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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2280357 - 01/28/04 12:29 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

RAWK THE VOTE!!!!!


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Anonymous

Re: There is still hope for America [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2280367 - 01/28/04 12:31 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

um. much of public schooling is collectivist indoctrination. this should be apparent to anyone that went through it (provided that they themselves were not successfully indoctrinated... come to think of it.... it appears to me that you were. never mind).


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: ]
    #2280556 - 01/28/04 01:21 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I went to a Catholic High School. Same shit, different doctrine.

EDIT: Have you considered how hard it is to educate someone WITHOUT indoctrinating them? I mean, you could just list a bunch of facts, but no one's going to pay attention unless you add a little commentary and some occasional class discussion. Like I said, the Catholic school I went to indoctrinated the students in Catholic beliefs. Likewise, I'm sure home-schooled kids get indoctrinated in their parents' beliefs. If you have an opinion on a subject, you'll probably end up conveying that opinion onto someone in the process of teaching them about it. That's why the most important thing you can teach someone is to think critically and question everything. That's how I managed to get through Catholic school and remain pro-choice, pro-euthanisia, and generally anti-organized religion.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (01/28/04 01:55 PM)


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2282031 - 01/28/04 11:51 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
then i suppose karl rove is a liberal...



Well, whatever Karl Rove is does not change what I am trying to impart to you.

Read the following and elighten yourself...

#####################################################

excerpted from "The Cases Are a Dime a Dozen"
by Steven Yates

For the past year I?ve followed the case of the "token conservative" who was kicked off the Miami Student, the student newspaper of Miami University ? a fairly small and exclusive school in Oxford, Ohio. Little over a year ago ? on Jan. 17, 2003 ? the student, Aaron Sanders, published a column entitled "Hold MU Professors Accountable." He charged MU professors not just with politicizing the classroom environment but with adopting pedagogical techniques that are inappropriate for a healthy learning environment. He later recounted for The Washington Times, "I mentioned one class where a professor of French surprised the class by replacing her usual teaching with the showing of a film, ?Ridicule.? The film opens with a man casually unzipping his pants, exposing himself for all to see. After a lengthy close-up of his genitals, the man urinates on another man?s head. Beyond questioning the pedagogical value of this film to a French class, I argued that if students are going to be subjected to content such as this, the professor should at least warn her students that the film contains images that may deeply offend the sensibilities of many students."

Sanders added that the chair of this professor?s department also engaged in such antics and "justified that material as part of the department?s ?commitment to cultural diversity.?"

Following the publication of the initial column, a predictable howl ensued. The departmental chair complained to the student newspaper?s faculty advisor, who in turn complained to the student editor-in-chief, a Jill Inkrott, and demanded both Sanders? firing and that he be forced to write an apology to the professors involved. Sanders indeed was fired. Ironically, the faculty advisor of the student newspaper, whose name was Cheryl Heckler, was reportedly a "self-styled crusader against censorship and oppression who is published often on the subject of freedom of speech."

Sanders? interrogators demanded that he reveal the names of his sources, students who had been enrolled in the class. He refused, and later wrote for The Washington Times, "I was stunned with the unmistakable possibility that students will be retaliated against for expressing their candid views on what happened in the classroom. I told Miss Inkrott that the facts in the article are not in dispute and that I would not be co-opted into a witch hunt."

According to Thor Halvorssen of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), the organization that assisted Aaron Sanders, "This goes on all the time. It is a national scandal." Halvorssen continued, "It is unbearable that a professor and journalist will demand a forced apology and seek the termination of a student columnist because his honest criticism is politically incorrect."

California Polytechnic State University is in federal court over an incident that happened in November of 2002 in which a student was censored for putting up a flier with a politically incorrect message on it ? at the student multicultural center. The student, Steve Hinkle, was accused and found guilty of "disruption" after posting the flier deemed "offensive" by a number of black students because they portrayed a dissident black author, Mason Weaver, alongside the title of his book It?s Okay to Leave the Plantation. Weaver had argued that the government, via programs such as affirmative action, have placed American blacks in a position not dissimilar to what they faced under slavery. Although Hinkle left without posting the flier, one of the black students called the police anyway to complain of "hate speech against us." Hinkle was called onto the carpet and spent seven hours being grilled by Cal Poly authorities. He was ordered to write letters of apology to the offended students, who alleged they had been holding a Bible study, although according to witnesses no Bibles had been evident in the area. Hinkle was threatened with expulsion from the university if he refused.

