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Invisibleiiilil
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Registered: 01/08/16
Posts: 369
Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22818968 - 01/24/16 02:56 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I'd first like to say : Very nice systems view on the structuring and flow of things pertaining to the brain ! Very nice reflections on evolution and overall great reflections ^_^.

Breaking apart your post into the following parts : 
> Systems summary
  * Depth perception (.. People in the distance being smaller)
  * Unconscious
> Evolutionary commentary
> Beyond perception
  * Matrix commentary
---------------------------------------------------------

> Systems summary
Reply : This was solid. I can't say anything in manner of critique of it.

* Depth perception (.. People in the distance being smaller and it not being true to the nature of things)
Reply : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_field . The vectorized light field that terminates on your eye is such that things further away cast a 'smaller' light field. This is true to the nature of light.

* Unconscious
Reply :  Having no definition of consciousness, it is not clear what is meant by unconscious processes especially ones that reside within a conscious entity. For practical purposes, I get what you're saying. However, there is no clear percentage or number that should be assigned to what portion is conscious/unconscious especially to such a degree that one gets bold enough to proclaim something like 90%. You can will yourself to be conscious of more clearly. So, there is no solid number . You reside at the seat of a system... To what degree you dabble with the control is up to you. There are many people who don't and are seemingly on biological auto-pilot but there is no one size fits all measure to this and I'd most definitely say its not 90%. I'm not sure why this number gets tossed around as it has absolutely no grounding besides being a wild subjective conjecture.

> Evolutionary commentary
Reply : Accurate reflections but it still says nothing of the evolutionary process, what it's purpose is, how it governs, at what granularity it governs at, to what end, and why the huge evolutionary leap in Humans. The biggest observation about Evolution is that we don't know much about it. So, one should restrict how far they apply it in way of understanding. Sure, you can note the observable functional uses of such features sets and variance and you're 100% spot on with your commentary. However, that states : what .. not why. There is no understanding as to the diversity of biological expression. The way feature sets balance and essentially cancel each other out. When I think of evolution I think of a system of order/progression of creation and there isn't much understood about it as that. We are venturing to understand it and are making good progress though :smile:

> Beyond perception (Matrix commentary)
Reply : Yes, you essentially sit at the seat of creation w.r.t to your own subjective experience and what a gift it is. To what degree people utilize it and understand it varies. There are many paths as such. However, at the core of your existence is the beautiful matter of creation. If all of creation 'the universe' was brought down to a point of infinite potential and you were given the keys, what would you do? What would you create? Creation is consequential. As you even reflected, perception occurs through contrast. What contrasts would you make? To what degree would they exist?

Now, close your eyes ... calm yourself and reflect on the capability you have to do this on a day to day basis. Are you not the embodiment of the grandness people philosophize about? And even then, with that gift, you can sit and choose to philosophize about creating... the infinite. Suppose i were to create... So, there you are .... accessing the most grand things of universe  without even realizing it.. but now hopefully you do.


Now, as to culture .. American culture .. and promotions of such journeys .. The issue is as you can clearly see it : conflicting interest.

Also, 'psychology/philosophy' are not endpoints of inquiry... They are just points that you move on from after you have a framework of pursuit.  You discover and then that feeds back to your psychology/philosophy and so on again and again.

Your very nicely worded commentary is being pursued at the scientific level :
http://phys.org/news/2015-05-spacetime-built-quantum-entanglement.html

Any discovered truth therein flows back to the psychology/philosophy that brought the nature of things into question in the first place.... So, it's a process and a feedback and it is occurring as it always has. Do you see it?


Edited by iiilil (01/24/16 03:04 PM)


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Invisibleiiilil
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Registered: 01/08/16
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Kurt]
    #22819010 - 01/24/16 03:06 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kurt said:
<snip>
My persuasion is it helps tremendously to get back to matter and form.. <snip>




I really liked your post Kurt ! ^_^


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: viktor]
    #22819318 - 01/24/16 04:42 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Yes, and everyone possesses an authentic self too. It's a matter of choosing to identify with it instead of identifying with the miserable, whinging, negative, stubborn self.

You know all this anyway. I don't know why you're asking me about it.




I actually don't know it and it's why I'm asking. I used to think I knew such things but I found, for myself, that I was just believing I was in a better space than others which I now have some doubts about.

All those attributes you consider negative are subjective as far as I can tell.  Nature seems to have a use for them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22819501 - 01/24/16 05:31 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Well, Nature has a use for your death, too. It will ease the pressure on the biosphere and your corpse will provide nutrition for worms and bacteria.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: viktor]
    #22819601 - 01/24/16 06:02 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Exactly. :thumbup:  I personally fear death but it's subjective.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22819644 - 01/24/16 06:16 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

It is. Ultimately you choose to fear death.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: viktor]
    #22819649 - 01/24/16 06:17 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I don't agree. I would rather not. I'm overwhelmed by that fear.  It's not a conscious choice at least.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22819716 - 01/24/16 06:34 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

You can only fear death if you choose to cling to the materialist illusion. People make a conscious choice to continue to do that.

Killing your false self is called 'letting go' because maintaining a false self requires a lot of energy. You have to be constantly afraid, for example.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: viktor]
    #22819762 - 01/24/16 06:50 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I don't agree with your POV.  My father was totally invested in his spiritual beliefs and yet I saw the fear when he was dying.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 6,563
Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: viktor] * 1
    #22822827 - 01/25/16 03:50 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Why do anything at all? Because we want to.

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
What would be an authentic self? How would you know if you were one?




