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InvisibleJohn
ssdp.org

Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 7,026
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
What happens when you die?
    #2297442 - 02/03/04 10:25 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

???

Just wondering what some of you guys think, sorry if there have been a million of these threads already, but if there has, well peoples precptions change all the time. maybe some of you have a diffrent idea than you had last time you anwsered the question. thanks for any replies :stoned:

oh yeah you don't have to get into every detail I know sometimes peoples beliefs are hard to express through writing and what not and sometimes just go on a understanding or gut feeling you have, just a general idea of what you think :sun:


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There's a thin line between sanity and insanity... and I just snorted it.


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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2297536 - 02/03/04 10:51 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

nothing and everything happen all in one moment and for eternity.

lol make sense? doesn't to me either


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2298117 - 02/04/04 01:22 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The correct answer is


I don't know.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2298146 - 02/04/04 01:26 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

just make something up

the dead aren't gonna know the difference


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2298397 - 02/04/04 02:46 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"The correct answer is
I don't know."


right but I don't think he's looking for that answer.... lol I'm usually the first to say "we don't know shit about anything" heh but I think he's looking for cool guesses :wink:

I shouldn't speak for him though


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

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Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2298565 - 02/04/04 03:34 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

How dare you contaminate my profound truth with your meager suppositions!



joke. :lol:

I think you are right.  In time jtryptamine, in time.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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InvisibleJohn
ssdp.org

Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 7,026
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Re: What happens when you die? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2298887 - 02/04/04 06:48 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

yeah i was just looking for your guys therories i already have a good one i think, that involes energy (life/spirit whatever you wanna call it) and carriers (physical body) and how energy is never destroyed just carriers change, change to what, well i have no fuckin clue maybe another human body or maybe something completly incomprenhendable (probably really fucked the spelling of that :tongue:) to our minds at this time or maybe our energy changes carriers everynight, like how do you know you were in the same carrier (physical body) that you were the day before? one would say "what about all my memories and such?" but think about a computer when you power it down and the next morning turn it on again it has a diffrent source of energy but still retains all the files/memory it had the day before. the body would act as a battery of sorts keeping the memory while the energy isn't flowing through it (sleep) and when the battery (body) dies this is what we interpet as death but what is really lost is just a storage file of memories not the energy itself. anyway that's what i believe, your right we'll never now until it happens but i really like thinking about it.


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There's a thin line between sanity and insanity... and I just snorted it.


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InvisibleTODAY
Battletoad
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Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2298946 - 02/04/04 07:03 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

if there is something then it will probably be a good place where we all can hopefully meet up with our passed friends and family. i've got a buddy that is there right now so hopefully he's getting comfortable and making room for me and all my other friends when we go.

if there is nothing when we die then it can't be bad because, well...it is nothing...you know?


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2298999 - 02/04/04 07:18 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The reason I don't really care to discuss life after death is because everyone's theories seem transparent in the sense that they are designed to serve a personal need.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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InvisibleHelp on the Way
Slipknot420

Registered: 08/13/00
Posts: 2,893
Loc: Another World
Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2299001 - 02/04/04 07:19 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Dude this question drives me nuts. It's crazy because we are all here, and all alive. And we know that death is very real, we know that it happens, and we know it will one day happen to us. But it's crazy that NOBODY here really has any clue about it, even though some people say they are sure they know what happens, i dont know how they could unless they had already died.

I've had level 5 ego loss trips, which is interesting becaue it shows you what it can be to not be. Although i really dont know how similar death is to those because your body is alive the whole time. Right now my closest guess to what death is like is from what ive experienced on my ego loss trips, but i could be totally wrong.

Maybe the best way to see where we are headed is to examine where we've been coming from. What happened before we were born??? Why can't we truely remember anything before we were born? What was there? As far as i know, nothing. My universe was created when my life was created, and maybe the universe will end (or be completed) when i end. However, i cannot remember my birth either, and that doesnt mean it didn't happen. Maybe there was something going on before we were born, but it was just too different for us to understand in human state.

That's a very interesting battery idea. I've never thought about that before. I'm kind of confused about it though. Are we the energy that is powering the computer? So once we leave our memory of our life leaves, but we still are our souls or whatever, just existing in a different state?. Or are we the computer, and the energy running us is the energy of the universe, so once we die, we are gone forever and the energy returns to the universe. Or maybe both?

I dont know if this post made any sense.


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:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter


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InvisibleTODAY
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Posts: 10,218
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #2299049 - 02/04/04 07:28 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Slipknot420 said:
I dont know if this post made any sense.




perfect sense...everything you've said i have pondered...i just never put it into words.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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InvisibleJohn
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Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 7,026
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #2299196 - 02/04/04 08:18 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

That's a very interesting battery idea. I've never thought about that before. I'm kind of confused about it though. Are we the energy that is powering the computer?




what does we or I actually mean though? physically our body would be the computer and that could be interpited as we or I, but moreso i think actually life itself, like a "soul", not the physical body but just the life source would be considered the energy, in long term the body would really have no purpose other than a channel for the energy to flow and there really isn't such a thing as death as most see it as an end of everything or heaven or hell or whatever because nothing is actually dieing, the carrier has served it purpose and deteroiates but the source in which gave that carrier actual life cannot be destroyed, just like electricty cannot be made or destroyed, just channeled through diffrent means.

Quote:

So once we leave our memory of our life leaves, but we still are our souls or whatever, just existing in a different state?. Or are we the computer, and the energy running us is the energy of the universe, so once we die, we are gone forever and the energy returns to the universe. Or maybe both?




i think both kinda, but another thing to consider is how do you know your carrier didn't die yesterday and now you exsist as a diffrent form and tomorrow you might exist in my carrier and me in yours, like i was saying memory is stored by a computer even while the energy is not present by a battery, and bodys produce energy just like a battery allowing it to retain memories even though the energy is gone while we sleep, when we wake up we are restored with the energy and everything is normal all of our memories are intact yet we are running off a new source of energy. also about deja`vu when you feel as though you have been somewhere or saw something before but your mind says it's impossible because you had never been to that state/country/seen that program or whatever maybe it's because something profound happened to you there like if it's a street than maybe a carrier your energy was in, had died there in a horrible car wreck or something so it left an "imprint" by changing the frequency or something and these thoughts cannot be remembered by will alone since they are not part of your physical body, they are imprinted into your life source and can only be recalled by visually seening something or hearing something that triggers in our carrier the brain that produces that same frequency and we can recall it for a brief second even though we cannot fully understand what happened it just seem familar. I dunno these are just all my crazy thoughts.


Quote:

The reason I don't really care to discuss life after death is because everyone's theories seem transparent in the sense that they are designed to serve a personal need.




true enough like heaven where when you die your in a fantastic place with streets of gold and that kinda stuff i think is just a way for people who are afraid of death to be more comfortable since they believe when they die they will be in such bliss, alot of people couldn't handle life if they thought it had no point and death was actually the end of everything, they would be really scared. just about any therorys on what happens when you die ends in a happly ever after theme but the whole point of these therorys is to be comfortable of death and actually apperciate life without constant fear of when it's going to all end so of course they might be selfish but who cares if they accomplish there intended goal, i live my life without fear and am not afraid of dying at all, infact i'm anxious to figure out what really happens but i'll just wait till my time since i'm not so anxious to kill myself or anything. i like this attitude of embracing death rather than fighting it like some people screaming on there death beads terrified of dying, i just thought some others would have some cool ideas to contribute no matter how outrageous or self centered they may be i find it intersting to see how others precieve the ultimate question, and if they think about it as much as i do.


--------------------
There's a thin line between sanity and insanity... and I just snorted it.


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2299244 - 02/04/04 08:38 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I am enrolled in a class called "Life after death" that talks about this exact thing.

We just watched some documentaries and videos of doctors who have interviewed thousands of people who had NDE's while on the operating table or other disasters where they almost died or died then were brought back.

They most describe a feeling of warmth, love and patience. They often see dead ancestors and close ones. There is often times a journey into heaven or whatever they believe in. Most report having their whole lives flash before their eyes in a moment. Yet they feel everything that they felt in the moment and how they made others feel by their actions.

There is a common theme of a cosmic unity or oneness being experienced.

Most come out being less competitive afterwards, with a sense of compassion for all beings. Also with a greater appreciation of life. Less importance on the mundane, and more emphasis on love and compassion.


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2299384 - 02/04/04 09:47 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

your brain..for those of us whom it is applicable..releases a shitload of DMT...and then ashwipe's goons kick the door down..and wave M-16s in your face..while the elves are humping your leg...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinexasino
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2299401 - 02/04/04 10:01 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

as someone who realizes the value of empiricism-scientific method,the only thing i can offer is a bleak,"i dont know".

but as someone who experiences syncronicity,who has probably read the urantia book too many times,who appreciates that i have lived amongst good people who love-love for its own sake(whether or not death is the end),and just because i have a hunch--i believe we DO live in some form after our bodies die.

maybe this is just the kind of place a god would put a creation like us in,so that we might come into our own as a sovriegn being,i.e.,human beings are on a planet in the middle of 'infinity',facing mortality,so that the higher orders of beings can agree that we have worth-we,even in the face of pain and death,and the uncertainty of mortality-"is there a god", still can  recognize,and make a freewill choice,concerning the wonderment of the heavens,mind,AND the social value of ethical living.

