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remake



Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,178
Loc: South Africa
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En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas
#22881651 - 02/09/16 04:46 AM (8 years, 16 days ago) |
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I'm 22 years old, I live in South Africa, I'm white, I'm an architectural technologist - soon to be (hopefully) Architect.
I like philosophy (or at least the concept thereof) and all things to do with the mind and human relations.
I like questioning thoughts and actions, how people relate to the external, beyond their mind (not necessary in a spiritual sense, more in a direct biological/physical manner).
One thing that keeps bothering me throughout my feeble existence is the way in which people attach themselves to the knowledge they have accumulated throughout their own lives and how they constantly are in a sense of entitlement over others.
Sometimes it feels as if others (and sometimes even I) think:
"Well, I have studied (insert subject) for (insert amount of years)! I know more than you! And have considered all! You have nothing to say of value regarding (insert subject)! You know nothing! You also could not no nothing, never! I have preceded you! And will always precede you! I am infinitely entitled over you, since I have already studied all there is to study! Don't you see? I am right! I must be right! I have lived longer, seen more, done more! You will never be here! Yet here is a destination unobtainable! Here is me! And you can never be me, think like me, or be of any value to me! Don't you see now! I am me! And I am right! I am truth!"
To what sense can these trains of thought be derailed?
What must be done in order for anyone to have anything "of value" to anyone else?
We constantly regard our own perceptions of truth, well, to be truth.
We say: "Well, until it is proven wrong!?"
What is meant by wrong? You see? Because upon learning a wrong, we simply replace it with the next truth! Thus we are simply always right! Truth is lucrative, but it seems the modes one has gone through in order to attain it is out of reach for anyone else but the subject in question.
We patent our individualities to such a extent that we simply see ourselves as barriers of the light of truth and rationale!
Its hard to escape, because as I type these words, I can't help but trust I am correct in my assumptions.
Why is it so hard to get rid of my entitlements? Its a curse and a tremendous source of conflict between others I have come to see and experience.
It seems like we talk and talk and talk about ourselves - and we want nothing more than to only talk to ourselves (thus convince others of our own teachings).
I mean how could you really ever talk about anything other than that which you have seen, or experienced through your own senses (be it an imaginary delusion or not!) and communicate it in a way other than your own conviction?
At last, one of the main points I want to get to though, is the idea of Patents:
Why do we patent ideas/inventions/knowledge/discoveries? It seems so stupid.
Sure, you or I might have a brilliant idea, but how could that idea possibly be implemented to its truest/highest potential if it were not made available to the minds and capabilities of everyone? A free-market of ideas?
How much has progress suffered due to prideful actions taken in order to idolize one's ego?
Edited by remake (02/09/16 06:37 AM)
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viktor
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: remake]
#22881881 - 02/09/16 07:26 AM (8 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
FranniePilgrim said: Because upon learning a wrong, we simply replace it with the next truth! Thus we are simply always right!
I've noticed this. This is why I became interested in Pyrrhonism. The method of Pyrrhonism is not to think in terms of right or wrong but to suspend judgment on such questions.
So it's possible to, for example, decide that there is no material basis to consciousness, but to not replace that with some other kind of woo or magical thinking.
I've found this method very helpful. I no longer care if I'm right or not, about anything, because I no longer make judgments about what's right or wrong.
I like to remind myself that the only thing I know is that I am conscious. Nothing else is a certainty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhonism
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Icelander
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: remake]
#22881889 - 02/09/16 07:30 AM (8 years, 16 days ago) |
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This is a very important question you pose IMO and it seems pretty well thought out by you. I hope it gets a good run. 
For me it's taken an illness that is both painful and debilitating to bring me off of that mental high horse I was on. I realized fully, (groked in fullness) that I was just another animal that would soon die and be forgotten completely in time. If my ideas were so special then why was I so expendable? This was humbling to my ego. So now I see that my opinions are just that. They are important mostly to me only and that's just the way this universe seems to construct its lifeforms for survival purposes. To be self centered. 
Great thread.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: viktor]
#22881912 - 02/09/16 07:39 AM (8 years, 16 days ago) |
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Very interesting. Some of this is a conclusion I came to for myself some years back.
Quote:
he brought back the idea that nothing can be known for certain. The senses are easily fooled, and reason follows too easily our desires.
this is also pretty right on imo but in my experience that a fuck of a lot of work to accomplish in totality.
Quote:
A Pyrrhonist tries to make the arguments of both sides as strong as possible. .
