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InvisibleautomanM
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Registered: 09/18/03
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if you started a country from scratch...
    #2284846 - 01/29/04 07:35 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

how would you set up the government? lets say you have an island with no residents, no laws, nothing. what type of government would you set up? what would you include in your constitution? how would you set up the criminal justice system? etc...

parameters: the island is 2000 square miles, has no need for a defensive force (army, navy, etc), tropical island, and you are starting from scratch.


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: automan]
    #2284886 - 01/29/04 07:52 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

no killing. no stealing. try not to die

edit: break a law- get thrown off the island


Edited by Morrowind (01/29/04 07:53 PM)


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: automan]
    #2284896 - 01/29/04 07:57 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

We don't need no stinking government.

Actually, I would prefer to set things up with an explicit contract for anyone wanting to emigrate, probably organized roughly along the lines of a homeowner's association (no 'social contract' which is actually no contract at all but a rationalization for the existence of a government) but without all the rules - basically anarchist with the caveat that no one may initiate force against another. An individual wishing to become a citizen would purchase common stock in the country, this would give them voting rights as a shareholder. There would be a deposit placed in an interest bearing account for the purpose of travel expenses to leave should either the citizen or the association deem it is in their best interest to terminate the contract, either because of a breech or voluntary seperation. Anyone who broke the convenent of civilization would be subject to immediate banishment (hence the travel expenses) and forfeiture of real property on the island (which would be sold at auction, the proceeds going to the association/shareholders).

An example of one of the few rules... pollution would be considered trespass and hence would fall under the umbrella of 'initiation of force.'

I could go more in depth, but I'm logging out now.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: Evolving]
    #2285659 - 01/30/04 12:16 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

say a person breaks a major law 100 years from now. you cant banish a citizen. no country would take him because he isnt the responsability of any other country. how would you punish a person that was convicted of involentary manslaughter? would you have prisons?


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: automan]
    #2285663 - 01/30/04 12:17 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2286006 - 01/30/04 02:45 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

that game doesnt go into any details. you cant have no income tax and no prison system, for instance.


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: automan]
    #2286262 - 01/30/04 04:50 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Does your island have all the basic resources? Can it support a autonomous economy, and if so, at what technological level?

Suppose it has resources like fresh water, fertile land, iron, tin, copper, wood , clay and stone, I'd start a medieval type society, on a technological level at least. The economy would have to be self-sustaining, requiring no contact from or with the outside world. People would find which trade they're good in, and pursue that for their entire lives. There would only be community property, no private ownership of land. Everyone would do their part, and allow everyone else to enjoy a content life.
There would be religious freedom, with every major religion (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Shintoism, Confucianism, etc) having a reprentative. The goal would be to allow everyone to believe what they want, and to practice what they believe in with a community of like-minded and equally (non-)religious individuals.
Legislation would consist of three rules: no land ownership, no application of force save in mutually consented duels (in which one could only loose goods and honour, since land cannot be wagered) and no theft.
I guess what it would come down to is a way of life that borders on the Amish's, with the fashion highlights seen at your local Renaissance faire, and the political, legal and religious freedom the U.S. were intended to have when they were colonised.
It would require a while to get used to, coming from this post-post-modern society, and a paradigm shift from caring all about oneself to caring about the greater good of the community.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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InvisibleTODAY
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Registered: 09/25/03
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: automan]
    #2286288 - 01/30/04 05:08 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

"I'm going to grow some pot and drink coctails served in coconut halves on the beach while tanning. Make it happen."

These are the words I'd tell my wrecked crewmates upon being stranded on the island. i don't care how they do it but they must grant my terms or they get kicked in the sack.


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ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2286321 - 01/30/04 05:49 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

alan, would you allow migrants to come after the initial population? would you allow banks? what kind of penal system would you implement? what would you do with homeless after the population reached above the limits of what you could grow? how would you handle lazy people or the handicapped and mentally ill? would you tax income?