If eye were god and i wanted to show all the 'angels',(the first archtypebeings that manifest just after god has 'willed' a universe,  immortal-and not subject to our conditions of existence?),that humans were of any worth as beings--I WOULD PUT THEM(us) ON A PLANET IN THE MIDDLE OF SPACE,AND LEAVE THEM TO THEIR OWN DEVICES.if you want to prove the intrinsic worth of a mortal human species,leave them on their own.i say that there :razz: :heartpump: is enough love evident here on earth,and enough personalities that have been willfully molded in accordance with the idea of love,that, to myself at least,the soul and immortality is somehow self evident.

but like i said at the beginning, I REALLY DONT KNOW  :loveeyes:


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either/or,and/or,both/and?


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Offlinexasino
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: xasino]
    #2299424 - 02/04/04 10:18 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

(playingdevilsadvocateheAr)-and think about it.....if death is just the cessation of self-consciousness and being itself,then the only bad part is the pain which immediately precedes it----a big anti climax.
the poor folks who jumped out of the twin towers-what if,after they jumped, some of them reflected on all the good things they'd ever experienced in their lives,instead of focusing on the fright of plunging towards certain death? the millisecond any of them-you/me hit the ground-theres no time for self reflection,or to experience bodily pain-youre human body is dead-


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either/or,and/or,both/and?


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OfflineVulture
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: xasino]
    #2299513 - 02/04/04 11:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

stuff you should read

tibetan book of the dead
god speaks - meher baba (its about the evolution of consiousness and the state of god before creation and all that jazz) < hard to wrap your head around but i felt like i was high as hell and getting higher with the reading of every sentance in that book.


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Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2299522 - 02/04/04 11:33 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

when we die, we rot.

in terms of saying that body & soul(mind) are 2 seperate things, the powers of sensation or perception and thought, as belonging to man, have never been found but in conjunction with a certain organized system of matter; and therefore, that those powers necessarily exist in, and depend upon, such a system.

Nothing but a precise and definite knowledge of the nature of perception and thought can authorize any person to affirm whether they may not belong to an extended substance which has also the properties of attraction and repulsion (since our material world operates on those bases)

We ought to conclude that the whole man is material unless it should appear that he has some powers or properties that are absolutely incompatible with matter.

A little Joseph Priestly...

The burden of proof rests on the believers that we are simply more than a biologic being.


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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Offlinelostsuitcase
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kremlin]
    #2299568 - 02/04/04 12:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

nothing happens when you die, you become non-existant, your energy and matter get broken down into the soil and become different things through time, you mind....which is all that makes "you" ceases to exist.

or maybe it becomes its own self-contained universe.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2299771 - 02/04/04 03:50 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

when asked "what happens to the arhat upon death?'
the buddha maintained a noble silence...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Offlinebaraka
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: lostsuitcase]
    #2300243 - 02/04/04 07:47 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


nothing happens when you die, you become non-existant, your energy and matter get broken down into the soil and become different things through time, you mind....which is all that makes "you" ceases to exist.




After many trips i came to basically that conclusion which sadened me for a while.


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This is the only time I really feel alive.


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Anonymous

Re: What happens when you die? [Re: baraka]
    #2300264 - 02/04/04 07:51 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

After many trips i came to basically that conclusion...

same here... except to me, this was liberating.


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Anonymous

Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2300331 - 02/04/04 08:08 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

for those of us that have had these experiences, know this is as simple as it gets, religion is mass confusion.  www.near-death.com and www.iands.org have a look.  :thumbup:

and for those of you that shroomed and felt like there is no purpose, you didnt let go of your egos, that is the whole point in shrooming!!(this is just my opinion...of course :wink: )

havent you taken 5g or a quarter and left your body?  read level 5 description... MERGING WITH SPACE; satori enlightenment,  :grin: too fucking cool, dont be scarrrrred  :shocked:  :tongue:


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OfflineSpokesman
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2301293 - 02/04/04 11:41 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

What happens when you die?




The same thing that happened before you were born....


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Offlined33p
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Spokesman]
    #2301794 - 02/05/04 01:51 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Wow that is really a great answer. I'll have to use that one next time someone asks that.

And yes i agree that there is an infinite nothingness but of course you cant experience it so its hard to describe.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2301795 - 02/05/04 01:51 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What's keeping you from finding out yourself? :evil:




jk. Seriously, dude put the knife down. Damnit.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineInfinity
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2302248 - 02/05/04 03:57 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In order to answer this question one has to consider what one's identity is right now, as one is alive. I'm currently under the impression that we are not the physical body, the name we give ourselves, our ego, or what we "think" we are. Instead our true identity might be that singularity in time, the infinite NOW, that is everywhere/everything/everyone. It is indestructible. I mean I very well could be wrong about this, but to me it kind of makes sense.

One also has to take into the account the possibility that "the past" is infinite. In other words, the possibility that there was no beginning to our "experience." If it is true that there was no beginning, then all of us, and every other living thing is basically "unborn"... Sure we had a birth in the conventional sense, but the series of "events" leading up to our birth can, conceivably, go all the way back... So if we are unborn, then how can we really die? If we are unborn, then we both 1)can't really exist and 2)never really die. I don't know though, I definitely could be wrong about this.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Spokesman]
    #2302253 - 02/05/04 03:58 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Spokesman said:
Quote:

What happens when you die?




The same thing that happened before you were born....




Except backwards...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2302284 - 02/05/04 04:07 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Not sure what happens after you die, but hours before you die you find out that you just won the state lottery...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Swami]
    #2302287 - 02/05/04 04:09 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

as per murphy's law of physical incarnation


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2302363 - 02/05/04 04:26 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Quote:

Spokesman said:
Quote:

What happens when you die?




The same thing that happened before you were born....




Except backwards...




GROSS! There's no fucking way I'm going back inside my mom.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2302492 - 02/05/04 05:00 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

No one Knows for sure...all the time...but many people do experience a momentary grace called 'Assurance.' This is a term used in Christian theology to describe an experience of certainty about one's faith. To have faith is to believe, 'just because,' or as the book BE HERE NOW says:

"You trust the fact that there are Realized Beings...And they said it & therefore you know it to be true...It's not inference any more...It's not an intellectual process...You just accept what they have said...THAT'S FAITH. See: We've gotten so super-sophisticated in our evaluative mechanisms that you question everything you hear. How do you know you're not being hustled? I mean: What was Jesus up to? What's the game man? What's he into?"

BE HERE NOW says further on:

"What you may not understand is: The whole game you have been playing is also based on faith. You have had faith in the rational mind. We are living in a society which is a temple to the rational mind & its products... We still worship our own sense data. It's only when we see the assumptions that we've already been functioning on that we can start to extricate ourselves...You don't seem to understand You Are In Prison. If you are to get out of prison the first thing you must realize is: You Are In Prison. If you think you're free you can't escape."

Now, this take on faith is Also a Gnostic take. It is the same Gnostic take that the writers of 'The Matrix' based their story on. Over the doorway in The Oracle's kitchen was a sign that read 'Temet Gnoses,' which is a Latin version of 'Know Thyself,' or 'Know Self-Control' in the sense of Knowing [Gnosis] how to control one's perception of Reality - including the Reality of one's true Self. The rational mind and the sense data is not the mode of apprehending the Truth. Faith is an 'organ of perception' but it is a Psychospiritual organ, not a physical organ. We all have the capability of employing it, but few know how to trust it so most people struggle on with same old psychophysical equipment. It is like spinning one's tires in the snow, which just digs one into being even more stuck. A completely different strategy could free one, but people are stubborn and stupid about it.

Yoda levitates the space craft from the swamp, and Luke Skywalker exclaims "I don't believe it!," to which Yoda replies without hesitation: ''That is why you fail." We've got the 'Red Pill' in common at the Shroomery, but it is not sufficient by itself.
The 'Red Pill' must be used in conjunction with faith, or one's trip will never leave the psychophysical sphere for the Psychospiritual sphere of Reality that transcends it, and which supplies answers in the form of Assurance. Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2302513 - 02/05/04 05:07 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Yoda levitates the space craft from the swamp, and Luke Skywalker exclaims "I don't believe it!," to which Yoda replies without hesitation: ''That is why you fail."

That is a cute quote, but how far do you take it? Did people die when jumping out of the 911 towers, merely because they just didn't believe in levitation or because gravity and the frailty of human flesh are inalterable facts?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Swami]
    #2302529 - 02/05/04 05:11 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Interesting, faith 'can move mountains' but it can't provide a soft landing for a falling body...


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Evolving]
    #2302534 - 02/05/04 05:12 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Taking the phrase "faith can move mountains" too literally is probably not a good thing :wink:


What it probably is intended to mean is that when you put your mind to it, you can accomplish just about anything (within reason, I'm not talking about breaking the laws of physics or anything) :smirk:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2302646 - 02/05/04 05:45 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I can imagine comming into divine union with "the truth", she is bright and loving, she draws us in until we come into divine union. It is a moment of enlightenment. Then a force expells us from the expierience and we begin somewhere else. Maybe bad karma forces us out, if we were to carry it into the expierence. Perhaops we could remain forever if we were pure.

I keep remembering bits when im stoned. Or is it all imagination? Anyone else "remember"? It's like a memory from outside of time.