There's more that I like on first glance. I plan on giving it a good look over. Thanks for posting this.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (02/09/16 07:40 AM)
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deezdelta
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: remake]
#22881938 - 02/09/16 07:51 AM (8 years, 16 days ago) |
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Nice post. You actually hit on some pretty real philosophical issues. The first one concerning the authority of experts, this is a mechanism used by people in power to make everyone believe that if this expert says so, then it must be true. But people fail to recognize that these experts are employees of someone who may have an agenda. Also, you totally right about the fallacy that simply by studying something for years longer than you that this automatically makes the right. The fact is there have been many studies done that suggest the exact opposite is true and it all has to do with exposure to the discipline. Someone who study's one thing for too long ends up at a dead end and more than not, they cannot turn themselves around to crawl out and retry. It's the fresh eyes that make the most significant discoveries and there are several very large discoveries made in fields by people who weren't even in that field.
The second big one is this right until proven wrong non-sense. Its counter arguement is a concept called the principle of falsehood. This is a principle that basically just says what your thinking in that something must be considered false unless rigorously proven true. Which seems like simple enough logic but when massive amounts of money are at stake this seems to trump this painfully obvious necessary condition.
You seem to have a knack for rational critical thinking and the world can use a lot more of that that's for sure.
-------------------- Don't die tonight.
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deezdelta
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: deezdelta]
#22881949 - 02/09/16 07:56 AM (8 years, 16 days ago) |
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Also I agree with you very much about making discoveries open sourced in order to better expand and progress. That why I use Linux. Completely open source and anyone can contribute. The thing is power structures love to use stuff others don't know against people. This is hate and hate is fucked.
-------------------- Don't die tonight.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: remake]
#22882489 - 02/09/16 10:51 AM (8 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
FranniePilgrim said: Why do we patent ideas/inventions/knowledge/discoveries?
Because we live in a world in which exclusive rights to certain profits are valued above almost anything else.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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remake



Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,178
Loc: South Africa
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: remake]
#22885960 - 02/10/16 12:50 AM (8 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said:
I've noticed this. This is why I became interested in Pyrrhonism. The method of Pyrrhonism is not to think in terms of right or wrong but to suspend judgment on such questions.
So it's possible to, for example, decide that there is no material basis to consciousness, but to not replace that with some other kind of woo or magical thinking.
I've found this method very helpful. I no longer care if I'm right or not, about anything, because I no longer make judgments about what's right or wrong.
I like to remind myself that the only thing I know is that I am conscious. Nothing else is a certainty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhonism
I 'll be sure to check it out - what mind-fucks me with theories like this is that in order to stay true to its own definition, the theory - in of itself - has to be seen in the light of its own possible fallibility!
"Nothing can be known, not even this"
I like catching my trains of thought that are usually fuelled by emotion - let them roll out in my head and then question their implications and the source from whence they came. I have found that they almost always come from a self-centred perspective/judgment I have held over something/someone else.
Once we accept ourselves as individuals (or regard anything as being absolute in our minds) it seems as if it is then that the problems start to kick in.
"Stay true to yourself" people say. "Be yourself! Be yourself!".
How do we regard ourselves then? Where does a self begin and where does it end? How many of us are only actors reading off the scripts we happened to pick up?
"Your a A-type! I'm a B-type! She's a C-type"
On, and on, and on. We write each others scripts.
We all seem to be playing a game, yet so few of us see just to what extent we are doing it.
I, like you, simply do not care whether or not I am right or wrong. Thus I do not take, nor purposefully give offense!
What matters to me is the possibility of becoming extremely flexible in my perceptions/interactions of/with myself and others.
I like to visualize my perceptions on the true nature of things as veils continuously being ripped apart. And there exists inside of me, not "me", not a "God", not some final state of anything - but something else with no definition whatsoever - an infinite shapeshifter of sorts.
The possibility of perceiving the world differently at will, with a total disregard for any sense of selfish, emotionally connected pride.
How could someone become a true individual then? Wouldn't it be through the act of continuously denying any sense of individuality in the first place? To not be foiled by his emotional attachments to the truths he continuously is forced to cling on to?
Self awareness to me is extremely important. And trying to be on the forefront of self awareness, I believe, would be to judge your own perspectives and truths (as they are interpreted in the mind) constantly, without any emotional attachment to them.
And then, I have to do this with the very statements/questions I am making now! There seems to be no end!
Here, I believe, is where we can perceive of the possibility of something much, much greater.
Imagine a whole world with no attachments to themselves as "individuals".
Would we all be thinking of the same things through the disregard of the truths of ourselves and others? Would anything be said? Would anything be done?
What would the goal of a species without any conception of truth/self be?
