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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Illogical & Unanswerable Questions
    #2293858 - 02/02/04 10:16 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

*Disclaimer: This post is not meant to be offensive to anyone, so read nothing more into it that exactly what is written.*

If a child asks what purple sounds like, you might chuckle silently to yourself while attempting to explain that the question itself is unanswerable because it doesn't make sense.

Many questions asked on this board, while semantically and grammatically correct, also make no sense.

This same child asks, "Daddy, where does the music go?" after you turned off the CD player. You attempt to explain (using different words) that it does not go anywhere; that it is an emergent property of a system that includes a power source, a player, a medium, a sound generator and an observer. You further explain that if any piece is missing or malfunctioning or not functioning then there is no music.

Now when it comes to life and humans, similar questions seem to make more sense, but on a deeper look, I contend they are of a similar nature.

Let's take a fictional man, Al Smith, on his journey through life. Al's parents copulate and an egg is fertilized and an embryo forms which becomes a fetus and so on. One frequent question crops up at this point that is unaswerable because it doesn't make sense, "When does the soul enter fetus Al's body?" Life is a continuum, not a clearly marked starting line. Nothing needs to be "added" at any point for AL to function except for biofuel.

Moving along, Al becomes a baby, then a child, then an adult, (all linguistic markers that are used for convenience, but have no real meaning) then a faltering senior. When looking at the ailing old man, does one ask where the child AL went or is the question itself in error? Is not Al an emergent property of a biological system just like the music? When Al gets Alzheimers (no pun there folks) and cannot remember faces and has trouble with words, people might say that he is no longer "himself". When was he ever himself? Al was always a product of a bio-mechanical system which just now happens to be decaying / malfunctioning.

Al finally dies and the seemingly logical, but wrong-headed question gets asked, "Where did Al go?" The same "place" that the music went to.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblechunder
marker

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 966
Loc: The City
Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2294078 - 02/02/04 11:49 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

So when we die we go to the place where the music is?!? Sweet!


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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: chunder]
    #2294094 - 02/02/04 11:58 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
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Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2294139 - 02/02/04 12:19 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

so Al is recorded digitally or magnetically somewhere, waiting for somebody to push "play" again?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Strumpling]
    #2294154 - 02/02/04 12:26 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

No, Al is defunct and beyond repair. A new system must be biologically replicated (his children) which will have similar, but different emergent properties.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2294177 - 02/02/04 12:38 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

One life cycle is just like one track of the whole record Swami. Even when it ends, it loops back to the first track or it's endless but just the one working with the cd player knows it.
Too bad we can only hear one track on each life but anyway, the good part is we hear it on first hand ....

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2294244 - 02/02/04 01:09 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

there is an immaterial component to human beings

there is an immaterial aspect to music as well, when taken as a whole, but still, it's made up of individual notes, and those notes can further be reduced to nothing more than zeros and ones.

you know, we're living in the Information Age, everything can and HAS been reduced to zeros and ones. sorry.

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2294261 - 02/02/04 01:15 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Al was always a product of a bio-mechanical system which just now happens to be decaying / malfunctioning.




How can you say that with any certainty?

What if the biomechanical system was a product of Al?

Correletion is not causation.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2294282 - 02/02/04 01:24 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

What if the biomechanical system was a product of Al?

that's the central question isn't it?

there's really no way to know that with 100% certainty, despite what anyone might say. but we do know these things:

1. disrupting the biomechanical system has an effect on Al (drugs, NDEs, etc.)
2. the biomechanical system can exist without Al, but not vice versa (as far as we know)

you might ask, can't Al also effect his biomechanical system? by the force of his WILL? yes certainly.. but what is will? is it something that is independent of the biomechanical system or something that arises out of it?


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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2294314 - 02/02/04 01:42 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

they still have yet to locate the "executive" area of the brain. Not to mention long-term memory storage.

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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2294426 - 02/02/04 02:39 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

If a child asks what purple sounds like, you might chuckle silently to yourself while attempting to explain that the question itself is unanswerable because it doesn't make sense.

The question may make no sense to me...but it would make perfect sense to another human with synesthesia :wink:

Which makes the question neither illogical or unanswerable in absolute terms...only illogical in a relative sense.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2294474 - 02/02/04 03:03 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

they still have yet to locate the "executive" area of the brain. Not to mention long-term memory storage.

Obviously you aren't very familiar with the concept of the parallel distributed processor...


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2294502 - 02/02/04 03:21 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Yep, and it's like they say, there are 10 kinds of people in the world, those that understand binary, and those that don't. :lol:


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----

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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2294610 - 02/02/04 03:54 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: trendal]
    #2294620 - 02/02/04 03:57 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2294656 - 02/02/04 04:07 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I was responding to "'Where did Al go?' The same 'place' that the music went to."

Well the music stayed right on the medium it was playing from, awaiting another push of the button to continue its journey or start over :wink:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2294658 - 02/02/04 04:07 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

lol. hey I like your base 10 post. I disagree with you about base ten being perfect though and you'll see why.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2294671 - 02/02/04 04:10 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

No one has evidence yet that leads us to conclude the brain is a sufficient condition for consciousness

the brain isn't a "sufficient condition" for consciousness!?

go and get yourself a lobotomy.
no brain = no consciousness.
what more evidence do you need?