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Swami]
    #2302656 - 02/05/04 05:48 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You miss the point. The modern myth of Star Wars uses the same style as the ancient myths - midrash - colorful, supernatural illustrations of impossible physical events to highlight living, yet invisible, inner spiritual realities. Levitation (e.g., walking on water, Ascension into [1st century concept of] Heaven) in Biblical myth is midrash - colorful stories intended to highlight the spiritual significance of Jesus. The empty-tomb narratives of the Gospels - midrash to illustrate a Spiritual Mystery - yet depicted. I do believe in a Resurrection of the "inner man'' to Eternal Life, but I do not expect a reanimation of my physical corpus. Neither did St. Paul who differentiated between the "natural man" and the "inner" or "spiritual man." I do not believe that the Resurrection will 'look like' anything. It will not be a physically observable event like the midrashic illustrations of the Bible 'describe.' To take midrash as literal, observable, physical-historical event is a heresy - it is Fundamentalism - it is "spiritual materialism" (to use the Buddhist Chogyam Trungpa's term). This is why I speak of faith and gnosis, not reason and senses when apprehending Mysteries of faith. I have no 'idea' or 'image' of what Resurrection is - but I believe in Eternal Life as a definite possibility. Sometimes I 'Know' for sure.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: trendal]
    #2302698 - 02/05/04 06:05 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Or, how about this interpretation: by the time that one is 'given' the faith to move mountains...one has Realized GOD is the ONE who put the mountain there in the first place. There the mountain remains, but one has now ceased to think of oneself as a human ego with grandiose desires...one has Realized one's spiritual Center wherein GOD resides. One's petty desire evaporates in the Face of Reality.
It's about a radical shift in perspective - from the personal to the Transpersonal - from ego to Self - from man's to GOD's.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2302775 - 02/05/04 06:31 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

hehe, i like that, "It's about a radical shift in perspective"


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2302782 - 02/05/04 06:33 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

you just came up with that one didn't ya :wink:


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get it all together get like birds of a feather


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #2302971 - 02/05/04 07:36 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Nope. Can't take credit for something Ram Dass said in the 70's. The Bible contains Truth - it's just that the Truth is not necessarily what our childish, materialistic minds expect Truth to be.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2302993 - 02/05/04 07:43 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Bible contains Truth - it's just that the Truth is not necessarily what our childish, materialistic minds expect Truth to be.




I think the truth should be intuitive...


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2303013 - 02/05/04 07:48 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

and if two people who read the same book reach two completely different truths?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2303091 - 02/05/04 08:09 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Then they go to war and the one with the "best" interpretation (or most vicious one) wins.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2303101 - 02/05/04 08:13 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Truth is, two dogs fighting over a bone have more sense than two people fighting over an interpretation of the bible.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineSuperLazy
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2303739 - 02/05/04 12:07 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You return to the stars


--------------------
" Don't ration your compassion " - unknown


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #2303834 - 02/05/04 02:29 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

student: sensei, what happens when we die?
master: i don't know.
student: but, you're a zen master! you must know.
master: yes, i am a zen master - but not a dead one!


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2303849 - 02/05/04 02:49 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Truth, which is equivalent to Reality or what is Truly Real, Ultimately Real, is the same as GOD, which is ONE. If the words are impressed with Truth to a "superabundant" degree (Mircea Eliade), then the words can be considered to be Holy, and should exert an influence on the reader. Words of peace, forgiveness, faith, compassion, forgiveness - as a WAY of being are difficult to misinterpret. Other kinds of sayings are certainly open to different interpretations, but I surely would not go to war over the doctrinal difference of whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son, or whether it proceeds from the Father and the Son, yet this arguement - The Filioque - caused war and a division between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. I don't care! I can see both arguments based on Holy Scripture. It's an intellectual argument that men died for! Does the outcome effect one's relationship with GOD or with one's fellow humans?! NO. Most people miss the forest for the trees - can't discern the wheat from the chaff. St. Paul's comment about it being shameful for a man to wear his hair long (he had the attitude of every balding man I've encountered when my hair was long since 1966!) does not embody the same spiritual gravity as "Thou shalt not commit murder." But - the frequent translation of that commandment into "Thou shalt not kill," might prevent the mis-interpreter to allow a madman to attack a child if killing him is the only possible means of stopping him. This is why Wisdom is the thing to ask for and develop, and why the 'love of Wisdom' - philosophy - is so important.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSpectacle
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #27706416 - 03/24/22 10:47 AM (10 months, 5 hours ago)

Your next life will be a summation of this one.
Be careful what screens you look at.
Turning the other cheek is over rated.
Take the wrong turn and get locked in the labyrinth (:


--------------------
124


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Spectacle]
    #27707168 - 03/25/22 01:19 AM (9 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Spectacle said:
Your next life will be a summation of this one.
Be careful what screens you look at.
Turning the other cheek is over rated.
Take the wrong turn and get locked in the labyrinth (:




I figure "as above, so below" can indicate many choices of destinations, much like competing internet forums. Popularity then influences your choice.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Spectacle]
    #27707768 - 03/25/22 02:06 PM (9 months, 30 days ago)

we will all become crab


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: sudly]
    #27707838 - 03/25/22 05:10 PM (9 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
we will all become crab





Bottom feeders, I knew it.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #27708094 - 03/25/22 09:31 PM (9 months, 29 days ago)

some get crabby before they die


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Offlinedamp33
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27709305 - 03/26/22 07:14 PM (9 months, 28 days ago)

:mushroom2:


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: damp33]
    #27709327 - 03/26/22 07:23 PM (9 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

damp33 said:
:mushroom2:




May your 666th post be as good as your 66th


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #27709557 - 03/26/22 11:23 PM (9 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

John said:
???

Just wondering what some of you guys think, sorry if there have been a million of these threads already, but if there has, well peoples precptions change all the time. maybe some of you have a diffrent idea than you had last time you anwsered the question. thanks for any replies :stoned:

oh yeah you don't have to get into every detail I know sometimes peoples beliefs are hard to express through writing and what not and sometimes just go on a understanding or gut feeling you have, just a general idea of what you think :sun:




.  The logical answer, from those who have tripped, good acid, deep enough, to not be infatuated with the idea of "ego death", is that the notion of a stable, autonomous, permanent, self has always been a fiction.
.  This is confirmed by the dying in hospice, who over come the fear of death, during tripping.

.  This is also discussed by Alan Watts, in more detail, in at least one of his books, after his experiences with tripping. He uses the analogy of a light bulb flickering (due to alternating current) too fast for us to notice; as similar to the nature of what we ordinarily take to be a stable or 'solid' self.

.  Near death experiences, vary according to the culture they occur in; so although interesting they would seem to perhaps fall into the same category, as 'machine elves', and astral travel, etc. and not be a reliable data source.
.  Whereas when the dying over come the fear of death, during tripping, and remain calmer thereafter, it is perhaps much more impressive.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27709689 - 03/27/22 01:49 AM (9 months, 28 days ago)

the last fuse is blown


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OfflineDaydreamIJ
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27717609 - 04/02/22 05:15 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

No one can say for certain…
My personal belief is that we are eternal beings, created by a higher power. We are fallen from our former state of being, for one reason or another. This is the lowest plane of existence. When we die, we either come back to earth or ascend to other dimensions and places. I tried to get on board with the “we are all one” theory but I could never make it past the evidence we have in the natural world. Individuality is such a beautiful thing. We are all the same, but we are all indivudals.

You have some evidence for your question in the natural world, also. Why is it that death is so unsettling and terrifying for us? It’s because it’s not real and we were never meant to actually die.

When a sperm meets the egg, there is a literal flash of light. Sonoluminescence comes to mind. Frequencies enter into time and space, but if there is no time in the place we were before, we wouldn’t remember anything until we went back. We are the walking dead it seems.

I refuse to believe that this world is the end all of existence.
Why would anything exist at all?

I’ve been all over the place spiritually in my life, and was an atheist for a long time. My views have changed, this place definitely had a designer and I think we may have even witnessed it all happen. I don’t know for sure what happens… but I know it has to be better than this- working slave hours for paper, destroying the beautiful earth, throwing our kids into a mental prison so we can make sure everybody eats, oh and governments and banks, etc. This is hell. It gets better.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: DaydreamIJ]
    #27717708 - 04/02/22 07:12 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

I refuse to believe that this world is the end all of existence.
Why would anything exist at all?


What do you mean by this?

I think I understand that by the "end all of existence" you are referring back to the idea that you see Earth as the lowest plane and that you can imagine other planes. But if that's the line of thinking, I get lost on the next part. What do you mean?

Are you suggesting that there must be a reason for existence, otherwise, why would anything exist at all?

Does everything that has happened to you feel meaningful? Including this post from me? Including any prior post you've read? Just curious on where your boundaries are if anywhere.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: DaydreamIJ]
    #27717720 - 04/02/22 07:20 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

Speaking of paradox, imo, there is nothing more sovereign, individualistic, than spirit nature, yet it is all one, like light. It doesn't have to be thought as such per se, yet self-realizes in seeing others as that, holy, if you will, free. The freedom nature is of one essence.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27717738 - 04/02/22 07:30 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

she's got a deal with the designer now.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27717795 - 04/02/22 08:14 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

:mib:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinepsilocybinmansions
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27718846 - 04/03/22 08:33 AM (9 months, 21 days ago)

You just shrink into the mind and realise you were dreaming on that level, now you're dreaming on this level, and the room is markedly rearranged, or wherever you leave yourself...

