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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: zzripz]
    #23287460 - 05/30/16 08:42 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

I use the word entheogen all the time in reference to these substances. I just don't find the word "drug" a dirty word, and often reference chemicals directly, mescaline, psilocybin, psilocin, LSD etc.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23287577 - 05/30/16 09:28 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Most written definitions of the word drug are so broad that anything you consume or come into tactile contact is a drug.

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: falcon]
    #23287780 - 05/30/16 10:42 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

I know, but the idea here is that we're taking consciousness constricting chemicals like opiates, alcohol, benzos, and amphetamines and calling them drugs because they are seen as harmful, it's pejorative because we have a "war on drugs".  So, we're trying to separate chemicals like MDMA (which has known to help people with PTSD), psilocybin (studies have shown it to help people with OCD, amongst other things), LSD, which has a plethora of medicinal usages including helping those comes to terms with a terminal illness (pretty sure all these substances do that) and we're calling them entheogens, because they nourish the spirit.

I guess the chemist in me sees them all as chemicals with their own potential uses and abuses.  That's the point I'm trying to make, one that isn't very popular.  I've been treated in a mean spirited way for simply seeing things differently.

One thing that has been bothering me lately though is a guy who was suffering from borderline personality disorder had a complete psychotic break and thought he was a clone of president Obama and escaped his condo jumping down balconies and ended up wrecking his car into a hospital (fortunately not hurting anyone).  At times he had moments of lucidity where he mentioned he was bipolar and specific drugs he needed, but the nurses in the ER didn't listen to him.  His father, who was a medical doctor flew in immediately to try to explain that he thinks his son is in need of psychiatric help, and again was dismissed, perhaps because he was Haitian or simply that he wasn't a doctor there.  Eventually when the borderline guy woke up he started pulling needles out of his arms and was in a general scared, hostile mood, and they called the cops.... The cop went straight for the kill shot, right to the chest.  I doubt that would have happened if he wasn't a black man.  But nobody gave it a second thought that he was mentally ill, they just assumed he was on hallucinogens.  I believe that happened in Huston, TX.  There's a fairly recent episode of This American Life (podcast) you can listen to about it if you're interested.  Their hospital may lose federal funding over this "accident".  I hope they do.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #23288394 - 05/30/16 02:20 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Etymology indicates that "drug" finds its original meaning in something like a backed supply, in the "droges". That place of supply probably in the first place, means what was found in a process od preservation, for instance in drying of herbs, making of tinctures, and distilling and so on. Clearly that relates also as a commodity, supply and demand, as well and of course, how it is seen and characterized in this way too. It is seen to relate to humans in this sense, and that meaning evolves into what we take as a drug. That may be why the term "drug" is so notional.

There is probably not a technical or scientific basis in the term, even if it seems this way. We cleave to an empirical conception, the observation of an effect, as meaning, but I suspect it is really the withholding of that (whether for wisdom about the actual reality of the human organism, or for cultural reasons, or for plain prejudice). That as a whole, seems to be what the word drug meaningfully appeals to. The withholding of supply of things which incidentally have such effects.

A drug in this sense is primarily something colloquial to a people and culture, and in spite of attempts to reduce meaning to something specific, I think anyone can see it is notional. For instance, we are part of an alcohol and nicotone and caffeine economy, and so generally, actually we don't call those substances and commodities "drugs". Alcohol, cigarretes, and caffiene are not drugs; so much as they are benign consumptions, like our foods. There may be some reality to this, that alcohol is benign, (and a glass of wine or beer at night is great for your health and so on) but everybody knows that to say this, is based on cultural norms. They are not often referred to as drugs. Street drugs and what your doctor gives you are drugs, because they are withheld in our general access.

Someone can beg the question here, and say technically our staple drugs, drugs taken to be benign are drugs. For instance, anything with a particularly observable effect on the nervous system is prevalently and without question considered a drug, and so we may wonder why some thigns (like alcohol etc) are excluded from this. I'd say the reason is because the term is not technical and given to be qualified, even if we find this wedge in dialogues. Is there really an inherent scientific meaning to a drug - as for instance, CJ suggests could be found in chemistry? I doubt this.