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Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2294715 - 02/02/04 04:20 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

A body without the brain is like a radio wi thout a tuner.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2294723 - 02/02/04 04:22 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2294744 - 02/02/04 04:28 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

well in that case,
asking for evidence of "sufficient conditions" is like asking to prove a negative.

oh and does anyone know what "opposite" means. it's not a philosophical term.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2294784 - 02/02/04 04:37 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

No one has evidence yet that leads us to conclude the brain is a sufficient condition for consciousness

so what?
no one has evidence yet that leads us to conclude that the components in my computer are "sufficient conditions" for it's function. there might be "somthing else" going on there... :rolleyes:

once again, if you're proposing some other mechanism at work here, the burden of proof is on you.

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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2294789 - 02/02/04 04:39 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2294797 - 02/02/04 04:42 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

open minded inquiry

:thumbup:

/puts hands over ears

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Offlineska8ball
anaxagoras
Registered: 03/19/03
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2294912 - 02/02/04 05:29 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Rather than asking "where is that sound coming from?" ask yourself, "where is the sound itself?" The difference is that the sound maybe be coming from a speaker but the thing we actually define as sound is a product of the mind.

what im trying to say is that what we define as sound is not the physical sound waves but our perception of themt, therefore the music itself is nothing physical. Daddy where did the music go? The music was not in a 'place' to begin with. Maybe this is a foolish argument but id like to put it out

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2294918 - 02/02/04 05:33 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Anyone who has really experienced hyper-conciousness will know that purple does have a sound, in fact there are whole tonal arrangements covering the spectum of purpleness. Or perhaps it is the other way around, when one emits the sound that corresponds, purple will be the manifest colour.
I think swami may be right in that we don't exist as our same self after death, or before the cumilative emergent factors combine to form the first breath of personality. However the map of energies that combine to make us a person come and then go from this ontological make-up, and once the make up is washed away to reveal our true face then our conciousness bridges time and we can always see that person forever locked in time, and all our other selves spread across time. That's when we probably smoke a phat celestial reefer and have a good chuckle before taking another dip in the pool, experiencing the myriad wonder of this alien technology we call life.
Life is illogical - therefore trying to use logic to decypher it is even more illogical! What does that mean?

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OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2294945 - 02/02/04 05:48 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
Do universals exist? (Anyone) 




Yes.  All dogs go to heaven.  Every good boy deserves fudge.  :lol:

Seriously, I believe in universal good and evil, and I believe there are universal ethics.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2294991 - 02/02/04 06:09 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Obviously you aren't very familiar with the concept of the parallel distributed processor...




well, i fuckin better be!

yeah, I know.  "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts"

but its still just a theory.  very little is actually known about the brain.

EDIT: BTW, Sclorch, just because someone doesnt subscribe to something, does that necessarily mean they arent familiar with it? Like, for instnace, i know you are not a Christian, so I guess that means (by your logic) that you are not at all familiar with christianity.  that must be really confusing for you around christmas :lol:

Edited by DoctorJ (02/02/04 07:01 PM)

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2295135 - 02/02/04 07:11 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Man made something universal when he jumped to the next grain of sand in the ocean of the universe.
How can we claim our ideals as universal, just to make them absolute ?

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: MAIA]
    #2295549 - 02/02/04 08:53 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: MAIA]
    #2295563 - 02/02/04 08:57 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

To no one in particular:

OK, no more deep threads for you guys. I'll go back to "light & fluffy" unless someone can (attempt to) answer when Al "became" Al.  :tongue:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2295589 - 02/02/04 09:04 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Al became Al when Al assumed the role of acting what Al thought an Al should be.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2295590 - 02/02/04 09:05 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
A universal is a class or kind of thing. Dog, table, chair, are all universals.



Oh, so that's what you meant.

Quote:

Do universals exist?



Yes, as concepts (but that's probably not what you meant by 'exist').


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2295592 - 02/02/04 09:05 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Al was Al before he incarnated into that recent life form, and Al was Al when that life form ended.  Al is still Al.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Frog]
    #2295617 - 02/02/04 09:15 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds like he is a personal friend of yours.  :grin:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: psyka]
    #2295620 - 02/02/04 09:16 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Good answer! B+. Not sure what the hell it means, but it sure sounds profound.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2295711 - 02/02/04 09:48 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Hahaha I'm sure it was profound, too  :confused: :shocked: :thumbup: :confused: :grin:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2295776 - 02/02/04 10:12 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

al became al through a process of forgeting who al really is: a unique strain of consciousness which is the driving force behind several lives, all of which are karmicly inter-related. 

but thats just me and I could be wrong :smile:

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2295801 - 02/02/04 10:18 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, but assuming that is true, you are starting in the middle. Go back to the very beginning...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2295807 - 02/02/04 10:21 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

dont read ahead in the book.  it makes the other students feel bad :lol:

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Invisiblebert
bodhi

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2295836 - 02/02/04 10:33 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Al exists as a subjective thing until he has his first thought at which point Al becomes Al objectively. Al thinks therefore he is...Al?


