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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective * 2
    #22808424 - 01/21/16 09:38 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

All perception and interpretation of perception is based on contrast. As the black and white squares on a chess board image, are desaturated, using say photoshop, the perception of 64 different squares, of two ‘colors’, and their edges disappears, and is replaced by one large gray square. Nightfall and thick fog produce similar effects.

All ‘reality’ experienced by humans is based externally upon contact of the sense organs with stimuli, the transmission of these stimuli to the brain by the peripheral nerves and spinal cord, where they are further filtered, organized, interpreted, organized into larger wholes, and relegated to either conscious attention, unconscious attention, or ignored in favor of competing and/or more current stimuli; and  internally upon stimuli called thoughts and memories  consisting of images and internal dialogue (and related acoustic hallucinations), purely physical sensations, and sensations of an emotional / feeling / mood nature, and these are combined.

So all of perceived / experienced ‘reality’ is created in the brain, from stimuli that must be sufficiently different to be perceived by the resolution limitations of firstly the sense organs and secondly by the limitations of the processing power of the sorting and interpreting modules. The sorting and interpreting modules are themselves dependent on pre-established maps or algorithms of limited resolving power.
There are many hierarchies of maps, such as: language, beliefs, biological drives & needs, and various social identities or roles, that change with context.

So, at a minimum, all of the following factors influence what is perceived as real by persons, even before any action or decision, is considered or acted upon.
Strength of stimuli
Contrast between stimuli
Resolving power of sense organs
Resolving power of Mind
Accuracy of algorithms used for interpretation
Rate of incoming signals
Biological drives currently operating in the system
Social and environmental contexts
Quantity of available memory to store sufficient data to make interpretations more accurate
Competition between signals, all along, all the nerve tracts, from the sense organs, through the peripheral nerves, spinal cord, and lower brain centers, which results in pruning / filtering of all signals.
Competition and conflicts between the many different maps of language, beliefs, biological drives, social roles, and so on, at various hierarchical levels of the mind / brain.
So reality creation is, of necessity, 90 something percent unconscious. Every artist and photographer knows we don’t see the world the way it is. People in the distance are not smaller people ! - yet unless we are artists - we tend to ignore how strange our situation is.

It seems funny that in the last 20 or so years there are some technological terms that are supposed to be ‘cutting edge’, but which in reality only describe reality!
These terms are ‘virtual reality’ and ‘avatar’, and more recently sometimes ‘Matrix’.

As mentioned above, people in the distance are obviously not smaller -- likewise all of perception is a simulation in the brain, ‘projected’ outward, and taken to be ‘reality’. The brain evolved to do this because it works better for a large multicellular creature, than the more primitive sensory systems of single celled organisms, and the perceptual mechanisms of early multi celled organisms like earthworms that have a moist skin in direct contact with their environment. At this level no complex modeling is needed.

Once predators with powerful muscles, to direct motion, in a rapidly changing environment develop, evolving a ‘mind’ that models external reality, with higher accuracy and greater speed becomes an advantage. This takes us to the level of ‘virtual reality’, and ‘projection’, so that the result of leaping onto prey, for example can be more accurately modeled. It probably seriously begins with large carnivorous fish. From stereoscopic eyes an accurate depth perception is modeled. Lions, & many other predators have eyes on the front of the head, whereas prey animals have eyes on the side of the head to cover a larger field of view.

Once predators go to the next level of complexity and begin to hunt in groups, modeling ‘one’s’ position, in a group, that has a hunting strategy becomes advantageous.
We see this in a pride of lions, a pack of wolves, and a pod of dolphins, for example. We could call this the projection of the view of point of the ‘avatar’ , into the ‘Virtual Reality Simulation’. But without language there is no story that accompanies the avatar. It is  sort of like a comic strip where all the talk balloons contain empty space and the main character is erased. But the view is from the main character’s perspective.

