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Anonymous

How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans
    #2293509 - 02/02/04 09:30 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

How hard is it. I have mastered cubes without a prob and I know you grow Pans about the same way. Is it that much harder and also what should I do differnt when growing pan cyans? Thank you for your help


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InvisibleSemilanceata
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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: fee] * 1
    #2293522 - 02/02/04 09:44 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I?ve read that?s it?s harder cause mycellium is more sensitive to contams and the environmental conditions need to be very accurate. But you know, I?m where you are right now: reading and learning

Take a look here: http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/23954

And gook luck my man.


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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: Semilanceata]
    #2293629 - 02/02/04 10:40 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

im in the same place.....cool thread.


--------------------
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Look at how the time goes past.
But I'm all alone at last.
Rolling home to you.


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Anonymous

Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: fee]
    #2298663 - 02/03/04 09:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Easiest method is to sterilize a mixture of manure and vermiculite/perlite/ryegrass seed in a jar. Inoculate. Let colonize completely. Lay this out in a very small tray, 8x8 brownie tray with lid. Allow to recover for 48 hours. Case with a very thin layer of casing soil(less then 1/4 inch). The vermiculite holds water. Perlite holds alittle, but adds good fluff, and the ryegrass seed does both. You can pick only one to mix with the manure, or use them all. BRF is not neccessary to add to the manure mix, but it works with it.

Contamination is the problem with pans. If you can get clean spawn there is no problem fruiting this way. Using the jars to spawn more substrate just makes it more risky, but not impossible.

As far as actually fruiting them. A simple clear rubbermaid with a lid can house the casings. Mist daily up to the first sign of pins. Usually a single button will appear first. Stop misting at this point, and don't mist the casing again till you have harvested the fruits. As far as fanning goes. Fan up to the point you see a pin, then stop fanning until the rest of the buttons form. Then start fanning again. The easiest and best thing you can do once you have buttons all over the casing, IS TO LEAVE THE LID PARTIALLY OPEN. Turn it so you have a openning at opposite corners. This allows for a very RAPID evaporation rate, wich will devlope the mushrooms.

Keeping the lid closed will cause the mushrooms to either abort, or grow tall and spindly. Allowing a more rapid rate of evaporation keeps them shorter and thicker. DO NOT OPEN THE LID SO MUCH THAT THE CASING GOES DRY INSTANTLY. Just enough that you can mature the flush. Then Bring the moisture content of the casing back up prior to the second flush developing.

Every time you mist Pans directly a percentage of them will abort. So try and have the casing at the right moisture level before any buttons for.

This is a very low tek, but easy way to do Pans/Copelandias. I use no automated fanning, humidity, etc... Fanning with a paper plate, and leaving the lid slightly off, is all that is required.

THE MOSt IMPORTANT THING ABOUT SPAWN RUNS In THE JARS is to use less substrate within the jar. If you are using quart jars, only fill them with one to one and a half cups of substrate prior to cooking. You don't want the jars more then half full after cooking. Cook for 90 minutes at 15 psi just to be safe. Make sure your inoculum is clean wether spores or agr wedges. You can shake the jars when there is a half dololar worth of growth, and then try not to shake them any more. Don't over incubate in the jar.

Filter patches on the jars makes things happen alot faster, and healthier.

Good luck, they really aren't that hard.

Store bought composts yield less then field picked manure. UNLESS YOU CAN BUY JUST MANURE. I haven't found any in FLORIDA that is just manure.


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Anonymous

Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: fee]
    #2298684 - 02/03/04 09:07 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

With all that aside. If you can't maintain a temperature above 70 F in the fruiting chamber, you are going to have troubles. 80 F is where you want them.


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Anonymous

Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: ] * 1
    #2298713 - 02/03/04 09:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

is 86 good?


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Anonymous

Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: fee]
    #2301399 - 02/04/04 05:07 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I had no problems with heat, only cold. 86 F will make things develope real fast if the evaporation rate is right. Your finished product will dry up to very low weight at that high of temps. Temps at the low end of the range produce better quality fruits, but at a slower rate.


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Invisiblesimplemachine
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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: ]
    #2301701 - 02/04/04 06:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

cool teonan thanks for the info! Are there any methods for cultivating this mushroom that can be done WITHOUT a pc?


