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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year
    #2293039 - 02/02/04 02:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Anonymous

Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2293771 - 02/02/04 11:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

wealth is to be preserved and hoarded

why should people have that which they earn taken from them?

sharing the bounty for the common good

the best way to "share the bounty" is to allow individuals to invest their wealth as they see fit. unlike forced redistribution schemes, capital investment is voluntary, provides employment, and actually creates wealth.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: ]
    #2293881 - 02/02/04 12:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
wealth is to be preserved and hoarded

why should people have that which they earn taken from them?




Because that amount of money is excessive, and more often that not has been passed down. Very few get that money without having a headstart from parents, etc...Companies that generate this amount of wealth often destroy and waste resources, destroy communities etc...(not all)

My point is,its not the same as taking from a baker that spent two years savign $5000 dollars, than a ceo that makes thatmuch a day off others work. Why would you want that much? geed comes into play, and with that much money comes power, and that often leads to negtive effects.

Now, i don't believe money should be taken and distributed to all..., but the imbalance has plauged our kind since society began.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2294032 - 02/02/04 01:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Because that amount of money is excessive

and who's place is it to decide when a person has acquired more wealth than is good for them?

more often that not has been passed down. Very few get that money without having a headstart from parents, etc

very often it is, but so what? if i decide to give some of my wealth to my son, why does it then become the government's business to take some of it?

Companies that generate this amount of wealth often destroy and waste resources, destroy communities etc...(not all)

i disagree. what sorts of businesses do this kind of thing?

My point is,its not the same as taking from a baker that spent two years savign $5000 dollars, than a ceo that makes thatmuch a day off others work.

why not?

Why would you want that much?

i can think of a lot of reasons why someone might want to be filthy rich, but why is that relevant?

geed comes into play, and with that much money comes power, and that often leads to negtive effects.

one of many reasons to keep business seperate from the state.

but the imbalance has plauged our kind since society began.

consider this... in a free society where exchange is voluntary, the only way to acquire wealth is to create it. if you want something, you must either create it yourself or create something of equal value to exchange for it. people are wealthy because they create a lot of wealth. not everyone has an equal capacity to create wealth. people are equal in their rights, but not their capabilities. why should a person who has endeavored to create large amounts of wealth have it taken away from them?

some people have a problem of seeing society and the market as a big pie from which we each get to have a peice. it's not like that at all.


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 788
Loc: Dade County
Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: ]
    #2294195 - 02/02/04 02:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said
Companies that generate this amount of wealth often destroy and waste resources, destroy communities etc...(not all)

i disagree. what sorts of businesses do this kind of thing?


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 788
Loc: Dade County
Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: ]
    #2294197 - 02/02/04 02:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The entire automotive industry. why is average fuel consumption/ mile increasing?


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: thescientist]
    #2294235 - 02/02/04 03:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yet the pollutants produced per mile are a tiny fraction of what they were two decades ago. What's your point?

pinky


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: ]
    #2294238 - 02/02/04 03:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Because that amount of money is excessive

and who's place is it to decide when a person has acquired more wealth than is good for them?




Generally when you have enough food, tools to work with, clothes, and a bit extra for whatever is enough. This drive to get more and more money is pointless if you have everything you need.

Quote:

mushmaster said: more often that not has been passed down. Very few get that money without having a headstart from parents, etc

very often it is, but so what? if i decide to give some of my wealth to my son, why does it then become the government's business to take some of it?




Well i never said i was for the government to take, but the passing on of fortunes eventually leads to powergroups, which then war for more power, harvest at wastefull rates, all the things ppl with alot of money end up doing. (im not talking about a millinare...i mean multi billion dollar industries etc.) YOu can see how this causes conflict right? the inbalance?!

Quote:

mushmaster said:Companies that generate this amount of wealth often destroy and waste resources, destroy communities etc...(not all)

i disagree. what sorts of businesses do this kind of thing?




Coca cola, mc millan blodelll, mcdonalds, chrysler, etc,....

Quote:

mushmaster said:My point is,its not the same as taking from a baker that spent two years savign $5000 dollars, than a ceo that makes thatmuch a day off others work.

why not?




Because the baker works hard all day, only able to put aside small amounts. THe ceo gets many times more than what he needs for nothing...simply because his business was bought or inherited. Can you honestly not see the differance?!

Quote:

mushmaster said: Why would you want that much?

i can think of a lot of reasons why someone might want to be filthy rich, but why is that relevant?




Because to be filthy rich means your consuming more than others, without giving back. You can live off of interest alone, but that imbalance isn't right. We coulnd't all do tht right?..think about it....

Quote:

mushmaster said: geed comes into play, and with that much money comes power, and that often leads to negtive effects.

one of many reasons to keep business seperate from the state.




agreed.

Quote:

mushmaster said: but the imbalance has plauged our kind since society began.

consider this... in a free society where exchange is voluntary, the only way to acquire wealth is to create it. if you want something, you must either create it yourself or create something of equal value to exchange for it. people are wealthy because they create a lot of wealth. not everyone has an equal capacity to create wealth. people are equal in their rights, but not their capabilities. why should a person who has endeavored to create large amounts of wealth have it taken away from them?