There's nothing significant about dying in a cosmic sense. Maybe your non-spiritual, unenlightened family will suffer "loss" due to a misunderstanding.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: psilocybinmansions]
    #27718991 - 04/03/22 01:59 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

anyone ever been in a coma before?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisiblehTx
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27719024 - 04/03/22 03:46 PM (9 months, 21 days ago)

There's this theory called 'Quantum Immortality'. It states that consciousness facing a life or death event, will always follow the reality where it is alive.
Each person is living in there own bubble universe where they cannot die...
some of my own near-death experiences has led me to consider it..
it's kind of terrifying to think about.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Offlinepsilocybinmansions
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: hTx] * 2
    #27719090 - 04/03/22 05:07 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Comas are only slightly different from full normal waking consciousness. It's kind of preposterous but it's true. You can't do maths or science, but it's effectively the same, with a slight sense of being stuck but not being sure you're stuck. Consciousness is eternal and untouchable, but cognition is completely fuckable. From experience!


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: hTx]
    #27719197 - 04/03/22 07:05 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
There's this theory called 'Quantum Immortality'. It states that consciousness facing a life or death event, will always follow the reality where it is alive.
Each person is living in there own bubble universe where they cannot die...
some of my own near-death experiences has led me to consider it..
it's kind of terrifying to think about.




Can you draw a distinction between quantum immortality and quantum suicide?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: psilocybinmansions]
    #27719203 - 04/03/22 07:10 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

psilocybinmansions said:
Comas are only slightly different from full normal waking consciousness. It's kind of preposterous but it's true. You can't do maths or science, but it's effectively the same, with a slight sense of being stuck but not being sure you're stuck. Consciousness is eternal and untouchable, but cognition is completely fuckable. From experience!




:batlol:


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinelightinsideoflight
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: sudly]
    #27720012 - 04/04/22 05:14 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

you are half invisible. you have a spirit body. its psionic. some spirits fall to the core of the earth. hell is a verifiable location hidden in the earth. the sun is habitable. there are lots of oobe dream body magics, light body, soul, ego, mind, ghoulish, ashes, tree hosts, make sure you are cremated instead of buried. when you die will you rise or will you fall, or will you wander the earth? god has such amazing powers. the suns core is 75 degrees and liquid ecstasy. a summer breeze for giants. and sprites/cortex fairies. cash rules everything around me, cream get the money dollar dollar bill yo. have you ever done cathinones/phenylthyalamines/methamphetamine? what about morphinan? newports cigarettes? all three at once and a beer the next day during the opiate afterglow? i like anal heterosexual marriage sex, and cunnilingus. i AM nothair racist. thats how i want to die. licking pussy and butt sex raw with a pretty young fat pussied giant turkish girl. forever until we ignite as one and shoot across the aeons to return to the center sun, adam, to orbit as enders game pilots in cocoon black flame dream ships infinity feet in depth adelphic . birdmanc in the house. 11 birdmen in a perfect circle the army of the twelve monkeys. with or without you. stay high. one love. c.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #27720039 - 04/04/22 05:31 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

John said:
???

Just wondering what some of you guys think, ... just go on a understanding or gut feeling you have, just a general idea of what you think ...





It's like Las Vegas;

What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: lightinsideoflight]
    #27720088 - 04/04/22 06:08 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

I think this is a decent representation of your verbal comments.


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Invisiblekreg
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: sudly]
    #27720124 - 04/04/22 06:34 AM (9 months, 20 days ago)

Electricity and light move faster than everything else--- we're always living the consequences of our actions. I read reports of suicide survivors gunshot directly to the brain "my heart isn't beating ... my brain is gone... i'm still here.. .oh god" you tell me mother fucker


did god create himself just to look at his reflection


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: kreg]
    #27720441 - 04/04/22 02:26 PM (9 months, 20 days ago)

hell of a thing to have to live with a brain all shot up, but I would like to study the paths of those bullets.

I'm guessing it mostly just went through some cortex and left the thalamus and at least one side of hippocampus and amygdala intact, spraying few skull fragments - leave that body to science would ya?!!


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27720599 - 04/04/22 06:17 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I wish, RGV. I saw one where this guys top half of his head was completely gone, no brain there, just a jaw and a tongue. He was strapped to a hospital bed moving around reaching upwards.. not like nerves kicking, like sentiently reaching up as if his brain was still there


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: kreg]
    #27720612 - 04/04/22 06:37 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

My point being I think it's safe to assume that even when every particle in your body has been ripped apart and no longer exists, like even if you died in a nuclear explosion: the light and electricity in your brain will remain for just a wee moment after "you" are physically non existent.
            Do you feel your thoughts? Light and electricity passing through your brain, whats the speed of light again I forgot


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: kreg]
    #27720622 - 04/04/22 06:47 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Yes, it could well be that there is an experience between disintegration and reintegration. But it's hard to say in any meaningful way what that would be as none of the same perceptual channels would exist.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: kreg]
    #27720629 - 04/04/22 07:02 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

kreg said:
My point being I think it's safe to assume that even when every particle in your body has been ripped apart and no longer exists, like even if you died in a nuclear explosion: the light and electricity in your brain will remain for just a wee moment after "you" are physically non existent.
            Do you feel your thoughts? Light and electricity passing through your brain, whats the speed of light again I forgot



speed of light, c'mon 186Kmiles per second, everyone knows that right (8 minutes from the sun).

otherwise, yes you can feel your thoughts if you are not blocking that off.
without a thalamus there is nothing to power a perceptive reflex, so if that central part of the brain is gone, even if you still have residual electric fields in the cortex there is no possible awareness of their relation to anything, no sense of self or thing of any kind flickering. I doubt that the last 1/4 second glow would qualify as any form of spiritual experience. life is finite-finished.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27720643 - 04/04/22 07:15 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

sigh yeah and DMT trips being the infinite visual complexity feeling like forever all under 10 minutes that doesn't happen to anyone, doesnt exist. Fiction that I just made up, yep.

* time doesn't care about your perception of it. Rocks and sand "inanimate" things they "cant" perceive time yet here they are with us, inside of time. You are clinging on to the egos definition of life/reality/the universe and well like duh you have nothing else to cling on to none of us do
            that's what i've been trying to say is that this is it there is no "other side" or other universes and even if there was  its connected to this one theyre the same thing. Everything is a part of something inside of something even in multiverse theory all those different universes are within one whole "multiverse".  You want to talk about brain activity and our perception as if its the container of the universe as if the brain is GOd or something, the universe will keep existing even if you remove your own head 100%, your body will still exist, the cells within you will still be alive until the decompose and die with you.

I don't have a more clear cut citation for you because hello there isn't one, we're in the territory of asking to define what the afterlife is absolutely no one can give a concrete answer to that so please Christ don't ask me too either thanks


Edited by kreg (04/04/22 07:38 PM)


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: kreg]
    #27720656 - 04/04/22 07:22 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Just because we can't understand it doesn't mean it isn't happening, it won't go away or get better or worse even if you do understand it. There is no bargaining with the universe on this one-
            Your life, everyones life- the universe is going to do it with or without you. "Like it or not"  there is no looking at it differently or no looking at it at all. This is it, we are all here right now life and death are the same thing


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: kreg]
    #27720660 - 04/04/22 07:26 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Huh? I think the argument is that no one knows what's going on. But all signs point to everything that contributes to the sense of "me" is well and gone. Most of our fears and comforts stem from this identity (me) experiencing something one way or another.

DMT takes chemical reaction. Unfortunately that is quite a bit slower than light.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27720665 - 04/04/22 07:31 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I apologize for your confusion.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: kreg]
    #27720667 - 04/04/22 07:32 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Well help clear it up? I'm a good listener.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27720680 - 04/04/22 07:43 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I feel like no matter what I say you're just going to pick it apart and say "well that isn't right".      Is this universe right? Do you think the universe cares whether you think it's right or wrong? Whatever you want to call this ultimate experience we are all in there is no changing it, no going outside of it, no going to a new one, no "after universe"---- I'm not saying "nothing happens when you die" I'm saying whatever the fuck happens it's the exact same shit that is happening right now that we define as life being conscience, sentience, ego, "having a soul"  whatever you want to call it. Every universe in a multiverse is still contained within that "multiverse"
                      Being dead isn't going to escape anything


Edited by kreg (04/04/22 07:45 PM)


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: kreg]
    #27720684 - 04/04/22 07:47 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Ok. This is my truth for you: I care about what you say. I think it's valid and important. I also don't think your personal views represent absolute truth, nor do I think my views represent absolute truth. And the best that I can do in a discussion such as this is to rely on what is mutually observable for both of us. Because beyond that, there is no discussion.

So yes, I will rely on what can be mutually shared as opposed to one sided. Not that this means a one-sided view isn't valid or important. It just isn't a discussion. It's solipsism.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27720687 - 04/04/22 07:52 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Haha you're calling me a solipsist for trying my best to reply to you? Ok thanks thats very respectful of you


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: kreg]
    #27720688 - 04/04/22 07:53 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

No. I'm saying that relying on only one view to determine ultimate reality is solipsism.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27720693 - 04/04/22 07:57 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

That's not what I said, thanks.    Let me try this again :

take all the world views, I won't list them, just list them in your head I don't care. Just because the things in these views have different names doesn't mean they are different things...


cats right? Imagine a cat...... Imagine all the different words for a cat all the different "views" on what a cat is.... no matter what you call it no matter what you believe ultimately it's still a cat - or whatever the hell you choose to call the cat most

please address your confusion more specifically so I can clarify more specifically thank you


Edited by kreg (04/04/22 07:59 PM)


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: kreg]
    #27720698 - 04/04/22 08:00 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I understand that what we are experiencing has a potential to be infinite. I also understand that what we are experiencing has a potential to be finite. I also understand that one can find evidence for both.