It may correct certain prejudicial assumptions of a society to indicate that the meaning of drugs overlaps with alcohol and cigarettes, and caffeine which incidentally are drugs, but I think the thing is the underlying terms are not certain, they just present these notional dialogues. For instance I think it is more significant that while considered benign, staple drugs are also somewhat limited, held behind counters or regulations and taxes... Caffeine is the only "drug" in that sense which is completely free of any fetters of the droges, and naturally it is what we find in our foods like coffee, anx presented to us that way. The same goes for natural and added sugars in foods, which as anyone may be aware, also can have a profound effect on a nervous system, and health, that people relate to, and get hooked upon, and yet we take it entirely for granted that we find added sugars in a lot of food.

I think the etymology here is fundamentally instructive. Withholding of a supply, the droges and stores, is what is basic to the meaning, and it is entirely human first. In withholding, in having limited access, anti-biotics and vaccines, all the things that a doctor administers to patients with certain effects are also drugs. It is not just things that have effects on the nervous system. Some drugs are very important to the health, in this sense without directly affecting the nervous system. Here the observation of an effect, becomes something different and because these are not benign, "food like" substances (for instance a food can be very good for you without symptoms of its effects) a drug is anything withheld, and administered that is not native to the body, that is nonetheless desired or found useful, healthy or recreational. A drug is in withholding, giving access, or administering from some priviliged position.

It is also the more or less seen observation of an effect in such things consumed and imbibed, but the basic meaning is associated and unified only in it being withheld in store from a human economy, whether it is the natural organism or human beings writ large. So what I am saying, to the topic, is I think the term is quite notional, before it is scientific. The way we look to our drugs and medicines as giving effects, is actually notional. It is the empiric school of medicine that speaks.

Just because in a certain provision of dialogue we can appeal to this idea of a drug being something which tends to affect a nervous system, and we can find some point in this (yes, alcohol, cigerretes, caffeine, and sugar are "drugs") this is notional and not getting to any basic chemical reality. A drug is anything withheld for having any such kind of significant effect, by correlation, which is not fundamentally native to the body. Hence, a drug excludes what hippocrites calls medicines, it excludes vitamins, and foods, or other things which are more closely associated to a native or "natural" regulation of an organism, that are generally, or again by some notion however useful, benign from all points of view.

There is obviously some problems with using the word, because it appeals to the prejudices of our culture (whether it is in what "droges", or economies of existence, we accept or reject.)

That is my theory, fellas. I'm on board with Falcon - only it is not just in anything, or anything that has an "effect" if imbibed, (just the empirical notion) it is the relation of that to how for humans, they are withdrawn, or ready to hand to us.

Quote:


drug (n.)

late 14c. (early 14c. in Anglo-French), "medicine, chemical ingredients," from Old French droge "supply, stock, provision" (14c.), which is of unknown origin, perhaps from Middle Dutch or Middle Low German droge-vate "dry barrels," or droge waere, literally "dry wares," but specifically drugs and spices, with first element mistaken as word for the contents (see dry goods), or because medicines mostly consisted of dried herbs.

Compare Latin species, in Late Latin "wares," then specialized to "spices" (French épice, English spice). The same source produced Italian and Spanish droga, Swedish drog.

Application to "narcotics and opiates" is late 19c., though association with "poisons" is 1500s. Druggie first recorded 1968. To be a drug on or in the market (mid-17c.) is of doubtful connection and may be a different word, perhaps a play on drag, which was sometimes drug c. 1240-1800.



