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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
The Wounded Planet
    #2289990 - 01/31/04 06:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

*Disclaimer: Please read NOTHING into my personal ecological views by the content of this thread.*

I have often heard about Gaia suffering. For a moment, let's accept the hypothesis that the earth is an intelligent entity. If so, what can she feel pain about? The transgressions of men? Why? Because of pollution and the extinction of animal species?

Why is carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide considered more toxic to her than ammonia and sulfur?

If she felt the loss of animal life, then how about Mt. St Helens exploding and wiping out billions of animal and plant lives? Or even the entire predator / prey relationship?

Does she cry when hit by a meteor even as that meteor adds much needed buidling materials for life?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: Swami]
    #2289999 - 01/31/04 06:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think she cries when we send our "probes" to other planets
I'm gonna go and rub up against a rock today so she doesn't feel neglected


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2290131 - 01/31/04 07:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:lol:


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: Swami]
    #2290259 - 01/31/04 07:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

technically, a volcanoe is a natural part of the earth, which would in fact make up gaia. So its like a vein bursting, or just maybe shes taking a big s**t.

cutting down her trees? Polluting the groud, the rivers, these things are natural and premote life? I dont think so.

many animals have died as a process of the earth changing. Just like humans and all living organisms live and die. Some were better at the constant process than others. But since there has been a new species "us" we have developed artificial things that are not directly able to be turned over back to the planet, so other things suffer because of it.

but i think this thread is about defeating what other people think about the whole gaia principle...  :smirk:


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What?


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Anonymous

Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2290417 - 01/31/04 09:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: ]
    #2290502 - 01/31/04 09:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It pains me too.

This is probably one of the only reasons i want to be an architect right now.

The way people are building right now is not natural at all, it follows no efficient purpose BUT THAT of humans themselves. Its very  very  scarce that you will find a structure that is meant to use what is given to us to provide what we need.

Materials that are not made to decompose or made to be recycled, when they are thrown in the trash, where do they go?

Imagine how much trash the typical american goes through in one week. Im not talking about recylables, but just plain trash. Where does all this trash go? Thats right, were filling up land, killing off acres of precious wildlife to accomodate for useless WASTE.

Even steps have been taken to prevent such action, but I remember a report was done about waste decomposition at the bottom of landfills. The waste is not decomposing because it is so compact there is no air to get to the trash to begin the decomposing process.

It boggles my mind to think that people just forget about what they do with their garbage. They think it just goes into this ifninite void that will always be there to consume the consumed. Ive read articles that talk about nanotechnology striving to create micro decomposers to get rid of the trash in landfills. BUt i am highly speculative of the ability to do that. The ammount of different compounds in a landfill is more than enough for anyone to think about :wink: . Besides, where is the kind of resources to implement a change like that within the next 100 years?

So people like to stuff the earth with their precious shit, but they dont care about what happens. I cant understand it, i dont know how people can just shrug it off like it just doesnt matter. Even worse is that a lot of people dont even think about it!


I hope that if i do end up getting a degree in architecture i can emerse myself in enviromental design, and leaerning how to use recycled products and building strategies to conserve and dispense natural energy. maybe by then they will have more advanced energy devices to support our technological advancement.

I have a lot of ideas myself, but i dont think what has happened is ireversable. It could be, and we may see results from our mistakes, but to truely judge that is in our realm of possibility right now, at least from my standpoint.

--------

I had this vision a year or more ago, where i looked at myself, and i saw this tattoo around my arm and chest and my back, wrapping around, it was a kind of vine, green vine. Ever since then ive felt like it was my "spiritual" mark, of what I am doing.

I love this planet. Its my home and its my life. Without it, i would not have the joy to think and experience.
--------------------------------

I think im going to start a poll now.


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What?


