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Offlinesgfccchamber
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: sgfccchamber]
    #22765772 - 01/11/16 12:11 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

==================================Update 1 - 2nd Day of Colonization=====================================


























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Invisibletak18
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: sgfccchamber]
    #22767737 - 01/11/16 09:03 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

I just thought of this crazy idea as an extension to your experiment that may be pointless but I want to say it anyway. Depending on the results of your experiment, I would be interested in seeing how increasing the surface area more would affect the yield by shaping the substrate to form 8 pyramids with each 4 sides. For the current accordion one you have, imagine carving another trough lengthwise. And adding angled faces to each including on the edges of the tub.

Here is a very detailed picture I made in MS paint of what I'm describing:




I'm curious to know if your experiment shows any increase in yield. Good luck!

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: tak18]
    #22767745 - 01/11/16 09:04 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

that's like the less super computer optimized version of the golfball surface, do that side by side with the golfball like surface

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Offlinetopsykretts
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: sgfccchamber]
    #22768225 - 01/11/16 11:02 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Definitely following this thread

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Offlinethelivingfreekshow
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: sgfccchamber]
    #22768773 - 01/12/16 04:44 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

:threadmonitor:

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Offlinelooking4Spores
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: thelivingfreekshow] * 1
    #22768891 - 01/12/16 06:22 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Hello :hi: 

Is there a reason for using a clear liner, rather than a black one?


Interesting experiment you've got going.

:takingnotes:


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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: looking4Spores]
    #22768895 - 01/12/16 06:23 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Light doesn't matter at all for tub liners and side pinning. The liner purpose was never to block light. It was to stop the gap forming between the tub and the substrate so that side pins won't form there

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Offlinesgfccchamber
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: looking4Spores]
    #22769547 - 01/12/16 10:53 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

tak18 said:
I just thought of this crazy idea as an extension to your experiment that may be pointless but I want to say it anyway. Depending on the results of your experiment, I would be interested in seeing how increasing the surface area more would affect the yield by shaping the substrate to form 8 pyramids with each 4 sides. For the current accordion one you have, imagine carving another trough lengthwise. And adding angled faces to each including on the edges of the tub.

Here is a very detailed picture I made in MS paint of what I'm describing:



I'm curious to know if your experiment shows any increase in yield. Good luck!




I'm all about increasing the surface area to the maximum possible, but the problem begins to come from the amount of time it takes to get that shape and preventing the compaction of the substrate during that process (too compact of a substrate can lead to anaerobic areas which leads to bacterial contamination).

I just bought two hemisphere cake pans online (when put together they make a perfect sphere).  They're 10" in diameter.  Reason for this is because there is nothing that has a greater surface area than a sphere :smile:

To give you an idea of the increase, a 10" sphere has a surface area of 312 inches and a volume of 524 cubic inches.  524 cubic inches is equal to 9 quarts.  I have a "mini mono" that, at a 3" substrate depth, has a volume of 9 quarts also.  It's dimensions are 16"x11".  That means that mini mono, which takes the same exact amount of substrate to fill as the two hemisphere pans will, has a surface area of 176".

So by using two half sphere (hemisphere) cakepans, I'll be able to get a 77% increase in fruitable surface area...while taking up less space! (since the "footprint" of the substrate is only 10"x10").


When they come I'll be putting up a thread using those.

Quote:

looking4Spores said:
Hello :hi: 

Is there a reason for using a clear liner, rather than a black one?


Interesting experiment you've got going.

:takingnotes:




Yes, I'll give a more elaborate reply below but I'll summarize with a simple explanation:  I use clear liners for the same reason we don't use opaque jars for our grains/PF jars in this hobby...so I can see what's going on with regard to colonization.  You wouldn't rely on only being able to see the top surface of a colonizing grain jar to determine how far along it was would you?  Of course not...so then why do that with a monotub by using a black liner?

The only thing that causes side pinning is when you have better conditions on the sides of the tub than you do at the surface, not light.  There is no reason to keep light from hitting the sides of the substrate.  I have no issues with sidepins whatsoever using clear liners.  The lining shrinks a long with the substrate as if it's "shrinkwrapped" which prevents evaporation from the sides of the substrate, along with preventing the sides of the substrate from getting any direct fresh air.  That prevents sidepinning because the only area of the substrate with ideal conditions for fruiting is the surface.