Only in the case of humans do we have a grammatical language, with tenses, and concepts, which further organize into stories. This is an improved software /operating system, not a hardware change like the giraffe’s neck. The algorithms used for interpretation and projection have been further refined.
This makes possible an avatar that is not only no longer invisible, and can have words in it’s thought ballon---but which can now also perform the miracle of talking to itself ! We call this further simulation: ‘self’, or ‘ego’ or ‘self awareness’. It remains however no matter how fascinating it is to ‘itself’, only a simulation in a simulation, and the same goes for all of it’s supposed properties.

Hence the mystics all talk of something beyond perception which cannot be cognized by the senses, cannot be defined, is beyond subject and object, and about which any other statements are pretty much pointless, except in so far as they motivate us to go beyond our simulations. Usually meditation is recommended for this, and as a first step allowing the quieting of the ‘discursive’ mind takes place. The ‘discursive mind’  is seen from this point of view, as almost an artifact, which although having a useful & limited function, tends to become cancerous in it’s growth and over monopolize system resources, and most importantly cannot deactivate itself directly through further discursiveness as in the endeavor to reunite with that which is beyond subject and object, it is it's own worst enemy.

Amusingly this interpretation shows the message of the movie "The Matrix" to be backwards. No evil external force has hijacked humanity.
On the contrary, the illusion is maintained by our own unwillingness to question the obvious, and explore the astounding facts. But of course this is to be expected from American media.

We went from the flat earth, to earth at the center, to sun at the center, to galaxy, to galactic cluster, etc. in terms of belief; but in terms of willingness to question psychological paradigms we seem to have stalled.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22808446 - 01/21/16 09:45 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Tremendously interesting. :thumbup:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22808596 - 01/21/16 10:21 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)


Amusingly this interpretation shows the message of the movie "The Matrix" to be backwards. No evil external force has hijacked humanity.
On the contrary, the illusion is maintained by our own unwillingness to question the obvious, and explore the astounding facts. But of course this is to be expected from American media.


Ah yes that elusive obvious.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #22809657 - 01/22/16 04:03 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)


A turn towards internal world as corresponding to external, (as Kant said, a "copernican revolution") is ironically not often appreciated in grounded organic physical or experiential terms, even as it nonetheless inspires that we think in those terms.

A contrast of internal and external which is taken to be suggestive in one way, as a platonism, or in another as the "nature of experience" (empirical induction), doesn't have to always be suggested in these ways of course, but tends to, as both mind and body become hardened points of reference. I think we can ask "What mind?" To begin with. I think we can describe what is in front of us, and extrapolate from this.

What about a theory of formal and material aggregates? That is what you seem to describe here, an internal world that is actually part of the world. When buddhists talk about a theory of aggregates, they are naturally speaking in terms of matter and form, (as in matter and its shape) not at all this weird modalities of mind and body correspondence. Isn't it possible to come back to immanent terms, rather than always drawing the "correspondence", each step of the way? What is generally drawn up in cognition, is often confused with the formalized way we gather any knowledge we have of anything through the same basis of cognition.

As opposed to "the mental and physical" guiding every single conception, I tend to appreciate how the greeks knew of physis in a way which was not synthetic but organic. This would be to speak of "nature", "becoming", or "growth", if we used the word glossed as the greeks (from Homer to Aristotle) did. That sensibility is covered up, by the complicated and involved way we have been talking about physical reality. To say physis is non-synthetic would be to say that we don't claim or need to claim by correspondense (synthesis as in "placing together") that something physical is of nature or vice versa.

Anyway this has less to do with your theory perhaps, than noting my own appreciation of the general notion. I think it is an awesome idea to ground the idea of ordinary mental/formal aggregates, outside the correspondence theory, as simple evolutes.