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2290783 - 02/01/04 12:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Zero, I disagree with your reasoning. Pushing a species to the brink of extinction can actually be positive in the long run. Only the very very strongest survive. In the past species have bounced back from these circumstances with a superior gene pool. I don't have any examples but I read this in Edward O Wilson's book The Future of Life, so believe it.

Also, let's all have a moment of silence for the first great extinction on earth. Oxygen, a deadly poisonous gas destroyed every species on the planet except for the species that produced it: blue-green algae. This set up the potential for all subsequent life forms, but I guess it's still unnatural and evil?

I'm afraid that it's all good under the sun as far as the earth is concerned. According to Wilson it takes ten million years to regain biodiversity after a major extinction. With our view of time, that's a lot, but as far as the history of the earth is concerned, it's nothing. A blink of an eye, that's it. Gaya doesn't give a fuck. We need to preserve nature for ourselves and our offspring, not for something as vast and indestructible as the earth.

Oh, and if you don't know, Edward O Wilson is a very kickass naturalist. Two-time pulitzer prize winning author and Harvard professor. Very cool guy, check out his books if you want to know about the state of the earth and what we can do to conserve it working with the currect economic/political climate.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny Flag
Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2290784 - 02/01/04 12:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i mean i'm not for completely killing the planet, but i like to look at the fact that poeple are the end result of everything this planet has striven to create up to now. of course a few eggs are going to get broken, thats just how it works. (eggs broken referring to polution and the use of natural resources)our technological progress and culture of consumption is demanded BY THE PLANET. if it wasn't meant to happen it wouldn't be so, it wouldn't work.


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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: Dogomush]
    #2290892 - 02/01/04 01:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Im not saying that people shouldnt be pushed to their edges, its a very enduring process though that enables the individual to really get in fear of their actions.

What i am apposed to, is the fact that people DO NOT GIVE A SHIT, about the earth.

There is a great difference between enduring ones mistakes, and not even taking a look at them. One result will give the one experiencing a chance to reflect on the decisions they have made, and really get down to the nitty gritty.

The other will leave them in a situation that has almost no chance of escaping.

If people continue to ignore the issues that need to be adressed, we are going to have some serious problems on our hands. You may dis-agree with your interpretation of my post, but i am confident that the two of us understand some basic principles concerning the enviroment and human behavior.

The fact that human awareness exists, sets up a whole new arena for thought concerning the natural process and artificial creation.

What bared us from thriving decomposed as the result of other systems coming into contact within the given speicies.

I think that with our ability to rationalize and make decisions, we must face the great unknown, but at the same token, be aware of the decisions we must make in order to propogate our own survival.

My point is that our own survival is ensuring the security of planet earth to be able to recycle its compost in order for life to continue. Whether humans will die of this turning over process or not will be up to the humans themselves.

WE have been given a gift, conciousness, a soul, whatever you want to call it, in order to be able to think in a manner that will ensure our survival and propogation throughout this planet, and whatever lies beyond our grasp of the unknown.

I hope that clears things up a little more.


--------------------
What?


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Anonymous

Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2290894 - 02/01/04 01:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
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Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: Swami]
    #2290936 - 02/01/04 02:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"...our technological progress and culture of consumption is demanded BY THE PLANET. if it wasn't meant to happen it wouldn't be so, it wouldn't work."

TrueKimbo, this statement is incredibly flawed. Look around you, it ISN'T WORKING. 70 species go extinct every single day. 90% of the World's original forest is GONE because of humans. Replaced with desert, parking lots, suburbs and ugly and homogenous clearcuts. I am so sick of hearing this apologist argument, it's such nonsense. Do 25% of women demand to be raped? Do children demand to be beaten? All that statement is is an excuse to do nothing. It's the excuse of a rapist "She was wearing slutty clothes, she wanted it." or how about "Those Natural Resources were so ripe and useful I just had to take them.."I originally thought I should hold myself back on this one, but I'm so tired of hearing that bullshit statement that I let Pele out this time.

As for the original question here is my response.

