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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: theonlysun81]
    #22839075 - 01/29/16 04:04 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

well the scale should be determined by what's valuable, while considering safety regs. ie not solely profit, that's for certain. but pretty much, what's valuable, you utilize. that should be perfectly obvious.

just not maybe to Machiavelli, over there.

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: koods]
    #22839076 - 01/29/16 04:05 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
no, what i mean is...you don't utilize some land and then not others...go in either 100% or none at all, is what i am getting at.



No. You use some land and preserve the rest. Why all or nothing? That makes no sense.



read my above post.

not everything is so literal. i know you aren't really implying anything like that, i'm just saying...people gotta always take things so literal all the time. :lol:

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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: theonlysun81]
    #22839086 - 01/29/16 04:07 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

theonlysun81 said:
So the majority of the beef you eat is generated in the Midwest and the East. Most of the beef, at least here in Nevada (Bundy) and I would put money on Arizona and New Mexico(where a lot of these ranchers are from) gets sold over seas because its not good quality meat. It's kind of shitty. There are some good herds, but it mostly gets shipped out of town. But, no most ranchers do a lot of work, just not the ones in Oregon. They're definitely just trying to chill on the range.

Honestly dude, you have no idea what is going on. You can't just graze cattle for free, or everyone would be throwing out cattle there. And these people want to graze the same numbers their families were in the early 1800s so they can have some type of glory, but that just isn't sustainable. In Monitor Valley (where the sagebrush rebbellion started) has little to no forage in it. And the little forage there isn't accessable to cattle do to the Wyoming Big Sage there.

You're living in the 18002 brother




Yes there's a lack of forage to manage such large herds i already said that, the answer is either downsizing or getting 'access' to land that has it, which apparently the government has.  So its not that its not there, its that they just don't have access to it, or at least not without paying a price that they apparently feel is unreasonable, which i don't think anybody should really comment on unless you are an actual dam rancher out there.  From a unbias point of view you have to take their word that its unreasonable unless you are knowledge in that field of work and their exact area, costs, ect.  Then realize this is a part of food production, its a big operation with big costs and overhead, its more important to keep farms running than to let them fall and crumble, then 'hope' someone replaces them.  The train is already running, better to fix it than let it run off the tracks, if we can save big banks we can save some farmers.  Get some smart people in there to find an answer, instead we just bring guns?  Shit isn't working, they are telling us it isn't working, get someone in there to find an answer that works for everyone.

now the gov may be buying land to help protect it from turning into a desert, thats all fine and dandy but a key part of that is wild life.  vast herds roamed hundreds of years ago and what changed is we put up fences, roads, and killed most of them off, then magically the forests dried up, wild life help keep things going by spreading nutrients around, water, ect.  and speaking of water, the water companys sucking up all the water is a huge part of this problem too, they are draining the reserves, or preventing the reserves from getting refilled by bottling it, stop the bottling and it might not fix everything but it will help.  but then u have fracking, and if those water levels rise to much, the little bird in my head suggests those horror storys about fracking will double or triple


--------------------
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Offlinetheonlysun81
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: koods]
    #22839094 - 01/29/16 04:09 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

This is true Wayne Hage owes upwards of 3 million in grazing fees. Who know what the Bundy's owe, they stopped monitoring him cause he was taking shots at LHAs.


--------------------

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Offlinetheonlysun81
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #22839097 - 01/29/16 04:10 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

makaveli8x8 said:
Quote:

theonlysun81 said:
So the majority of the beef you eat is generated in the Midwest and the East. Most of the beef, at least here in Nevada (Bundy) and I would put money on Arizona and New Mexico(where a lot of these ranchers are from) gets sold over seas because its not good quality meat. It's kind of shitty. There are some good herds, but it mostly gets shipped out of town. But, no most ranchers do a lot of work, just not the ones in Oregon. They're definitely just trying to chill on the range.

Honestly dude, you have no idea what is going on. You can't just graze cattle for free, or everyone would be throwing out cattle there. And these people want to graze the same numbers their families were in the early 1800s so they can have some type of glory, but that just isn't sustainable. In Monitor Valley (where the sagebrush rebbellion started) has little to no forage in it. And the little forage there isn't accessable to cattle do to the Wyoming Big Sage there.