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2295843 - 02/02/04 10:38 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Oh, okay! Now I remember who "Al" was! He was the bail bondsman who worked in the same building where I rented an office, and he spoke slower than any human being I ever met!

When Al spoke, you had to first find a comfy chair in which to position your butt, because you were going to be listening for a long fuckin' time.

And Al knew everything. Geez! Not only did he speak slowly, but he knew everything about that which he was speaking, which would probably also explain why he spoke at such length! Long-winded mother-fucker, Al is. I mean, was.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: bert]
    #2295849 - 02/02/04 10:39 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.




gee, I sure am glad I bought my robot insurance! :lol:

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Offlineappreciator
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: bert]
    #2296098 - 02/03/04 12:15 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Al exists as a subjective thing until he has his first thought at which point Al becomes Al objectively. Al thinks therefore he is...Al?

Good call bert. Thats the best way I've come across to define when what grows and develops into the present day Al gains the ability to do so. Before the child's first thought, its identity is unclear.

I think this criteria poses an upper limit for when Al becomes Al, but many could rightly argue other explanations for what is taking place before this.

As was stated earlier, I don't think we will ever know the answer, at least until we die (being hopeful here.)

We are limited in this area by the simple fact that we are constrained by the system under examination. The only way to view thought is subjectively, yet if we experiment on the system we destroy the mode of observation.

In the same line of argument, even if we have a definition of Al based on his initial thought, we now need to define what counts as a thought. His first conceptualization? His first cause-effect connection? And even then, we couldn't pinpoint the exact moment, as our subject would not have the benefit of language to tell us about it.

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Offlinebom
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2296204 - 02/03/04 01:06 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

"when did Al become Al" = "where did music go"

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2296362 - 02/03/04 04:08 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Al became known as "Al" when he starred in his own show....





















































:wink:


If you want my serious answer to your question "When did 'Al' become 'Al'?"..
I'd say Al became Al as soon as he was produced by his father's testicles, into a sperm..and then Al was the fastest and thus the first 'one' that reached and fertilized the egg. Al over the course of 8 mths or so...Al became what we like to call a "baby". And so forth.
At least biologically speaking. :wink:




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Evolving]
    #2296473 - 02/03/04 05:10 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2296479 - 02/03/04 05:14 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2296496 - 02/03/04 05:23 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Al never became Al. A person's never a finished process. In a sence, the Al-sperm was Al, in the same sense the foetus that hadn't yet developed beyond the reptilian brain was Al, and the old geezer sitting in the rocking chair on his porch smoking a pipe was Al, and wasn't at the same time. Every phase in your life you're becoming more you (or less you, for some).


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2296503 - 02/03/04 05:31 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I was going to add other factors in, but decided to just leave it at that with the disclaimer stating that I'm speaking strictly biologically, and Otherwise speaking, Al became Al in a manifestation of various ways...
Al became Al as soon as his parents named him Al.
Al became Al as we know him today through the total accumulation of events that shaped who he is, as we know him.
Al became Al when the entity incarnated into the biological vessel known as "Al"...
Al is still Al...just not in this dimension anymore...except in our memories...




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2296507 - 02/03/04 05:39 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2296510 - 02/03/04 05:44 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Oh I'm well aware... :wink:




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2296515 - 02/03/04 05:53 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2296688 - 02/03/04 07:58 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Al never became Al.

So would you agree, that because of this continuum, there never was a point in time (as some theologians have tried desperately to define, but seemingly failed) where an individual spirit or soul entered this process? This is really the heart of what I am trying to get to.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (02/03/04 02:32 PM)

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2296916 - 02/03/04 09:40 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Al must have become Al when his parents named him. And I suppose he became aware he was Al when he learnt that name. The name itself would be little more than arbirary were it not for the cruel humour of children and other inferences heaped on in a lifetime of psychic soaking.
As to the individual soul - well is that like the individual blood cell in a human body?
Appreciator's got it with the system constraints. So f**k knows, but in the little peaks one gets sometimes one sees the individual locked there, the spirit coming thru into and also from Al, coursing through individuals and evolving as it encompasses greater and greater conciousness. Somehow according to higher rules, beyond the system we see, it is entering this material dimension individual in multiplicity yet bound as a whole. So don't worry you will always be there, but only in this time, the journey however goes on. God knows what fashion that takes. God knows if I can believe my own words. :heart: :heart:

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2297068 - 02/03/04 10:58 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

No, I would not agree. Do you honestly believe your thinking process, behaviors, and knowledge is really a process of chemical reactions in your brain?

If you're a programmer...think of the soul as a class object. It is an object which carries certain functions and grows more efficient as its programmed. Your ego (identity) is the program that that class object is serving.