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23288958 - 05/30/16 05:00 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Reality is what one makes of it. There is no base-line meaning to any 'thing.' All you've done is reduce the claim to the entheogenic/sacramental value to a rather banal and pedestrian cultural term. You haven't reduced these subjects further into historical/cultural subsets of human culture, neither have you reduced them to mere biochemistry. Reductionism of entheogens to chemistry is to me like the mother of the bedouin who unearthed the Nag Hammadi library and only saw some old crumbling parchment (which it was on HER level of understanding), some of which she used to start a cook fire to bake bread with. :eek:

Yes, there may be an intrinsic specialness ("magical") to certain plants because their nature corresponds in a special way to human consciousness. Sympathetic magic is all about correspondences. Of course one could argue that other mushrooms, for example, embody especially horrible ways of ending human life, and why would those species need to produce such God-aweful toxins? One species is like an angel of mercy, another is a Death Angel. God seems to have programmed Life like the inventor of Super Mario: finding a green mushroom that gives you an extra life versus the 1-Up mushroom that chases you relentlessly (even unto death I suppose).

We go through life seeking and finding meaning which we attribute to various things. Some meanings have a more 'robust fit' as they say in statistics. We can also choose to ignore meanings like those who regard the miracle of Synchronicity as 'ONLY a meaningless coincidence.' I suspect that each of us completes a picture of our understanding of Life that is like a jigsaw puzzle, but there are multiple pieces of the same shape and the picture that non entheogenic humans creates of Life looks a LOT different to them. Something tells me it will be serious lacking in elements of fascination, surrealism, symmetry and both subtlety and vibrancy of color.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #23289025 - 05/30/16 05:16 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Except I use the word entheogen in reference to certain substances such as LSD, Psilocybin, Mescaline, and DMT constantly.  But to me it's fairly obvious none of these "entheogens" will heal anyone on their own, it's a matter of one's mindset, environment, and guidance that allows for the healing.  Otherwise they're just chemicals, and can be a complete nightmare for those who lack the proper guidance.

It appears the word drug is banal and pedestrian to you, but  you are unwilling to consider that it's you who are being elitist and pretentious?  Like somehow calling it an entheogen is going to make a damned bit of difference to somebody unprepared for the substance.  It's only entheogenic because you are using it for spiritual purposes, it's not entheogenic in nature and can be downright harmful to those who don't understand what they're getting themselves into.  To me it's best to consider it a drug with the potential for entheogenic states when used in the proper set and setting, but it in of itself is not an entheogen, but rather a psychoactive substance.

Have you ever considered there might already be "research chemicals" out there that have a greater potential for healing than LSD, we just lack the time and information that comes with roughly 80 years of LSD's existence, thus they will be mistrusted :shrug:.

I'll remind you that you said you used these substances for some 20 years and did not consider yourself happy until your 40s?  I mean honestly, where was your sense of fascination, surrealism, symmetry and both subtlety and vibrancy of color during that period?  Maybe if you had the proper guidance things would have been different?


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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OfflineAuroraBorealis88
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23289986 - 05/30/16 10:01 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

I think you've just done too many psychedelics and now you're a twat.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23291124 - 05/31/16 07:08 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

I would say that the ONLY times that I felt harmonious and balanced during a 20 year period following college was when I was tripping. Working for my father for a year was awful. Then I began 4 years of grad school that was very stressful with work and poverty, and I was so busy, a trip was a rarity. By the second year I had met my ex-wife. The first 3 years were OK, (the first year was la ong-distance relationship), but I was in school for those 3 years. Following grad school and moving to Florida I was denied licensure at the expected level, and could not find relevant work for 2 years. Had I not had the inner fortitude afforded by the detachment learned from psychedelics, I would have been destroyed. As it was, I was merely devastated. Bad enough but survivable. It is not always a matter of being "happy." Happiness is dependent on external conditions in my hierarchy of inner states. I nevertheless retained an inner sustaining 'joy,' even as I suffered through my first several years of Herpes infections incurred through my stupidity while in school. There was the bad marriage, and then the 4 post-divorce years into which were folded my mother's death and me getting Malignant Melanoma just as I met Rose and bought a house. Rose and the house brought me happiness, but I still had an abiding and sustaining joy transcending my trials and tribulations, allowing me to calmly make plans to die in the woods of New Hampshire at my friend's house if necessary if the skin cancer took me. So yes, I was not 'happy,' but my heart's Heart was open and glowing deep within. That "small still voice" was audible, the joy was indwelling dimly at times, but I was never forsaken.