"The turn" towards consciousness, for westerners hardens into concept of duality, of how we gather knowledge through experience (synthesis). Yet clearly we could do some backtracking. Aside from a formal capacity, corresponding to the brain, we are just as much bipedal organisms, with a remarkably handy tactile capacity. Notice the first greek philosophers talked so much about the artisans, the craft or skill, for point of contrast to knowledge. Platos forms were thus of chairs or tables and so when Aristotle sought to define physis as that which is caused in itself, he did so in contrast to what conventionally speaking what was not caused in itself. (The chair or table, techne). In other words, there is the essential form of nature, and the conventional form. Clearly conceiving platonic blueprints in the mind is only half the story and doesn't speak of these hands and opposable thumba enough. We do not consider their faculty, how they give a tactile physical impression of things, which our eye appreciates. This is to say, although we conceive physis as caused in itself, and we look for that independent existent, a substance, the idea arose somewhat dependently in a contrast to conventionally dependent existence.

Yet for modern philosophers like Kant, we talk about physis, or the cause in itself in different terms. There is generally just a single "formal faculty", an inner eye, or "transcendental aesthetic" for apperceiving phenomena of space and time, which basically suggests theoretical calculation or logical determination of physis, in however many dimensions and whatever their reality is. Hence the idea of what is caused in itself changed to these ascriptions of the subject matter, of physics and its laws. Yet Kant of course also distanced himself from what became hardened in the physical concept, saying how in syntheses of knowledge "we cannot know the thing in itself" but only addressed the phenomena of existence, what is seen in the gridded dimensions of space and time. This is essentially modern epistemology, or as much the physical world as we know it.

Come to the present. We have a sensibility that this general formality needs to be grounded, only at this point the impulse is itself not physical, but an idea of it, which seems to be an even further departure. The oppositions are even further impressed, by the analogical difference of software and hardware, the idea of being in a matrix, or virtual reality. What is most concrete and sensible to experience, is what is most immediately accessible. Because we dwell on the formality of epistemology (syntheses) rather than organic physical reality, the "philosophical" idea of a contrast can be put in these terms: what people are most skeptical of, is what they are most accepting of to be skeptical of. First matrix was an analogy to describe phenomenology (typically mind body philosophy) these formal absolutes harden even more into technologies.

I would like to see a simplified theory of western science, darwinianism, appropriated less to the hardening of correspondence theory, that corrupts a view to things. We can view what is in front of us as aggregates. Correspondence seems to be a hardened institution in western culture, emphasizing and always pushing compulsion in this turning to mental experience as some absolute. My pursuasion is it helps tremendously to get back to matter and form, without the "turning" to consciousness insinuating itself each step of the way.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22812790 - 01/22/16 11:37 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:


Ah yes that elusive obvious.




we drive on a parkway
and park in a driveway

when the obvious is not so obvious medication helps,
according to Dr. House


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22812929 - 01/23/16 12:24 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

That's the title of a book by Moshe Feldenkrais.  Maybe the most masterful of the bodywork geniuses.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22813107 - 01/23/16 01:22 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

is it obvious that it's not obvious?

Gallagher

Why is it that we drive through a parkway, and park in a driveway?

Why do they put the little "on/off" words on a light switch? If the light's on, you can see that it's on. If the light's off, it's too dark to see the words on the switch.

Why do you need a driver's license to buy liquor when you're not supposed to drink and drive?

If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?

Why are they called apartments when they're all stuck together?

If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?

Why is bra singular and panties plural?

Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds?

Why are there interstates in Hawaii?

Why are there flotation devices under plane seats instead of parachutes?

Why are cigarettes sold at gas stations when smoking is prohibited there?

If 7-11 is open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, why are there locks on the doors?

You know that little indestructible black box that is used on planes...why can't they make the whole plane out of the same material?

Why do they call it a TV set when you only get one?

Why do they call that funny little statue a bust when it stops right before the part of the body that it's named after?

Why do they call them buildings when they're already built?...They ought to call them builts.

Why do they call men Cowboys? Bulls are the males, cows are the females... Men should be called Bullboys.

Why do Cowboys wear a spur on each boot? If one side of the horse moves, the other side goes with it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22813784 - 01/23/16 06:46 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

From a lifetime of study and searching the most elusive obvious IMO is that we are animals that will decay and die.  DA drives culture in a mostly successful attempt to deny the facts of life on a mostly unconscious level.

