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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
Loc: oz
100th monkey phenom
    #2276662 - 01/27/04 05:16 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"The Japanese monkey, Macaca fuscata, had been observed in the wild for a period of over 30 years.

In 1952, on the island of Koshima, scientists were providing monkeys with sweet potatoes dropped in the sand. The monkey liked the taste of the raw sweet potatoes, but they found the dirt unpleasant.

An 18-month-old female named Imo found she could solve the problem by washing the potatoes in a nearby stream. She taught this trick to her mother. Her playmates also learned this new way and they taught their mothers too.

This cultural innovation was gradually picked up by various monkeys before the eyes of the scientists. Between 1952 and 1958 all the young monkeys learned to wash the sandy sweet potatoes to make them more palatable. Only the adults who imitated their children learned this social improvement. Other adults kept eating the dirty sweet potatoes.

Then something startling took place. In the autumn of 1958, a certain number of Koshima monkeys were washing sweet potatoes -- the exact number is not known. Let us suppose that when the sun rose one morning there were 99 monkeys on Koshima Island who had learned to wash their sweet potatoes. Let's further suppose that later that morning, the hundredth monkey learned to wash potatoes.

THEN IT HAPPENED! By that evening almost everyone in the tribe was washing sweet potatoes before eating them. The added energy of this hundredth monkey somehow created an ideological breakthrough!

But notice: A most surprising thing observed by these scientists was that the habit of washing sweet potatoes then jumped over the sea... Colonies of monkeys on other islands and the mainland troop of monkeys at Takasakiyama began washing their sweet potatoes.

Thus, when a certain critical number achieves an awareness, this new awareness may be communicated from mind to mind.

Although the exact number may vary, this Hundredth Monkey Phenomenon means that when only a limited number of people know of a new way, it may remain the conscious property of these people.

But there is a point at which if only one more person tunes in to a new awareness, a field is strengthened so that this awareness is picked up by almost everyone!"-Kenneth Keys Jr


I've heard about this for quite sometime until I decided to read about it. I'm still somewhat confused by this principle. so if enough people reached a heightened awreness, it'll make it so that everyone will be able to reach it as well? What does this imply about consciousness.

does this imply then that something someone does regarding consciousness in china will have an effect on me here in the states? If so then that means we all share a connection somehow with each other.

so we could have this criticle mass and once we pass it, then others can easily attain what so many of us worked for? would this benefit the planet? i think it would. if msot of us came to an understanding that we are all connected with each other, then fighting each other would be rendered completely pointless, wouldn't it?


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: kaiowas]
    #2276675 - 01/27/04 05:31 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry to say, but this story is false. Do a little more research.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: kaiowas]
    #2276800 - 01/27/04 07:34 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I've read about this behaviour in macacas. Never heard anything about the hundredth monkey, or anything like it, though.

I think this is the original source (haven't read it):

Galef B. G. (1992) The question of animal culture.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: muhurgle]
    #2276822 - 01/27/04 07:56 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Say someone on the planet comes up with an original idea, and implements that idea towards accomplishing something. Well, the second that idea is passed through their brain, it's no longer possible for it to be an original idea. (in this case, lets assume that 'original idea' means no one else on the planet has thought of it) Somewhere, someone is going to come up with this idea as well. Depending on how related to day to day life this idea is, it may take seconds, minutes, or possible years for this idea to be thought by someone else, but once someone learns something, it's bound to be learned by someone else somewhere, be it by discovery or guidance... Once two people think this idea, a third, and fourth, so on and so forth, and eventually everyone will have thought this idea. This idea could be simple as getting the glass out of the cupboard at the same time as opening the fridge, or it could be infinitely complex... the 100th monkey, (no matter how false a story) doesn't prove in a connection in conciousness... it only marks an evolutionary step in monkeys.. call it lucky timing, or call it telepathy, one thing must remain in question: were the scientists studying the monkeys in Koshima also studying the monkey's on the other continents, and if not, how do they know they didn't already know how to wash the potatos?

