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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade.
    #2275078 - 01/26/04 03:23 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

what's the most ethical position?  what are the positions? how does america make money after all the manufacturing/ farming moves to places with cheaper labor and we're all "service industry" people? who do we serve? 

I want easy answers, damn it!  :mad:


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Posts: 3,392
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2275166 - 01/26/04 04:09 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

wait!, collect your thoughts then make your post....they never really seem anything more than disjointed questions/rant.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2275214 - 01/26/04 04:21 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

I want easy answers, damn it!



Then listen to Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilley. If you want intelligent answers, well, that's another story.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2275364 - 01/26/04 05:09 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

I want easy answers, damn it!



Then listen to Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilley. If you want intelligent answers, well, that's another story.





or I could read adbusters. they've got some pretty easy ones too.

Quote:

wait!, collect your thoughts then make your post....they never really seem anything more than disjointed questions/rant.




see, that's what debate is - collecting thoughts. but if you're done, then why don't you share the set?

my questions are grouped as they are to frame the issue somewhat.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2275382 - 01/26/04 05:16 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
what's the most ethical position? 




There isn't a 'most ethical' postion.

Quote:

Malachi said:
what are the positions?




check your karma sutra....

Quote:

Malachi said:how does america make money after all the manufacturing/ farming moves to places with cheaper labor and we're all "service industry" people?




Secondary industries too, don't forget.

Quote:

Malachi said:who do we serve? 




The people who work the secondary industries, tourists, service personel who are off work, anyone that has money to blow...

Quote:

Malachi said:I want easy answers, damn it!  :mad:




Does that satisfy you? :rolleyes:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2275444 - 01/26/04 05:41 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

There isn't a 'most ethical' postion.




you're denying the existence of ethics?  care to defend that claim?

Quote:

check your karma sutra....





:blush:

Quote:

Secondary industries too, don't forget.





like.... underwater basket weaving?

Quote:

The people who work the secondary industries, tourists, service personel who are off work, anyone that has money to blow...




so... the weavers and rich people from other countries will provide for the rest of us, huh?  about as likely as expecting everyone to derive income from tech.

Quote:

Does that satisfy you? 




***Edited by Rono...Don't even think about flaming in this forum...I suggest you read the forum rules before posting in here again...Consider this your warning.***


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


Edited by Rono (01/27/04 11:09 AM)


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2277488 - 01/27/04 11:44 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

oh come on, that was so obviously sarcastic. "deleted by Rono...What part of "No-Flaming" and "Strictly Enforced" is unclear?..."


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


Edited by Rono (01/27/04 04:44 PM)


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2277494 - 01/27/04 11:49 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

come on people, trade is such a murky ethical issue, a topic that could actually have a chance of being fleshed out in a forum (vs endless back and forth).

wow me with some political savvy.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Anonymous

Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2277513 - 01/27/04 11:55 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

come on people, trade is such a murky ethical issue, a topic that could actually have a chance of being fleshed out in a forum (vs endless back and forth).

how, as long as the trades are voluntary and honest, can people trading with eachother be a "murky ethical issue"?


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
    #2277536 - 01/27/04 12:11 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

because of the effects of such trade. even assuming that the western world is just "better" at trading then everyone else, can the consequences of our superiority really be stomached? little girls are whoring themselves all over southeast asia, and I bet they don't like it. personally, I'd like to see child whoring stopped. but I'd also like america to enjoy good times.

see the quagmire?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2277681 - 01/27/04 01:22 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
wow me with some political savvy.




go wow yourself...,and you wonder why your threads get little responce. :rolleyes:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2277800 - 01/27/04 02:01 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

because of the effects of such trade. even assuming that the western world is just "better" at trading then everyone else, can the consequences of our superiority really be stomached?

i'm sorry, but i fail to see the connection between free trade and child prostitution. how does free trade aggravate poverty?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
    #2278045 - 01/27/04 03:07 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

You all miss the point.

Here is the answer he wants and is most likely the only one he will accept.


AMERICA IS EVIL! KILL WHITEY!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2278341 - 01/27/04 04:57 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

im sure he is wowed by your easy, but politically savay responce... :lol:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278369 - 01/27/04 05:05 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade.