Edited by remake (02/10/16 01:07 AM)
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Thanatos10
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: remake]
#22886003 - 02/10/16 01:18 AM (8 years, 15 days ago) |
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Depends on what the subject is really. In the realm of science there are experts who have studied I their fields for some time. Depending on what you're asking they can give you a more detailed response than average joe off the street.
Some paths and ideas are dead ends and some are just wrong. It's all a learning process. I have never met anyone who has the censoring attitude you have painted. They are experts in their fields, but are open to new ideas.
But take for example archeology. I can have an input on it sure, but I probably wouldn't have the depth that someone with years of knowledge and experience in the field would have. It would count, but not for much.
And to answer your last question, it would be death. To do so is nothing short of death for all mankind.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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remake



Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,178
Loc: South Africa
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: Thanatos10]
#22886044 - 02/10/16 01:51 AM (8 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: Depends on what the subject is really. In the realm of science there are experts who have studied I their fields for some time. Depending on what you're asking they can give you a more detailed response than average joe off the street.
Some paths and ideas are dead ends and some are just wrong. It's all a learning process. I have never met anyone who has the censoring attitude you have painted. They are experts in their fields, but are open to new ideas.
But take for example archeology. I can have an input on it sure, but I probably wouldn't have the depth that someone with years of knowledge and experience in the field would have. It would count, but not for much.
And to answer your last question, it would be death. To do so is nothing short of death for all mankind.
I am not suggesting that I would be of any value to any kind of subject that I obviously have no knowledge of.
What I am implying though, is that instead of working together in order to achieve a unified goal, there seems to be in all fields (and amongst ourselves in everyday life) an extreme amount of competition resulting in a waste of time and resources.
I'm just thinking of the possibility of all the different branches of human knowledge and expertise - in its totality, unrestricted and open sourced - amongst and between the same and different sciences - being used together in order to achieve a common goal.
How do we define that common goal? What would it be?
Thus I am questioning our individual "goals" we set up for ourselves in life, and how this is restricting certain possibilities of more mindful modes of voluntary coercion.
Edited by remake (02/10/16 02:27 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: remake]
#22886085 - 02/10/16 02:32 AM (8 years, 15 days ago) |
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From Viktors link:
According to the Pyrrhonists, it is our opinions or unwarranted judgments about things which turn them into desires, painful effort, and disappointment.[5] From all this a person is delivered who abstains from judging one state to be preferable to another.
Who does this? I just engaged in vigorous debate in the Suicide thread. I certainly don't think no opinions or judgements were being bandied about. What about the political forum where I post? Are there no opinions being handed down? Who exactly is capable of following such a dictate? I'd like them to speak?
You bring up some interesting points. Are we just actors without any true free will?
And if you should not care if you are right or wrong why do we hold on to our opinions so vigorously? I see this in almost everyone who debates here. Seeing the other POV sure doesn't look like it's happening often. Or making a strong case for both sides. I can usually pick apart anyone's position and show how they have not done such with any commitment (including my own). Especially in our Political Forum. That's a joke. And if it doesn't matter then why choose any side? Why debate vigorously and defend a position?
What matters to me is the possibility of becoming extremely flexible in my perceptions/interactions of/with myself and others
AWESOME! My goal also.
But let's face this. Nature made us. All creatures for survival purposes have a sense of self which prioritizes itself first and foremost. The idea of unconditional love is a joke. It doesn't exist imo and I've often debated that.
In the end we are stuck being animals and doing what all the other animals do. We can pretend and philosophize all we like.
Great post btw.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (02/10/16 02:35 AM)
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laughingdog
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: remake]
#22886656 - 02/10/16 08:06 AM (8 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
FranniePilgrim said: ..What I am implying though, is that instead of working together in order to achieve a unified goal, there seems to be in all fields (and amongst ourselves in everyday life) an extreme amount of competition resulting in a waste of time and resources......
this view point is somewhat narrow is it not? completely over looks the world of art Mozart did not need open source Michalangelo did not need open source Tesla did not need open source some people actually are creative
an Ann Rand type would call your view point communist I would not go so far but I wonder if it comes from lack of faith in your own individuality
all children enjoy making their own pictures and even frequently say: "I can do it my own self ! ! !" and many similar things, as we all already know I wonder who stepped on your parade?
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deezdelta
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: Thanatos10]
#22886841 - 02/10/16 09:06 AM (8 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: Depends on what the subject is really. In the realm of science there are experts who have studied I their fields for some time. Depending on what you're asking they can give you a more detailed response than average joe off the street.
Some paths and ideas are dead ends and some are just wrong. It's all a learning process. I have never met anyone who has the censoring attitude you have painted. They are experts in their fields, but are open to new ideas.