There is a difference between a natural "disaster" such as a volcanic eruption and human caused devastation. First of all a volcanic eruption is a relatively isolated incident. Also, it tends to be beneficial given time. Eroded lava rock enriches soil with many minerals and nutrients, creates landbases (Hawaii wouldn't exist without volcanic eruption.) The destruction we have caused is occuring everywhere, it is simply massive. There are dioxins in breast milk, like I already mentioned 70 species go extinct every single day, nuclear waste, oil spills. There are countless more examples I could offer. A volcanic eruption, a hurricane, a tornado, an earthquake is unlikely to obliterate an entire species or create toxic substances that will circulate and kill for thousands of years, never to biodegrade.

There is a difference between natural and human caused destruction. The Earth, "Gaia" if you will, requires balance and She currently does not have it, thanks to us. Ecosystems have built in checks so that seeming disasters are usually not as obliterating as they could be. For example, in dry areas there are regeular forest fires to burn off dry fallen matter. These fires are relatively small, harmless to the larger trees and they provide nutrients for smaller brush. When these fires don't happen regularily, often due to humans, when it finally happens its massive. Look at the Interior of British Columbia, the whole thing was up in flames this past summer because of PEOPLE in most instances. The planet has never been as unbalanced as it is right now, and every bit of evidence suggests a crash is on its way.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: Swami]
    #2291190 - 02/01/04 05:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

in all seriousness, as an environmentalist, I don't like what's going on in the world.

is the Earth alive? hell if I know. but I do know that WE are alive, and we enjoy clean air and water.

we don't really need these lofty goals of protecting Gaia and being in balance with nature and all that to be environmentally conscious. we are only acting in self interest when we protect the environment because we are the ones who want clean air and water, not Gaia. we are the ones who want forests to get lost in, not Gaia. we are the ones who want to prevent global warming, not Gaia. Gaia could care less whether we live or die, or if global temperatures are hospitable to US. we are the ones who want these things.
self interest. it's not such a bad thing.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2291236 - 02/01/04 07:00 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The forest fire example is a good one. It also reminds me of floods, how the walls we build to protect us from them, if they DO pass those walls, it is going to be even worse. Well, something along those lines...

During the '30's, wasn't there a huge fucking dust cloud caused by clearing of the land? Didn't basically destroy a hell of a lot of shit? We cleared the land, we paid the consequences.... I didn't live through it, but it is my understanding that the Dust Bowl wasn't exactly pleasant, and that is devastated... and it was all directly due to us and our negative effects on the land.

The thing about the landfills is right. We make them airtight and then seal the top off. The shit doesn't decompose because the necessary microbes aren't getting exposed. Maybe if we were a little more conscious about the way we disposed of our trash, we would end up setting up a system where the landfills aren't capped off. Water would be added and the shit would be stirred up.... the trash would be decomposing a hell of a lot faster than it is now (hint: it isn't even really decomposing right now).

In the Midwest, there is only so much topsoil.. that rich black yummy stuff that makes the land there so fertile. Well, topsoil is being eroded much faster than it can be replenished. Look to Lousiania, they now have it all. The Mississippi River has been carrying it away. Farmers don't protect their soil and it gets taken from them.  A hell of a lot of our crops are coming from even just Iowa. Kansas, etc... it was once all prairie. All that grass stuffage, it is what made that topsoil.... well, Iowa isn't exactly covered with wildflowers anymore. :grin:

Then there are the rainforests... my god. People slashing and burning because it will produce farmland that will only be stable for a year or two. Rainforests aren't in areas where it really tends to rain a lot, all that moisture is dependant on the system... the land quickly turns to desert and then what?

Or in Africa, where land is being cleared for cows that have no place being there. The cows are all fucking malnourished and they don't even end up selling the fucking cows because the more cows you have, the richer you are.