One entry found for free trade.
Main Entry: free trade
Function: noun
: trade based on the unrestricted international exchange of goods with tariffs used only as a source of revenue

One entry found for protectionist.
Main Entry: pro?tec?tion?ist
Pronunciation: -sh(&-)nist
Function: noun
: an advocate of government economic protection for domestic producers through restrictions on foreign competitors
- pro?tec?tion?ism  /-sh&-"ni-z&m/ noun
- protectionist adjective

:smirk:

i was all about free trade until i moved up to maine and saw what the florida orange crop was doing to the orange farmers up there. i mean... it's hard enough to grow orange trees up there, and ontop of that, they have to deal with competition from florida. shit ain't right. i see alot of ex-orange farmers up in maine... thrown out of work cause of that damn free trade. bah!


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2278380 - 01/27/04 05:07 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
Quote:

Malachi said:
wow me with some political savvy.




go wow yourself...,and you wonder why your threads get little responce. :rolleyes:




no, I don't think a little sarcasm is the reason for a lack of response.  I think people are more interested in railing on the same old shit instead of engaging in a possibly fruitful discussion.  there aren't easy answers to ethical trade (despite my facetious claim of wanting them.)

you seem like a very solemn person.  :frown:


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278395 - 01/27/04 05:10 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

The most ethical trade is to allow to parties who mutually agree without the use of force or threat of force on exchanging goods, services or currency to do so.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
    #2278396 - 01/27/04 05:10 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:

i'm sorry, but i fail to see the connection between free trade and child prostitution. how does free trade aggravate poverty?




we have ostensibly "free" trade with asian countries that are poverty strucken. if we are to accept such a claim, then it stands to reason that we're just so good at trading that we get all the resources, hence all that little girls in thailand have to trade is their bodies. which americans buy.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
    #2278408 - 01/27/04 05:13 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade.

One entry found for free trade.
Main Entry: free trade
Function: noun
: trade based on the unrestricted international exchange of goods with tariffs used only as a source of revenue

One entry found for protectionist.
Main Entry: pro?tec?tion?ist
Pronunciation: -sh(&-)nist
Function: noun
: an advocate of government economic protection for domestic producers through restrictions on foreign competitors
- pro?tec?tion?ism  /-sh&-"ni-z&m/ noun
- protectionist adjective

:smirk:

i was all about free trade until i moved up to maine and saw what the florida orange crop was doing to the orange farmers up there. i mean... it's hard enough to grow orange trees up there, and ontop of that, they have to deal with competition from florida. shit ain't right. i see alot of ex-orange farmers up in maine... thrown out of work cause of that damn free trade. bah!




well, it's not quite so bad, seeing as how their is welfare in maine.  the third world isn't so fortunate.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Anonymous

Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278413 - 01/27/04 05:15 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

we have ostensibly "free" trade with asian countries that are poverty strucken. if we are to accept such a claim, then it stands to reason that we're just so good at trading that we get all the resources, hence all that little girls in thailand have to trade is their bodies. which americans buy.

trading with us is not the cause of the poverty you see there. tariffs provide short-term benefit to some at the expense of others, and the overall effect is negative.

trade is good. trade is specialization. it is efficiency.


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Anonymous

Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278420 - 01/27/04 05:18 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

well, it's not quite so bad, seeing as how their is welfare in maine. the third world isn't so fortunate.

yes, they are fortunate indeed. however, i've also been to florida, and let me tell you.. the unemployed there are not as fortunate. i've seen many a good man put out of work on account of free trade down there. i knew whole communities of maple tappers that had to find new lines of work, all because they couldn't compete with maple syrup shipped down from maine. i tell ya... it's a damn shame.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278426 - 01/27/04 05:19 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
Quote:

mushmaster said:
i was all about free trade until i moved up to maine and saw what the florida orange crop was doing to the orange farmers up there. i mean... it's hard enough to grow orange trees up there, and ontop of that, they have to deal with competition from florida. shit ain't right. i see alot of ex-orange farmers up in maine... thrown out of work cause of that damn free trade. bah!




well, it's not quite so bad, seeing as how their is welfare in maine. the third world isn't so fortunate.



