedy shows
Love yourself
Do nice things for people
Smoke less pot
Spend less time on the shroomery


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #23037428 - 03/23/16 12:25 PM (8 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

EternalCowabunga said:
I know exactly how I came out of it.

If you do exactly this, you will escape this quick sand:

Start exercising 3 hours a day
Improve your diet
Practice yoga and meditation
Go to community events like concerts and comedy shows
Love yourself
Do nice things for people
Smoke less pot
Spend less time on the shroomery




I don't smoke pot and I hate the community and people in general. You can't love yourself because you don't exist. I already exercise and meditate and it doesn't do anything.

You don't know how you came out of it and I doubt you even had it. For if you did and believed this world illusion then the above would have don't nothing at all. I know where I stand, you don't.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10]
    #23037671 - 03/23/16 01:34 PM (8 years, 25 days ago)

Dude, chill out Thanatos... It is already clear to everyone that you have no argumentative grounds. We worked this out. Your argumentative attitude, on the other hand and these emotional flare ups is what you have to look to as they are.

EternalCowabunga is just speaking from his experience, and he is one of the more genuine and sincere posters around here. It seems like of anyone here, he has both thought about, and viscerally engaged what we are talking about. Read his posts with insight. I'd say he has a bit more temerity and spirit than many of us, and I suspect that essential difference is under it all, what you are reacting to.

Now he has just put it in basic down to earth terms. Everyone knows the deal. You get what you work for. Thanatos, you seem to me to react to the idea of self discipline, and yet you've never tried it. You have no basis to question it.

We all struggle in a broad sense. I wonder, do you realize though that philosophical argument (not just contentiousness) requires sincerity? It is not just spurning off whatever you think you might be able to say in a given moment, or taking an attitude on the internet where there are no consequences to what you say. You have proven again and again that you lack any consistency in view, or any develop any closure in your conclusions, either for our sake or your own.

It is hard to draw lines, but today you make it easy, when you attack someone pretty unjustifiably, who has here been completely sincere. You've seemed to ignore that, in general, and yet advice is sincerely given, in more than one case. This one seems to stand out to me.

While we may say you are not an internet troll, and genuinely seem to have issues with connecting to the world and other people, and may have problems with authority in general, for the forum's sake, I think it's got to be said, you can't just come in here and shit on people. This community is pretty righteous, and it holds a certain standard. So we would recommend and hope that you consider taking a break from this. Start assuming some responsibility for yourself, and then you can make intellectual arguments. Aside from what EternalCowabunga just said, I think that this is the best thing anyone can say to you.

Edited by Kurt (03/23/16 03:29 PM)

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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Kurt]
    #23037911 - 03/23/16 02:49 PM (8 years, 25 days ago)

Except that person is least qualified to be be giving me advice. He hasn't been where I am, or been through my experiences. I even doubt that he really has been trough it and is just giving the same canned reply that people who don't understand give.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #23038196 - 03/23/16 04:34 PM (8 years, 25 days ago)

Good Christ you are boring. Don't you have some other teenagers you can whine to?


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Re: Solipsism aid [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #23038207 - 03/23/16 04:35 PM (8 years, 25 days ago)

Not only is that incredibly insulting but very dismissive. Which is part of the reason why you are stuck, because you just dismiss all the help and advice people give you.
I gave you very specific advice like you asked and I also tried to show you that I've been in that same place as you.

I guess I should have expected to this but it still sucks to be dismissed like that. Like I was just an asshole trying to hurt you. I've been in the same place so I understand where you are coming from; I just thought that you could trust me more since I've been through the same thing

This is breaking my heart. I feel like I have the chance here to go back in time and help myself. I say myself and not Thanatos because I see Thanatos as a past version of myself so really he is part of me. We are connected.

No matter what I say now it's just words from an arrogant asshole who gets off on giving shitty advice to strangers who he has no love for.

Good luck Thanatos.


--------------------

Edited by EternalCowabunga (03/23/16 04:41 PM)

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