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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!!
    #2289077 - 01/31/04 06:04 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The FIFTH estate

I am not suprised the CBC airs this, it would SHOCK me if a corporate station did.


And of course.....

AFTERMATH


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2289471 - 01/31/04 01:38 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:
I am not suprised the CBC airs this, it would SHOCK me if a corporate station did.




Corporate news organizations are very careful about biting the hand that feeds them. If CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX, CNN etc were to come down too harshly on the establishment they would no longer be fed exclusives or get the opportunities for questions at news conferences or may even be denied press passes for disharmonious new reporters. Also, any broadcast station is granted an exclusive monopoly on their frequency by the government (in a geographic area). FCC licensing can be revoked or the FCC may increase scrutiny on a broadcaster and decide that some of the broadcast content is deserving of fines for one infraction or another. It should also be noted that cable providers are granted exclusive monopolies by municipalities (though I don't think this has much bearing on what channels they decide to carry).

A thoughtful examination of the broadcast press in the U.S., would yield the conclusion that they would tend to be biased towards the powers that be.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinelostsuitcase
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: Evolving]
    #2293285 - 02/02/04 05:17 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

the cbc is the best network on earth, even the bbc is subject to gov't pressure, as the hutton report has recently proven.

its the cbc and the bbc, and the bbc just got knocked the fuck out.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: lostsuitcase]
    #2293307 - 02/02/04 05:33 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Oh? You can prove the Hutton report was fixed?

Please show us the evidence.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinelostsuitcase
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2293348 - 02/02/04 05:58 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

what are you talking about??? the hutton report is obviously wrong on many accounts, but I dont understand how your statement relates to mine, please clarify.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: lostsuitcase]
    #2293363 - 02/02/04 06:14 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

My understanding is the Hutton report faulted the BBC and cleared Blair of "sexing" up the report.

Am I mistaken? If so please demonstrate.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinelostsuitcase
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2293397 - 02/02/04 07:08 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

yes, blair sexxed up the report. he said Iraq had the ability to fire WMDs at britain in 45 minutes, when he did not. actually, thats not even sexxing up, thats a total lie.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,211
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: lostsuitcase]
    #2294449 - 02/02/04 04:49 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

And you can prove he didn't believe the claim?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2294463 - 02/02/04 04:57 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

believing it has nothing to do with it - relying on extremely questionable data does


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,211
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: ]
    #2294472 - 02/02/04 05:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Actually, it has everything to do with it.

If he knowingly made a false statement, that's a lie.

If he believed the statement to be true, that isn't a lie.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2294581 - 02/02/04 05:48 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

And if he claims he believed it, while intentionally lying? you can't prove he didn't believe it,..... :rolleyes:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlinelostsuitcase
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2294646 - 02/02/04 06:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

it doesnt matter if he lied or not, the fact is, it was an inherent untruth and falcification.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: lostsuitcase]
    #2294726 - 02/02/04 06:23 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

thats a total lie



Then since you don't know if he truly lied, by your definition you are a liar.

A lie is only a lie if the person telling it knows it is untrue. If it is believed to be a true statement and is shown later not to be true, it is an error.




Can you demonstrate that he KNEW it to be a lie?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2294753 - 02/02/04 06:30 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

how does it matter if he lied or not? He trusted baseless information- if he believed it, then he is simply an idiot- never publicly announce something that you are not CERTAIN of. So I guess it does sort of matter- in deciding whether he's an idiot or merely a liar


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: ]
    #2294825 - 02/02/04 06:52 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You've read all the information? All of it? Even the classified stuff?

No? Then you are speaking from your sphincter.

He reads what his "spies" provide for him and makes his decisions based on that. If the people that provided him with the info were wrong, that does not make Blair a liar, any more than if someone gave you info and you made a decision based on it which was later shown to be wrong.

If you've hired people to work for you and they believe the info they pass along, and you then make a decision based on it how does that make you an idiot?

Frankly, too many are too quick to toss around words they seem to have no clue as to the definition of.

I find that sad.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: ]
    #2294854 - 02/02/04 07:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Assuming for the sake of argument that the information the intelligence agencies (including the intelligence agencies of virtually every country in the world) were delivering was in fact "baseless", that makes pretty much everybody involved in Iraq -- including Iraqi military commanders -- a sucker.

Clinton believed (and still believes) Hussein hadn't destroyed all of his WMD stocks prior to Bush's ultimatum. So did France, Germany, and the entire UN security council. So did the UNSCOM weapons inspectors. So did Hussein's own military commanders.