You must be wearin' a hat or something, 'cause that went RIGHT over your head and you didn't even notice.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineMalachi
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Posts: 1,294
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Evolving]
    #2278428 - 01/27/04 05:20 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
The most ethical trade is to allow to parties who mutually agree without the use of force or threat of force on exchanging goods, services or currency to do so.




even when the result is vastly disproportionate quality of life? sure, it seems that such a utilitarian position is good "in the long run" since the more efficient producers thrive, but if that means a regional depression, shouldn't some kind of safeguard at least ensure the lack of little girl prostitutes?

or in a less entreme case, think of the flint, MI example from rodger and me. wouldn't it be more ethical/ socially responsible to help those workers segue into a new line of work? must the ramifications of markets be left unchecked? adam smith of the "invisible hand" presupposed full education, as such, people wouldn't have to turn tricks to eat under nearly any circumstance.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278434 - 01/27/04 05:22 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Er...maybe I'm missing something here, but explain to me how free trade and child prostitution are linked?  :confused:


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278490 - 01/27/04 05:34 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
even when the result is vastly disproportionate quality of life?



How's that? Who benefits from U.S. tariffs on textiles, the more affluent U.S. producers or the third world producers trying to raise their standards of living? Do the consumers benefit by paying higher prices and having the difference go to support a bigger and more intrusive government, and having inefficient industries protected so they can continue to be inefficient? Do you like government favoring big business and protecting it from start up companies who can deliver products at lower prices and of possibly higher quality?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
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Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
    #2278573 - 01/27/04 05:53 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
well, it's not quite so bad, seeing as how their is welfare in maine. the third world isn't so fortunate.

yes, they are fortunate indeed. however, i've also been to florida, and let me tell you.. the unemployed there are not as fortunate. i've seen many a good man put out of work on account of free trade down there. i knew whole communities of maple tappers that had to find new lines of work, all because they couldn't compete with maple syrup shipped down from maine. i tell ya... it's a damn shame.





these are examples of free trade acting without severe human consequence. but keep avoiding my point, it only makes you intellectually dishonest.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Anonymous

Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278590 - 01/27/04 05:57 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

these are examples of free trade acting without severe human consequence. but keep avoiding my point, it only makes you intellectually dishonest.

they are examples of the stupidity of restrictions on free exchange. if we applied the same ideas to every locale, do you know what sort of shape we'd be in? trying to protect steel workers in southern california and computer manufacturers in pittsburg... fishermen in kansas and corn farmers in boston...

it's absurd. it may help some people in the short term (kansas fishermen, socal steel makers), but only at a cost to others, and the overall affect on everyone is a net decrease in efficiency, employment, and production.

trade is good.


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
    #2278595 - 01/27/04 05:59 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:

trading with us is not the cause of the poverty you see there. tariffs provide short-term benefit to some at the expense of others, and the overall effect is negative.

trade is good. trade is specialization. it is efficiency.




unrestricted trade certainly doesn't help.  if asian countries traded in closed markets (as they did for all of history before the advent of tech to make global trade possible) they might not have as many durable goods, but they also wouldn't have a gigantic flesh trade marketed towards westerners.

so, yes, flesh trading is a result of unrestricted trade, in the most literal sense.  the "short term benefits" of protectionism would seem a tad bit more important to the little girls who are freely trading, but you apparently care only about the overall bottom line.  :shake:


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278597 - 01/27/04 05:59 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
Quote:

mushmaster said:
yes, they are fortunate indeed. however, i've also been to florida, and let me tell you.. the unemployed there are not as fortunate. i've seen many a good man put out of work on account of free trade down there. i knew whole communities of maple tappers that had to find new lines of work, all because they couldn't compete with maple syrup shipped down from maine. i tell ya... it's a damn shame.





these are examples of free trade acting without severe human consequence. but keep avoiding my point, it only makes you intellectually dishonest.



No these are examples of sarcasm being used to make a point. It must be a REALLY big and thick hat for you not to feel all these things flying over your head. Are you wearing some sort of ear plugs too, so you don't hear the 'whoosh?'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
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Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Evolving]
    #2278600 - 01/27/04 06:00 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
You must be wearin' a hat or something, 'cause that went RIGHT over your head and you didn't even notice.




no, it just wasn't funny, so I took it at face value to make my point. :rolleyes:


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

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Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278628 - 01/27/04 06:07 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. :wink:


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278653 - 01/27/04 06:13 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

things like child prostitution, slavery, etc. are a totally different thing. these are not "free trade". the childwhoring is relevant only insofar as it comes as the result of poverty. the question is... does free trade cause this poverty? are they poorer as a nation for trading with us? no, they aren't. they're wealthier.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Evolving]
    #2278658 - 01/27/04 06:14 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

Malachi said:
even when the result is vastly disproportionate quality of life?