For a lot more on this see Ernest Becker's work on DA starting with Denial of Death.  This book basically answered all my questions that I had been seeking for a lifetime.  I'm approaching 63 and have been a psychonaut since I was 18.  I certainly didn't like the answers and it was truly the elusive obvious in my life. Yet like everyone I knew I could easily say "I know I'm going to die, everyone does." But I didn't know and it was the quintessential elusive obvious at work in me.

  Thanks a lot Veritas. :satansmoking::heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #22815840 - 01/23/16 06:28 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I am older than you, & a psychonaut since around 1966; & a body with a list of problems, some no longer fixable. Meditation, or the best version of it I can manage seems the best use of my remaining time.

During psycedlic experience it seems there may be the experience of living and dying moment by moment, moment after moment.
If some sense of this can be touched upon thru meditation it would certainly, defuse DA.
That DA is almost a universal factor is attested to by many religions of which the Ancient Egyptians are the most extreme example.
My memory is poor, but what annoyed me about Becker was I believe the attempt to fit everything into one theory.

That people like hunter gatherer / bushmen seem not to have anxiety in this regard, seems believable to me because, they live much more in the present than we do. And being in the present is a first step in all meditative practices.
Hunter gatherers don’t read, go to movies, stay up late, or write. They hunt and are the best trackers on earth totally in touch with their environment. They kill and butcher their own food. They experience childbirth without drugs and hospitals. They don’t smoke, they run for miles doing hunting based on exhausting faster animals that can’t sweat to cool down. They are full of life, completely unpretentious honest people, with next to no possessions, no churches, no cemeteries.
Their whole lives they are surrounded by people who know them, except when marrying into another group, or when groups link up during times of scarcity. Even then ties are quickly cemented. It is a beautiful life, beyond what we can imagine, it seems to me.
It would seem, “off the top of my head” DA is in proportion to attachment to a “false self”, and “unfinished emotional business”, two problems it is easy to imagine they have less of.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22816009 - 01/23/16 07:08 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Could be. :shrug:  I've settled on DA as the main issue confronting modern man.

Nice to find another peer on the boards.  You have a lot of interesting things to say.

I always admired Abo life. I took Desert Survival Skills courses in Paiute country of Eastern Oregon's High Desert. I spent several summers on my own in the back country playing abo. Some of the richest memories of my life.

Now like you I'm old with lots of seemingly permanent physical ills. I do something like the Buddhist body scan for up to eight hours a day at times.  It's really made the difference between being here and suicide.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/23/16 07:12 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22816521 - 01/23/16 09:26 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

“I've settled on DA as the main issue confronting modern man.”
Yeah: aversion to death, (and the related feelings: failure, & shame etc);
&  attachment to sex, (and the related feelings of: success, & control, etc.)

“Nice to find another peer on the boards.”
Yes, seem to be a bunch us older folks

…”spent several summers on my own in the back country”…
Wow ! I have mostly avoided the big cities, and may eventually
find somewhere more rural, “ ‘God’ willing & the creek don’t rise.”
It sounds like those summers were magical.

“body scan for up to eight hours a day at times”
8 hours - Wow ! And so effective.
Seems when ever we return to the ‘sound of silence’ or cease to believe our thoughts, it all seems more peaceful.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22816591 - 01/23/16 09:47 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

If you read my illness history you'll understand why I was forced into those all day sessions of breathing and body scan. I was in great pain and totally shit face scared that I would have to commit suicide to escape the pain.  But in another post I commented that after days of focused breathing and a type of hypnosis I was able to turn, at times, the intense nerve pain into a pleasurable vibration. It saved me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22816875 - 01/23/16 10:59 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
DA is in proportion to attachment to a “false self”




Agree totally.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: viktor]
    #22817000 - 01/23/16 11:28 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