Using a clear liner allows me to get a 360 degree view of my colonizing tub, which allows me to see if there are areas that haven't yet colonized or are infected with bacteria and so on.  By using a black liner you're gaining nothing and losing plenty.


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Mushroom / Bulk Substrate Calculator <- Tells you exactly how much of what ingredients you need for any substrate for any container!
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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: sgfccchamber]
    #22769589 - 01/12/16 11:02 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

While I find these things really interesting myself, I still feel the need to mention that increased fruiting area does not necessarily translate to more yield.

Am curious for results tho.

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Offlinesgfccchamber
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22769637 - 01/12/16 11:13 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
While I find these things really interesting myself, I still feel the need to mention that increased fruiting area does not necessarily translate to more yield.

Am curious for results tho.




Hypothetically speaking, imagine you could fruit these two tubs forever, until they were simply not capable of producing fruits any longer, without any fear of contamination.  Then I couldn't agree more with the statement "increased surface area does not translate to an increase in yield".

However, since contamination is an issue we have to deal with, we discard substrates either when or before they contaminate.  That means that each substrate, at the time we've discarded it, has more than likely not produced all that it is capable of producing.  So when I say an increase in yield, I'm not referring to the hypothetical yield that is referred to when making the argument "a given substrate can only produce so much, regardless of surface area".  I'm referring to the real world yield that comes from what you're actually able to harvest before you're forced to throw away the substrate.

So, in my opinion, if the first flush of the second tub is 33% larger than the first flush of the first tub, that IS a bigger yield, because in my area, I typically toss a substrate after the first flush anyway and replace it with a new one because keeping it around for the second flush isn't worth it when compared to what I'd be getting from a new tub.


--------------------
========================================================================================
Mushroom / Bulk Substrate Calculator <- Tells you exactly how much of what ingredients you need for any substrate for any container!
Here is the corresponding shroomery thread: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22736300/page/1

Easy Bulk Substrate Pasteurizer - Hands Free Operation
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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: sgfccchamber]
    #22769665 - 01/12/16 11:19 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

You have missed the point. Has nothing to do with contams. My point was that surface area only affects yield to a point. Reason being is that if you have less surface area the colony will simply make up for fewer pin sites with putting more energy into the fruits that are there.

Bulk bottles top fruited have way less surface area than a monotub yet, often outperform them with higher BE per flush and more flushes overall.

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Offlinesgfccchamber
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22769696 - 01/12/16 11:25 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
You have missed the point. Has nothing to do with contams. My point was that surface area only affects yield to a point. Reason being is that if you have less surface area the colony will simply make up for fewer pin sites with putting more energy into the fruits that are there.

Bulk bottles top fruited have way less surface area than a monotub yet, often outperform them with higher BE per flush and more flushes overall.




The contamination point was just for example, but far from the core of my argument with regard to surface area & yield.  The core of my argument was contained within this part of my reply:

Quote:

So when I say an increase in yield, I'm not referring to the hypothetical yield that is referred to when making the argument "a given substrate can only produce so much, regardless of surface area".  I'm referring to the real world yield that comes from what you're actually able to harvest before you're forced to throw away the substrate.

So, in my opinion, if the first flush of the second tub is 33% larger than the first flush of the first tub, that IS a bigger yield, because in my area, I typically toss a substrate after the first flush anyway and replace it with a new one because keeping it around for the second flush isn't worth it when compared to what I'd be getting from a new tub.





I'm HOPING that with the increase in surface area, I'll have a larger first flush, which in my opinion would be a larger overall yield since I typically discard my monotubs after the first flush anyway.


--------------------
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Mushroom / Bulk Substrate Calculator <- Tells you exactly how much of what ingredients you need for any substrate for any container!
Here is the corresponding shroomery thread: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22736300/page/1

Easy Bulk Substrate Pasteurizer - Hands Free Operation
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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: sgfccchamber]
    #22769715 - 01/12/16 11:31 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Have a look at how little surface area this substrate has. Yet it is sitting around 200% BE. I can fit 15 of these in a mono and get 200 grams  wet on average first flush. 15 quarts total substrate is around what a standard mono would have (maybe a bit less) but with much less fruiting area. Do that math and tell me about the yield again.


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Offlinesgfccchamber
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22769878 - 01/12/16 11:59 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Have a look at how little surface area this substrate has. Yet it is sitting around 200% BE. I can fit 15 of these in a mono and get 200 grams  wet on average first flush. 15 quarts total substrate is around what a standard mono would have (maybe a bit less) but with much less fruiting area. Do that math and tell me about the yield again.