How's that? Who benefits from U.S. tariffs on textiles, the more affluent U.S. producers or the third world producers trying to raise their standards of living? Do the consumers benefit by paying higher prices and having the difference go to support a bigger and more intrusive government, and having inefficient industries protected so they can continue to be inefficient? Do you like government favoring big business and protecting it from start up companies who can deliver products at lower prices and of possibly higher quality?




I'm not talking about us protection (in this case, however, there are arguements for it) but protection of third world markets. the only way (as I understand it) for a poverty struck area to raise standards of living is to export their way out of poverty. the most common ethical appeal to this effect is that the west ought to ease it up a bit, stop flooding the third world with goods, allowing their own markets to make some money.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Anonymous

Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278669 - 01/27/04 06:16 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

the most common ethical appeal to this effect is that the west ought to ease it up a bit, stop flooding the third world with goods, allowing their own markets to make some money.

i'd use the word "nonsensical".


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Le_Canard]
    #2278673 - 01/27/04 06:18 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Er...maybe I'm missing something here, but explain to me how free trade and child prostitution are linked?  :confused:




free trade allows rich countries to sell stuff to the poor countries; to export more than import.  this effectively keeps the third world in poverty, leading them to persue the only markets available to them: sex trade, drugs, fighting wars, etc.  not growing food or making products.  of course, american companies make use of cheap ass third world labor, but this does nothing for their ability to sustainably raise their standard of living, as they aren't actually exporting the products they make: america is.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
    #2278699 - 01/27/04 06:27 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:

they are examples of the stupidity of restrictions on free exchange. if we applied the same ideas to every locale, do you know what sort of shape we'd be in? trying to protect steel workers in southern california and computer manufacturers in pittsburg... fishermen in kansas and corn farmers in boston...

it's absurd. it may help some people in the short term (kansas fishermen, socal steel makers), but only at a cost to others, and the overall affect on everyone is a net decrease in efficiency, employment, and production.

trade is good.




yes, I understand the stock argument for free trade. you parrot it very well. what distinguishes my examples from yours is that people in the third world don't have social protection programs, so they have to whore themselves out/ grow drugs for the west/ kill each other. in america this isn't a problem, so yeah, there's no real reason for state to state protection. oranges grow good in florida and maple sryup is abundant in maine.

-however-

I can also see how national protectionism may become more and more necessary to keep enough americans employed to maintain an economic base. other countries have way cheaper labor, and as if that wasn't problem enough, our own corporations can make use of said cheap labor, leaving americans out of jobs. as I said before, we can't all be "service industy" workers, nor have any examples of "secondary industries" with enough base been presented.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Evolving]
    #2278709 - 01/27/04 06:30 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
No these are examples of sarcasm being used to make a point. It must be a REALLY big and thick hat for you not to feel all these things flying over your head. Are you wearing some sort of ear plugs too, so you don't hear the 'whoosh?'




again, I too watch TV, and am therefore quite informed as to the stock argument for free trade. that you actually think that this "point" is of such depth that anyone would "miss" it is beyond lame.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Anonymous

Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278717 - 01/27/04 06:32 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

free trade allows rich countries to sell stuff to the poor countries

yep. conversely, it allows the poor countries to buy stuff from the rich ones. do not forget that buying and selling are two sides of the same coin. there really is no difference. when you buy something, you are also selling something. when you sell something, you are also buying something.

when thailand buys harley davidson motorcycles, it buys them in thai bahts. if we are to make any use of these bahts, we need to purchase things from thailand... lightbulbs perhaps. the thais produce that which they have a comparitive advantage in and we build that which we have a comparitive advantage producing. it doesn't make sense for us to make lightbulbs when the thais can make them cheaper, or for them to make motorcycles when we can make them cheaper.

hey wait a minute... i thought in the beginning of this thread you said that the US was becoming more and more service oriented and that all the manufacturing and farming jobs would be overseas.  :confused:

this effectively keeps the third world in poverty, leading them to persue the only markets available to them: sex trade, drugs, fighting wars, etc.