What would be an authentic self? How would you know if you were one?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22817961 - 01/24/16 10:07 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
If you read my illness history you'll understand why I was forced into those all day sessions of breathing and body scan. I was in great pain and totally shit face scared that I would have to commit suicide to escape the pain.  But in another post I commented that after days of focused breathing and a type of hypnosis I was able to turn, at times, the intense nerve pain into a pleasurable vibration. It saved me.




do you have a link to your history, if so i'll read it


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22817967 - 01/24/16 10:10 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
What would be an authentic self? How would you know if you were one?




the usual answer is that what we answer when somebody asks who we are like:
“this is my job, this is where I live, this is my name, my religion, my politics, my worries, my history” … etc.
is not who we really are.
So what are we really? some might say “awareness”

Other explanations might contrast an ‘authentic self’ with a ‘phony self’
i.e. one that tries to impress other people, is dishonest,
tries to manipulate other people—or is simply afraid and repressed

As I understand a Buddhist sort of view, the ‘small self’ that gives answers like: “I am a carpenter, I am a Christian, I am good.”,
is problematic because it is an objectification of a process.
Buddhism does not say there is no self, but that there is no fixed, permanent, separate self. Meaning there is no unchanging essence that is in control. So from the Buddhist perspective a more fluid way of being is healthier, such as we find in a spontaneous, happy, or even laughing child.
Such a child does not say seriously, I am a Christian, a democrat, etc.
They are more likely to say something like:  “I was the cowboy yesterday, can I be the Indian today?” or “I was the princess yesterday, today I want to be the queen.”
Because life and the universe are fluid when we turn ourselves into objects, we become more solid and hard and we get protective and suffer.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22818166 - 01/24/16 11:40 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
What would be an authentic self? How would you know if you were one?




An authentic self would be consciousness. If you are one then you know about it, there's no how involved.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22818172 - 01/24/16 11:42 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
If you read my illness history you'll understand why I was forced into those all day sessions of breathing and body scan. I was in great pain and totally shit face scared that I would have to commit suicide to escape the pain.  But in another post I commented that after days of focused breathing and a type of hypnosis I was able to turn, at times, the intense nerve pain into a pleasurable vibration. It saved me.




do you have a link to your history, if so i'll read it





I have given it out in bits and pieces. If I find a good one I'll link it or PM it to you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: viktor]
    #22818179 - 01/24/16 11:43 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
What would be an authentic self? How would you know if you were one?




An authentic self would be consciousness. If you are one then you know about it, there's no how involved.




Everyone possesses consciousness from what I know and I'll bet everyone in the bible belt thinks they know about it. :shrug: Sounds very subjective to me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22818279 - 01/24/16 12:14 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, and everyone possesses an authentic self too. It's a matter of choosing to identify with it instead of identifying with the miserable, whinging, negative, stubborn self.

You know all this anyway. I don't know why you're asking me about it.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22818968 - 01/24/16 02:56 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I'd first like to say : Very nice systems view on the structuring and flow of things pertaining to the brain ! Very nice reflections on evolution and overall great reflections ^_^.

Breaking apart your post into the following parts : 
> Systems summary
  * Depth perception (.. People in the distance being smaller)
  * Unconscious
> Evolutionary commentary
> Beyond perception
  * Matrix commentary
---------------------------------------------------------

> Systems summary
Reply : This was solid. I can't say anything in manner of critique of it.

* Depth perception (.. People in the distance being smaller and it not being true to the nature of things)
Reply : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_field . The vectorized light field that terminates on your eye is such that things further away cast a 'smaller' light field. This is true to the nature of light.

* Unconscious
Reply :  Having no definition of consciousness, it is not clear what is meant by unconscious processes especially ones that reside within a conscious entity. For practical purposes, I get what you're saying. However, there is no clear percentage or number that should be assigned to what portion is conscious/unconscious especially to such a degree that one gets bold enough to proclaim something like 90%. You can will yourself to be conscious of more clearly. So, there is no solid number . You reside at the seat of a system... To what degree you dabble with the control is up to you. There are many people who don't and are seemingly on biological auto-pilot but there is no one size fits all measure to this and I'd most definitely say its not 90%. I'm not sure why this number gets tossed around as it has absolutely no grounding besides being a wild subjective conjecture.