Why are so many people keen on arguing?  "Do that math and tell me about the yield again"...what are you talking about?  In the post you replied to with the above quote I said:

Quote:

I'm HOPING that with the increase in surface area, I'll have a larger first flush, which in my opinion would be a larger overall yield since I typically discard my monotubs after the first flush anyway.




I didn't tell you about anything.  I've simply formed a hypothesis, set up an experiment to test it and am posting my results.  I didn't say I was right and you were wrong.

Lastly, I feel compelled to point out what you posted is apples and oranges anyway.  I'm not testing my increased surface area monotub for yields against 15 quart jars in some kind of fruiting chamber.  I'm testing a regular monotub for yields against the same sized monotub with an increased surface area.


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Mushroom / Bulk Substrate Calculator <- Tells you exactly how much of what ingredients you need for any substrate for any container!
Here is the corresponding shroomery thread: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22736300/page/1

Easy Bulk Substrate Pasteurizer - Hands Free Operation
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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: sgfccchamber]
    #22769925 - 01/12/16 12:08 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Dude calm yerself. I am not trying to dump on ya. I just want you to be aware that available surface area is not a direct translation into more fruits or greater yield. So far your efforts seem to all be directed into increasing surface or fruiting area. I just wanted you to be aware of the potential limitations and or drawbacks of extra fruiting area.

By the way if you read the post you would see that I fruited the jars in a monotub. Same size box, same space dedicated to fruiting. It's not apples to oranges, it's comparing efficiency of space. Which is the whole point is it not?

I said in my previous post that I was interested in how this plays out. I still am. Assuming that your efforts with this are intended to result in greater yields, I thought it might be a good idea to let you understand how that may or may not work in your favor.

Jesus people are fucking sensitive these days. My apologies for questioning you good sir. I shall resolve myself to share less in the future :hatsoff:

Edited by Pastywhyte (01/12/16 12:13 PM)

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Offlinesgfccchamber
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22769952 - 01/12/16 12:17 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry Pasty, nothing but a miscommunication then.  Sometimes the problem with the electronic forms of communication that are so prevalent nowadays (email, text messages, forums, etc) is that there is no tone or cadence that comes along with the words.

I thought you were being aggressive in your post, and I then posted what I posted (in what I thought was a nice fashion...but again, no tone or cadence to accompany it).  We each are misinterpreting one another as being aggressive I think when neither of us intended that.  Sorry about that!  I appreciate input from any side or perspective, so please don't keep things to yourself.


--------------------
========================================================================================
Mushroom / Bulk Substrate Calculator <- Tells you exactly how much of what ingredients you need for any substrate for any container!
Here is the corresponding shroomery thread: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22736300/page/1

Easy Bulk Substrate Pasteurizer - Hands Free Operation
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Edited by sgfccchamber (01/12/16 12:18 PM)

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Invisiblethe_r3dz
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22769969 - 01/12/16 12:22 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

All I know is that those fruits are going to be super cool looking coming all directions out of that sphere. I love Muda's pictures where he put the sub in his mono on it's side, having all the fruits coming out of both big sides. It looked amazing.

Unrelated, Pasty do you have any pictures of a full canopy of a tub filled with bottles? I'm not certain how I would even word that in the search bar. Monotub with bottles?

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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: sgfccchamber]
    #22769972 - 01/12/16 12:22 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

No worries man. I know my posting style is often blunt, it gets me in trouble occasionally. At any rate I have some things that both intrigue and concern me regarding this. But it should be good to watch :popcorn:

I highly suspect it's going to be a wash in terms of the yields of the side by side. Hopefully not but regardless we should be able to make a few good observations along the way.

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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: the_r3dz]
    #22769985 - 01/12/16 12:26 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

the_r3dz said:
Unrelated, Pasty do you have any pictures of a full canopy of a tub filled with bottles? I'm not certain how I would even word that in the search bar. Monotub with bottles?




You know what I don't, often the bottles are a day or two apart. Muda has run a lot more of them than me, I imagine he would have a few good pics.

Best I can do is this one, which is an oddly dimensioned tub and most of the bottles are just pinning. That might be a goal of mine for this year, get some mono bottle canopies going.


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: "No Hole" Monotub Clone Grow Log - Side-by-Side Dual Tub Grow to Test Method for Increased Yield [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22770108 - 01/12/16 01:01 PM (8 years, 1 month ago)

:popcorn: good stuff guys!

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