that doesn't logically follow. dumping cheap goods on a nation hardly impoverishes them.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
    #2278734 - 01/27/04 06:42 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
things like child prostitution, slavery, etc. are a totally different thing. these are not "free trade". the childwhoring is relevant only insofar as it comes as the result of poverty. the question is... does free trade cause this poverty? are they poorer as a nation for trading with us? no, they aren't. they're wealthier.




no, they're not, we are. they get to buy cheaper stuff, but they don't build an economic base of industry - except for sex/drugs/killing. they buy our shit cause they are so poor that they can't plan for the future- they need food NOW, and are forced to do whatever they need to to get it.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
    #2278750 - 01/27/04 06:51 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
free trade allows rich countries to sell stuff to the poor countries

yep. conversely, it allows the poor countries to buy stuff from the rich ones. do not forget that buying and selling are two sides of the same coin. there really is no difference. when you buy something, you are also selling something. when you sell something, you are also buying something.

when thailand buys harley davidson motorcycles, it buys them in thai bahts. if we are to make any use of these bahts, we need to purchase things from thailand... lightbulbs perhaps. the thais produce that which they have a comparitive advantage in and we build that which we have a comparitive advantage producing. it doesn't make sense for us to make lightbulbs when the thais can make them cheaper, or for them to make motorcycles when we can make them cheaper.

hey wait a minute... i thought in the beginning of this thread you said that the US was becoming more and more service oriented and that all the manufacturing and farming jobs would be overseas.  :confused:

this effectively keeps the third world in poverty, leading them to persue the only markets available to them: sex trade, drugs, fighting wars, etc.

that doesn't logically follow. dumping cheap goods on a nation hardly impoverishes them.




see, they can't compete with the west in anything but offering cheap labor and avoiding ethical conflicts (environment, sex laws, drug laws, etc).  so that's what they do.  if there were (hypothetically) lightbulb manufacturing in thailand, they'd be owned by western companies, not by the people of those regions.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Anonymous

Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278884 - 01/27/04 07:35 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

no offense malachi, but you're making it pretty clear that you don't know shit about economics. or thailand for that matter.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
    #2279026 - 01/27/04 08:32 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
... you're making it pretty clear that you don't know shit about economics.



It was amply clear from the very start of this thread.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Evolving]
    #2279288 - 01/27/04 10:20 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

yeah, I figured as much. you guys don't got shit.

perhaps you'd like to explain exactly how dumping cheap goods helps a country export its way out of poverty?

didn't think so. you must just "know" a lot about econ.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2279436 - 01/27/04 11:18 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

You are all over the place on this. In one post, you mention workers in Michigan, (" think of the flint, MI example from rodger and me.") then when I bring up U.S. tariffs on imported goods, you said, "I'm not talking about us protection."

You never answered the questions that pertain to tariffs in any country, so I will reiterate and expand on them to see if you can come up with some answers that make sense.

1) Do the poor people in developing countries benefit by paying higher prices and having the difference go to support a bigger and more intrusive government or to lining the pockets of the wealthy business men with political connections?

2) Is there a long term benefit to having inefficient industries protected so they can continue to be inefficient?

3) Do the poor people in developing countries benefit by having less disposable income due to protectionist tariffs?

4) Do you like government favoring big business and protecting it from start up companies who can deliver products at lower prices and of possibly higher quality?

If you were up on things, you would realize that the U.S. is the engine of growth for developing countries by it's purchase of goods from those countries. Please provide a list of 'cheap goods' the U.S. dumps on developing foreign markets, what does the U.S. sell to these poor countries where people can't afford indoor plumbing? Please provide a definition of 'dumping' as you understand it.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Evolving]
    #2279508 - 01/27/04 11:50 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

u are all over the place on this. In one post, you mention workers in Michigan, (" think of the flint, MI example from rodger and me.") then when I bring up U.S. tariffs on imported goods, you said, "I'm not talking about us protection." 




no shite. ethics in trade is a big shit can of problems, my contention isn't that "free" "fair" protectionist" or "nationalist" trade policy is ethical, it's that none of these positions are unchallenged by serious problems/ counters.  as such, I've been noting problems of self interest, communal interest, and global interest.  I understand that someone with "the answer" as you and mushmaster apparently claim to would have problems understanding this kind of approach.