My confusion lies in this: why should I give weight to either as important?


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27720701 - 04/04/22 08:06 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

So?  Even if you choose to ignore it and believe that neither is important "it's still there"  whatever it is.

the mathematical concepts of finite and infinity still exist within the same realm even when the infinite is plotted. I'm no mathematician but I think calculus and trig go into those types of numbers


Edited by kreg (04/04/22 08:09 PM)


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: kreg]
    #27720703 - 04/04/22 08:07 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Yeah my stance is that I do not know, and can not know. The things that I can discuss are the things that are mutually shared experiences. I see the rest as largely assumptions for my mental health if anything.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27720706 - 04/04/22 08:10 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

...yeah that's everyone. I think that's why they call religions "belief systems" and "faiths"

that includes existentialism too, all belief systems all religions, all of them. All of these animals are in the same zoo.


Edited by kreg (04/04/22 08:11 PM)


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: kreg]
    #27720709 - 04/04/22 08:12 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Yes, and to use faith or belief as a discussion point is not useful for mutually shared experience. It's a personal one. A personal coping mechanism. Even if it becomes shared by some or even a majority, it will not be a universal truth because it seems the underlying shared experience is that we cannot know.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27720724 - 04/04/22 08:31 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I don't know that I buy that we can't know and no one knows who can tell about it, but it is also easy to say.

Can we experience in meditative or other states what it is like after death? In that like astral travel? From some points of view, these are given to see exactly that. What does self-realization imply?

That which is neti neti, not this.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: syncro]
    #27720726 - 04/04/22 08:32 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Well if you have evidence or a way for it to be mutually shared I'm all ears and have been for a long time.

I think in all seriousness that not knowing isn't a bad thing but rather a good thing. Mystery is often a source of good. It's open, explorative, welcoming and childlike. While knowledge tends to be harmful and the reverse.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: syncro]
    #27720741 - 04/04/22 08:42 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

As we hear and know, this kind of incarnation is middling and of suffering. Apart from bodily consciousness things can tend to be very different, free, unhindered, beautiful, expanded, certain.

But it is easy to say "apart from bodily consciousness" when my body still lives and may just be making happy stuff in the physiology.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: syncro]
    #27720745 - 04/04/22 08:43 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Well I would contend that the only thing keeping one from being free, unhindered, and expanded when it comes to dying, is certainty. And the thing that causes us to cling to certainty is fear.

For the record, I am fearful. I often go through the sensation of dying, whether real or simulated doesn't matter because it feels quite real. And the response is definitely one of fear at a certain point - a thought about a loved one, a physiological response, a sense of incompleteness, etc. This is my practice.   


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27720753 - 04/04/22 08:52 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I mean certainty in experience of that freedom, knowing what is true about our nature, like certainty of love. I think I see what you mean though, as in false expectation.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: syncro]
    #27720762 - 04/04/22 08:56 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Ah, yeah, I see. Good stuff :thumbup:

There are always exceptions. But even then I think a lose grip is best :lol:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: syncro]
    #27720804 - 04/04/22 09:24 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

certainty is illusion
familiarity is the best we get.

I am not familiar with anything suggestive of life after death, and of that I am certain.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27720823 - 04/04/22 09:37 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I have death anxeity and find it expressed for my own life and for those I care about. And yet I suppose there is nothing after death. Basic postulations are that the "soul" or "spirit" is the output of material existence, a process with expression based on the material thing rather than the material thing itself. There could be a more nuanced consideration but when the material thing ends the process ends.

Whether this is ultimately reasonable I don't know. It's just what makes sense to me. I suppose there's a difference between a near death experience and a death experience. I don't believe in ghosts or demons except the ones in our minds. There's no anecdotal evidence that sways me heavily enough to think there's a good chance I'm wrong.

I tend to see reincarnation as a cyclic process, either through transference of perception via one living being to another, changes/non-changes apparent through the various cycles of living, or the manifestation of similar beings through procreation.

The idea that my personality goes on after death seems fear based/egoic.

Pretty basic stuff I suppose. Materialistic pov in some people's opinion I guess but there is plenty of room for spirituality within those parameters.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Rahz]
    #27720829 - 04/04/22 09:41 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Well I've weighed much of that too. I also think that energetic expression in the context of the universe is quite mysterious. A best case look for me reveals causes/conditions resulting in outcomes. How did causes/conditions start? If there is a primary cause, how can that be? Will causes/conditions end? Are there cosmic patterns I'm utterly unaware of? Are there energetic phenomena we haven't even begun to explore? Why can I experience some of the energetic expressions that I have? I can't explain them.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27720836 - 04/04/22 09:54 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Consciousness can picture its end, sort of(?), but it's there doing it.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #27720854 - 04/04/22 10:16 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Yogic teachers talk about the presence of consciousness never leaving. This would be obvious with waking and dream states. But they also argue that consciousness is present in deep sleep - what is lacking is memory. Yet meditations can become quite akin to deep sleep I think, while awake. That constant wakefulness through the states of waking, dreaming, and sleeping is called turiya, and the implication I think would be that if it is beyond the waking state, it is beyond the body and its death..

Just sharing the concept. Only our experience can verify, and that still cannot verify it for others, and as well we may be mistaken.

It's hard to believe, for me, in the profound extent of energy and experience in the spiritual works throughout the ages that it is mistaken.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: syncro]
    #27720856 - 04/04/22 10:19 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

That what exactly could be mistaken? That there is something beyond physical life/death?


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27720862 - 04/04/22 10:23 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I took a blue star e pill, and some blue adderall. I was infinity feet tall with galaxies all around me. A blue african man was there, and an invisible presence. Like the blue african man was trying to compete with the invisible presence above his head. I think death is psychedelics. Like, death is becoming god. Transmutation of the flesh into diamond light, supreme magic. I have been inside the sun too, etcetera.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #27720873 - 04/04/22 10:29 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Yes, mistaken about immortality of being as it were.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: syncro]
    #27720900 - 04/04/22 10:48 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I mean I can conceive of consciousness without usable energy. It conceptually appears like empty space to me. And yes, I can imagine that existence like a deep sleep. Or maybe like the release of no longer usable energy.

I actually do think my deep sleep is a release of no longer usable energy. And if I don't get deep sleep, it leads to much more fatigue as that spent energy doesn't get that release. And yes, a deep meditation similarly.

So yeah, I cherish deep sleep. And it's a possibility. But I don't share any certainty about it. A great many narratives can be conceived of that fit with what we see.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #27720909 - 04/04/22 10:56 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

When you die, there's nothing after death. It's just your addiction-wired brain that makes you fear losing all those things you enjoy/are addicted to, that's why shrooms help people stop fearing death because shrooms and psychedelics and weed stop addiction.

What's after death is the same thing that was before, except you won't get born again. It's now even less believable that there's life after death because of the fact that people are letting the Earth die.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27720910 - 04/04/22 10:56 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I am not great in discipline, but I'll say it for the teacher hitting us with a stick, practice!

The samadhis and bhavs and all that, if anything does, bring certainty.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: syncro]
    #27720928 - 04/04/22 11:07 PM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I sense you see this as confirmation but IMO being misled by our thoughts is a danger we all face. Not knowing is a fast way to allow reality to be as it is.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisiblekreg
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: syncro]
    #27720995 - 04/05/22 12:03 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Consciousness can picture its end, sort of(?), but it's there doing it.



but did the universe (and us in it) create itself?
Quote:

Yogic teachers talk about the presence of consciousness never leaving. 



i assume information from our conscience life being stored in the particles all the way in our bones for as long as they exist 💀


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:shineon: Do what thou wilt x Love is the law, love under will. :shineon:

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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: kreg]
    #27721036 - 04/05/22 12:40 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

there is no personal information in our particles

what we are experiencing in sensation and perception are neuron activations (which become linked into associations),
and associated neuron activations (previously linked during experiences).

the linkages require living white matter, known as axons.

you can use schemes of information to describe all that but it is not information in situ, we are not information. we are not data. even if you remember a string of numbers, it is sequence memory at play, not data recording.

and when we are dust, we are not functional as we any longer.

but for now the sky is the limit and I would like my flying car already


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27721043 - 04/05/22 12:44 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I sense you see this as confirmation but IMO being misled by our thoughts is a danger we all face. Not knowing is a fast way to allow reality to be as it is.




I agree that it should be experienced and not presumed, and that I know is not sufficient in language. But yes the unassuming witness, no doubt. The states are not thoughts though, more like energy, and void, as I think you know. Presumptions around them though, are that, as we presume there is a sky that appears blue, and that there is gravity. Those are pretty certain because of the comprehensiveness and continuity of the experience, yet those qualities come about in altered states.

If you are in an OBE, yet perception tends to be as comprehensive as in the bodily waking state, certainty can become competitive.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: kreg]
    #27721076 - 04/05/22 01:12 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

kreg said:
Quote:

syncro said:
Consciousness can picture its end, sort of(?), but it's there doing it.



but did the universe (and us in it) create itself?





I can only say what the big man says. How does it go, the void receptacle of mind is the creator, manifesting as thought moves within it. Trying to paraphrase Vasistha, yogic advaita.

In theory it can be verified as central to the teaching is that the world appearance ceases with movement of thought. Then cease movement of thought, attain proficiency in it.