> Evolutionary commentary
Reply : Accurate reflections but it still says nothing of the evolutionary process, what it's purpose is, how it governs, at what granularity it governs at, to what end, and why the huge evolutionary leap in Humans. The biggest observation about Evolution is that we don't know much about it. So, one should restrict how far they apply it in way of understanding. Sure, you can note the observable functional uses of such features sets and variance and you're 100% spot on with your commentary. However, that states : what .. not why. There is no understanding as to the diversity of biological expression. The way feature sets balance and essentially cancel each other out. When I think of evolution I think of a system of order/progression of creation and there isn't much understood about it as that. We are venturing to understand it and are making good progress though :smile:

> Beyond perception (Matrix commentary)
Reply : Yes, you essentially sit at the seat of creation w.r.t to your own subjective experience and what a gift it is. To what degree people utilize it and understand it varies. There are many paths as such. However, at the core of your existence is the beautiful matter of creation. If all of creation 'the universe' was brought down to a point of infinite potential and you were given the keys, what would you do? What would you create? Creation is consequential. As you even reflected, perception occurs through contrast. What contrasts would you make? To what degree would they exist?

Now, close your eyes ... calm yourself and reflect on the capability you have to do this on a day to day basis. Are you not the embodiment of the grandness people philosophize about? And even then, with that gift, you can sit and choose to philosophize about creating... the infinite. Suppose i were to create... So, there you are .... accessing the most grand things of universe  without even realizing it.. but now hopefully you do.


Now, as to culture .. American culture .. and promotions of such journeys .. The issue is as you can clearly see it : conflicting interest.

Also, 'psychology/philosophy' are not endpoints of inquiry... They are just points that you move on from after you have a framework of pursuit.  You discover and then that feeds back to your psychology/philosophy and so on again and again.

Your very nicely worded commentary is being pursued at the scientific level :
http://phys.org/news/2015-05-spacetime-built-quantum-entanglement.html

Any discovered truth therein flows back to the psychology/philosophy that brought the nature of things into question in the first place.... So, it's a process and a feedback and it is occurring as it always has. Do you see it?


Edited by iiilil (01/24/16 03:04 PM)


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Kurt]
    #22819010 - 01/24/16 03:06 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kurt said:
<snip>
My persuasion is it helps tremendously to get back to matter and form.. <snip>




I really liked your post Kurt ! ^_^


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: viktor]
    #22819318 - 01/24/16 04:42 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Yes, and everyone possesses an authentic self too. It's a matter of choosing to identify with it instead of identifying with the miserable, whinging, negative, stubborn self.

You know all this anyway. I don't know why you're asking me about it.




I actually don't know it and it's why I'm asking. I used to think I knew such things but I found, for myself, that I was just believing I was in a better space than others which I now have some doubts about.

All those attributes you consider negative are subjective as far as I can tell.  Nature seems to have a use for them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22819501 - 01/24/16 05:31 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Well, Nature has a use for your death, too. It will ease the pressure on the biosphere and your corpse will provide nutrition for worms and bacteria.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: viktor]
    #22819601 - 01/24/16 06:02 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Exactly. :thumbup:  I personally fear death but it's subjective.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22819644 - 01/24/16 06:16 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

It is. Ultimately you choose to fear death.


--------------------
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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: viktor]
    #22819649 - 01/24/16 06:17 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I don't agree. I would rather not. I'm overwhelmed by that fear.  It's not a conscious choice at least.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22819716 - 01/24/16 06:34 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

You can only fear death if you choose to cling to the materialist illusion. People make a conscious choice to continue to do that.

Killing your false self is called 'letting go' because maintaining a false self requires a lot of energy. You have to be constantly afraid, for example.


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: viktor]
    #22819762 - 01/24/16 06:50 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I don't agree with your POV.  My father was totally invested in his spiritual beliefs and yet I saw the fear when he was dying.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: viktor] * 1
    #22822827 - 01/25/16 03:50 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Why do anything at all? Because we want to.