Well i never claimed it should, but there are many problems that stem from this imbalance whether your a king, or even a ceo. I don't understand why you would endeavor for wealth your whole life...what a wastefull meaningless existance.

Quote:

mushmaster said:some people have a problem of seeing society and the market as a big pie from which we each get to have a peice. it's not like that at all.




No, ..... its a big fat guy threatening everyone away and eating until he vomits, while the others go hungry.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Registered: 05/21/02
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Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: ]
    #2294278 - 02/02/04 03:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

consider this... in a free society where exchange is voluntary, the only way to acquire wealth is to create it. if you want something, you must either create it yourself or create something of equal value to exchange for it. people are wealthy because they create a lot of wealth. not everyone has an equal capacity to create wealth. people are equal in their rights, but not their capabilities. why should a person who has endeavored to create large amounts of wealth have it taken away from them?




nothing could be further from the truth...everyone has the same capacity to produce wealth..albeit in different forms...aggressors may have a greater ability to acquire wealth..but this is due to a lack of moral principles..rather than the presence of intelligence...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2294312 - 02/02/04 03:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Generally when you have enough food, tools to work with, clothes, and a bit extra for whatever is enough. This drive to get more and more money is pointless if you have everything you need.




That's pretty vague man, but like, generally, whatever, I guess.

Quote:

THe ceo gets many times more than what he needs for nothing...simply because his business was bought or inherited.



Please define need.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2294336 - 02/02/04 03:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

'Sniff, sniff...' I smell ENVY.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: Evolving]
    #2294368 - 02/02/04 04:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Needs: food, water, shelter, companionship.

Wants: everything else.

Note: money is surprisingly not needed for survivial.

All im trying to say is ppl need to realise the futility of using more than you need. We are the only species on the planet to be so naive, and everything else aside, we cannot keep developing as we have been.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: Evolving]
    #2294374 - 02/02/04 04:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

im curious as to what carbon hoots is envious of...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2294391 - 02/02/04 04:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Azmodeus writes:

Generally when you have enough food, tools to work with, clothes, and a bit extra for whatever is enough.

When you have "enough" for how long? For the next 24 hours? The next six months? The rest of your life if you are retired? For unexpected emergencies which arise?

When you have "enough" for whom? Yourself and only yourself? For yourself and your wife? For yourself, your wife, your children (don't forget their university educations), your destitute parents and your wastrel brother?

Well i never said i was for the government to take...

Everything you write implies that the government is to take the "excess". If the government is not to take it, either the owner gets to keep it (which mushmaster is arguing) or someone else gets to take it. If you don't want the government to seize it, then who do you think should? The Mafia, perhaps?

...but the passing on of fortunes eventually leads to powergroups, which then war for more power... harvest at wastefull rates, all the things ppl with alot of money end up doing.

The above is true in totalitarian societies. However, in societies where politicians are elected by the general populace, those who might war are elected by Joe voter, and Joe voter has an irritating tendency to think for himself. The wealthy "powergroups" can of course choose to donate money to the election campaigns of their cronies, but we have just witnessed a convincing demonstration of the fact that money spent on promoting a candidate guarantees nothing. Howard Dean had massively better funding than anyone else, and he got beaten like a Chinese gong.

THe ceo gets many times more than what he needs for nothing...simply because his business was bought or inherited.

Unlike some who post here, I have spent quite a bit of time in the corporate world, and have met and talked with (and of course worked for) several CEOs. None of the ones I met inherited their position, nor did they buy it. All of the ones I met were among the most intelligent, ambitious, decisive, and hardest-working people I have ever met. Right up there with surgeons.

If you think just anyone can be a successful CEO, I suggest you submit your application to one of the big corporations. The board of directors would be delighted to inform the shareholders they had found a CEO willing to work for "enough food, tools to work with, clothes, and a bit extra for whatever is enough." The greedy shareholders could then pocket much more in the way of dividends and everyone would be happy.

Because to be filthy rich means your consuming more than others, without giving back.

How on earth do you figure the rich give back nothing? You think people just give the rich their mansions and champagne and Ferraris? The rich give back money -- money which is spent on products and services which employ people like bakers, for example.

You can live off of interest alone, but that imbalance isn't right.

Explain what you mean by "imbalance."

We coulnd't all do tht right?..think about it....

Take your own advice for a change. Think about it..

It is of course true that not all six billion-plus people on the planet can live by doing nothing more than investing then living off the interest. It is also true that not all six billion-plus can live as singers. Nor can all six billion-plus live as dancers -- or as artists or movie stars or even for that matter as potters or cabinet makers or construction workers or automobile manufacturers or farmers or fishermen. The only way that many people can support themselves is through division of labor. Some farm, some manufacture, some promote, some entertain, some invest. Everyone consumes.

I don't understand why you would endeavor for wealth your whole life...what a wastefull meaningless existance.

And I don't understand why someone would endeavor to be a beggar in an orange robe contemplating his navel for the rest of his life. Our inability to understand the motivations behind those who choose to spend their lives differently than we would doesn't mean we should forcibly prevent them from doing so. If you want to live your life at a subsistence level, fine by me. If you want to attempt to make a billion dollars by age fifty, also fine by me.