SM


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: simplemachine]
    #2301716 - 02/04/04 06:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You could start some pf style jars... and spawn them to pasturized poo/straw


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Invisiblesimplemachine
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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: Rose]
    #2301732 - 02/04/04 06:33 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

thats what I'm thinking cervates, but I want to see if anyone else has done it first!;) My other idea is to make pf jars with poop in them. There is a reference to this in the FAQ, if anyone knows more hook me up.


SM


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: simplemachine]
    #2301741 - 02/04/04 06:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: OldSpice]
    #2301754 - 02/04/04 06:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I may be wrong, but I think they will colonize a modified pf jar... use wbs flour or millet flour instead of brf.

Although, I bet they would colonize brf too... you just need more than brf to get 'em to fruit.


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Invisiblesimplemachine
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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: Rose]
    #2301788 - 02/04/04 06:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I've heard lots of stories about pan cyan in pf jars using BRF or millet, as teonan said the key seems to be not to give them much substrate to colonize. the nook has a buncha posts about it, but I wanted to see what the shroomerites thought.

My third idea is a jar of verm/worm castings spawned with agar grown wedges.

so whuddya think?


SM


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Anonymous

Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: simplemachine]
    #2304101 - 02/05/04 11:09 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I have never done a PF tek jar, so I don't know first hand. I can't imagine that it wouldn't work to get spawn. Any method you can use to get contaminant free spawn will work.

I just suggest adding the final substrate(manure/compost/castings) to the original jar of substrate to avoid having to spawn bulk with it.

Anything you can do to limit contamination is best.

I have also noticed no increase in yield with bulk. Yield per cup of substrate actually wen't down, total weight.

My best yields come from the manure:ryegrass seed:perlite(4:1:1). 1 cup per quart jar. 2-4 cups per casing.

I didn't like castings. It was difficult to get the moisture content right when it was used as a primary ingredient, for ME. They are expensive in my location also.


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: ]
    #2304122 - 02/05/04 11:15 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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Anonymous

Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: OldSpice]
    #2304281 - 02/05/04 12:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Copelandias like manure. Everyone seems to be focusing on the additives to the mixture. You want to use only a very small amount of ryegrassseed/millet/wbs/grain/popcorn,etc... The additive is mainly just to fluff up the manure in the jars. I found ryegrass seed to be the least prone to contaminants compared to ryegrain, wbs, and millet. In essence you can just throw out the grains and just increase the perlite/vermiculite.

I just add various grains and seeds to the manure, like i would vary the additives in a agar recipie. the ryegrass seed just worked the best for me, LEAST CONTAMINATION.


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: ]
    #2304818 - 02/05/04 02:18 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: ]
    #2305292 - 02/05/04 04:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

So just add course verm to manure to make a good substrate for Pan Cyans?

I'm thinking of just casing the half pint jars once colonization is complete so as not to disturb the mycelia. In effect making mini casings like I have done with some p. cubensis jars. It's working great for them and colonization of the casing layer is quick.

At any rate I need to have my substrate figured out soon as I already have spores germinating on agar.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Anonymous

Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: OldSpice]
    #2305795 - 02/05/04 05:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Any manure will do. If you have trouble with contamination, go for the cow poo.


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Anonymous

Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: Ekstaza] * 1
    #2305849 - 02/05/04 05:53 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Yes just vermiculite mixed with poo. Brought up to field capacity moisture content. Loaded in jars. Pressure cooked for 90 minutes at 15 psi, and inoculated with spore or mycelium.

DON"T LOAD JARS FULL. You wan't the jar to be only half full after cooking. This makes it shake easier. Filter patches really increase your success rate with Exotic mycelium, non- cubensis. They help anyways.

Fruitng directly in jars can be problematic with copelandias. To do it, you would have to have the substrate almost to the top of the jar. This makes getting clean spawn more difficult. If you case a half full jar, it will be too humid in the jar for the shrooms to develope good.
Cubensis fruits great in the jar.

If you get clean enough spawn to fruit in the jar, you have clean enough spawn to lay out in a tray and fruit. Just don't spawn to more substrate.


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: ]
    #2306264 - 02/05/04 08:11 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: ]
    #2306548 - 02/05/04 09:48 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I had planned to fill the jars up to about 1/4-1/2" to the top. Then after full colonization, the casing layer would fill the rest of that empty space. I hadn't thought of shaking the jars at all, being as how they would half pints. Colonization should be relatively quick since I'm inoculating with an agar wedge instead of multispore injection.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2307587 - 02/06/04 04:51 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

quick ?, how long does a multispore inoculation usually take to germinate with this species?
just nocked up (like 10 mins ago) 3 1/2 pints of
25% pre soaked for 24hr grain mix (pop corn, milliet, wheat)
75% moist verm/poo mix. all was mixed well and loaded into jars 2 were loaded full then a dry verm layer was added. the 3rd one was laoded 1/2 way and fit with a tyvek fillter. PC-ed @15 60mins.
not planing on much succes just want to know when would be the best time to check for germination.