I am not being "elitist and pretentious" because I am perceiving the 'best fit' meaning for the word 'entheogen.' You are seeing the substance outside of its sacred function and you are quite right in saying that I am "using it for spiritual purposes," and that it "can be downright harmful to those who don't understand what they're getting themselves into." There are many parallels to this in the history of initiation, substance-based and otherwise. But I disagree when you choose to see these substances as dependent upon conscious choice: "It's only entheogenic because you are using it for spiritual purposes." I think Terrence McKenna would disagree with you because ancient people, perhaps watching animals imbibing Amanitas for example, must have been surprised to the point of awe when they first ate it. They were not consciously choosing to experience the spiritual, the spiritual blind-sided them with a new discovery, and the experience was spontaneous. No doubt there must have been those who went mad, maybe ODed and died, and more than likely religious stories were supplied to suggest that the spirits were unhappy or that the person was unworthy, but there is something in these substances which are not dependent upon conscious expectation such as you insist upon.

Even present day thrill-seekers sometimes come away changed, as I was. I thought I was going to "see colors" :lol: on my first Windowpane dose. I DID see pink and blue auras and blue prana exhaled from my friend's mouth, but the experience changed my life. At the time I didn't know what to make of it, and so my quest began, beginning with a magickal model - not even a psychological one as I had come away with during my first Morning Glory seed experience. One occult model led to a more sophisticated one, and continued exploration, no doubt influenced by reading and contemplation, shaped mystical experiences even more profound than magickal ones. Intellectual ideas were experienced as abiding truths. Those who took psychedelics for purposes other than pure seeking - to appear cool, to escape, to 'get high,' just because someone gave it to them, because The Beatles took it, because Leary said "turn on," or for whatever else, discovered the hard way the difference between the sacred and the profane, just as the ancients did when they too were found unworthy by their lack of preparation or  irreverence. The punishment for divulging anything of the experience, or for taking the entheogenic kykeon outside the prescribed Mystery Rites at Eleusis was, for 1000 years, punishable with death! That's how important it was for those Greeks to regard the kykeon with the appropriate respect, and not to regard it as a profane intoxication. If you want to call their proscription as being "elitist and pretentious," then suit yourself. People scrimped and saved and made pilgrimage to Eleusis for The Entheogenic Experience which changed lives by quelling fear of death and instilling hope for eternal life. My own attitude is a faint echo of the respect of those who conducted those Mystery Rites. I don't know where your objection lies if you have yourself experienced "The Holy." :shrug:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23291164 - 05/31/16 07:29 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The punishment for divulging anything of the experience, or for taking the entheogenic kykeon outside the prescribed Mystery Rites at Eleusis was, for 1000 years, punishable with death! That's how important it was for those Greeks to regard the kykeon with the appropriate respect, and not to regard it as a profane intoxication. If you want to call their proscription as being "elitist and pretentious," then suit yourself. People scrimped and saved and made pilgrimage to Eleusis for The Entheogenic Experience which changed lives by quelling fear of death and instilling hope for eternal life. My own attitude is a faint echo of the respect of those who conducted those Mystery Rites. I don't know where your objection lies if you have yourself experienced "The Holy." :shrug:




well for you that punishment, and social 'acceptance' of that draconian law, is  having respect for the 'sacred kykeon', but I don't. I see that as the continuing elitist oppression and attack on common people having the freedom of access to psychedelics, and to take a psychedelic vegetation and/or potion in whatsoever way they choose, and to interpret the experience in whatever way they choose which is unique to them.
This is why I started that thread exploring this question currently a while ago about how the therapeutic community now tries to put-down 'recreational' psychedelic experience as being harmful/dangerous/not-as-healing, and thus cow-towing to the oppressive warmongering, war criminal, ecocidal, State and its continuing war on psychedelics which affects ALL people, and the whole natural world!