Especially with the rainforest one.. direct example of ignorance. They could make much more money keeping the rainforest. Harvest igunas, damn it. They live in the system that is already there. Their meat is basically the same as beef... I believe England used it when Mad Cow Disease struck over there.

Oh, the deer in the States are going Mad as well. Chronic Wasting Disease... and actually, that points to the other extreme, when our management of resources works too well. :wink: Too many deer... Its really ironic, too, because it is the hunters that have saved a hell of a lot of species in North America. They are the ones who hold an interest in the animals and they are the ones who want them to be there in the future, so they can go out and shoot them... turkeys, all sorts of ducks and geese, deer, sheep, etc. etc. etc... and they propose a plan that actually works for convserving the animals and keeping their populations balanced.

Well, now there are TOO much deer and they are getting diseases that make them retarded... but deer are being taken out left and right now. :lol:

Anyways, don't take anything I have said too seriously, as I'm going off of memory..  I did feel a strong urge to open up Google and research, but I don't have enough time to do so... Maybe later I can go find some links. Damn it if I wasn't back in Wisconsin, or I'd hit my Environmental Science teacher up for some writings or maybe ask him to write a small piece... :grin: I didn't even get into mines or anything. hehe
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2291407 - 02/01/04 11:13 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

To no one in particular:

Interesting responses, but none directly answering my question:

Is the earth in pain, and if so how and / or why?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

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Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: Swami]
    #2291425 - 02/01/04 11:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Is the earth in pain, and if so how and / or why?




*shrugs*

We have no way of knowing right now if the Earth is an entity capable of feeling pain... 

Does that help? :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2291478 - 02/01/04 12:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ok, then how can anyone claim that the planet is wounded?

Some point to strip-mining pits, which may not be very aesthetic to human eyes, but what is wrong with moving some material from here to there?

One volcano can easily pollute the atmosphere more than a million cars and so on.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
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Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2291521 - 02/01/04 12:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

A hell of a lot of our crops are coming from even just Iowa. Kansas




and you don't even wanna know what I was doing to the cornfields last summer :eyemouth:


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

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Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: Swami]
    #2291551 - 02/01/04 12:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Ok, then how can anyone claim that the planet is wounded?





I dunno, I certainly don't claim it. :grin:

However, we can fuck shit up terribly... I wouldn't know if the planet can feel it or not, but there is a reason why certain rivers flood every year, reasons why we have trees, reasons why fires take place... All I know is that having another Dust Bowl would really fucking suck.

Its still a good idea to keep our planet in a state where it can support a wide variety of life. Diversity rules. :grin:

And SpecialEd, no I DON'T want to know what you did (I thought of you when I mentioned Kansas, too, hehe). You know what is fun? Making mazes and shit in corn fields, and then making a map... the farmers tend to not like it, though. They also don't like it when you are all drunk and driving through their fields playing cat and mouse with someone else...  :eek:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2291560 - 02/01/04 01:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

And SpecialEd, no I DON'T want to know what you did (I thought of you when I mentioned Kansas, too, hehe). You know what is fun? Making mazes and shit in corn fields, and then making a map... the farmers tend to not like it, though. They also don't like it when you are all drunk and driving through their fields playing cat and mouse with someone else...
Peace.




They also get upset when you sacrifice chickens and have ritual orgies in their fields. :lol:

Yeah, you can have some fun running around in corn fields, you just gotta make sure you get all of the damn ticks off your body.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

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Re: The Wounded Planet [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2291573 - 02/01/04 01:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SpecialEd said:
They also get upset when you sacrifice chickens and have ritual orgies in their fields. :lol:

Yeah, you can have some fun running around in corn fields, you just gotta make sure you get all of the damn ticks off your body.




Never encountered ticks in corn fields myself.. I don't think I have ever had a tick on me until I moved to Wisconsin. :grin:

Mmmm.... I could take some venison off one of those big ass, corn fed Iowa deer right now... *drools like Homer* :laugh:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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