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
What would be an authentic self? How would you know if you were one?




An authentic self would be consciousness. If you are one then you know about it, there's no how involved.



An authentic self would be a conscience, you'd know this if you are entirely aware of your instinctive feelings, thoughts and ego and have accepted that they arise from a personal subjective origin.

Some people are not as aware of themselves and do not yet possess the emotional intelligence to label their emotional experiences and to fully understand the 'why' of their thoughts or actions.

Quote:

visitors said: "It is. Ultimately you choose to fear death."



I agree, I think death is inevitable so I'd rather not be wasting my time on fearing it.

To me your point sounds like the one of this example:
If I told two people to fuck off, one could laugh while the other cries.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (01/25/16 04:38 PM)


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective *DELETED* [Re: sudly]
    #22824311 - 01/25/16 09:16 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by laughingdog

Reason for deletion: why not



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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #22824335 - 01/25/16 09:22 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by laughingdog

Reason for deletion: not useful



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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22824561 - 01/25/16 10:07 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Icelander
What are you afraid of?
Not getting anymore desires satisfied?
Or the unknown?
Or what they will say about you after you're gone?
the possibility of the process being painful?
or some other things?

My memory is so spotty my 'identity' is already a bit of a joke.





Maybe all of that and much more.  If you really want to understand where I'm coming from with DA take a few moments of your time and check out this link or this documentary you can watch on HULU.  Or read Ernest Becker's book Denial of Death.


http://www.tmt.missouri.edu/

http://transcendentalmedia.com/new/films/now-playing/flight-from-death-the-quest-for-immortality/
http://www.amazon.com/The-Denial-Death-Ernest-Becker/dp/0684832402


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/25/16 10:11 PM)


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22824580 - 01/25/16 10:13 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)





Laughingdog said: "Sudly you seem confused about the meaning of "conscience"
the word pertains to guilt and morality---not awareness per se."





How so?

Quote:

"Conscience is an aptitude, faculty, intuition or judgment that assists in distinguishing right from wrong. Moral judgment may derive from values or norms (principles and rules)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscience




I don't see how one can be self aware without genuine honesty.

Conscience to me is a level of genuine personal integrity and the ability to disambiguate between a truth and lie.

I believe conscience consists of individual morality between good and bad as well as the thoughts and feelings that come with guilt, compassion and a great deal of all the other emotions we can experience.


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22824687 - 01/25/16 10:33 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Icelander, you refer me to theoretical material, not your feelings.

I ask how do people like Socrates, who calmed his weeping disciples, before drinking the hemlock overcome this anxiety.

Even today there is a hemlock society, scince American society is so phobic of death it keeps brain dead people on life support for years.

To avoid this people get lawyers to help them write "A living will (also called an advance directive )usually provides specific directives about the course of treatment that is to be followed by healthcare providers and caregivers. In some cases a living will may forbid the use of various kinds of burdensome medical treatment. It may also be used to express wishes about the use or foregoing of food and water, if supplied via tubes or other medical devices. The living will is used only if the individual has become unable to give informed consent or refusal due to incapacity. A living will can be very specific or very general. An example of a statement sometimes found in a living will is: “If I suffer an incurable, irreversible illness, disease, or condition and my attending physician determines that my condition is terminal, I direct that life-sustaining measures that would serve only to prolong my dying be withheld or discontinued.”

Then there was Dr. Kevorkian. And the suicide statistics. How do Becker and co. account for all these folks that confront and face death without blinking? It almost seems you want to justify maintaining an unpleasant emotion (fear), which seems strange to me since you managed to control your internal state with body scanning.

I get that normal people seek pleasure and attempt to avoid all forms of discomfort constantly. But, as you already know, many other people also discipline themselves to achieve difficult goals that involve lots of discomfort, and accomplish great things as a result.