You're living in the 18002 brother




Yes there's a lack of forage to manage such large herds i already said that, the answer is either downsizing or getting 'access' to land that has it, which apparently the government has.  So its not that its not there, its that they just don't have access to it, or at least not without paying a price that they apparently feel is unreasonable, which i don't think anybody should really comment on unless you are an actual dam rancher out there.  From a unbias point of view you have to take their word that its unreasonable unless you are knowledge in that field of work and their exact area, costs, ect.  Then realize this is a part of food production, its a big operation with big costs and overhead, its more important to keep farms running than to let them fall and crumble, then 'hope' someone replaces them.  The train is already running, better to fix it than let it run off the tracks, if we can save big banks we can save some farmers.  Get some smart people in there to find an answer, instead we just bring guns?  Shit isn't working, they are telling us it isn't working, get someone in there to find an answer that works for everyone.

now the gov may be buying land to help protect it from turning into a desert, thats all fine and dandy but a key part of that is wild life.  vast herds roamed hundreds of years ago and what changed is we put up fences, roads, and killed most of them off, then magically the forests dried up, wild life help keep things going by spreading nutrients around, water, ect.  and speaking of water, the water companys sucking up all the water is a huge part of this problem too, they are draining the reserves, or preventing the reserves from getting refilled by bottling it, stop the bottling and it might not fix everything but it will help.  but then u have fracking, and if those water levels rise to much, the little bird in my head suggests those horror storys about fracking will double or triple




Dude, I work in Nevada. If you tried to reduce their herd numbers you know what they do. Take over wildlife refugees. The government charges 1.30$ per AUM. The state charges 15$. Private charges upwards of 30$. Don't get me wrong I've thought of buying a couple of these 40 acre parcels bulldozing all the sage, putting down compost/mushroom soil, seeding it, truck water from the Great Lakes and water it. Than charge 40$ an AUM. I would make soooo much money. With little actual work. Just farming grass. And I wouldn't need water rights either


--------------------

Edited by theonlysun81 (01/29/16 04:11 PM)

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Offlinetheonlysun81
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: theonlysun81]
    #22839120 - 01/29/16 04:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

If you read a lot of the journals of people who went into Nevada (and I'm going to limit this to Nevada cause its kinda an extreme, but the principle applies elsewhere) in the early 1800s they documented that the rangeland was 75-90% grasslands. Now its 90-95% sagebrush and bareground. Although there are some really strikingly beautiful valleys near mines and in canyons that are too hard to push cattle into.


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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22839131 - 01/29/16 04:16 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Bottling? Wtf are you talking about 80% of western water resources go to agriculture and maintaining the land. That's the problem. It's not sustainable.

We know what happens when we let private owners do what they want with their land... The dust bowl was a human made disaster that occurred because people abused the land.


--------------------
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Offlinetheonlysun81
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: koods]
    #22839144 - 01/29/16 04:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Bottling? Wtf are you talking about 80% of western water resources go to agriculture and maintaining the land. That's the problem. It's not sustainable.

We know what happens when we let private owners do what they want with their land... The dust bowl was a human made disaster that occurred because people abused the land.



You know what I think is funny too. They agriculture they use the water for, mostly alfalfa, gets sold to China. Our enemy. So we're dewatering our lands to sell alfalfa to China. LOL


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: koods]
    #22839163 - 01/29/16 04:26 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Bottling? Wtf are you talking about 80% of western water resources go to agriculture and maintaining the land. That's the problem. It's not sustainable.

We know what happens when we let private owners do what they want with their land... The dust bowl was a human made disaster that occurred because people abused the land.



They didn't know what they were doing then and Nevada is already a dust bowl.  False analogy.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: theonlysun81]
    #22839167 - 01/29/16 04:27 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

theonlysun81 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Bottling? Wtf are you talking about 80% of western water resources go to agriculture and maintaining the land. That's the problem. It's not sustainable.

We know what happens when we let private owners do what they want with their land... The dust bowl was a human made disaster that occurred because people abused the land.



You know what I think is funny too. They agriculture they use the water for, mostly alfalfa, gets sold to China. Our enemy. So we're dewatering our lands to sell alfalfa to China. LOL



So what?


--------------------

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Offlinetheonlysun81
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22839171 - 01/29/16 04:27 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

theonlysun81 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Bottling? Wtf are you talking about 80% of western water resources go to agriculture and maintaining the land. That's the problem. It's not sustainable.

We know what happens when we let private owners do what they want with their land... The dust bowl was a human made disaster that occurred because people abused the land.



You know what I think is funny too. They agriculture they use the water for, mostly alfalfa, gets sold to China. Our enemy. So we're dewatering our lands to sell alfalfa to China. LOL



So what?





Well I guess we can buy water with the money we get from somewhere else but that just sounds like slavery with extra steps


--------------------

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Offlinetheonlysun81
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #22839177 - 01/29/16 04:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

koods said:
Bottling? Wtf are you talking about 80% of western water resources go to agriculture and maintaining the land. That's the problem. It's not sustainable.

We know what happens when we let private owners do what they want with their land... The dust bowl was a human made disaster that occurred because people abused the land.