But take for example archeology. I can have an input on it sure, but I probably wouldn't have the depth that someone with years of knowledge and experience in the field would have. It would count, but not for much.
While it's true that there does exist some experts who are open to new ideas, the conjugate is much more prevalent from my experience. Many times experts do for the most part appear to be open to new ideas but usually they have at least on axiom that they will always cling too(most of the time it's a lot more than 1) . But that's why we have Philosophers!! It's the philosophers job to never cling to an axiom and to always be thinking as a child would. A very bright child that is... Hopefully.
Also in my opinion archeology might be one of the worst examples of a field containing a large quantity of open mindedness. Although, it is true that I have never actual had a discussion with a real archeologist so there's a good chance that my opinion can be better considered as a "wild stab in the vacuum of space" since I'm basing it on things I've seen on you tube for the most part.:-)
-------------------- Don't die tonight.
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Thanatos10
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: deezdelta]
#22887094 - 02/10/16 10:30 AM (8 years, 14 days ago) |
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I have actually found so called philosophers to behavior in the manner you have described.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Hippocampus



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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: remake]
#22887970 - 02/10/16 02:58 PM (8 years, 14 days ago) |
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To the OP
Being the expert, and the other person the layperson, you expect the other person to defer to your judgement. If they don't then that can easily be obnoxious in itself. It's up to the expert to decide if the contrarian layperson is actually making any sense or not. But many people would just assume not even put any thought into their ideas because the odds are that the layperson is full of shit. This is often reinforced by all the times in the past that the expert actually listened to something a layperson told them, and thought about it or acted on it, and it turned out to be a big fat waste of time. How many times does that need to happen before an expert just disregards anything any layperson brings up about their subject?
It's fairly easy to rely on an argument from authority if you are the authority, and only your opinion matters in the argument.
I think the key to breaking down the wall is to get on the good side of experts. I'm much more likely to go with something a layperson tells me if we are buds. Now you're using psychology to help yourself. People who are experts tend to subconsciously believe that laypeople have the same knowledge they do about their subject. And the flip-side is also true as a warning to people like you who think that everyone needs to listen to their lay opinions (talk about entitled): People who don't know about a subject tend to overestimate their knowledge of that subject. It's forgivable. Since you don't even know how much you don't know, you have no frame of reference for how much more expert the expert is than yourself.
GL
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remake



Registered: 01/05/16
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Loc: South Africa
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: remake]
#22890707 - 02/11/16 02:56 AM (8 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
this view point is somewhat narrow is it not? completely over looks the world of art Mozart did not need open source Michalangelo did not need open source Tesla did not need open source some people actually are creative
an Ann Rand type would call your view point communist I would not go so far but I wonder if it comes from lack of faith in your own individuality
all children enjoy making their own pictures and even frequently say: "I can do it my own self ! ! !" and many similar things, as we all already know I wonder who stepped on your parade?
Michalangelo, Tesla, Mozart, Ayn Rand…
We like to attach labels to things.
We like to label ourselves. This label seems to garner prevalence over all else.
Contrary to what you are assuming – no one has stepped on my parade – and I find this an occurrence happening less and less in my life. If you look closely, I am trying to explain the way in which this perspective I have helps me (in a positive way) in order to keep my individuality in check. I think people often put too much faith into their own individualities, rarely questioning their limits of creative thought, and when they fall short to which that they have identified themselves as (Michealangelo’s, Tesla’s, Mozart’s) - they descend into a pit of despair and self-pity. As I have stated earlier, I am trying to reach the depths to which my individuality remains just that – my individuality.
To what extent am I acting out in ways that which I have seen others do? To what sense am I claiming ownership over the thoughts and actions of others that I have unbeknownst found relation to? To what sense am I thus acting? Am I always acting? If it were so that I can do nothing else but be an actor, could I choose what I want to act out with more vigour? More passion? More conviction? Instead of half-assing my acting gig by claiming right to my “uniqueness”, is it possible for me to never reach the limits thereof? Could I be ever more creative than which I currently am? Ever more unique? If it is so that all around me is influencing the end product of my imagination, with what should I surround myself with? What should I read? What should I watch? What should I listen to? What should I talk about? What questions should I ask myself? How do I perceive others? How do I perceive myself through the presumptions of the perceptions of others? What do others think of me? Why do I think others think of me in this way?
I have noticed that one of the most powerful things a person can do in any social interaction is to break a stereotype. And we all are constantly being pushed into one, I believe – whether we do it ourselves unto others or whether it is done unto us.
