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Offlinefivepointer
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Registered: 08/03/02
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Re: I am so sick and tired of Christianity [Re: Morel Guy]
    #22979949 - 03/06/16 06:34 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Morel Guy said:
All that proves is that the religion was pointless to begin with.  If salvation was always there and just required a name.



People are not saved outside the gospel being believed and the person being converted, The Holy Spirit being given to reside with the person.





That is because people were murdered for not believing much like Muslims do today.



The act of believing does not merit anything, it is a gift from above, for the Christian.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: I am so sick and tired of Christianity [Re: fivepointer]
    #22980171 - 03/06/16 07:33 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:

The race is condemned as a result of the first transgression and Fall of man, the nature of man changed in the Fall. 




It's always fascinated me that a woman is responsible for the fall of man.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I am so sick and tired of Christianity [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #22980349 - 03/06/16 08:29 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Why does everyone deserve eternal damnation?




I realize this was not directed at me, but the doctrine of Original Sin was developed by Augustine of Hippo early in Christian history. Very little is said about "Gehenna," or "Hell," in the canonical Bible, but it was developed as a theological doctrine far more to frighten and control people, than as a credible fate for having offended the very Creator of the universe. People lived in a much smaller cosmos in those days with a flat earth, a domed sky, and presumably a sulphurous volcanic underworld. Gehenna, an actual garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, where fires were continually stoked to burn filth and perhaps corpses, was a place undoubtedly over-run with vermin, and this served as a metaphor for a condition of punishment that would occur after death.

But back to Augustine's rather slick theological arguments based on the Genesis myth of Adam and Eve, wherein our Primal Parents disobeyed a divine order and were punished for their transgression. This disobedience is then said to be inherited by all human beings. Genesis doesn't speak to damnation, but provides a myth for the cause of human strife, painful childbirth, and the presence of evil into the world. Some of the Genesis myth was appropriated from the older Gilgamesh Epic of the Babylonians, where instead of a "fruit of knowledge of good and evil" there was 'an herb of immortality,' that their the serpent steals. But I digress. Augustine's doctrines made every human being to be 'utterly depraved from birth,' and the ONLY means of reversing a sentence of 'eternal damnation' and unthinkable punishments forever and ever by a loving God :rolleyes: is to 'believe in' the salvific power of Jesus Christ.

In Catholic Christianity which ruled the West until the Protestant Reformation, the way Christ was mediated to sinners was through the sacrament of the Eucharist. So if one displeased church authorities and was denied access to the Eucharist (excommunicated), one 'believed' that Hell was the destination after death. Medieval artists of a sadistic bent fancifully described Hell (Hieronymus Bosch's triptych 'The Garden of Earthy Delights' contains my favorite depiction of Hell and is rife with social-political commentary and psychoanalytical, scatological elements). Except among those who 'believe' in universal salvation, there remains the intentionally frightening thought of eternal punishment. The development of Hell as a theological idea is interesting intellectually and historically. It draws on Jewish and Greek myths of an underworld which aren't really articulated until Christianity gets ahold of the concept. If Hell is created - something I like to point out - then it cannot be eternal, by definition. In Islam, Hell is temporary and takes the same role that Catholics assigned to Purgatory - for purgation, cleansing, not everlasting torment. Of course, eternity does not admit of parts or duration. It is not the same thing as everlasting time, since time also is created and presumably ends.

Judaism never had anything like Original Sin, it had and has a notion of the Good Impulse and an Evil Impulse (Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Hara respectively). Jesus himself speaks of righteous people, for example in John 1:47: "Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and said of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!," yet those brainwashed by dogma will respond with a verse that ignores the obvious when the obvious is the more honest such as "...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23 and say that this means that even good old Nicodemus is damned unless he believed such-and-such. The thing about Romans is that it was merely a letter written by Paul of Tarsus to the churches in Rome. But the dogmatic Christian, believes that these letters are the very words of Almighty God. Paul's letters to the churches were just letters for crying out loud!  Paul (and there are several books of the Bible that were written AS Paul but their style is quite different, so they are from other authors or Paul had multiple personalities)! You cannot teach egalitarianism for women in one place, for example, Galatians 3:28 "There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female," and teach that women are subordinate to their husbands in everything somewhere else! "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church..." in Ephesans 5:22-23. Paul was in error about a lot of things - the impending ending of the world being #1, and his misunderstanding about the end of time being a historical event #2 by corollary. Yes, we post-moderns can criticize biblical authors for their errors IMO.