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: MESCALATO]
    #2307742 - 02/06/04 08:45 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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InvisibleMESCALATO
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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: OldSpice]
    #2307744 - 02/06/04 08:46 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

thank ya paw paw.


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Anonymous

Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: OldSpice]
    #2308284 - 02/06/04 12:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

just use a very thin layer of casing soil.


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Anonymous

Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2308293 - 02/06/04 01:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I never use anything smaller then a quart jar. I have found that even with presoaking seed/grain, it is not completely uniform in moisture. certain areas of the jar will colonize better then others, so a shake at day 5 helps me.

Colonization is 5-14 days in quarts.

Germination is as little as 2 days, and as much as 2 weeks depending on the age of the spores. 3 days sounds about average for fresh spores that are hydrated.


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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: ]
    #2309254 - 02/06/04 06:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I was under the impression that pan. cyanescens mycelium was more fragile than p. cubensis and therefore should not be shaken. It sounds like you have experience with this species. I'll go with a grain/poo shakeable substrate if you say that shaking does not damage the mycelium.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Anonymous

Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2309671 - 02/06/04 08:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I have had some problems with shaking.  But in retrospect, they may have just been contaminated. I still am nervous ever time I shake them now, so I shake them once when they show about a half dollar size area of growth.  I shake them once when they are completely colonized to be able to lay it out for casing. I have had no problems since then from shaking. 

It ain't cubensis mycelium though, you got to be gentle.  Shake it like you would shake a girls hand, not like you are jerking off. :tongue:


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OfflineMike Elium
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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: ]
    #2311188 - 02/07/04 10:35 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Teonan
With your level of expertise, I certainly believe you that your Pan method works great. I'm just trying to understand it in comparison to the "usual" method of spawing colonized grain to pasterized compost or manure. Presumably that "usual" method leaves some beneficial organisms in the pasteurized compost which stop contams from taking hold, while the myc proceeds to colonize it. This, in contrast to your method where the compost or manure is completely sterilized, and allows the myc to fully colonize it, then is cased. Could you please clarify why this second method works better for Pans.... am trying to understand, to try them with the best method. Thanks

-Mike Elium


--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.


Edited by Mike Elium (02/07/04 10:55 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: Mike Elium]
    #2312814 - 02/07/04 09:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

This method works best for me in my environment after experimenting with 17 DIFFERENT STRAINS of Copelandia cyanescens on each of the substrates I have heard mentioned here.

I have only tried cultivation in the STATE of FLORIDA, and I can tell you this about south florida in particular, WE DO NOT HAVE A MOLD SEASON, we have MOLD.  Unless you are equiped with a CONTROLLED ENVIRONEMNT for all stages of growth, filtered air, you will learn to identify MOLDS.

I do not HAVE that controlled environmnet.

You can sing me the virtues of beneficial microbes all you want.  Everything contaminates here.  Adding steps, which in the end do not increase the YIELD per CUP of substrate, only increases the chance for contamination to set in.

If you are one of the lucky ones who visit these boards who NEVER EVER GETS CONTAMINATION, Jah bless.

The method above will allow you to get a reasonable success rate with the least effort, in the dirtiest of environemnts.  In the least amount of time.  No other method I tried produced consistent yields, and low contamination rates.

Now if I had a commercial grow op, I AM CERTAIN THAT VERY DEEP LARGE BULK CASINGS WOULD BE IN ORDER. And my contamination rate would be even lower, and my yields substantially higher :rolleyes:

Adding steps increases contamination.
Pasteurized compost does contaminate.  Any single species of mushroom can only digest a fraction of the usable nutrition in any substrate, any contaminant present or introduced will use it's usable portion to take hold. Unless the mushroom colonizing the majority of the substrate secrets some inhibitory chemicals that prevent any other organism from growing.  The most resistant one I saw was P. semperviva.  It to eventually succombed to contamination.

Proper Sterilization Excludes contaminants, but does not stop introduction after sterilization.