Hinkle went first to FIRE and was referred to the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Individual Rights (CIR) for legal representation. Last September, CIR and co-counsel Carol Sobel of Santa Monica, Calif., filed a First Amendment lawsuit against Cal Poly, which included a temporary restraining order for the immediate protection of Hinkle?s freedom of speech rights (this latter was denied). The case is pending. Terence Pell, President of CIR, stated in a press release, "Posting a flier on a public bulletin board announcing a talk on a topic of public importance is at the heart of the First Amendment. The school cannot punish Hinkle simply because students find the topic controversial.


"Diversity," he elaborated, "can't mean one rule of conduct for one race and another rule for other races. True diversity means the same rule for all students, regardless of race. Higher education officials say racial preferences are necessary to promote diversity. Now they're trying to punish students for engaging in exactly the sort of back-and-forth that racial diversity is supposed to promote."

In both of these cases, the campus thought police have run up against stiff and determined opposition.

Explicitly Christian groups on campuses are sometimes the target of censorship and exclusionary campaigns, including at universities with religious affiliations and missions. Also last fall, the Gonzaga University School of Law?s Student Bar Association refused to recognize a student organization, the Gonzaga Pro-Life Law Caucus, on the grounds that the group explicitly required that its leadership be Christian. The Student Bar Association deemed this "discriminatory."

The Spokane, Wash.?based Catholic university?s mission statement explicitly calls for "providing interested students with a supportive setting to explore and deepen their Christian faith within our warm and welcoming environment for students of all religious backgrounds or secular moral traditions." Again, after exhausting internal mechanisms for appeal, the Gonzaga Pro-Life Law Caucus also turned to FIRE, which sent a letter to Gonzaga?s president, Father Robert J. Spitzer, S.J. ? a Jesuit. "We live in a strange age, indeed, when a Catholic, Jesuit university would deny a Christian pro-life group recognition because its religious nature is considered discriminatory," said Greg Lukianoff, spokesman for FIRE.

Thus far, Father Spitzer has not responded to FIRE, leaving the Gonzaga Pro-Life Law Caucus without the official recognition afforded other law student groups, including the Sexual Orientation Diversity Alliance, the Armed Forces Law Club, and the Women's Law Caucus, among others. Thus far, what most of us would consider the good guys are still struggling for survival in this case. The irony here is that Spitzer is the founder of a group called the University Faculty For Life.

Gonzaga University also punished the campus College Republicans group for ? are you ready for this? ? using the word hate on a flier but applying it to the left. The flier was for a campus appearance by Daniel J. Flynn, author of Why the Left Hates America, sponsored by the College Republicans and the Young America?s Foundation. The flier displays this phrase LEFT HATES prominently, enlarging the lettering. According to official politically correct ideology, of course, hate is a product of the right, not the left. So it was unsurprising that despite the fact that both the book and the speech were critical of hate ? who isn?t? ? the College Republicans became targets. Having had copies of the fliers ripped down, including by university officials, they were forced to revise the content of the flier to reflect the fact that the phrase LEFT HATES was part of a book title. This despite the fact that the original flier had received pre-approval for posting. The University placed a disciplinary letter in the campus group?s official file reporting on the group?s "discriminatory" word "hate," which might itself constitute "hate speech." Paul Schafer, president of the College Republicans, said bemusedly, "I never imagined that someone would call the title of a book discriminatory hate speech." In response to FIRE?s protests, Father Spitzer had the letter removed from the group?s file. Later he would deny that the University had punished the College Republicans at all. For all practical purposes, though, the good guys won this one.