Bottom Line: Christianity is rife with contradiction, hypocrisy, and culture-bound aspects that are no longer relevant (e.g., how to treat women and slaves). As rev. John Shelby Spong put it as the title of one of his books: Christianity Must Change or Die. The so-called Fundamentalist (Literalist) Christian attempts to continue in long obsolete, oppressive ideas and practices exactly as the Fundamentalist Muslim attempts to do! Fundamentalism is a heresy and an abomination to the freedom and well being of human beings. Relative to threatening one's child with Hell for being disobedient, or even teaching a child that God puts people in Hell, makes the piss-poor parenting that teaches Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny completely insignificant in terms of damaging a child's early development.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
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Re: I am so sick and tired of Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22980405 - 03/06/16 08:46 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Genesis doesn't speak to damnation, but provides a myth for the cause of human strife, painful childbirth, and the presence of evil into the world.




i wish people would just ... just read Genesis, and take it on it's own merits...and research the origins of the Bible, and what parts of it our contemporaneous of the time, and which parts have been added, regarded as what, by whom...there is literally so much research that can go into it, because what most people don't seem to realize is it's fucking old writings all of which the original writings have been lost, and not to mention that everyone, entirely, lived an utterly different existence than we do now, and thus thought completely differently...not only in general, but also about God, and about religion, and about literature...and history...literally everything!

it's too bad that this simple foundation cannot be achieved by most of the world's practitioners. :uhoh:


Edited by akira_akuma (03/07/16 03:12 PM)


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: I am so sick and tired of Christianity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22980860 - 03/06/16 11:03 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:

Relative to threatening one's child with Hell for being disobedient, or even teaching a child that God puts people in Hell, makes the piss-poor parenting that teaches Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny completely insignificant in terms of damaging a child's early development.





Jesus would roll over in his grave if he knew how his teachings have mutated.

Much of the wisdom of Jesus has been lost due to the heaven, hell, sin, and Satan stuff from Biblical authors


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
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Re: I am so sick and tired of Christianity [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #22981708 - 03/07/16 08:05 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The development of Hell as a theological idea is interesting intellectually and historically. It draws on Jewish and Greek myths of an underworld which aren't really articulated until Christianity gets ahold of the concept. If Hell is created - something I like to point out - then it cannot be eternal, by definition. In Islam, Hell is temporary and takes the same role that Catholics assigned to Purgatory - for purgation, cleansing, not everlasting torment.




The paranoid, world denying and hating Christians appropriated the Celtic pagan belief in a Faeryland of the 'Good People' where post-death one went to and had a wonderful time, in beautiful places full of streams and flowers etc and substituted a hellish realm of Satan, as well as that also a 'purgatorial' 'grey waiting room' where one was 'purged of sin'--like a halfwayhouse
This faeryland was a dimension that is always 'here' though in a deeper dimension and only those shoe are seers can experience it in this life. I am sure many psychedelically experienced people know this land also lol, and encrypted in pagan folkloreand fairytales will be references to the very vegetation that can open the portal to these dimensions
Archaic England: An Essay in Deciphering Prehistory from Megalithic ...

I mean what does one say about belief systems that instill such a miserable paranoid fear into children and adults as do the belief systems, especially Christianity with its everlasting hell and 'devil'. It is evil, but we also must ask WHY? What is the method of such insanity, and of course it was/is to divide people/'slaves' from the land, and from their own natures and community of fellow others and other species, and via fear-based mindcontrol have them shuddering and clinging to the authority spinning this BS. This is what 9/11 was/is all about. It is the same insidious formula they use.


Edited by zzripz (03/07/16 08:07 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I am so sick and tired of Christianity [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #22982033 - 03/07/16 11:34 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:

Relative to threatening one's child with Hell for being disobedient, or even teaching a child that God puts people in Hell, makes the piss-poor parenting that teaches Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny completely insignificant in terms of damaging a child's early development.





Jesus would roll over in his grave if he knew how his teachings have mutated.

Much of the wisdom of Jesus has been lost due to the heaven, hell, sin, and Satan stuff from Biblical authors




Behind everything is bibliolatry and the Bible serves as a life raft for many who are too fearful to use their own God-given intelligence and empathy for themselves.  For example "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk" - Deuteronomy 14:21 is NOT a commandment to NOT eat cheeseburgers. If anything it should evoke compassion and empathy for a fellow mammal, and should serve as a moral allegory. Otherwise it remains an absurd order from an inscrutable deity. That is why there is an exegetical method for determining on which level to interpret these writings. But such technicality is wasted on the foolish literalist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis)


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I am so sick and tired of Christianity [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #22982036 - 03/07/16 11:35 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

"Indubitably."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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