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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23291274 - 05/31/16 08:14 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

It''s good to project and wise.

Complex delusions and fantasies should be our main antagonists in the search for meaning and truth

What I see is the aftermath of organisational meddling in belief altering substances.

My own belief is we are organisms congruent to our environmental pressures where're cultural

and

A silent chuckle is probably the best remedy for this shitshow.

Edited by Jaegar (05/31/16 08:25 AM)

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23291643 - 05/31/16 10:29 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

No, I read Doors of Perception & The Joyous Cosmology and some Ram Dass before being shocked the shit by 400ug out of Consciousness.  However, I at least had read The Psychedelic Experience and had a trip guide on hand.  I must have wanted to know what the hell a mystical experience was, but even after all of that reading I had not even an inkling of what I was getting myself into until it was happening.  I see your point of view and am not looking to argue with you over a 3 month old thread being drudged up to troll me, when we can have a discussion about it.  I vaguely remember a Bill Hicks routine where he was imitating early man high on mushrooms (I think) and discovering the joy of percussion and rhythm and what novelty that must have been.  It was very clever.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23291680 - 05/31/16 10:40 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

I dunno, I think I agree with CJ on this one.  A constructive psychedelic experience is as much about you as it is the "drug," if not substantially more so.  I also don't see any problem with the connotations of the word "drug."  It's easy and people know what you're talking about.

But yeah, the main factor is you, not the drug.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: zzripz]
    #23291736 - 05/31/16 10:57 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

My respect is for reverence, not draconian punishments or punishments of any sort. Your attitude towards unrestricted access to powerful psychedelics will never fly in any society. It's like gun nuts who want teachers to possess guns in classrooms because of the history of heinous mass-shooting. What could go wrong? :lol: Sorry, responsible leaders are not going to put LSD in gum ball machines because someone like you demands it. I don't care what you or other people think of psychedelics or the psychedelic experience, but irresponsible behaviors are what resulted in the oppression and criminal charges implemented by law enforcement in the first place. We already have immense freedom to grow mushrooms at home and except for those who want to advertise the sale of the fruit against federal, state, and local laws, law enforcement doesn't storm your house. Some therapists may vocalize objections to recreational use of psychedelics but in all probability they are those who want to monopolize the process for personal gain. This may or may not have been a motive at Eleusis since the price of admission was apparently steep. Nevertheless, unguided usage by the uninitiated is irresponsible and stupid. Even in the 60s and 70s, the experienced users often volunteered to stay with newbies for at least the getting off stage - even strangers selling a $2 tab. It should not go unmentioned that dosing someone unwittingly is immoral, sadistic, and criminal, and has resulted in suicides like Dr. Frank Olson who suicided after being dosed by the CIA the year I was born. Irresponsibility can be due to malice as well as stupidity.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23291886 - 05/31/16 11:46 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I dunno, I think I agree with CJ on this one.  A constructive psychedelic experience is as much about you as it is the "drug," if not substantially more so.  I also don't see any problem with the connotations of the word "drug."  It's easy and people know what you're talking about.

But yeah, the main factor is you, not the drug.





That's what I'm trying to say, it's all within you.  You're taking a chemical.  Maybe you're not aware of this psychedelic, arguably holy mode of perception available to you, but it didn't come from "out there", it came from within.  The psychedelic functioned as a key.  Then again, I took LSD a half a dozen times before I had the breakthrough that I was seeking.  It took a whopping 400ug, a few wise words from a friend, and perhaps a  bong hit at the peak of the trip to see things from a radically different lens, where death was not the end of Consciousness.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23292362 - 05/31/16 02:02 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Well said.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23292558 - 05/31/16 02:52 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Here is a situation I can see playing out.