As Kay says, so far there have been no stockpiles of ready-to-go bio and chem weaponry found within Iraq's borders. That doesn't mean they weren't there up until the day before the invasion. It also doesn't mean they aren't still there somewhere. If Hussein could bury entire squadrons of jet fighters out in the sands (remember that?) he would have little difficulty burying a few truckloads of bio and/or chem cannisters.

Of course, it is also possible that he quietly destroyed them all without telling anyone at some point before the invasion; scrupulously avoiding providing the proof of said destruction which would have allowed him to forestall the invasion that deposed him. This is the best case scenario. If he didn't destroy them all, let's hope the ones who eventually find them are the right people.

pinky


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: Phred]
    #2294901 - 02/02/04 07:24 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

generally its the person who makes the allegations that must have proof. Alot were officially destroyed, many were chemicals with shelf-life. Either way it is extremely unlikely he had any program capable of offensive ability. He may have left some 'missing' so that his powerhungry neigboors didn't invade him.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: Phred]
    #2295015 - 02/02/04 08:19 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Iraq was told to account for and get rid of 100% of its weapons- seeing as how that's damn near impossible once they've buried weapons randomnly, it's unrealistic to expect that of them.. Most weapons were accounted for- some old malfunctioning weapons still existed. The fact is that no one has any *proof* of any active wmds, nor their location. Faulty data is not excuse for war

Hell, Hussein thought he still had some weapons left- doesn't matter who thinks there are weapons when they have no clue as to where the weapons actually are.


and luvdem-
I have no problem with Blair acting on his data. I do a have a problem when he announces something like "The Iraqis could probably shoot us with WMDs right now!!! The only way to make sure everyone here doesn't die is to go invade Iraq. Right now. Cmooon people"

He is a fool to have said anything close to that without ANY *proof*, and he is a liar if he knew his source was unreliable but announced his plans anyway. Remember Colin Powell showing everyone satellite images of "weapons factories" in Iraq? Pictures and assumptions mean nothing unless you create a meaning for them. Using data based on pictures and conjectures to go to war is incredibly brash and stupid. Some war that was


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: ]
    #2295209 - 02/02/04 09:33 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Morrowind writes:

Iraq was told to account for and get rid of 100% of its weapons- seeing as how that's damn near impossible once they've buried weapons randomnly, it's unrealistic to expect that of them.

Who advised them to bury them at all, much less bury them "randomly"? Refresh my memory here -- was it the UN or Bush or Blair who suggested it would be a smart political move for Hussein to hide deadly substances then forget where they were hidden?

If you produce the stuff, test it, inventory it, store it, etc. why on earth should you not be expected to keep track of it?

Most weapons were accounted for-

I suggest you read a laundry list of the quantities Iraq was known to have -- and that's just the stuff they were caught with and forced to own up to, let alone anything we never found out about. And anyone who thinks there was stuff we never found out about should read the news -- particularly how the scope of Libya's and Iran's (and North Korea's, for that matter) weapons program went completely undetected.

But even if we discuss only the known stuff, we're talking in some cases about tens of thousands of liters of it, some of which can kill in amounts the size of the period at the end of this sentence (i.e. VX). If you can account for 95 per cent of forty thousand liters, that leaves two thousand liters still to go. Considering that something as crude as a few letter-sized envelopes containing less than a gram each of anthrax dust (and anthrax is like aspirin in toxicity compared to VX or Tabun or Sarin) managed to kill people who did nothing more than work in a mailroom, I think the existence of several thousand liters of far deadlier stuff is cause for concern...

...particularly if Hussein himself had lost track of it, but the Iraqi shlubs in charge of the burial detail who make sixty bucks a month remember where they hid it.

"Let me get this straight, Mr. Al-Qaeda dude. If I tell you where I buried those cannisters you'll pay me fifteen million shekels? And the only ones who will suffer are godless infidels? Hmmm... let me think about this for a while..."

- some old malfunctioning weapons still existed.

Really? How do you know how old they were? How do you know they were "malfunctioning"? Where were they?

Hell, Hussein thought he still had some weapons left-

If even Hussein thought he had some, how does it make Blair and Bush fools for thinking the same thing? I don't get it.

He is a fool to have said anything close to that without ANY *proof*, and he is a liar if he knew his source was unreliable but announced his plans anyway.

Apparently his source was no less reliable than Hussein's.

How can you say Bush and Blair knew their intelligence reports were mistaken, if even the ones producing the reports thought they were correct?

pinky


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Well its about time this hit the mainstream!!!!! [Re: Phred]
    #2295493 - 02/02/04 10:35 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Everywhere I look I see Bush supporters in denial like a bunch of junkies over the WMD issue.

Give it up. We were lied to and misled.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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