No, ..... its a big fat guy threatening everyone away and eating until he vomits, while the others go hungry.

You have just illustrated mushmaster's point about how you view the production of wealth perfectly. It appears you honestly believe there is a static amount of wealth in the world -- that the economy is a pizza pie, and if one guy eats two slices, someone else has to eat the box. This belief is incorrect. Read any basic economics text. I suggest you start with Henry Hazlitt's "Economics in One Lesson", or just about anything by Thomas Sowell.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2294400 - 02/02/04 04:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

...everyone has the same capacity to produce wealth...

Incorrect. This can be confirmed through direct observation.

However, even if the above assertion were correct, "capacity" is not equivalent to "desire". I myself could have produced one hell of a lot more wealth than I have so far. I made the deliberate decision to settle for less cash and a more pleasing lifestyle. I'm sure I'm not unique in this.

pinky


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: Phred]
    #2294416 - 02/02/04 04:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

you misunderstand completely.

:shake:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2294425 - 02/02/04 04:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
im curious as to what carbon hoots is envious of...



Hmmmm, I wonder.

Now to express a few sentiments...

Just because someone does well for themselves is no moral justification for taking their earnings. If someone is truly compassionate, they would take it upon themselves to earn money and distribute their wealth to others. (How many left wingers in Congress are millionaires? How many left wingers in hollywierd are millionaires?) They would create businesses and offer high wage jobs to those they claim to care about. They would learn what it takes to become wealthy and teach those who need to learn these skills and habits, so they to can leave a legacy for their children. It's easy to be 'compassionate' with someone else's money. It's easy give away what you haven't earned. It's easy to send out agents of the state to coerce your fellow human beings into giving up what is theirs. It's easier to address the symptoms of poverty, than to work on changing the underlying causes.

The caricature of the wealthy as lazy CEOs who do nothing but play golf and screw their secretaries, their customers and the environment is simplistic, naive and in no way representative of the vast majority of people who have become wealthy. Contrary to ignorant rhetoric, most people in the U.S. who are millionaires have become so through hard work and thrift. Why should they be punished for years of effort and savings? So coercive utopians can feel good about themselves?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: Phred]
    #2294641 - 02/02/04 06:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Incorrect. This can be confirmed through direct observation.

only when the observers are the ones holding the batons and collecting the loot...for example..when a worker in china is paid $0.10 to sew up a $200 pair of sneakers..which one is producing the wealth in this case..and please explain to the audience..how that scumbag thats getting the other $199.90 has a "greater capacity to produce wealth" than the person whose actually producing it...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2294738 - 02/02/04 06:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Azmodeus writes:

you misunderstand completely.

I do?

Gee, if there's one thing I hate, it's when I misunderstand something. Maybe you can correct my misunderstanding through rational explanation and debate, then.

Why do you choose not to answer any of my questions in my rebuttal statement? Do you not care to make the effort or do you lack the ability to answer them?

Either way, it makes no difference to me. If it makes you feel better to believe I "misunderstand", go for it. The readers of the thread will make their own judgments on whose understanding is more complete.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Vote Republican if you make over $250,000 a year [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2294807 - 02/02/04 06:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

...for example..when a worker in china is paid $0.10 to sew up a $200 pair of sneakers..which one is producing the wealth in this case..and please explain to the audience..how that scumbag thats getting the other $199.90 has a "greater capacity to produce wealth" than the person whose actually producing it...

I repeat my advice to Azmodeus -- you would be well-served by reading a good book on basic economics.

No single person anywhere in the chain of people involved in making a $200 pair of sneakers receives anywhere even close to $199.90 to put in his/her pocket. If you honestly believe the CEO of Nike pockets $199.90 out of each $200 sale you need to re-examine your premises.

As for who is actually "producing" the shoes, I suggest you think more thoroughly about what is involved in their manufacture. The Chinese laborer who stitched parts together is no more responsible for "producing" the shoe than is the Malaysian rubber tapper who helped harvest the latex that eventually went into part of the sole, or the factory worker who runs the machine which produced the velcro closures.

You think you can magically conjure up $199.90 to put in your pocket by just hiring a worker? Think again. If it were that easy, we'd all be millionaires.

You must first buy the various components of the shoe -- cloth, leather, plastics, rubber, dyes, etc.

You must build or rentthe factory which houses the machines used in the manufacture of the shoes.

You must buy the machines, and maintain them. You must pay for electricity, packaging, shipping, designing, advertising, testing. You must pay taxes. If you are operating in China, you must pay bribes to various authorities.

Of course, you must also pay wages to your workers.

Now let's look at the Chinese "producer". If he wants to pocket more than 10 cents (assuming for the sake of argument that this figure is accurate) for each pair of shoes he produces, he is free to produce his own shoes rather than work for someone else. If he is that great a producer, surely he must be able to find someone willing to buy the shoes he produces at a nickel apiece for at least a buck a pair -- maybe even ten bucks.

pinky


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