If you're not a programmer then shit...I'm having a hard time coming up with a better analogy on what I believe a soul to be.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: psyka]
    #2297350 - 02/03/04 12:53 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

If it is a class object then it must have properties and methods....

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2297623 - 02/03/04 02:18 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
So would you agree, that because of this continuum, there never was a point in time (as some theoloians have tried desperately to define, but seemingly failed) where an individual spirit or soul entered this process? This is really the heart of what I am trying to get to.



Could you please rephrase the question, because I'm not sure whether you mean:

-"Would you agree souls don't exist?"
-"Would you agree a person doesn't have just one soul"
-"Would you agree the soul enters and leaves the human process all the time?"
-"Would you agree the soul was a part of the person all along?"
-"Would you agree the duality between body and soul is fictive, that both are one?"


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2297750 - 02/03/04 02:53 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Not sure that I can rephrase it, but I will try. Al appears to be an emergent property of a biological system. For religious and legal leaders, people have been trying to determine when a soul entered Al, who / which is actually a property of a process. My contention is this question cannot be answered because it really does not make sense.

I know all anaologies are weak, but let's try why anyway for the purpose of clarification / discussion. For the holidays, I baked some yummy cookies. A cookie is actually also a process (I will define an object as a time snapshot of process; a process frozen, if you will.)

Note: these are not really steps, but also a continuum. Step are merely a linguistic tool for ease of discussion, but are frequently mistaken for discrete processes.

1. I bought the ingredients. Is my bag full of sugar, flour, chips, etc. a cookie?

2. I mixed the ingredients. Is my bowl full of mixed sugar, flour, chips, etc. a cookie?

3. I dab the dough on a cookie sheet. Are my separated blobs of dough now cookies?

4. I put the cookie sheet in the oven. Are they now cookies? How about at 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes? When I take them out? When they cool down?

5. Maybe they aren't cookies until I taste one.

At what exact point in time does the cookie "spirit" enter this process? Slice this entire process into nanoseconds and point to the nanosecond that goop turned into cookie. It cannot be done. When does the process become an object or is the entire question seemingly linguistically logical, but philosophically meaningless?

Note to potential respondents: While I do not recommend illegal activity, you made need to smoke a phatty before tackling this.  :spliff:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2297805 - 02/03/04 03:04 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

The point where you gave it life, of course.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2297928 - 02/03/04 03:41 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

record players were replaced by 4-tracks were replaced by cassettes were replaced by CDs which are currently being replaced by mp3s. this system of change in music recording and playback must be comparative to your analogy of life because you did compare the two. certainly this phenomena factors into the equation but where and how does it fit into the human condition?

i do like your thinking though swami. i found it interesting...i like your analogy.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.

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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2298005 - 02/03/04 03:59 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

What about the obvious answer? There is no spirit, there is no essential 'Al'. There is no difference between living matter and dead matter.

If you really want a definition of life, you've got to be pragmatic about it, and there are different definitions for different needs.

Can anybody show me what the essential difference is between me and an animal? An animal and a bacteria? A bacteria and a virus? A virus and a replicating crystal? Sure, there are superficial differences, but where is the lifeforce, or the spirit, or whatever?


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2299194 - 02/03/04 11:17 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Not sure that I can rephrase it, but I will try. Al appears to be an emergent property of a biological system. For religious and legal leaders, people have been trying to determine when a soul entered Al, who / which is actually a property of a process. My contention is this question cannot be answered because it really does not make sense.

I know all anaologies are weak, but let's try why anyway for the purpose of clarification / discussion. For the holidays, I baked some yummy cookies. A cookie is actually also a process (I will define an object as a time snapshot of process; a process frozen, if you will.)

Note: these are not really steps, but also a continuum. Step are merely a linguistic tool for ease of discussion, but are frequently mistaken for discrete processes.

1. I bought the ingredients. Is my bag full of sugar, flour, chips, etc. a cookie?

2. I mixed the ingredients. Is my bowl full of mixed sugar, flour, chips, etc. a cookie?

3. I dab the dough on a cookie sheet. Are my separated blobs of dough now cookies?

4. I put the cookie sheet in the oven. Are they now cookies? How about at 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes? When I take them out? When they cool down?

5. Maybe they aren't cookies until I taste one.

At what exact point in time does the cookie "spirit" enter this process? Slice this entire process into nanoseconds and point to the nanosecond that goop turned into cookie. It cannot be done. When does the process become an object or is the entire question seemingly linguistically logical, but philosophically meaningless?

Note to potential respondents: While I do not recommend illegal activity, you made need to smoke a phatty before tackling this.  :spliff:



That's pretty much it for me.  *passes :spliff: to the right*


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Sclorch]
    #2299711 - 02/04/04 05:39 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2299726 - 02/04/04 06:05 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

you know, we're living in the Information Age, everything can and HAS been reduced to zeros and ones. sorry.
I feel sorry too. It is sad indeed to learn that you can be reduced to zeros and ones. Me and a couple of others, certainly cannot, so everything is not really the appropriate word to use there.