Two people are smoking a bud. One person will talk about set and setting or the experience and another will talk about strains, and strengths, and so on. But is one person concerned with the experience and the other the substance? This is just an example of something that comes up, I'm not saying it is essential.

I'd say I am usually associating with the experience for instance, and let the drug come through on its own. But that doesn't mean blindness to the substance's "effects".

People who value "the experience" sometimes be the purists, and actually in that sense, now they look to the substance, and conceive it as something special. A purist might prefer substances which generally create a certain kind of more or less similar psychedelic trip. (I like the term psychedelic.) So Jimi Hendrix had this song; are you experienced...? "Have you ever been experienced, I know I have..."

But is it knowledge? While I think Cactus, psychedelic mushrooms, LSA (morning glory seeds) and LSD all create a similar psychedelic trip, there are exceptions like Salvia Divinorum (at least imo) which are similar and jyst as worthy of respect but different. Not to mention I think pot is psychedelic, although I don't know if I have ever tripped on it.


In philosophy in general, the idea that experience is knowledge of something is significantly put forth, but also questionable. That is just what is happening I think. For instance in western philosophy a common trope, is to say that experience relates to the senses, what you can touch and see, as the world, and so material things and sometimes, a conventional attitude. Sometimes in spite of any suggestion of its openness, and unfettered approach empirikos (what is found in trial, or in experience)  means prescription of cause and effect and determinate laws of the natural world.

Sometimes experience, means something specifically questioning of any sort of platonic, or transcendental ideal, in a broader sense, and sometimes it means fear to walk through the doors of perception, as experience. But we navigate experience in such a general sense, and some people will cleave to their conceptions of A-->B, and live that way. Still today, (as if in a one dimensional sense) the most contended issue of philosophy concerns the valuing and perhaps among some, the "what is" of experience.

Anyway, I think it is possible to say that psychedelics are substances and experiences - they are both. I think having a preference for the essential, the "what is" in psychedelics is a good thing, I am not sure I am so certain enough to be a purist though. The what is, is a question to me, and something like that I think, is not wholly unguided.

To quote Martin Heidegger, "questioning builds a way..." I think we are questioning, and the basis and provisions we have may be more or less certain, but I don't see definite answers. And I would not doubt that we abstract from, and distill our experiences in this way.

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23292735 - 05/31/16 03:41 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

My respect is for reverence, not draconian punishments or punishments of any sort. Your attitude towards unrestricted access to powerful psychedelics will never fly in any society. It's like gun nuts who want teachers to possess guns in classrooms because of the history of heinous mass-shooting. What could go wrong? :lol: Sorry, responsible leaders are not going to put LSD in gum ball machines because someone like you demands it. I don't care what you or other people think of psychedelics or the psychedelic experience, but irresponsible behaviors are what resulted in the oppression and criminal charges implemented by law enforcement in the first place.




I respect them but that don't mean I would want to be some kind of glorified mafia family which hands out severe punishment for using a psychedelic, or our psychedelic recipe! That aint respect that is oppression. And your analogy is ridculous

'Responsible leaders'...?
I mean dude, you come on like your from the 1960s and have hung out with this person that and the other but to me reveal yourself to be very naive when you say such a thing. Your 'responsible leaders' do not give a shit about your welfare or anybody's. The co-called 'war on drugs' has even been admitted to by a former president Nixon staffer---though the more savvy of us knew this ages a-fkin go--an evil plan to demonize black people, and hippies, including anti-Vietnam war protesters because they were seen as a threat:

Quote:

"Nixon Invented the Drug War to Decimate Hippies and Black People, Former Adviser Confesses:
President Richard Nixon launched the War on Drugs for one specific reason: to decimate his perceived political enemies—the anti-war left, and black people.

