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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: raytrace]
    #2301102 -

seen

I think it is all and more. Everything everyone has said and more. If one can imagine it it must be within the possibilities of The Everything, and every Whatnot.

1's and 0's are not real experience, they are simply a metaphor. Maybe we can push on to a better one?

I think one can only ever shave close to the answer to this type of enquiry with monkey linguistics limititations. Only travel at a tangent, but how close can we get?


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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2301784 -

Quote:

At what exact point in time does the cookie "spirit" enter this process?



The cookie spirit entered the process the moment somebody baked one of those delicious treats and called it a cookie!

So maybe the spirit of your cookies entered the process the nano second you decided to bake them?

Anyway as the theologians cant really agree on a definition of soul, perhaps they are getting ahead of themselves trying to work out when this thing they cant actually define came into existence!


Just an idea!

Peace

and a biggity bad boy big up to the cjay!


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: raytrace]
    #2301889 -

it's not just a trend. the concept is actually pretty old.

the simulation argument is just the latest manifestation of an old concept.

http://www.shroomery.org/archives/showfl...amp;o=&vc=1

the fact that it's even remotely possible means that all of human experience can be encoded in binary (though I admit this is not very likely)


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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2302098 -

Quote:

Swami said:
At what exact point in time does the cookie "spirit" enter this process? Slice this entire process into nanoseconds and point to the nanosecond that goop turned into cookie. It cannot be done. When does the process become an object or is the entire question seemingly linguistically logical, but philosophically meaningless?



It's not only linguistically correct, it's also pragmatically correct to assume processes are objects, because we need to be able to communicate what we see to survive (if not just to keep our sanity). Philosophically, objects as static snapshots are meaningless.
However, I would disagree that the soul is a property of the process. It's a sub-process, if not a totally different process that crosses the other process' path and fuses with it. The soul isn't any more static than anything else. Everything changes all the time, or rather, is in the process of changing.
So, linguistically AND philosophically, there would be grounds to ask the question when the soul merges with the body. You'd still need a solid, non-controversial definition of what a soul is, and what the body is. Just as there can be a point in time when the (cookie + spirit) union enters my stomach, there can be a point in time when a soul enters a human body. In both cases, this is the intersection of two processes.
If you say the two cases are different, the grounds can't lie in the fact they both envolve processes. Correct my if I'm wrong, I've never had a logics class.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2303860 -

If the soul outlasts the individual then it is fair to use the gameplay/simulation analogy. At least to bear it in mind.
When playing as a child with toys , or even today on a games console - the charecters are finite within their realm, however the gameplayer steps out of the characters and goes onward.
The gameplayer enjoys the individul natures of the characters. And they stem from the gameplayer. Then they receed back into the gameplayer (and or software!) at termination.

Something like that...obviously infinitely more complex as playing on a computer console already involves many contributors to the characters within the games.

Perhaps

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2303888 -

Quote:

it's also pragmatically correct to assume processes are objects,



Why? Everything is in process so shouldnt we be trying to make our models and maps of the world more accurate?

Quote:

Philosophically, objects as static snapshots are meaningless.




Perhaps the branch of philosophy that cant grasp the idea of static snapshots is meaningless?

Quote:

However, I would disagree that the soul is a property of the process. It's a sub-process



Oh so you actually know what a soul is? Cool..dont keep it a secret!


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: GazzBut]
    #2303907 -

First I need to send a maximum boost to the Gazzbut! Rude and deadly every time brother!
Kool to finally be webbed up and in the zone wit' u!

Can the soul really be a subprocess? If we think/believe/specualte that the soul spans more time and information then the individual being, should not the individual be the subprocess?

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: GazzBut]
    #2306237 -

Quote:

SomeDo0dWho'sNameIForgotToCopysaid:
Oh so you actually know what a soul is? Cool..dont keep it a secret!!



It can easily be found in the space located between your extended fore-fingers.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

Edited by psyka (02/05/04 06:03 PM)

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2306296 -

There's a pattern I've noticed in your posts and replies, it's that you seem to always approach a question or topic from a closed-minded, full-minded perspective. You can't learn new ways of thinking (from others' perspectives) until you empty out some of that old stuff first.