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2299750 - 02/04/04 06:31 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

there is an immaterial aspect to music as well, when taken as a whole, but still, it's made up of individual notes, and those notes can further be reduced to nothing more than zeros and ones.

actually it is not correct to say that any natural sound can be reduced to zeros and ones. it can only be approximated this way.

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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: raytrace]
    #2299767 - 02/04/04 06:46 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: raytrace]
    #2299840 - 02/04/04 07:53 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

so everything is not really the appropriate word to use there.

you're right. I should have said everything that can be known...

I clicked on that link..
tell me, how did that information travel from you to me?

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: raytrace]
    #2299848 - 02/04/04 07:58 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

actually it is not correct to say that any natural sound can be reduced to zeros and ones. it can only be approximated this way.

theoretically, all sound can be reduced to zeros and ones.
we run into the limitations of human hearing LONG before we run into the limitations of digital sound reproduction. even at 44khz/16bit most people can't tell the difference between real sound and reproduced sound.

what is sound?
...

you're right that analog can't be digitized with 100% accuracy.
but theoretically it can. it's just a matter of resolution and storage.

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2299900 - 02/04/04 08:20 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

tell me, how did that information travel from you to me?
it has been transformed into a series of 0s and 1s if this is where you want to get to.

we run into the limitations of human hearing LONG before we run into the limitations of digital sound reproduction. even at 44khz/16bit most people can't tell the difference between real sound and reproduced sound.

I guess this is true, yet only up to a certain degree. The human brain is quite flexible, it is adaptive. You can train your brain to recognize natural sounds by comparing them with sounds of lower resolution. Once you've learnt to clearly differentiate between them, you can increase the resolution of the artificial sounds to a higher level. By continuously repeating this process you may realize that your audio capability may be ever increasing.

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2299905 - 02/04/04 08:22 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

but theoretically it can. it's just a matter of resolution and storage.
why does it have to be theoretically like that? If the universe has a finite resolution I guess I need a proof of that.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: raytrace]
    #2299913 - 02/04/04 08:25 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

see that's the thing.

if the universe has infinite resolution, then it also has infinite storage capacity! :laugh:

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2299918 - 02/04/04 08:28 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

yet, every attempt to capture a physical phenomenon with a series of 1s and 0s will only be an approximation, cause there will always be an even deeper level.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: raytrace]
    #2299922 - 02/04/04 08:31 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

that's why I said theoretically. it's an approximation because of limited resolution and storage capacity, NOT because it's physically impossible.

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: psyka]
    #2299938 - 02/04/04 08:38 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I think swami may be putting this kind of neatly. Defining things in terms of moments does seem like a silly definition of a soul which is more fluid and changable and indefinable then a material object.
However I do believe the majority of thinking and behaviour is simply the result of chemical processes/combinations. Yet I believe those processes and combinations which manifest as behaviour etc are equally manifestations of the soul represented in material reality. i.e. To the scientist they may appear as random and soulless, but to me they are deliberate and charged with deep meaning drawn across time and here represented by the soul in this level of reality.
Alan Stone hits the nail on the head for me with:
Would you agree the duality between body and soul is fictive, that both are one?"
Things are not truly divided - and all are one. Monkey vocal chords and the average monkey brain have difficulty with that.

We are living in the soul, material things are part of the soul, and the ego is the soul too. The soul is exploring itself. Having a laugh it would seem.

I'm new here and I don't know what I'm talking about, but I love to speculate. The vastness of the imagination excites and enthralls me, and I believe if it can be imagined it is somehow real in some dimension. well I can't put it in English very well, but the patterns and images in my brain somehow fuse, and yet have separate identities too. It's amazing!
:heart:

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2299950 - 02/04/04 08:43 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

well, yes alright, it is physically possible, in fact the universe is doing this all the time (but that does not mean we can artificially reproduce it - capture it in its entirety).

my point was that you cannot claim that a natural sound can be reduced to a train of 1 and 0. and this applies to what we perceive through all our senses.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2299960 - 02/04/04 08:47 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

You know, Swami, your cookie analogy seems to really back up a lot of what Ped says and that really makes sense to me, and I find this intriguing in the extreme.

Its obvious that there isn't any moment that the cookie becomes a cookie, and that there is no time that it is actually a cookie. Like you said, it is all a process, everything is changing, once this "cookie" is injested and it breaks down in my digestive system, is it still a cookie then? :wink:

Maybe our way of perceiving "reality" is causing so many problems of perspective because it isn't looking at life from the right angle? Life is basically an extremely complex flow of energy... in this vein of flow that we are in, at this perspective, things appear so stable and evolved, so set in stone, but there is no permanent form..... the concept is more of an image type thing.....

Whoa, I started conceptualizing something else there. Um.. what's this thread about? :grin:

If this is a debate over when the soul enters the human, or whatever, or if that is the example being used to carry that concept, well, it doesn't work like that. I see the energy that sustains life as being the soul... all is life and has always had soul. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: raytrace]
    #2299973 - 02/04/04 08:53 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Well if you were 'god' and you had a super-super-digitiser you may be able to produce sounds so accurately comoposed of 1's and 0's that it is actually the real thing. Reality is patterned, even what we percieve as analog, is it really analog or 'super-super' (god)digital format?
Even when one rips a leaf that has fallen in autumn, even tho the human mind can't see an obvious pattern, the edge of the rip follows molecular boundries and hence a pattern.

