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OfflineSpecialEd
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Action before thinking?
    #2287493 - 01/30/04 05:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Say you want to make a big change. Which is better?

  • Act your way into thinking right?

    or

  • Think your way into acting right?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: SpecialEd] * 1
    #2287589 - 01/30/04 06:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Act before thinking.

I had a counselor once who told me that if you act in ways that you know are right, even though you don't feel like it, eventually the mind will follow.

Or, in other words, "fake it until you make it".


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: Frog]
    #2287779 - 01/30/04 07:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I acted like I was incredibly wealthy. Stayed at the finest hotels, lived in a penthouse apartment, bought an expensive car, took trophy girlfriends to elegant restaurants and soon, very soon, I was... broke.

So much for that theory.  :rolleyes:


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (01/30/04 11:47 PM)


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: Swami]
    #2287793 - 01/30/04 07:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I acted like I was incredibly wealthy. Stayed at the finest hotels, lived in a penthous apartment, bought an expensive car, took trophy girlfriends to elegant restaurants and soon, very soon, I was... broke.

So much for that theory.





Nice try.

If your goal was to become wealthy, then appropriate actions would include saving money and investing it. You wouldn't just spend lavishly in attempt to become wealthy.

I agree with frog. It is better to take action first. A cigarette smoker wants to quit. Which is more effective?

1. Throw away the remainder of his pack. Stop smoking for a few days and then note your improved feeling.

2. Spend a few weeks thinking about why yo should quit and then stop.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2287817 - 01/30/04 08:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

SpecialEd: If your goal was to become wealthy, then appropriate actions would include saving money and investing it. You wouldn't just spend lavishly in attempt to become wealthy.

Right... and there is no such thing as those who inherit money, win the lotto, have "beautiful"/"sexy" (read: marketable) bodies...
Face it, not every rich person saved and invested to become rich.

When it comes to the order of action and thought... there is no particular sequence that is applicable to all situations.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2287853 - 01/30/04 08:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"When it comes to the order of action and thought... there is no particular sequence that is applicable to all situations."

I suppose it depends on the situation. Getting rich is a good example of thinking about it first, and then making plans as to your course of action to accomplish that goal, and then embarking on a course of action geared toward attaining it.

Another example is if someone wants to be a doctor, or lawyer, then you think out first how to achieve that goal, and then act on it.

Something like getting out of depression would be the type of thing that would take acting first, in order to then make it a natural part of your mental processes. I'm not talking about a biological or chemical imbalance, however.

I have been depressed a few times in my life, and I force myself to do things anyways, and eventually I notice I'm not depressed any more. You can't "think" your way out of depression.

Quitting smoking, as Ed brought up, is another good example.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2287881 - 01/30/04 08:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Right... and there is no such thing as those who inherit money, win the lotto, have "beautiful"/"sexy" (read: marketable) bodies...
Face it, not every rich person saved and invested to become rich.




True that!  It seems as though you did not understand my point.  I was providing counterexamples to Swami's post. 

The thing Swami failed to grasp was you don't just have to take action, you must take the right action.  According to his logic (?), a fat person wants to become skinny, so they start eating like a thin person with a high metabolism.  They eat a pack of oreos and a gallon of chocolate milk, but they don't lose weight!?!

Then your post would read:  Right, and nobody ever gets liver cancer and loses a bunch of weight.  Face it, not all people that lose weight went on a diet. :lol:


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2288096 - 01/30/04 10:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

And I was merely giving you a counterexample... hehehe
But I thought I made that clear with this:
When it comes to the order of action and thought... there is no particular sequence that is applicable to all situations.


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Anonymous

Re: Action before thinking? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2288116 - 01/30/04 10:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2288123 - 01/30/04 10:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It seemed like a nonpoint, but now I understand. :blush:


Quote:

When it comes to the order of action and thought... there is no particular sequence that is applicable to all situations.




Obviously.  The scope of the discussion was instituting personal change.  The aim was to determine if there was a consensus as to which sequence worked the best.  Merely pointing out that there is no universal adds little to the discussion.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2288158 - 01/30/04 10:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Obviously. The scope of the discussion was instituting personal change. The aim was to determine if there was a consensus as to which sequence worked the best. Merely pointing out that there is no universal adds little to the discussion.



So, are you searching for anecdotal evidence or scientific evidence of which sequence works best?
Is it your wish to list of EVERY possible situation (in which the sequence matters) and then indicate which comes first?

I thought I was saving you time. If you narrow it down to a few particular situations, it would be alot easier to discuss.


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Anonymous

Re: Action before thinking? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2288171 - 01/30/04 10:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2288188 - 01/30/04 10:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'd say it depends on the risks of the action


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2288201 - 01/30/04 10:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I suppose I am looking for anecdotal evidence.

In my psychology class, the teacher gave a problem. A girl thinks that her value is in sex. She goes drinking every weekend and sleeps around and it has a negative impact on her self esteem. She seeks counseling. Should the counselor say "Stay in this weekend. Don't think about it, just do it. Afterwards, think about how you feel." or should she say, "Don't change your behavior yet, spend some time thinking about what you can do." Which would be more effective?

I think it would be more effective to act your way into thinking right not only in this situation but in any situation of personal change. Your thoughts?


I am interested in your anecdotal evidence MM, but only the good stuff.


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Anonymous

Re: Action before thinking? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2288267 - 01/30/04 11:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2288288 - 01/30/04 11:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think there is a subtle, underlying assumption we're all making in this thread: some (at least) actions can be performed without thinking. It is also important to note that it may be true that not all actions can be separated from thought. Furthermore, we must ask ourselves - what parameters qualify an action as an action-without-thought?


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: ]
    #2288291 - 01/30/04 11:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

True. I wasn't really thinking about the Long Term. I was thinking that the first step is by far the hardest to take. Often times, people are paralyzed with fear into inaction. Sometimes you just need to get that snowball rolling down the hill. That's why I was thinking that action before thinking would be beneficial. It reminds me of the quote:

"More is lost by indecision than the wrong decision."


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2288301 - 01/30/04 11:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Most of the thinking we do is confused and contradictory, if we can get past that, there will be direct action not based on ideals, desires, or impulse. It will just come naturally, like kicking a soccer ball. When you kick a soccer ball, you don't think about every little move your body and leg has to make, you just do it.  :thumbup:


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2288309 - 01/30/04 11:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I think there is a subtle, underlying assumption we're all making in this thread: some (at least) actions can be performed without thinking. It is also important to note that it may be true that not all actions can be separated from thought. Furthermore, we must ask ourselves - what parameters qualify an action as an action-without-thought?




Good points, but the orignal phrases lose a lot of their zing when you start to chip away at the duality. I think for the sake of this discussion, the two choices are defined well enough.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Action before thinking? [Re: chodamunky]
    #2288311 - 01/30/04 11:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes!


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