With multiculturalism now the reigning ideology of academia, it remains very difficult to hold constructive debates over policies such as affirmative action on campuses. Some students have adapted to the situation by using satire and subtle ridicule to make their points. A reader of my recent piece on affirmative action ? the one that was ignored by Columbia?s city newspaper ? reminded me of the "affirmative action bake sales" that were held on several campuses last fall. At the University of Washington in Seattle, the College Republicans put on such an event. They set out a display of baked goods along with a mock menu that priced the items differently for different races and ethnic groups on campus. Black and Hispanic students would pay less than white or Asian students for the same item. The group wasn?t serious about selling baked goods, of course. It was satire, drawing attention to the inequities involved in such procedures as preferential student admissions. The result, however, was such hostility that the police had to be called to head off a situation that was turning violent, including ripping down signs and (according to one report) throwing a box of cookies into a student?s face. The police then closed down the "bake sale." Later, the administration issued a letter condemning the College Republicans for being "hurtful." The letter did not mention the violent tactics that were used to disrupt what had been a peaceful protest of a very controversial university policy. Halvorssen observed: "This is outrageous. It sends a chilling message to students who wish to engage in honest disagreement. Had this been a protest in favor of affirmative action ? and thus likely to offend the College Republicans ? would hurt feelings have had any standing whatsoever in the hearts and minds of the Board of Regents? The double standard is breathtaking."

At least four other "affirmative action bake sales" were similarly forcibly shut down on four other campuses around the country last fall (University of California at Irvine, Northwestern University, Southern Methodist University, the College of William & Mary). However, we must note that campus administrations in three other locations (Indiana University, Texas A & M and University of Texas?Austin) allowed the satirical protests to go on as planned. It is good to know that there are a few places left where the First Amendment is still recognized. Again, the situation is not hopeless.

Circumstances involving censorship and suppression of politically unpopular ideas are only one aspect of the mounting craziness we have seen on campuses during the past two decades, however. Occasionally one comes across a development that sounds like something straight out of The Twilight Zone. The Young America?s Foundation keeps regular track of the annual Top Ten Campus Follies. Carrying away the #1 prize for 2003 was Wesleyan University in Connecticut. This institution of higher learning now has among its facilities a "gender blind" dormitory floor for incoming students who aren?t sure what sex they are. Students requesting the floor can be assigned roommates without regard to their sex ? real, perceived, or otherwise. Apparently there is now a category called the transgender student who doesn?t identify with a (his? her?) physical sex. To my knowledge no one has been censored or attacked over this. But then again, no Aaron Sanders has penned an article dropping the suggestion that these people need to have their heads examined.

That was 2003. The good news is that there are organizations such as FIRE, CIR and YAF that are exposing political correctness, battling back against double standards and lampooning outright absurdity. Moreover, there are a few students who have gone on the offensive and formed campus organizations of their own. Take for example Anthony Dick, a summer intern for FIRE concerned about the threats to free speech on campus. He went to the University of Virginia last fall and promptly formed the Individual Rights Coalition. Its first mission was to organize resistance to a proposed diversity training program that would be mandatory for all students. Dick and other members of the new group were able to gather 500 signatures in opposition to the program, forcing the university into a dialogue.

Such efforts offer encouraging news. But their advocates nevertheless face a long, uphill struggle against a now well-entrenched orthodoxy. After all, we can still wonder what will erupt on our campuses during 2004?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: ]
    #2283057 - 01/29/04 08:12 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

much of public schooling is collectivist indoctrination.




Could you expand on this a little, give a few examples maybe? Education must be very different in the UK as I cant really remember any collectivist indoctrination. But then of course, I have been brainwashed right? lol


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2283149 - 01/29/04 09:33 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Bush is running the country into the ground, illiterate boobs in their twenties give him the thumbs up, and you take this as a sign there is is "hope for America"!

Wuahahahahahahaahahah *ROTFL*

Shit, who needs shrooms when all I have to do to enter an alternate reality is to log on to this forum?

Please explain one instance of how Bush has taken the government fist out of our rectums. Your rectum must be pretty loose by now if you haven't caught on to the fact that he's just shoved it further in.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2283204 - 01/29/04 10:12 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe Luv likes that...