I don't think this means like becoming a rock or a corpse, then not seeing the world as senses are dead, but that the nature of creation is seen through in its scale, riding the blue man's flying car in purified consciousness.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: syncro]
    #27721088 - 04/05/22 01:20 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Hmm, I think you've somewhat highlighted a few things that I see as reasons for doubt.

Repeatable phenomena can feel very certain, until they aren't. And by that I am referring to impermanence. I can both experience the color of the sky and also recognize that it is transitory. Not just in the momentary changes, but also in regards to my human lifetime and then again on a cosmic scale. It seems to me that causes and conditions are not permanent.

So yes, I can lean on repeatability for support in taking my next steps. But I also really value being able to assess the merit of leaning on experience through a lens of impermanence.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27721099 - 04/05/22 01:32 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Agreed on impermanence. I guess that is all that's needed.

Saying though, if you perceive your body as light, for example, more or more profoundly than perceiving your body as flesh, you may tend to say you are light.


Edited by syncro (04/12/22 03:11 AM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: syncro]
    #27721110 - 04/05/22 01:46 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

I guess? Beats me.

If I was experiencing myself as formless light, I'd blast off and explore somewhere else. No reason to stick around here just to watch the form die.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27721182 - 04/05/22 02:25 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

as for the origin of the universe, I am partly following physics, but they do not claim to have it all straight yet, so I am behind in that as well, but it did happen a long time back leaving footprints in the sky so to speak, light-speed wise.

yes we will all die. and many of those who remain will wonder if it was good or bad or whatever. I do not think it will matter to us, and then it will happen to them, and so on.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27721195 - 04/05/22 02:37 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Well something that hasn't happened yet in the natural history of Earth is a mass extinction of humans. And there is no reason that it cannot.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27721237 - 04/05/22 03:12 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

The universe seems to exist as a simulation or simulacrum. Formally the universe doesn't exist without a mind. It's like we're latched onto some kind of illusion before our eyes through consciousness. If you evolve a little, you will find you can switch the thing all over the place until you're not really sure the "external" is there at all, but the fact it is there, is baffling... Then the thing sort of knows you're onto it, so it starts to confuse you, to test you.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: psilocybinmansions]
    #27721239 - 04/05/22 03:20 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

Sounds like a manipulative relationship. Or maybe it's sexy like a tease.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27721309 - 04/05/22 04:19 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

There are various viewpoints that can make sense, states of mind to experience. To think this perception is not the true reality one will usually have idea of what true reality may be, or categorize it in the unknown. The "truth" is always teasing our brains.

But it is reasonable that certain perceptions aren't ultimate truths. The perception of solid for instance. Some science advocates suggest atoms are mostly empty space. This may be true but something about their structure and physics prevents them from passing through one another like stars in a colliding galaxy. Solid is a very useful word. The definition gets revised away from "void of empty space" into something with the same perception and utility but a changed mental abstraction of what's going on.

Some theories suggest there's ultimately no such thing as space. Material reality is a set of energetic relationships in which the relationships themselves define form and quality. This can be seen in a mathematical universe, program on a computer, ghost, demons, angels; non-incorporeal form, manifesting location without travel.

But despite all that, there's something "real" about the material world that's fairly undeniable. There's an entirely different train of thought that leads to understanding of form and potential perhaps with presumptions about the underlying nature of reality. I guess one interesting question might be, how has technology changed philosophy? If it wasn't for computers, Tron would have never been a movie.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Rahz]
    #27721378 - 04/05/22 05:21 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

when you die ghengis khan cuts your kidneys out in hell, where you pontificating meatitarians spin downward to


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: lightinsideoflight]
    #27721456 - 04/05/22 06:22 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

:hereyougo:


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27721583 - 04/05/22 08:04 AM (9 months, 19 days ago)

"my hospice cellmate smells so bad...
he is retarded as fuck
jason barraud tankard."

i hope i escape this place...


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Rahz]
    #27721894 - 04/05/22 06:11 PM (9 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
There are various viewpoints that can make sense, states of mind to experience. To think this perception is not the true reality one will usually have idea of what true reality may be, or categorize it in the unknown. The "truth" is always teasing our brains.




What do you make of meta-cognition? I find it interesting that we can have an initial response to existence and then we can also have a response to that response.


Quote:

Rahz said:
But despite all that, there's something "real" about the material world that's fairly undeniable. There's an entirely different train of thought that leads to understanding of form and potential perhaps with presumptions about the underlying nature of reality. I guess one interesting question might be, how has technology changed philosophy? If it wasn't for computers, Tron would have never been a movie.




I'm not sure if much has changed in the large view. I think we're still left with many of the same questions that have been here for a while. Like talking about free will, origin stories, what is death, etc.

But in terms of what those stories look like I think it shifts a lot. The creative process changes with the times in very cool ways.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #27722452 - 04/06/22 04:17 AM (9 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
What do you make of meta-cognition? I find it interesting that we can have an initial response to existence and then we can also have a response to that response.





That is interesting indeed. "know thyself".


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Rahz]
    #27722535 - 04/06/22 05:20 AM (9 months, 18 days ago)

I think the majority of our mental contents is a response to our mental contents that is already a response to our mental contents ad infinitum.

luckily some fresh sensory information sneaks in to help us reconnect to reality if we care.

hopefully it does not have to sneak in loudly as when you bump your head on something.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27722800 - 04/06/22 11:34 AM (9 months, 18 days ago)



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: sudly]
    #27723026 - 04/06/22 05:46 PM (9 months, 17 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I think the majority of our mental contents is a response to our mental contents that is already a response to our mental contents ad infinitum.

luckily some fresh sensory information sneaks in to help us reconnect to reality if we care.

hopefully it does not have to sneak in loudly as when you bump your head on something.




Morning :wave:

lol can't help but think of a game of pinball. and sometimes I do think of memory like pinball. where we try to keep certain aspects of reality around as long as possible by swinging the mental flippers at them. sometimes it seems really obvious to me, like when we keep sentimental objects, or repeat it over and over, or write it down to reference. sometimes it doesn't seem as obvious to me. like when 2 people remember a mutual event differently, even moments after. In a multi-ball scenario, even the most skilled play can only keep so much bouncing. And I think in the less obvious scenario we differ in view of what is happening.

I take it that you think prior memories are solely responsible for what gets bumped back up, because it resonates in the context of all other memories. Where I don't think memory is static/cumulative in this way. Even long term memory and procedural memory, which are the closest I can conceive of as static and cumulative, are subject to change and goofiness. Both when stored and when recalled. Other forms of memory significantly more so. And if our thinking is more dependent on memory than the reality occurring, I think we're doomed to make a whole lot of unnecessary mistakes. But I also think that for this to occur, one is perhaps unintentionally confusing real phenomena with imagined ones. 

I'm curious on your thoughts here. How do you see memory overcoming it's inherent incompleteness and error in a way that would cause it to take president over new phenomena?


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27723261 - 04/06/22 10:28 PM (9 months, 17 days ago)

speculation

Scientists Finally Have Clues About What We See When We Die
Daisy Hernandez
Tue, April 5, 2022, 7:05 AM·4 min read

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/scientists-finally-clues-see-die-130500265.html


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27723288 - 04/06/22 10:49 PM (9 months, 17 days ago)

Pretty neat. Sounds like he passed peacefully which is nice.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27723580 - 04/07/22 03:04 AM (9 months, 17 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:...
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/scientists-finally-clues-see-die-130500265.html




not a bad speculation, but also not a tight grip on things either.


Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I think the majority of our mental contents is a response to our mental contents that is already a response to our mental contents ad infinitum.

luckily some fresh sensory information sneaks in to help us reconnect to reality if we care.

hopefully it does not have to sneak in loudly as when you bump your head on something.




Morning :wave:

lol can't help but think of a game of pinball. and sometimes I do think of memory like pinball. where we try to keep certain aspects of reality around as long as possible by swinging the mental flippers at them. sometimes it seems really obvious to me, like when we keep sentimental objects, or repeat it over and over, or write it down to reference. sometimes it doesn't seem as obvious to me. like when 2 people remember a mutual event differently, even moments after. In a multi-ball scenario, even the most skilled play can only keep so much bouncing. And I think in the less obvious scenario we differ in view of what is happening.

I take it that you think prior memories are solely responsible for what gets bumped back up, because it resonates in the context of all other memories. Where I don't think memory is static/cumulative in this way. Even long term memory and procedural memory, which are the closest I can conceive of as static and cumulative, are subject to change and goofiness. Both when stored and when recalled. Other forms of memory significantly more so. And if our thinking is more dependent on memory than the reality occurring, I think we're doomed to make a whole lot of unnecessary mistakes. But I also think that for this to occur, one is perhaps unintentionally confusing real phenomena with imagined ones. 

I'm curious on your thoughts here. How do you see memory overcoming it's inherent incompleteness and error in a way that would cause it to take president over new phenomena?