They didn't know what they were doing then and Nevada is already a dust bowl.  False analogy.



And Nevada isn't a dust bowl yet. Its mostly Basin and Range, which is dope country. But the Mohave is coming up. And if it is a dust bowl, its the ranchers/cattles fault and we shouldn't be perpetuating them so they can relive the glory days again


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #22839185 - 01/29/16 04:31 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

koods said:
Bottling? Wtf are you talking about 80% of western water resources go to agriculture and maintaining the land. That's the problem. It's not sustainable.

We know what happens when we let private owners do what they want with their land... The dust bowl was a human made disaster that occurred because people abused the land.



They didn't know what they were doing then and Nevada is already a dust bowl.  False analogy.




Yeah we know better now. That's why the federal government manages the land, highly regulates its use and doesn't hand it over to private ownership. :cookiemonster:


--------------------
NotSheekle said
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: koods]
    #22839220 - 01/29/16 04:39 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

The federal government is not competent to manage land.  Why do you think there are catastrophic wildfires when there only used to be small culling fires?  Ponderosa pines evolved to survive occasional fires and did fine until the feds decided that any fire was bad.  So what you ended up with, when the brush didn't periodically burn off, was huge fires that managed to decimate even the ponderosa pine bark but also sterilized the soil.  This also left them susceptible to the bark beetle.  Greta job of managing by the federal government.  Do you know where the federal government doesn't manage the land?  Where the dust bowl was.  They get zero credit for there not being another one.  Private interests are much better managers.  The feds are retards.  But so are the deadbeats who think they don't need to pay their fees.  A clusterfuck of complete assholes on all sides.


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22839232 - 01/29/16 04:43 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

No. That's your ideology clouding your judgement.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: koods]
    #22839247 - 01/29/16 04:48 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

No it isn't.  Drive through Idaho and you will see the devastation wrought by the federal government's management.  And just exactly how are they managing the Nevada desert?  And why don't they charge market value and then, whoa whoa whoa, collect even that meager sum from the people who use the land for grazing?  Do you think a private owner would stand for that crap.

The federal government is inept in most ways.  That's why they should take over health care.


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Offlinetheonlysun81
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22839248 - 01/29/16 04:48 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

think about it. you have a bunch of people working in the same place doing the same thing. someone needs to manage that or disputes would erupt. if the BLM wasn't there, than the ranchers would be fighting each other. honestly the BLM is like batman. and the feds weren't regulating how the farmers in the dust bowl farmed. The states were.


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Offlinetheonlysun81
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22839256 - 01/29/16 04:51 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No it isn't.  Drive through Idaho and you will see the devastation wrought by the federal government's management.  And just exactly how are they managing the Nevada desert?  And why don't they charge market value and then, whoa whoa whoa, collect even that meager sum from the people who use the land for grazing?  Do you think a private owner would stand for that crap.

The federal government is inept in most ways.  That's why they should take over health care.




Well, if you look at anectdotal evidence from explorers who came to the west, they said it was mostly grass. the sage didn't come in until the cattle did. Than sometime in the 40s the ranchers were like shit this isn't good, so the Taylor grazing act was made. than somewhere in the 60s and 70s the ranchers forgot about the Taylor grazing act, remembered how they used to masterbate to the founding fathers and decided that anyone who would trade freedom for forage deserve neither freedom nor forage


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: theonlysun81]
    #22839257 - 01/29/16 04:51 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Nobody was regulating how they farmed in the dust bowl era.  Here's how you manage it.  Sell it to private people.  They will lease it as they see fit to whoever will pay the most for grazing rights.  People who don't pay can fuck off back to the Pub.  Easy Peasy.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Let the blood and arrests start to flow in Oregon [Re: theonlysun81]
    #22839269 - 01/29/16 04:53 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

theonlysun81 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No it isn't.  Drive through Idaho and you will see the devastation wrought by the federal government's management.  And just exactly how are they managing the Nevada desert?  And why don't they charge market value and then, whoa whoa whoa, collect even that meager sum from the people who use the land for grazing?  Do you think a private owner would stand for that crap.

The federal government is inept in most ways.  That's why they should take over health care.




Well, if you look at anectdotal evidence from explorers who came to the west, they said it was mostly grass. the sage didn't come in until the cattle did. Than sometime in the 40s the ranchers were like shit this isn't good, so the Taylor grazing act was made. than somewhere in the 60s and 70s the ranchers forgot about the Taylor grazing act, remembered how they used to masterbate to the founding fathers and decided that anyone who would trade freedom for forage deserve neither freedom nor forage



Well that's a little kooky.  Are you saying it is useless for grazing now?  If so then why are they sending cattle to graze there?


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