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: GazzBut]
    #2283875 - 01/29/04 02:23 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

It's pretty clear to me that public education involves some indoctrination. However, what the conservatives either fail to realize or fail to address is the fact that ALL education involves some kind of indoctrination, whether intentional or not.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: silversoul7]
    #2284074 - 01/29/04 03:19 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Exactly. But whatever I was indoctrinated with at school it certainly wasnt any "collectivist" propaganda. That came later when i opened my eyes!  :wink:


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: Evolving]
    #2284146 - 01/29/04 03:43 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I've thought about starting a white pride organization at my school.

I wonder how that would go over.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2284167 - 01/29/04 03:50 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well, you can have a Latino Pride organization, or A Black, ah excuse me 'African American Pride' organization, or Gay Pride or NAMBLA Pride, or "Friends of Communist Dictators" Pride, but White Pride?!?!?! Your asking for trouble, that goes against the tenents of, the dogma of multiculturalism.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: Evolving]
    #2284474 - 01/29/04 05:29 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

NAMBLA Pride, or "Friends of Communist Dictators" Pride



I'm not so sure those would be accepted either. Personally, though, I think any club or movement with the word "pride" in it is bullshit.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: silversoul7]
    #2284672 - 01/29/04 06:35 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

What should I call it?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2284728 - 01/29/04 06:53 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

How about the "Who gives a fuck what color your skin is" club?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: silversoul7]
    #2284834 - 01/29/04 07:29 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Should I also start a "who gives a fuck about chess" club, and a "who gives a fuck about art" club?

How do other ethnic groups decide who can and can't be a member?

How hispanic do you have to be to join a hispanic club, or how black do you have to be to join a black people club?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2284937 - 01/29/04 08:16 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

How hispanic do you have to be to join a hispanic club, or how black do you have to be to join a black people club?



Well, I remember back in High School, during Club sign-up day, the Black Student Union was saying that you don't have to be black to join. I guess those clubs just focus on the ethnic culture and issues relevant to them.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2284959 - 01/29/04 08:26 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

more than anything else..that shows the full extent to which the quality of education has declined in this country




BINGO!

Computer programmers have an expression:

Junk in -> Junk Out

Looks like the conformity and obedience promoting public school system is finally payin off!

Also, it should be important to note that the article says young voters

Anyone who votes is obviously a tool :lol:

this survey is not a measure of the youth opinion, it is a measure of the youth voter opinion.  In other words, the class president types, not the high school dropout types. 


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2285010 - 01/29/04 08:49 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

ANybody that has an opinion is dum.


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OfflineHATU
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2285344 - 01/29/04 10:43 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Liberal, conservative, republican, democrat, it's just 2 sides of the same coin. One just tells you before they fuck you and the other lies while they're fucking you. But when it comes to education, there is a big difference with the current administration. The big plan is to drain all the public schools of funds and transfer the funds via tax credits and "faith based initiatives" to private christian schools. Bush and his clan don't give a fuck about anyone that isn't rich, don't kid yourselves about that. And I'm curious, all the right wingers, or whatever you want to call yourselves, what part of the country do you live in?


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: There is still hope for America [Re: HATU]
    #2285395 - 01/29/04 11:03 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HATU said:
Liberal, conservative, republican, democrat, it's just 2 sides of the same coin.



I'll have to agree with that.

Quote:

HATU said:
The big plan is to drain all the public schools of funds and transfer the funds via tax credits and "faith based initiatives" to private christian schools.



Do you have a text of this plan? Tax credits are not a transfer of funds. To the contrary, taking tax money from one person and giving to another (or using it to fund a program that the taxed does not benefit from) can more correctly be termed a 'transfer.' Allowing someone to keep more of their earnings can only be termed a 'transfer of funds' by someone who is not proficient in the English language (a public school graduate perhaps?) or someone who likes to redefine terms in order to suit their agenda.

Oh, by the way, Christian schools turn out graduates who are less likely to be functionally illiterate than public school graduates.

Quote:

Bush and his clan don't give a fuck about anyone that isn't rich, don't kid yourselves about that.



Do they love the Hollywood elite? Because those are some rich bastards (and bitches). I think it has more to do with who supports their agenda and how useful they are towards that end.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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