An authentic self would be consciousness. If you are one then you know about it, there's no how involved.



An authentic self would be a conscience, you'd know this if you are entirely aware of your instinctive feelings, thoughts and ego and have accepted that they arise from a personal subjective origin.

Some people are not as aware of themselves and do not yet possess the emotional intelligence to label their emotional experiences and to fully understand the 'why' of their thoughts or actions.

Quote:

visitors said: "It is. Ultimately you choose to fear death."



I agree, I think death is inevitable so I'd rather not be wasting my time on fearing it.

To me your point sounds like the one of this example:
If I told two people to fuck off, one could laugh while the other cries.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (01/25/16 04:38 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective *DELETED* [Re: sudly]
    #22824311 - 01/25/16 09:16 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by laughingdog

Reason for deletion: why not



--------------------



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #22824335 - 01/25/16 09:22 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by laughingdog

Reason for deletion: not useful



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22824561 - 01/25/16 10:07 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Icelander
What are you afraid of?
Not getting anymore desires satisfied?
Or the unknown?
Or what they will say about you after you're gone?
the possibility of the process being painful?
or some other things?

My memory is so spotty my 'identity' is already a bit of a joke.





Maybe all of that and much more.  If you really want to understand where I'm coming from with DA take a few moments of your time and check out this link or this documentary you can watch on HULU.  Or read Ernest Becker's book Denial of Death.


http://www.tmt.missouri.edu/

http://transcendentalmedia.com/new/films/now-playing/flight-from-death-the-quest-for-immortality/
http://www.amazon.com/The-Denial-Death-Ernest-Becker/dp/0684832402


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/25/16 10:11 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 6,563
Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22824580 - 01/25/16 10:13 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)





Laughingdog said: "Sudly you seem confused about the meaning of "conscience"
the word pertains to guilt and morality---not awareness per se."





How so?

Quote:

"Conscience is an aptitude, faculty, intuition or judgment that assists in distinguishing right from wrong. Moral judgment may derive from values or norms (principles and rules)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscience




I don't see how one can be self aware without genuine honesty.

Conscience to me is a level of genuine personal integrity and the ability to disambiguate between a truth and lie.

I believe conscience consists of individual morality between good and bad as well as the thoughts and feelings that come with guilt, compassion and a great deal of all the other emotions we can experience.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22824687 - 01/25/16 10:33 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Icelander, you refer me to theoretical material, not your feelings.

I ask how do people like Socrates, who calmed his weeping disciples, before drinking the hemlock overcome this anxiety.

Even today there is a hemlock society, scince American society is so phobic of death it keeps brain dead people on life support for years.

To avoid this people get lawyers to help them write "A living will (also called an advance directive )usually provides specific directives about the course of treatment that is to be followed by healthcare providers and caregivers. In some cases a living will may forbid the use of various kinds of burdensome medical treatment. It may also be used to express wishes about the use or foregoing of food and water, if supplied via tubes or other medical devices. The living will is used only if the individual has become unable to give informed consent or refusal due to incapacity. A living will can be very specific or very general. An example of a statement sometimes found in a living will is: “If I suffer an incurable, irreversible illness, disease, or condition and my attending physician determines that my condition is terminal, I direct that life-sustaining measures that would serve only to prolong my dying be withheld or discontinued.”

Then there was Dr. Kevorkian. And the suicide statistics. How do Becker and co. account for all these folks that confront and face death without blinking? It almost seems you want to justify maintaining an unpleasant emotion (fear), which seems strange to me since you managed to control your internal state with body scanning.

I get that normal people seek pleasure and attempt to avoid all forms of discomfort constantly. But, as you already know, many other people also discipline themselves to achieve difficult goals that involve lots of discomfort, and accomplish great things as a result.


--------------------



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22826025 - 01/26/16 10:01 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

I answered your question about my feelings.  I have no more to say on this issue at this time unless it's with people informed on on the links I offered. That's a topic I'd be very interested in discussing.  However in my experience here almost no one is interested.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/26/16 10:40 AM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22826132 - 01/26/16 11:18 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
.... I was able to turn, at times, the intense nerve pain into a pleasurable vibration. It saved me.




well I still think that's cool.


--------------------



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22826141 - 01/26/16 11:26 AM (5 years, 9 months ago)

So do I. That hardly says it. :cool: I had to do it last night in fact and it worked once again.  I'm flaring today also but I have to basically be on my back with total focus to make it work. So I'll likely just suffer through this day as I'm in the middle of moving to my other  home and I have to get it done today and tomorrow.
I do try to breathe diaphragmatically as much as possible when I'm up and about.







--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/26/16 11:27 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22826670 - 01/26/16 02:54 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
.... I was able to turn, at times, the intense nerve pain into a pleasurable vibration. It saved me.




well I still think that's cool.




That is cool, not sure how tightening your diaphragm helps to quell nerve pain though.
Poppy seed tea is pretty good at relieving nerve pain too.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22826700 - 01/26/16 03:01 PM (5 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
So do I. That hardly says it. :cool: I had to do it last night in fact and it worked once again.  I'm flaring today also but I have to basically be on my back with total focus to make it work. So I'll likely just suffer through this day as I'm in the middle of moving to my other  home and I have to get it done today and tomorrow.
I do try to breathe diaphragmatically as much as possible when I'm up and about.





I have trained my self to breath very slowly and deeply, gradually lengthening the process during a session, it takes time and being still. I can lower blood pressure this way at times. But never learned to transform pain


--------------------



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