Perhaps the soul is made of 1's and 0's with an extra dimensional aspect (1squared and 0squared - somehow, in (at this point) some humanly indefinable way??).......?????????

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: raytrace]
    #2299979 - 02/04/04 08:54 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

well there's really no way to know for certain.
we could all be living in a computer simulation right now and all natural sounds are already being reproduced using zeros and ones. there's no way to know...
and btw, there are "practical" limits to resolution, like planck's length. sure, there can be something smaller... but it's all guesswork at that level. I would guess that the universe does indeed have infinite resolution, so it would be impossible to reduce the whole universe to zeros and ones, but I'm pretty sure that the sum of human knowledge and experience (i.e. things that can be known) can be reduced in that way. the fact that we're having this conversation, discussing such vague, immaterial concepts in a digital medium should tell you something.

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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2300084 - 02/04/04 09:51 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

(I am addressing also CJay in the second quote)


well there's really no way to know for certain
that's why I want to keep the possibilities of what I am and what the universe is: open


we could all be living in a computer simulation right now and all natural sounds are already being reproduced using zeros and ones.
I am well passed the simulation thing, it?s just a trend. As you said we live in the information age, people are too excited with computers and they push it too far. But, I think that?s all


I'm pretty sure that the sum of human knowledge and experience (i.e. things that can be known) can be reduced in that way
This is probably a temporary limit (like a local maximum) for the depiction of human knowledge. However, I think experience is well beyond 1s and 0s, I think it is beyond information itself.


the fact that we're having this conversation, discussing such vague, immaterial concepts in a digital medium should tell you something
it tells me that it is a relatively effective means of communication, with the potential to get a lot better. You can pass lots of descriptions and approximations (in a rather awkward way as it is right now), but not the real thing.

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: raytrace]
    #2301102 - 02/04/04 02:06 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

seen

I think it is all and more. Everything everyone has said and more. If one can imagine it it must be within the possibilities of The Everything, and every Whatnot.

1's and 0's are not real experience, they are simply a metaphor. Maybe we can push on to a better one?

I think one can only ever shave close to the answer to this type of enquiry with monkey linguistics limititations. Only travel at a tangent, but how close can we get?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2301784 - 02/04/04 04:49 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

At what exact point in time does the cookie "spirit" enter this process?




The cookie spirit entered the process the moment somebody baked one of those delicious treats and called it a cookie!

So maybe the spirit of your cookies entered the process the nano second you decided to bake them?

Anyway as the theologians cant really agree on a definition of soul, perhaps they are getting ahead of themselves trying to work out when this thing they cant actually define came into existence!


Just an idea!

Peace

and a biggity bad boy big up to the cjay!


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: raytrace]
    #2301889 - 02/04/04 05:30 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

it's not just a trend. the concept is actually pretty old.

the simulation argument is just the latest manifestation of an old concept.

http://www.shroomery.org/archives/showfl...amp;o=&vc=1

the fact that it's even remotely possible means that all of human experience can be encoded in binary (though I admit this is not very likely)


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2302098 - 02/04/04 06:18 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
At what exact point in time does the cookie "spirit" enter this process? Slice this entire process into nanoseconds and point to the nanosecond that goop turned into cookie. It cannot be done. When does the process become an object or is the entire question seemingly linguistically logical, but philosophically meaningless?




It's not only linguistically correct, it's also pragmatically correct to assume processes are objects, because we need to be able to communicate what we see to survive (if not just to keep our sanity). Philosophically, objects as static snapshots are meaningless.
However, I would disagree that the soul is a property of the process. It's a sub-process, if not a totally different process that crosses the other process' path and fuses with it. The soul isn't any more static than anything else. Everything changes all the time, or rather, is in the process of changing.
So, linguistically AND philosophically, there would be grounds to ask the question when the soul merges with the body. You'd still need a solid, non-controversial definition of what a soul is, and what the body is. Just as there can be a point in time when the (cookie + spirit) union enters my stomach, there can be a point in time when a soul enters a human body. In both cases, this is the intersection of two processes.
If you say the two cases are different, the grounds can't lie in the fact they both envolve processes. Correct my if I'm wrong, I've never had a logics class.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2303860 - 02/05/04 05:58 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

If the soul outlasts the individual then it is fair to use the gameplay/simulation analogy. At least to bear it in mind.
When playing as a child with toys , or even today on a games console - the charecters are finite within their realm, however the gameplayer steps out of the characters and goes onward.
The gameplayer enjoys the individul natures of the characters. And they stem from the gameplayer. Then they receed back into the gameplayer (and or software!) at termination.

Something like that...obviously infinitely more complex as playing on a computer console already involves many contributors to the characters within the games.