You know quite a few things that we know we don't really know that well, for instance, memory (which is all long term memory) is frames of fragments of experience. Episodic memory is just many linked frames of experience.
None of it is ever really accurate, because everything that happens that is similar is engramatically linked together. and overlapped.
we can slither back and forth episodically to try to make a clear point in time but it is only approximate at best.

otherwise, consider that you can have 6 perception events per second  more or less, expanding in fullness on one or many channel/topics, senses. and they fade into the short term memory bucket which is not exactly memory but rather the context that facilitates ongoing perception keeping on topic with what you are up to.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27724013 - 04/07/22 07:56 AM (9 months, 17 days ago)



--------------------

"Souls love. Thats what souls do. Egos dont, but souls do. Become a soul, look around, and youll be amazed-all the beings around you are souls. Be one, see one. When many people have this heart connection, then we will know that we are all one, we human beings all over the planet. We will be one. One love. And dont leave out the animals, and trees, and clouds, and galaxies: its all one. Its one energy." -Ram Dass


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: r3volution.gurl] * 1
    #27724176 - 04/07/22 01:29 PM (9 months, 17 days ago)

sweet,
poetic,
nice animation
I used CC to keep the noise down. sound off,
I do not think there is any harm in it.


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Offlinejoe biden
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27724242 - 04/07/22 03:26 PM (9 months, 17 days ago)

but seriously, the spirit is made flesh
and there are ghost wars


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: joe biden] * 1
    #27724328 - 04/07/22 05:54 PM (9 months, 16 days ago)

cookie  :cookiemonster:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27724359 - 04/07/22 06:40 PM (9 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
None of it is ever really accurate, because everything that happens that is similar is engramatically linked together. and overlapped.




We largely agree and only in some ways differ, yeah? And I'm going to spend most of my energy on trying to understand, theoretically, where those differences emerge from.

From the small bits I know of the ideas behind memory engrams, it's largely based on animal modeling that then becomes applied to human anatomy. That's normal procedure and can be quite enlightening. But I also think it comes with assumptions. An important assumption IMO is the assumed similarity in experience. Memory is experienced in humans, not just behaviorally seen. And most of what we conventionally define as the experience of memory is not the same as what is considered memory in it's behavioral emergence.

For example, I don't consider the ability to lift my hand, or blink my eye, or even to speak as an experience of memory. Yes, you can classify it as that. But are they really? Is it best understood in the memory bucket? For my understanding, it makes more sense as a developmental milestone. As a concrete and fixed experience that if it doesn't happen is indicative of a significant developmental problem. But I'd be very hesitant to say that when I remember one version of events and you remember another, that there must have been a developmental issue. Because memory, as experienced in a human, does not operate in a fixed and pre-determined way. And so both conceptually and experientially I think there are major differences between the engrained patterns of development in human anatomy, and memory. Even though I don't disagree that memory is necessarily anatomical. But rather that functionally there are distinct differences and to lump them together is to wash out function and to overstate the anatomical ties of, say, movement, to a very different experience of the memory of movement.

Is this a key difference in our views?


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27724429 - 04/07/22 07:56 PM (9 months, 16 days ago)

Honestly there are so many theories of mind. I am working with functional correlates of associative memory as that makes the most sense to me.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351220960_Theoretical_Models_of_Consciousness_A_Scoping_Review


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27724472 - 04/07/22 08:34 PM (9 months, 16 days ago)

Well I'll read more but at a first glance here's my take

ART and it's similarity to a neural network in machine learning, feel very much like a better explanation for the way a human develops initially. Where the input of sensory information has to go through pre-defined and expected anatomical outcomes. The specifics of the sensory information are unknown in advance, but the "algorithm" for working with that information is known and is expected to produce a functional outcome. Barring mutation or abnormal environmental factors. 

But we also know that at a certain point many of the developmental milestones are no longer engaged in the same way or even functional. For example, someone who missed the input stimuli for language does not seem to be able to learn how to speak after a certain point.

Again, this is first touch. But first logjam is in projecting that same mechanism forward beyond initial development. In the same way that ML cannot really branch out of it's defined path unless it is rewritten. I'll keep reading.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27724712 - 04/08/22 12:35 AM (9 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
... Episodic memory is just many linked frames of experience.
None of it is ever really accurate, because everything that happens that is similar is engramatically linked together. and overlapped.
we can slither back and forth episodically to try to make a clear point in time but it is only approximate at best.

otherwise, consider that you can have 6 perception events per second  more or less, expanding in fullness on one or many channel/topics, senses. and they fade into the short term memory bucket which is not exactly memory but rather the context that facilitates ongoing perception keeping on topic with what you are up to.




Exactly, so what we take to be both ourself and 'our' life is a very rough approximation, as every story depends on lots of memory to maintain continuity.

In other words what we take to be our life is an abstraction.
In other words what we take to be living is largely an abstraction, as our minds mix a lot of commentary with raw perceptions.

When we are engrossed in a book, with a story, we get involved with what is described or what is happening, and ignore everything that is left out.

In the case of a comic book, especially if we just randomly open it up near the middle and look at a page or 2 it is more obvious how much is left out, as our eyes move from frame to frame.

To keep stories and movies interesting going to the bathroom, and so on are left out, and much of life is actually very repetitious.

Since our personal stories, define how we see the world, and therefore what is possible for us, some view the ego as more of a prison than an asset. This is of course at odds with the current paradigm of self improvement in the US.

Those who take this view may regard death more as a liberation, than as an event to be feared.


Edited by laughingdog (04/08/22 12:36 AM)


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27724769 - 04/08/22 01:36 AM (9 months, 16 days ago)

An approximation of what? An abstraction of what?
If that cannot be answered, then it cannot be declared as an abstraction or approximation IMO


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27724813 - 04/08/22 02:19 AM (9 months, 16 days ago)

Approximation or abstraction of all experience constituting the life or identity? Laughingdog mentioned bathroom use, but I suppose there is a ton of mundane experience that get's left out.

I think also a memory is inherently an approximation of phenomena. For example, eating ice cream -vs- the memory of how good it tasted. Supposition, the memory isn't going to be as good as the real thing.


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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Rahz]
    #27724851 - 04/08/22 02:58 AM (9 months, 16 days ago)

Well memory is of course not equivalent to all experience or to life. It's pretty clearly a subset/piece?

Do you experience yourself as a memory?

If everything experienced is experienced as memory, then there would be no way to tell it as memory.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27724957 - 04/08/22 04:44 AM (9 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Do you experience yourself as a memory?





In so much as our identity is associated with the past, it can only be an approximation of that, and only pieces of it. Pieces of pieces of pieces.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Covid is critical because this is what convinces people to accept, to legitimise total biometrics surveillance.”

  - Yuval Harari


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27724962 - 04/08/22 04:49 AM (9 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
An approximation of what? An abstraction of what?
If that cannot be answered, then it cannot be declared as an abstraction or approximation IMO




When somebody asks: "how was your meal?"
and you say:"It was great."

Obviously all that has been communicated is an approximate reaction, and no detail whatsoever;
thus the "answer" is a very minimal abstraction.

Some people rate everything in terms of how much it cost.
Another form of very minimal abstraction.

You make it out to be some big mystery, but it isn't.
All descriptions of experiences, or experiencing are but a pale shadow of reality.
Other wise, we would all, just tell ourselves stories about some great sexual experience,
or a fantastic experience of downhill skiing, for example, and never bother to go skiing or romancing again, for example.

The statement is hardly controversial, and could perhaps more accurately be said to be trivial.

The point is simply that this is characteristic of all narratives, whether internal thoughts,
or conversational; and again this is hardly controversial, and could perhaps more accurately said to be a commonplace observation.

That next we build our views of reality upon our thoughts, has also been observed for thousands of years.

And if the thoughts are inaccurate approximations...Etc. ...


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Rahz]
    #27725022 - 04/08/22 05:29 AM (9 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Do you experience yourself as a memory?





In so much as our identity is associated with the past, it can only be an approximation of that, and only pieces of it. Pieces of pieces of pieces.




Weird. So you don't think that experiencing identity is, in itself, you? But rather the much smaller part, the identity, is?

I think this is where I keep getting stuck and can't grok what you all are saying. And I must not know how to express it in any meaningful way. But, how can one be aware of memory, if that awareness is itself a memory?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27725025 - 04/08/22 05:32 AM (9 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
An approximation of what? An abstraction of what?
If that cannot be answered, then it cannot be declared as an abstraction or approximation IMO




When somebody asks: "how was your meal?"
and you say:"It was great."

Obviously all that has been communicated is an approximate reaction, and no detail whatsoever;
thus the "answer" is a very minimal abstraction.

Some people rate everything in terms of how much it cost.
Another form of very minimal abstraction.

You make it out to be some big mystery, but it isn't.
All descriptions of experiences, or experiencing are but a pale shadow of reality.
Other wise, we would all, just tell ourselves stories about some great sexual experience,
or a fantastic experience of downhill skiing, for example, and never bother to go skiing or romancing again, for example.

The statement is hardly controversial, and could perhaps more accurately be said to be trivial.

The point is simply that this is characteristic of all narratives, whether internal thoughts,
or conversational; and again this is hardly controversial, and could perhaps more accurately said to be a commonplace observation.

That next we build our views of reality upon our thoughts, has also been observed for thousands of years.

And if the thoughts are inaccurate approximations...Etc. ...