Most of the failure I have seen on this board was contaminated spawn. So suggesting adding yet another vegetative stage, via bulk spawning, seemed counter productive.

The larger the portion of non-manure ingredients in a substrate mix, the more risk of contamination with Copelandia, IME.  With the exception of relatively inert substances like vermiculite and perlite.


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OfflineMike Elium
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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: ] * 1
    #2315040 - 02/08/04 06:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Teonan,

Thanks for the very thorough clarification, makes total sense to me.

Sorry to hear about your climatic contam problem, but at the same time, your climate does produce some nice mushrooms in the wild.

Actually, I always wondered why uncolonized pasteurized compost didn't represent a high risk of contams in general cultivation, not just with Pans.

I've read a few posts commenting that Pans smell a bit rotty. Is that also your experience, and if so, how do you avoid misinterpreting this smell as a possible case of contamination?

Thanks again,

Mike Elium


--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.


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Anonymous

Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: Mike Elium]
    #2317286 - 02/09/04 12:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It does contaminate regardless of the species being grown. Once you pasteurize it, anything that gets a foothold will eat it.

If you can filter all the air that comes in contact with it, then you don't have problems. (Commercial Grow OPS for edible/medicinal mushrooms)

To me they smell fishy, Copelandias. It is a very distinct smell. It doesn't smell like bacterial contamination(sweet, apples). Molds can be identified by there different appearance. In a jar that has mostly copelandia mycelium, it will be easy to spot anything else present.

Depending on the strain, the appearance of the Copelandia mycelium is different. Some are very wispy, some are matted.

The thing I have noticed most about contamination with Pans, is it occurs first on the non-manure portion of the substrate/casing.

I assure youi the method above works best for those without HEPA filters. If you have lots of experience with bulk, and have a very low contamination rate, then go for it. Copelandia really isn't that much different then cubensis. It does succomb to contamination easier, that's all.

Outdoors is great down here climate wise, but with the beneficial climate comes MAJOR insect and competitor organisms. We really just have a continuous grow season here. There is always something for a PEST to overwinter on. You can't plant a pepper plant here without losing it to insects or disease, WITHOUT THE USE OF PESTICIDES. Organic farming here is extremely difficult. It's done, but they have to constantly spray there plants with Biological/organic pesticides.


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: ]
    #2347492 - 02/17/04 10:11 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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Invisiblesimplemachine
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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: OldSpice]
    #2347656 - 02/17/04 11:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Go paw paw! get you some! What was your poo/verm/perlite ratio?


SM


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: simplemachine]
    #2347974 - 02/18/04 12:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty


You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office:biker:


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Anonymous

Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: OldSpice]
    #2348046 - 02/18/04 12:49 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

your gonna send me a print right  :wink:
I will trade ya something


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: Anonymous]
    #2952207 - 08/01/04 04:30 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Are you PAUL STAMETS? You are arn't you? Yeah this sounds just like you. HI PAUL


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It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Invisiblemycopsycho
Tit Inspector.
Male
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 3,712
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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #2952253 - 08/01/04 04:40 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

lol...


--------------------
I Am The Sickness.

Diploid: I think adults have a right to make stupid decisions and it's nobody else's fucking business.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: mycopsycho]
    #2952262 - 08/01/04 04:44 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

How the else can someone be UNREGESTERED AND ANONYMOUS? Besides I was once fortunet enough to hear him speak in seattle once and that sounds like his mannerizums.    :smile:


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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Invisiblemycopsycho
Tit Inspector.
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Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #2952272 - 08/01/04 04:47 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

hmmmm... i dunno, but i don't think paul would be lurking around on a site such as the shroomery IMO


--------------------
I Am The Sickness.

Diploid: I think adults have a right to make stupid decisions and it's nobody else's fucking business.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: mycopsycho]
    #2952281 - 08/01/04 04:52 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Mabey not but this site can not be any more dangerous to him as it is to us. One thing is for sure. There is some great info in this thread.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblemycopsycho
Tit Inspector.
Male
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 3,712
Loc: Going Nowhere Fast
Re: How hard is it to grow Pan. Cyans [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #2952289 - 08/01/04 04:54 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

the whole site is full of great info, i love it here, everything you would ever NEED to know about shrooms


--------------------
I Am The Sickness.

Diploid: I think adults have a right to make stupid decisions and it's nobody else's fucking business.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation >> Mushroom Cultivation Archive >> Panaeolus

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