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22826025 - 01/26/16 10:01 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I answered your question about my feelings.  I have no more to say on this issue at this time unless it's with people informed on on the links I offered. That's a topic I'd be very interested in discussing.  However in my experience here almost no one is interested.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/26/16 10:40 AM)


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22826132 - 01/26/16 11:18 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
.... I was able to turn, at times, the intense nerve pain into a pleasurable vibration. It saved me.




well I still think that's cool.


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22826141 - 01/26/16 11:26 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

So do I. That hardly says it. :cool: I had to do it last night in fact and it worked once again.  I'm flaring today also but I have to basically be on my back with total focus to make it work. So I'll likely just suffer through this day as I'm in the middle of moving to my other  home and I have to get it done today and tomorrow.
I do try to breathe diaphragmatically as much as possible when I'm up and about.







--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/26/16 11:27 AM)


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22826670 - 01/26/16 02:54 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
.... I was able to turn, at times, the intense nerve pain into a pleasurable vibration. It saved me.




well I still think that's cool.




That is cool, not sure how tightening your diaphragm helps to quell nerve pain though.
Poppy seed tea is pretty good at relieving nerve pain too.


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22826700 - 01/26/16 03:01 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
So do I. That hardly says it. :cool: I had to do it last night in fact and it worked once again.  I'm flaring today also but I have to basically be on my back with total focus to make it work. So I'll likely just suffer through this day as I'm in the middle of moving to my other  home and I have to get it done today and tomorrow.
I do try to breathe diaphragmatically as much as possible when I'm up and about.





I have trained my self to breath very slowly and deeply, gradually lengthening the process during a session, it takes time and being still. I can lower blood pressure this way at times. But never learned to transform pain


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: sudly]
    #22826708 - 01/26/16 03:04 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I don't tighten it?:confused: I fully relax it and breath deep fully into my body.  Letting the lower belly move out and fill the lungs completely.

I also use opiates prescribed but the breathing worked before I used them. Now I can really go into some states resembling ecstasy using both. I have to be careful with the opiates however but I can't do enough of the breathing.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22826750 - 01/26/16 03:18 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I doubt you loosen your diaphragm when you take in deep breaths..

I sometimes go into a state of ecstasy because I stood up or changed what I was doing, sometimes I've got no focus :frown:


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: laughingdog]
    #22826754 - 01/26/16 03:20 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

After reading through the accumulated posts on this subject while high I have concluded we only have a few days left before our species will become extinct. I think our troubles began when we over fertilized our words and they grew into massive, unmanageable...monstrous entities and became conscious of their size, began to intimidate and seize power. Mushrooms are so much easier and beneficial to grow!


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: sudly]
    #22826762 - 01/26/16 03:23 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I doubt you loosen your diaphragm when you take in deep breaths..

I sometimes go into a state of ecstasy because I stood up or changed what I was doing, sometimes I've got no focus :frown:




Everything relaxes. It was called diaphragmatic breathing where I learned it. That's all I know.

Did the ecstasy last? This can last for hours.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: mushcraft]
    #22826767 - 01/26/16 03:25 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mushcraft said:
After reading through the accumulated posts on this subject while high I have concluded we only have a few days left before our species will become extinct. I think our troubles began when we over fertilized our words and they grew into massive, unmanageable...monstrous entities and became conscious of their size, began to intimidate and seize power. Mushrooms are so much easier and beneficial to grow!





If we only  have a few days then I'm going to be taking a lot of opiates and playing my fiddle on the roof. :satansmoking::cool: I can't imagine how cool that would be  to know the exact last day. What a party  you could plan. :nicesmile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/26/16 03:26 PM)


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: Icelander]
    #22826838 - 01/26/16 03:53 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

The ecstasy lasts for as long as I can distract myself in the present moment, sometimes minutes, sometimes hours.

The exact last day of the Earth and all potential life on it is in 4.5 billion years when our Sun begins to expand into a red giant and its stores of hydrogen run dry.


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Re: Why not? FW frm evolutionary perspective [Re: sudly]
    #22826918 - 01/26/16 04:22 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

That's  not the last day that's the last year. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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