It's a mystery to me. I don't buy into the idea that I am the things you've described. I can "approximate" that. But I also don't buy into the idea that those things are other than me either. Another approximation.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27725250 - 04/08/22 02:17 PM (9 months, 16 days ago)

several of my friends have died.
they are a big part of me still.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27725255 - 04/08/22 02:27 PM (9 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
:hereyougo:




20-30 minutes of meditation a day

:hereyougo:


--------------------
which is bad and which is good
dudelew and
dudelew

Nothing helps in the end like understanding the wisdom-producing aspects of our experience, that is the three charectistics


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27725256 - 04/08/22 02:28 PM (9 months, 16 days ago)

hahaha almost rotfl

DO IIIIT

just do it


--------------------
which is bad and which is good
dudelew and
dudelew

Nothing helps in the end like understanding the wisdom-producing aspects of our experience, that is the three charectistics


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27725309 - 04/08/22 03:54 PM (9 months, 16 days ago)

40 mostly


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27725341 - 04/08/22 04:31 PM (9 months, 15 days ago)

42


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27725342 - 04/08/22 04:33 PM (9 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
several of my friends have died.
they are a big part of me still.




yeah mon



--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinead10dxmnewportbich
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27725389 - 04/08/22 05:23 PM (9 months, 15 days ago)

when you die? who says we are ever going to die anyway? Been a harlot been a queen I've survived for seven hundred years and I still look seventeen....


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: ad10dxmnewportbich]
    #27725399 - 04/08/22 05:41 PM (9 months, 15 days ago)

Been murdered been a killer, been dropped in a gutter and left to sputter. Keep me going?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineTropism
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #27726502 - 04/09/22 08:25 AM (9 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

John said:
???

Just wondering what some of you guys think, sorry if there have been a million of these threads already, but if there has, well peoples precptions change all the time. maybe some of you have a diffrent idea than you had last time you anwsered the question. thanks for any replies :stoned:

oh yeah you don't have to get into every detail I know sometimes peoples beliefs are hard to express through writing and what not and sometimes just go on a understanding or gut feeling you have, just a general idea of what you think :sun:




Return to whole. Not as an experience, but as an energy. I can speculate: maybe it feels great? Feelings are from my nerve endings mostly, and partially artifical.
I cease to be, perhaps I cease. Nothingness. Timelessness, spaceless. Existence outside of spacetime. Unexplainable/Speculatable/Experiencable.

You/I/We are human, a brain responding to nerve endings. We can't know.

You know the old thing from Tyson? A cup of the ocean doesnt represent the whole? How could we know?





Be what you are. Die. Be a thing again. We are all one thing, being itself. 
In short, Bill Hicks nailed it in his bit about a positive LSD story.




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OfflineTropism
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: laughingdog]
    #27726511 - 04/09/22 08:31 AM (9 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
An approximation of what? An abstraction of what?
If that cannot be answered, then it cannot be declared as an abstraction or approximation IMO




When somebody asks: "how was your meal?"
and you say:"It was great."

Obviously all that has been communicated is an approximate reaction, and no detail whatsoever;
thus the "answer" is a very minimal abstraction.

Some people rate everything in terms of how much it cost.
Another form of very minimal abstraction.

You make it out to be some big mystery, but it isn't.
All descriptions of experiences, or experiencing are but a pale shadow of reality.
Other wise, we would all, just tell ourselves stories about some great sexual experience,
or a fantastic experience of downhill skiing, for example, and never bother to go skiing or romancing again, for example.

The statement is hardly controversial, and could perhaps more accurately be said to be trivial.

The point is simply that this is characteristic of all narratives, whether internal thoughts,
or conversational; and again this is hardly controversial, and could perhaps more accurately said to be a commonplace observation.

That next we build our views of reality upon our thoughts, has also been observed for thousands of years.

And if the thoughts are inaccurate approximations...Etc. ...




You're not wrong. But it is indeed trivial.


Even a rock can be put on a pedastal, but its just a rock.
Don't hyperfixate on the inane. While everything is indeed meaninful, some deserts truly are barren.


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Offlinepsilocybinmansions
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Tropism]
    #27727688 - 04/10/22 02:14 AM (9 months, 14 days ago)

What you are experiencing now as wakefulness goes nowhere in death.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle]
    #27728504 - 04/10/22 06:04 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Do you experience yourself as a memory?





In so much as our identity is associated with the past, it can only be an approximation of that, and only pieces of it. Pieces of pieces of pieces.




Weird. So you don't think that experiencing identity is, in itself, you? But rather the much smaller part, the identity, is?

I think this is where I keep getting stuck and can't grok what you all are saying. And I must not know how to express it in any meaningful way. But, how can one be aware of memory, if that awareness is itself a memory?




Hmm, well awareness isn't a memory but memory may be something in awareness. In that sense we are more the awareness itself. Identity too, to whatever degree it's based on memory (the past) is something that is transient in awareness. There is utility of some kind in identity but it probably shouldn't be taken as objective fact beyond whatever the utility is. Not sure if that's what you're getting at.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Covid is critical because this is what convinces people to accept, to legitimise total biometrics surveillance.”

  - Yuval Harari


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Rahz]
    #27728694 - 04/10/22 08:21 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

This is going to sound whacky and nonsensical to some but maybe not to others. IME memory in the truest sense of it's appearance in awareness is a timed release. It is not a perpetual experience in awareness (for most?). Even if, once memory appears, certain elements can be understood retroactively to have been the emergence of memory.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #27728762 - 04/10/22 09:00 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

That doesn't sound wacky to me, hence my mention of transient, though I think when talking about the complexity of the brain, trying to simplify the functions can become reductive. The specific type of memory we've been discussing may be different than other functions that access memory. Memory could be used for a great many things and only be aware of some of it in the moment.

Who are we when we're not aware of our identity?

Seems these are stories/memory/creativity/association we tell ourselves, but it sure would be a lot of trouble to hold it all the time. It seems we hold it as much as the utility requires.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Covid is critical because this is what convinces people to accept, to legitimise total biometrics surveillance.”

  - Yuval Harari


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Rahz]
    #27728771 - 04/10/22 09:05 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

Well I'm fairly sure the misses killed me last night. But it was a gentle and exceedingly loving murder where most of it was experienced by her. Even though I've felt the experience of dying as well. It has left an interesting space where identity was. How am I here? Through her.

Again, this may sound whacky and nonsensical to some but not others.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: Rahz]
    #27728792 - 04/10/22 09:23 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Do you experience yourself as a memory?





In so much as our identity is associated with the past, it can only be an approximation of that, and only pieces of it. Pieces of pieces of pieces.




Weird. So you don't think that experiencing identity is, in itself, you? But rather the much smaller part, the identity, is?

I think this is where I keep getting stuck and can't grok what you all are saying. And I must not know how to express it in any meaningful way. But, how can one be aware of memory, if that awareness is itself a memory?




Hmm, well awareness isn't a memory but memory may be something in awareness. In that sense we are more the awareness itself. Identity too, to whatever degree it's based on memory (the past) is something that is transient in awareness. There is utility of some kind in identity but it probably shouldn't be taken as objective fact beyond whatever the utility is. Not sure if that's what you're getting at.



Awareness is related to your contextual memory, i.e. short term memory which is simply that sliding window of the last 5 minutes of time of all things sensed and perceived (and perception is the reflex response from memory to current mental contents - perception is weighted towards short term memory as these neurons are still primed for action - more so than not recently visited memory neurons).

when your short term memory is reduced such as when you are really stoned (which exhausts the cortical neurons as they feedback with the thalamus for too long (i.e. longer than 6-10 loops, probably 20-40 loops - making ultra trails and heavy frame stacking), you have no contextual reference, you are probably not even aware of who you are, what you are doing, or where you are to any extent. this is effectively a non-functional awareness.

A mild loss of short term memory/awareness i.e. from some cannabis for instance may lead to forgetting why you went into a room, but you still know who you are somewhat.

this also happens more extremely during sleep walking, perceptive reflexes work, walking is an example, avoiding walls is an example; but nobody is home, no awareness of who or where you are or how you got there (I have had this on salvia a few times).

is awareness memory, well yes, in the sense that with a functioning short term memory, and some awareness, your perceptions resolve around the current context from memory. Otherwise, only very shallow perceptual memory reflexes can engage from sensory impressions against ingrained habits, like physical sequence memory with spatial temporal proprioception. When sleepwalking or blackout happens usually no new memory is being formed.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27728802 - 04/10/22 09:31 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

when your short term memory is reduced such as when you are really stoned (which exhausts the cortical neurons as they feedback with the thalamus for too long (i.e. longer than 6-10 loops, probably 20-40 loops - making ultra trails and heavy frame stacking), you have no contextual reference, you are probably not even aware of who you are, what you are doing, or where you are to any extent. this is effectively a non-functional awareness.

Heh. Here's how this went down today at the store as I stumbled in a bit of a fugue.

This misses says, she'll be my memory. And if she's in a fog, well...
to which I responded, we'll go through it together


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: John]
    #27736428 - 04/16/22 05:08 AM (9 months, 8 days ago)

I do not even exist.
Life is just a word.

for there are moments
in between moments
where I do not exist.

Each night I perish,
each morning I am born again.

What happens when a leaf falls?
What happens when a star explodes?

Am I not, like you,

the afterlife of billions of years of existence already?
Every glowing atom.

Each and all.

If there is life after death: this is it.


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Invisible2sky
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Re: What happens when you die? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27996425 - 10/13/22 03:05 PM (3 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
certainty is illusion
familiarity is the best we get.

I am not familiar with anything suggestive of life after death, and of that I am certain.




You will never know until you touch the fire so deep within you - but you need a little incentive :

Tommy - 1973


--------------------
to fly to the sun , and lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing - In Search of the Lost Chord / The Moody Blues - 1968

but for a tree to grow to the sky it's roots must go to the very depths of hell itself - the 1976 edition of Only One Sky / rajneesh


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