That's according to an anecdote in a lengthy cover story for Harper's, in which journalist Dan Baum recounts an interview he conducted with John Erlichman, a former Nixon staffer who was jailed for one year due to his involvement in the Watergate scandal. Unprompted, Erlichman confessed the true purpose of federal drug prohibition:

    “You want to know what this was really all about?” he asked with the bluntness of a man who, after public disgrace and a stretch in federal prison, had little left to protect. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
-- http://reason.com/blog/2016/03/22/nixon-invented-the-drug-war-to-decimate https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23248720/fpart/2/vc/1/nt/1#23248720




NO one. No other adults or adult has any right whatsoever to tell me I am a criminal for picking and eating and/or cultivating cannabis or magic mushrooms. That is not responsibility but oppression.

So you have freedom to grow psychedelic mushrooms at home...? We don't here in the UK! Even Amsterdam, one of the most liberated places in Europe for decriminalized  psychedelic use were banned from selling them a few years ago, though they can magic truffles.

Quote:

It should not go unmentioned that dosing someone unwittingly is immoral, sadistic, and criminal, and has resulted in suicides like Dr. Frank Olson who suicided after being dosed by the CIA the year I was born. Irresponsibility can be due to malice as well as stupidity.




funnily enough i was kinda an 'unknowing victim' when only 15 when offered this tiny tiny little blu tab which i assumed was a bluey (speed), but this experience which had me taking more trips undid all the toxic crap the culture had done to me----dulling me to nature, so for me it was a good thing. Thank fck it wasn't the CIA!

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: zzripz]
    #23293193 - 05/31/16 05:47 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

:rofl2: You're arguing with yourself, and you cannot follow my meaning because your head is all clogged up with your own shit. You're more interested in a monologue than a dialogue. WTF are you going on about mafia family yadda yadda dispensing psychedelics. Mushroom-growing in the states is not legal for sale or consumption. In my state one could grow the old fashioned way and have up to 13 grain jars but for non-consumption purposes only. Ridiculous. Nobody but you is arguing about picking plants. You may as well argue with the mirror because you're clearly not addressing me on this issue. This isn't even part of anything I've said. :wtf: As for Nixon - yeah he implemented the DEA but you're not even living in the USA so what are you getting so pissy about? I actually voted for Nixon! Why? His platform was the voluntary draft and I was already signed up at the draft board. My number was 179 and that's just shy of the middle of the year. My status was changed from 1-H reserve to 1-A!!! So, at age 19 I voted my interest - NOT getting drafted. I wasn't, thank God, so that sociopath did something good by de-escalating ground troops (even if he did escalate bombing, the bastard).

Of course people have a right to tell you not to break laws if they're the lawmakers and if the majority of the people are in favor of the laws. If you have to be a criminal by their standards then that's the way it is. So you can't purchase mushrooms. That's never been a legal option in the States. What, you've never grown your own mushrooms? :eek:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23294812 - 06/01/16 03:19 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Well, I think most of us can agree that hearing the statement "I got fucked up on shrooms last night." (or better yet "boomerz") is cringe worthy.  Where if somebody said "After consuming the drug psilocybin, I experienced profound joy and freedom", nobody would have any great objections.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
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Re: Drug vs. Entheogen [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #23295420 - 06/01/16 09:13 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

:rofl2: You're arguing with yourself, and you cannot follow my meaning because your head is all clogged up with your own shit.




I would be more than willing to argue with you on this level, but as it is there are supposed to be forum rules, so let me remind you of them again seeing no one else seems to be:

Quote:



If you choose to post in this forum be prepared to have your ideas and opinions challenged, refuted, disputed, rebutted, analyzed, shredded, pooh-poohed, and yes - even supported. If having your beliefs, opinions, and positions scrutinized critically makes you uncomfortable, this is not the forum for you.



1) No flaming. If you can't state your case or refute someone else's case without calling him/her "stupid" or an "idiot" don't post here. This forum is for intelligent discussion, not for belittling someone who holds differing opinions. This rule will be strictly enforced. If you have been warned already you will receive a ban, if you continue to flame you will be banned permanently. Choose your words wisely or suffer the consequences.



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