As much as I love this kinda theory, and as much as I believe the possibility exists, I conclude this study/story/whatever to be inconclusive.


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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Anonymous

Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: kaiowas]
    #2276899 - 01/27/04 09:06 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: ]
    #2276928 - 01/27/04 09:39 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Where I've read about the behaviour displayed by these macacas, it's been presented as behaviour which initially resembles the cultural learning which we humans are capable of, but when examined more closely is nothing more than individual learning.

What's interesting, is that it seems that some birds exhibit cultural learning. They can invent new songs which then spread much like human culture. As far as I know, this behaviour has been witnessed in several types of birds, but not in any other animals.

Btw, BBC Science had a story yesterday about a "humorous, telepathic parrot which stuns scientists".. hmm :smile:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3430481.stm


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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Anonymous

Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: muhurgle]
    #2276950 - 01/27/04 10:04 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
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Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: ]
    #2276958 - 01/27/04 10:08 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

haha MM

heh, damn false huh??  :lol:  don't I feel feel dumb  :crazy2:

j/k

i guess a little more research is in order :grin:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Anonymous

Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: kaiowas]
    #2276970 - 01/27/04 10:14 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
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Registered: 01/30/03
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Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: kaiowas]
    #2276997 - 01/27/04 10:21 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Well...damn, I was about to go into a long rambling tangent about Collective Consciousness and shtuff..OH well.


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Anonymous

Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2277002 - 01/27/04 10:23 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: ]
    #2277006 - 01/27/04 10:24 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I only included the parrot story as an anecdotal aside, I weren't saying that I believe birds are capable of propositional speech.

What is relevant to this discussion is that the mechanisms of cultural transfer might not be present in the macacas, but they are appearantly present in birds. This mechanism is admittedly only a small part of what we think of as intelligence and culture, but it's the closest resemblance of human behaviour that we know of in animals (as far as I know).

So, while kaiowas story is just a story, there are other valid examples.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
Loc: oz
Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2277009 - 01/27/04 10:25 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

please ramble on!!! it was these questions I was really intereested in actually.  but since 100th monkey decided to shit itself a brick and sink, so did my questions :grin:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Anonymous

Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: muhurgle]
    #2277027 - 01/27/04 10:34 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
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Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: Swami]
    #2277232 - 01/27/04 12:08 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

See, it's a good thing that you skeptic types are around. I would buy that story and not go check it out on my own, even though it seems a little weird that the behavior would "jump" the ocean. I buy into the "shared" knowledge thing.

MM, are you considered a skeptic? I would say you are one, also.

Who would be the skeptics on this forum? Never mind. I shouldn't hijack the thread, and it might be a touchy subject anyways.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: 100th monkey phenom [Re: ]
    #2277522 - 01/27/04 02:01 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I've read about studies on bird song in a book by Blackmore (The Meme Machine), and in a book by Dawkins (maybe The Selfish Gene, I'm not sure). Blackmore references 'Social Learning in Animals: The roots of culture' by Heyes & Galef.

I couldn't find any articles on the mechanism of transfer itself, but Googling for 'bird song culture' gives many articles on how the cultural transfer of bird song might (or might not) drive the genetic evolution of birds.

I did find an article called 'Culture in whales and dolphins' where they mention birds:

http://www.dal.ca/~whitelab/lr/culture.pdf

From the introduction:

"When stable over generations, culture can strongly affect biological evolution, in both theory and practice - much of human behaviour is determined by a broad range of cultural processes, and there is good evidence for a gene-culture coevolution in our species. In contrast, among nonhuman animals culture is much simpler, rarer, and except possibly in the case of bird song, thought not to have the stability necessary to make a substantial impact on genetic evolution."

It's quite long, and I haven't read it all, but it says a lot about possible cultural transfer in whales and dolphins. Chapter 4 is about the transmission process. There's also a lot of comments on the article following it.

Anyway, I'm not an expert of course, but it seems that there are many experts who believe there are examples of cultural transfer between some animals.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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