I'm not saying your way of thinking is invalid, because I believe everything is equally valid and invalid. Furthermore, I don't think you're wrong, because I believe everything is correct and wrong. It's all acceptable. Just different (yet an extension of the same [<->]).

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2306307 -

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2307350 -

However, I would disagree that the soul is a property of the process. It's a sub-process, if not a totally different process that crosses the other process' path and fuses with it.

Here's the thing. If a process definition works fine without any etherical soul, why do you feel it must be there? If philosophically adding the soul, creates an unsolvable condundrum, doesn't that also say something quite loudly?

Seems you could play that mystery game with any given process. I throw a bowling ball down the alley which knocks over the pins (if no gutter ball  :lol:) as in accord with Newtonian physics.

(Not attemtpting a strawman here) Now someone else tells me that angels swoop down and quickly scatter the pins when the ball is within a nanometer of the pins and that no real contact is made. I would ask the same question. Why do we need to add another layer of mysticism when the simpler explanantion works perfectly fine.

Have you ever heard of the Winchester Mystery House in San Jose, CA? The lady owner, heiress to the Winchester Rifle fortune, thought that by adding more rooms to the funky mansion, the she would not die. Of course, she did die and the house has rooms going off at different angles and stairways that go nowhere.

That is how the soul arguments appear to me. One must keep adding more and more "rooms" or rules for it to be logically consistent and it never ends.

Are there indefinite souls?

Are they manufactured or splintered from God at the moment of birth, the moment of conception?

If we reincarnate and there are 6.5 billion people and only two originals...

Does a baby that dies shortly after birth go to heaven as it has never sinned? If true shouldn't we kill all newborns and thus protect them from eternal damnation (if that is your belief)?

No need to answer these in your response. Just saying that a purely bio-mechanical approach to life bypasses all such murky questions without the need for endless unanswerable debate.

Note: When I say unanswerable, I mean that there is nothing to examine that would make any two random people come to the same conclusion; NOT that one can't fabricate an answer. I further guarantee that ANY answer you come up with will create new theo-physical (just made that word up) problems.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Illogical &amp; Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2307707 -

Maybe the child wanted a response not an answer.


--------------------

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Re: Illogical &amp; Unanswerable Questions [Re: Ego Death]
    #2307711 -

It has too do with Bell's Theorum and non local quantum mechanics.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Dr. Leary suggests that circuit VIII is literally neuro-atomic--infra, supra and meta-physiological--a quantum model of consciousness and/or a conscious model of quantum mechanics by the turned-on physicists discussed previously (Prof. John Archibald Wheeler, Saul-Paul Sirag, Dr. Fritjof Capra, Dr. Jack Sarfatti, etc.) indicates strongly that the "atomic consciousness" first suggested by Leary in "The Seven Tongues of God" (1962) is the explanatory link which will unite parapsychology and paraphysics into the first scientific empirical experimental theology in history.

When the nervous system is turned on to this quantum-level circuit, space-time is obliterated. Einstein's speed-of-light barrier is transcended; in Dr. Sarfatti's metaphor, we escape "electromagnetic chauvinism." The contelligence within the quantum projection booth IS the entire cosmic "brain," just as the micro-miniaturized DNA helix IS the local brain guiding planetary evolution. As Lao-tse said from his own Circuit VIII perspective, "The greatest is within the smallest."

Edited by Earth_Droid (02/06/04 05:54 AM)

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #2307799 -

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

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Re: Illogical &amp; Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2307851 -

Are you saying that there are only physical manifestations of ourselves, and not spiritual manifestations? If you stay focused on the fact that there is only the "physical", you will never discover whether there exists the "spiritual".

If physicists and astronomers had limited themselves to only what they could physically measure, they would never have discovered subatomic worm-holes, dark matter or anti-matter.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: GazzBut]
    #2309978 -

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

it's also pragmatically correct to assume processes are objects,



Why? Everything is in process so shouldnt we be trying to make our models and maps of the world more accurate?


I never said we shouldn't. For it to be pragmatically correct would only require that it works to explain reality as it appears to us.