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: automan]
    #2286792 - 01/30/04 12:30 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

automan said:
say a person breaks a major law 100 years from now. you cant banish a citizen. no country would take him because he isnt the responsability of any other country.



Banish him (or her), if he can't find a place of refuge, tough. Let him float on the oceans till he perishes or finds his own island.

Quote:

how would you punish a person that was convicted of involentary manslaughter?



Do you want me to write a whole Penal Code book right on the spot? These things can be worked out via common law. Juries will decide appropriate measure for handling individual cases.

Quote:

would you have prisons?



Jails for holding people till trial. Punishment is not the most efficient means of dealing with transgressions against another. Restitution and protecting innocent people should be primary. Juries can decide appropriate restitution and if the convicted person is deemed a continued threat to peaceful individuals, he should be banished. Why should members of the community including people who have already suffered at the hands of criminals have to care and house someone who's behavior violates the rules of civil society?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2286979 - 01/30/04 01:58 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

no land ownership, no application of force save in mutually consented duels (in which one could only loose goods and honour, since land cannot be wagered) and no theft.




I agree with no land ownership when and only when you start a country from scratch and you are at the point of not only creating the country, but also creating a culture which the further political and economical system could be based.


--------------------


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: Shroomerious]
    #2287143 - 01/30/04 02:59 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I agree with no land ownership




would a country lease the land to the people? if no one owns land, then the government ultimately has control over is... sounds like a bad idea to me. how would it work in the long run?


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: automan]
    #2287224 - 01/30/04 03:28 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

automan said:
would a country lease the land to the people?



I think a good answer to land ownership and taxation on the land could be found in the ideas of Henry George. Basically, a person pays a land rent on the value of the land only, improvements are not taxed (unlike property taxes where I currently live - a person is charged for improvements upon the land as well as the assessed value of the land). In George's system there would no be taxes, only land rent.

Quote:

if no one owns land, then the government ultimately has control over is... sounds like a bad idea to me. how would it work in the long run?



In reality the government already has ultimate control over your land anyway. Land ownership is contingent upon you paying tribute to the government. Try not paying property taxes and watch armed government agents come to seize 'your land.' Bottom line, you really don't own it you are only led to believe that you do.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: Evolving]
    #2287241 - 01/30/04 03:36 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

i thoroughly understand the violation of our rights in america. i'm not wanting to know how people would modify the USA. i want to know how people would start from scratch to make an nation that could last centuries.
i believe that land rights are fundamental to the wellbeing of my citizens. there would be no land tax as we know it, only an initial purchasing tax. that way, if you worked your ass off or was an imigrant that came and made something of yourself, you could take solice in that you just purchased a piece of land that your family can take refuge in, forever.

does anyone think that a constitution monarchy can be based in liberitarianism?


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: automan]
    #2287248 - 01/30/04 03:39 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

automan said:
does anyone think that a constitution monarchy can be based in liberitarianism?



Seems possible, individual rights might be more secure than in a democracy. Reminds me of a book by Hans Herman Hoppe, "Democracy, The God That Failed."


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: automan]
    #2287255 - 01/30/04 03:44 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Goverment managing the land, when it is elected from the people, and the party cadres are nice people is not a bad thing. Especially when the basic ideas that I am talking about are mainly communistic.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: automan]
    #2287257 - 01/30/04 03:44 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

If I were starting a country from scratch with just an island like that and all...

I would basically just run it with ONE MAJOR RULE:
















COMMON FUCKIN SENSE. mmmk
:wink:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: automan]
    #2287258 - 01/30/04 03:45 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

if it was just me? Why would i need a government? I would just live, and have my place.


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What?


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: Shroomerious]
    #2287261 - 01/30/04 03:48 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
Goverment managing the land, when it is elected from the people, and the party cadres are nice people is not a bad thing. Especially when the basic ideas that I am talking about are mainly communistic.




communism on a large scale is flawed because humans are flawed.


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: if you started a country from scratch... [Re: automan]
    #2287291 - 01/30/04 03:57 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I thought we were talking on a scale of an island and also I said basic, not all....


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