Perhaps

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2303888 - 02/05/04 06:24 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

it's also pragmatically correct to assume processes are objects,




Why? Everything is in process so shouldnt we be trying to make our models and maps of the world more accurate?

Quote:

Philosophically, objects as static snapshots are meaningless.





Perhaps the branch of philosophy that cant grasp the idea of static snapshots is meaningless?

Quote:

However, I would disagree that the soul is a property of the process. It's a sub-process




Oh so you actually know what a soul is? Cool..dont keep it a secret!


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: GazzBut]
    #2303907 - 02/05/04 06:44 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

First I need to send a maximum boost to the Gazzbut! Rude and deadly every time brother!
Kool to finally be webbed up and in the zone wit' u!

Can the soul really be a subprocess? If we think/believe/specualte that the soul spans more time and information then the individual being, should not the individual be the subprocess?

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: GazzBut]
    #2306237 - 02/05/04 06:01 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SomeDo0dWho'sNameIForgotToCopysaid:
Oh so you actually know what a soul is? Cool..dont keep it a secret!!




It can easily be found in the space located between your extended fore-fingers.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


Edited by psyka (02/05/04 06:03 PM)

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OfflineMrGrib
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2306296 - 02/05/04 06:23 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

There's a pattern I've noticed in your posts and replies, it's that you seem to always approach a question or topic from a closed-minded, full-minded perspective. You can't learn new ways of thinking (from others' perspectives) until you empty out some of that old stuff first.

I'm not saying your way of thinking is invalid, because I believe everything is equally valid and invalid. Furthermore, I don't think you're wrong, because I believe everything is correct and wrong. It's all acceptable. Just different (yet an extension of the same [<->]).

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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2306307 - 02/05/04 06:26 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2307350 - 02/05/04 11:38 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

However, I would disagree that the soul is a property of the process. It's a sub-process, if not a totally different process that crosses the other process' path and fuses with it.

Here's the thing. If a process definition works fine without any etherical soul, why do you feel it must be there? If philosophically adding the soul, creates an unsolvable condundrum, doesn't that also say something quite loudly?

Seems you could play that mystery game with any given process. I throw a bowling ball down the alley which knocks over the pins (if no gutter ball  :lol:) as in accord with Newtonian physics.

(Not attemtpting a strawman here) Now someone else tells me that angels swoop down and quickly scatter the pins when the ball is within a nanometer of the pins and that no real contact is made. I would ask the same question. Why do we need to add another layer of mysticism when the simpler explanantion works perfectly fine.

Have you ever heard of the Winchester Mystery House in San Jose, CA? The lady owner, heiress to the Winchester Rifle fortune, thought that by adding more rooms to the funky mansion, the she would not die. Of course, she did die and the house has rooms going off at different angles and stairways that go nowhere.

That is how the soul arguments appear to me. One must keep adding more and more "rooms" or rules for it to be logically consistent and it never ends.

Are there indefinite souls?

Are they manufactured or splintered from God at the moment of birth, the moment of conception?

If we reincarnate and there are 6.5 billion people and only two originals...

Does a baby that dies shortly after birth go to heaven as it has never sinned? If true shouldn't we kill all newborns and thus protect them from eternal damnation (if that is your belief)?

No need to answer these in your response. Just saying that a purely bio-mechanical approach to life bypasses all such murky questions without the need for endless unanswerable debate.

Note: When I say unanswerable, I mean that there is nothing to examine that would make any two random people come to the same conclusion; NOT that one can't fabricate an answer. I further guarantee that ANY answer you come up with will create new theo-physical (just made that word up) problems.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Illogical &amp; Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2307707 - 02/06/04 05:45 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe the child wanted a response not an answer.


--------------------

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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Illogical &amp; Unanswerable Questions [Re: Ego Death]
    #2307711 - 02/06/04 05:53 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

It has too do with Bell's Theorum and non local quantum mechanics.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Dr. Leary suggests that circuit VIII is literally neuro-atomic--infra, supra and meta-physiological--a quantum model of consciousness and/or a conscious model of quantum mechanics by the turned-on physicists discussed previously (Prof. John Archibald Wheeler, Saul-Paul Sirag, Dr. Fritjof Capra, Dr. Jack Sarfatti, etc.) indicates strongly that the "atomic consciousness" first suggested by Leary in "The Seven Tongues of God" (1962) is the explanatory link which will unite parapsychology and paraphysics into the first scientific empirical experimental theology in history.

When the nervous system is turned on to this quantum-level circuit, space-time is obliterated. Einstein's speed-of-light barrier is transcended; in Dr. Sarfatti's metaphor, we escape "electromagnetic chauvinism." The contelligence within the quantum projection booth IS the entire cosmic "brain," just as the micro-miniaturized DNA helix IS the local brain guiding planetary evolution. As Lao-tse said from his own Circuit VIII perspective, "The greatest is within the smallest."

Edited by Earth_Droid (02/06/04 05:54 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #2307799 - 02/06/04 07:28 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Illogical &amp; Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2307851 - 02/06/04 07:50 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Are you saying that there are only physical manifestations of ourselves, and not spiritual manifestations? If you stay focused on the fact that there is only the "physical", you will never discover whether there exists the "spiritual".