Imagine if you could not only control when to break a stereotype, but purposefully set one up. Purposefully act in one way to more powerfully convey another – and do so continuously! Become someone indescribable. Someone, truly unique! Climbing the ladder of your individual nature, far above into the limits of your infinite imagination!
Imagine if this holds true for all of us. Imagine if all of us were to unlock our true individualities. Figure out where we fit into the world the best. Utilise ourselves in the best ways possible. Not be hindered by laziness as a reaction to the forced acceptance of one’s circumstance, but to be driven by curiosity and interest of oneself, unhindered, envy and guilt free!
Quote:
To the OP
Being the expert, and the other person the layperson, you expect the other person to defer to your judgement. If they don't then that can easily be obnoxious in itself. It's up to the expert to decide if the contrarian layperson is actually making any sense or not. But many people would just assume not even put any thought into their ideas because the odds are that the layperson is full of shit. This is often reinforced by all the times in the past that the expert actually listened to something a layperson told them, and thought about it or acted on it, and it turned out to be a big fat waste of time. How many times does that need to happen before an expert just disregards anything any layperson brings up about their subject?
It's fairly easy to rely on an argument from authority if you are the authority, and only your opinion matters in the argument.
I think the key to breaking down the wall is to get on the good side of experts. I'm much more likely to go with something a layperson tells me if we are buds. Now you're using psychology to help yourself. People who are experts tend to subconsciously believe that laypeople have the same knowledge they do about their subject. And the flip-side is also true as a warning to people like you who think that everyone needs to listen to their lay opinions (talk about entitled): People who don't know about a subject tend to overestimate their knowledge of that subject. It's forgivable. Since you don't even know how much you don't know, you have no frame of reference for how much more expert the expert is than yourself.
GL
I am not claiming to know more than those above me.
I am asking myself to what extent am I assuming the role of the expert, instead of me perceiving myself as being only a possible layman to those around me, not just in a professional sense (if it were, it would only be in relation to architecture in my case) but in everyday life, concerning all topics of discussion.
That being said, it seems like you are inferring that I do not have a valid say in philosophy or psychology? Whose to judge who other than us judging ourselves? Am I not a person? Am I not allowed to ask questions regarding my person - without being told what I am suppose to think of myself or ask myself? Philosophy is one thing I never would have thought as something to hold to any rules or be restricted in any way imaginatively.
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remake



Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,178
Loc: South Africa
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: Icelander]
#22890757 - 02/11/16 04:29 AM (8 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: From Viktors link:
According to the Pyrrhonists, it is our opinions or unwarranted judgments about things which turn them into desires, painful effort, and disappointment.[5] From all this a person is delivered who abstains from judging one state to be preferable to another.
Who does this? I just engaged in vigorous debate in the Suicide thread. I certainly don't think no opinions or judgements were being bandied about. What about the political forum where I post? Are there no opinions being handed down? Who exactly is capable of following such a dictate? I'd like them to speak?
You bring up some interesting points. Are we just actors without any true free will?
And if you should not care if you are right or wrong why do we hold on to our opinions so vigorously? I see this in almost everyone who debates here. Seeing the other POV sure doesn't look like it's happening often. Or making a strong case for both sides. I can usually pick apart anyone's position and show how they have not done such with any commitment (including my own). Especially in our Political Forum. That's a joke. And if it doesn't matter then why choose any side? Why debate vigorously and defend a position?
What matters to me is the possibility of becoming extremely flexible in my perceptions/interactions of/with myself and others
AWESOME! My goal also.
But let's face this. Nature made us. All creatures for survival purposes have a sense of self which prioritizes itself first and foremost. The idea of unconditional love is a joke. It doesn't exist imo and I've often debated that.
In the end we are stuck being animals and doing what all the other animals do. We can pretend and philosophize all we like.
Great post btw. 
I ponder over these questions myself. I have yet to find answers if they even could be found! Which should allude to something else, I believe - what that is I also do not know yet.
I also have similar views regarding the nature of love.
Thanks!
Edited by remake (02/11/16 04:29 AM)
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remake



Registered: 01/05/16
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Loc: South Africa
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Re: En-title-ment and Copyrighted Ideas [Re: remake]
#22894552 - 02/12/16 04:41 AM (8 years, 13 days ago) |
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All that I've said, though, should be taken with a fine grain of salt.
I try not to take myself too seriously.
I just think people should try to define whatever it is they seek in this life in a more selfish and self-dependent way.
None the less, if it were to be done, I believe we would be able to attain peace in a stage of indifferent equilibrium.
Edited by remake (02/12/16 04:45 AM)
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