Quote:

Perhaps the branch of philosophy that cant grasp the idea of static snapshots is meaningless?


Please point me towards the branch that can't graps this concept. I'm saying that if everything is a process, a single step is philosophically meaningless to determine what the process is about, a snapshot being a single step.

Quote:

Oh so you actually know what a soul is? Cool..dont keep it a secret!


I used my own definition, as a lot of people would use their own definition of a chair when asked to explain what a chair is.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: ]
    #2309981 -

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
Since you weren't corrected I have to assume they thought you were right.

I'll chime in though and state flat out that you were correct.

But I refuse to say why. :wink:

Nice job.  You should have studied logic.  You are a natural.

Cheers,

MM



Thanks for the kind words, mate.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Swami]
    #2310010 -

Quote:

Swami said:
Here's the thing. If a process definition works fine without any etherical soul, why do you feel it must be there? If philosophically adding the soul, creates an unsolvable condundrum, doesn't that also say something quite loudly?


How do you figure we can explain how a human being can think without going into the fictive? Doesn't the fact we can imagine, create and think add an insoluable condundrum?

Quote:

Seems you could play that mystery game with any given process. I throw a bowling ball down the alley which knocks over the pins (if no gutter ball  :lol:) as in accord with Newtonian physics.


As I've no doubt said before: science is but one way of explaining reality. The amount of support is not a means of validating a method.

Quote:

(Not attemtpting a strawman here) Now someone else tells me that angels swoop down and quickly scatter the pins when the ball is within a nanometer of the pins and that no real contact is made. I would ask the same question. Why do we need to add another layer of mysticism when the simpler explanantion works perfectly fine.


I'll return the smartass card on this one: even with science as a method, no real contact is ever made. Atoms never really touch eachother.

Quote:

Have you ever heard of the Winchester Mystery House in San Jose, CA? The lady owner, heiress to the Winchester Rifle fortune, thought that by adding more rooms to the funky mansion, the she would not die. Of course, she did die and the house has rooms going off at different angles and stairways that go nowhere.


Since I'm European, why would I have ever heard of this?

Quote:

That is how the soul arguments appear to me. One must keep adding more and more "rooms" or rules for it to be logically consistent and it never ends.


Science can't explain human thought in four lines, either.

Quote:

Are there indefinite souls?
Are they manufactured or splintered from God at the moment of birth, the moment of conception?
If we reincarnate and there are 6.5 billion people and only two originals...


That's a lot of assumption, there, for a man so fond of skepticism. The examples mentioned here are pure speculation, nothing more. It's highly unlikely there were only two 'original humans' because that would create a lot of genetic vulnerabilities that wouldn't have allowed us to survive for the last million years.

Quote:

Does a baby that dies shortly after birth go to heaven as it has never sinned? If true shouldn't we kill all newborns and thus protect them from eternal damnation (if that is your belief)?


Ask a hardcore Christian.

Quote:

No need to answer these in your response. Just saying that a purely bio-mechanical approach to life bypasses all such murky questions without the need for endless unanswerable debate.


A purely bio-mechanical approach to life bypasses all great questions, not just ones about the soul. If you regard life from this viewpoint, shouldn't you be wondering what the hell you're doing in the S&P forum?

Quote:

Note: When I say unanswerable, I mean that there is nothing to examine that would make any two random people come to the same conclusion; NOT that one can't fabricate an answer. I further guarantee that ANY answer you come up with will create new theo-physical (just made that word up) problems.


Is there any one question that will be answered the same by two random people (and by random I mean from any given time, any given social situation and any race)?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2310035 -

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

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Re: Illogical & Unanswerable Questions [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2310968 -

Quote:

Alan Stone said:
Thanks for the kind words, mate.



I woke up this morning and when I was getting dressed, and for some reason the lines "Find your soul, mate", and then the other guy says "Find my soulmate?" And the first guy goes "No, find your soul, mate".  :nut:

Anyways, I find out it intriguing to find you using "mate" in a post where the soul has been talked about.... just thought I would mention that to prove my insanity....

This thread has been a good one.  :thumbup:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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