If physicists and astronomers had limited themselves to only what they could physically measure, they would never have discovered subatomic worm-holes, dark matter or anti-matter.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: GazzBut]
    #2309978 - 02/06/04 08:04 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

it's also pragmatically correct to assume processes are objects,




Why? Everything is in process so shouldnt we be trying to make our models and maps of the world more accurate?



I never said we shouldn't. For it to be pragmatically correct would only require that it works to explain reality as it appears to us.

Quote:

Perhaps the branch of philosophy that cant grasp the idea of static snapshots is meaningless?



Please point me towards the branch that can't graps this concept. I'm saying that if everything is a process, a single step is philosophically meaningless to determine what the process is about, a snapshot being a single step.

Quote:

Oh so you actually know what a soul is? Cool..dont keep it a secret!



I used my own definition, as a lot of people would use their own definition of a chair when asked to explain what a chair is.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2309981 - 02/06/04 08:06 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
Since you weren't corrected I have to assume they thought you were right.

I'll chime in though and state flat out that you were correct.

But I refuse to say why. :wink:

Nice job.  You should have studied logic.  You are a natural.

Cheers,

MM




Thanks for the kind words, mate.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2310010 - 02/06/04 08:18 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Here's the thing. If a process definition works fine without any etherical soul, why do you feel it must be there? If philosophically adding the soul, creates an unsolvable condundrum, doesn't that also say something quite loudly?



How do you figure we can explain how a human being can think without going into the fictive? Doesn't the fact we can imagine, create and think add an insoluable condundrum?

Quote:

Seems you could play that mystery game with any given process. I throw a bowling ball down the alley which knocks over the pins (if no gutter ball  :lol:) as in accord with Newtonian physics.



As I've no doubt said before: science is but one way of explaining reality. The amount of support is not a means of validating a method.

Quote:

(Not attemtpting a strawman here) Now someone else tells me that angels swoop down and quickly scatter the pins when the ball is within a nanometer of the pins and that no real contact is made. I would ask the same question. Why do we need to add another layer of mysticism when the simpler explanantion works perfectly fine.



I'll return the smartass card on this one: even with science as a method, no real contact is ever made. Atoms never really touch eachother.

Quote:

Have you ever heard of the Winchester Mystery House in San Jose, CA? The lady owner, heiress to the Winchester Rifle fortune, thought that by adding more rooms to the funky mansion, the she would not die. Of course, she did die and the house has rooms going off at different angles and stairways that go nowhere.



Since I'm European, why would I have ever heard of this?

Quote:

That is how the soul arguments appear to me. One must keep adding more and more "rooms" or rules for it to be logically consistent and it never ends.



Science can't explain human thought in four lines, either.

Quote:

Are there indefinite souls?
Are they manufactured or splintered from God at the moment of birth, the moment of conception?
If we reincarnate and there are 6.5 billion people and only two originals...



That's a lot of assumption, there, for a man so fond of skepticism. The examples mentioned here are pure speculation, nothing more. It's highly unlikely there were only two 'original humans' because that would create a lot of genetic vulnerabilities that wouldn't have allowed us to survive for the last million years.

Quote:

Does a baby that dies shortly after birth go to heaven as it has never sinned? If true shouldn't we kill all newborns and thus protect them from eternal damnation (if that is your belief)?



Ask a hardcore Christian.

Quote:

No need to answer these in your response. Just saying that a purely bio-mechanical approach to life bypasses all such murky questions without the need for endless unanswerable debate.



A purely bio-mechanical approach to life bypasses all great questions, not just ones about the soul. If you regard life from this viewpoint, shouldn't you be wondering what the hell you're doing in the S&P forum?

Quote:

Note: When I say unanswerable, I mean that there is nothing to examine that would make any two random people come to the same conclusion; NOT that one can't fabricate an answer. I further guarantee that ANY answer you come up with will create new theo-physical (just made that word up) problems.



Is there any one question that will be answered the same by two random people (and by random I mean from any given time, any given social situation and any race)?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Anonymous

Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2310035 - 02/06/04 08:27 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2310968 - 02/07/04 03:57 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Stone said:
Thanks for the kind words, mate.




I woke up this morning and when I was getting dressed, and for some reason the lines "Find your soul, mate", and then the other guy says "Find my soulmate?" And the first guy goes "No, find your soul, mate".  :nut:

Anyways, I find out it intriguing to find you using "mate" in a post where the soul has been talked about.... just thought I would mention that to prove my insanity....

This thread has been a good one.  :thumbup:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2311725 - 02/07/04 01:13 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

:grin:


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2312224 - 02/07/04 04:13 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I seriously wouldn't be lying if I said that I was talking to my girlfriend in MSN right now, and I was also browing S and P, and I had just clicked the link after seeing you had replied, and as it was loading I went back to the conversation, and she had called me her soul mate...  :shocked:  :eek:

These synchronsities are starting to grab me and spin me around. It is very insane. :nut:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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