Quote:

1) Do the poor people in developing countries benefit by paying higher prices and having the difference go to support a bigger and more intrusive government or to lining the pockets of the wealthy business men with political connections?





they wouldn't have to pay more if the west was required to use it's own labor pool, as they could still pay comparatively low wages, thereby standing a competitive chance (to sell cheap stuff).  this would of course not help the workers directly, but the american poor benefit greatly by sharing citizenship with weathly business men- it's safe to assume that as countries develop exporting bases other industry would grow around such a base, like service. how are regulated economies "intrusive" and to whom are they "intrusive"? 

Quote:

Is there a long term benefit to having inefficient industries protected so they can continue to be inefficient? 




yes, a lack of homeless poor people.  it's inefficient to pay more for american labor, but perhaps if forced to industry would in turn be forced to be massively more innovative than other countries, as was the case in the 1950's. 

Quote:

Do the poor people in developing countries benefit by having less disposable income due to protectionist tariffs?





perhaps not in the short term, but you've failed to mention why building exporting bases are so unimportant for poor countries to become unpoor.  do they just need to be really good shoppers, is that it?

Quote:

Do you like government favoring big business and protecting it from start up companies who can deliver products at lower prices and of possibly higher quality?





of course not.  that's why "intrusive" doesn't mean anything.  government could just as easily work as a check on big business (as was the general trend before incorporation).

Quote:

If you were up on things, you would realize that the U.S. is the engine of growth for developing countries by it's purchase of goods from those countries. Please provide a list of 'cheap goods' the U.S. dumps on developing foreign markets. What does the U.S. sell to these poor countries where people can't afford indoor plumbing? Please provide a definition of 'dumping' as you understand it. 




:nut:

yeah man, not being up on "things" is a good argument.  everyone who questions the ethical status of world trade must just not be "up on things". 

one example that I can think of off hand is food.  we sell a shit ton of grain to africa, and we take all their nuts.  the actual caloric exchange is vastly in our favor, but in monetary terms we sell way more than we buy.  this, of course, is because we subsidize the holy fuck out of our farms.  africa is a whole country of sun and people looking for work, but they still get cheaper grain from across the fucking ocean.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Anonymous

Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2280272 - 01/28/04 10:02 AM (20 years, 5 days ago)

perhaps you'd like to explain exactly how dumping cheap goods helps a country export its way out of poverty?

didn't think so. you must just "know" a lot about econ.


see if you can follow me here malachi...

let's say that there is a tariff in thailand against imported refrigerators. refrigerator manufacturers in thailand sell their refrigerators for the equivalent of $800. if there was free importation, thais could buy refrigerators from more efficient overseas competitors for only $500, so a $300 per refrigerator tariff has been enacted to protect thai refrigerator manufacturers. on the surface, this seems well and good. jobs in thailands refrigerator manufacturing are saved. people are working, machines are running, and refrigerators are being built, all thanks to the tariff.

but that is only on the surface. for every thai refrigerator bought in lieu of a foreign one, there is $300 less to spend on something else. for every extra $300 going to the refrigerator industry, $300 less is going to other industries (who then employ less people).

what's more, because imported refrigerators are bought with bahts, the foreign countries supplying the refrigerators must buy thai goods if they are to make any use of the money they recieve for them. this in turn further bolsters other industries in thailand.

as a result of the tariffs, there has been no net increase in employment. there is a decrease in both employment and production; things are being done inefficiently, and the inefficiency is even quantified. for every refrigerator produced in thailand, the equivalent of $300 is essentially wasted.

the only ones actually helped out by the tariffs are the execs of the thai refrigerator manufacturing firms, and at the expense of everyone else. the irony is that people like you don't even realize this, and swallow the lobbying of the manufacturing big wigs hook line and sinker, thinking that these measures are intended to help the working man. they aren't.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2282133 - 01/28/04 10:17 PM (20 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
ethics in trade is a big shit can of problems,...



Bottom line is as you seem to be argueing is that it is ethical for you or government agents to initiate force in peaceful interactions between human beings. Merely because of your superior elitist postion of enlightenment in knowing what's best for those involved.

Quote:

Quote:

Evolving said: 1) Do the poor people in developing countries benefit by paying higher prices and having the difference go to support a bigger and more intrusive government or to lining the pockets of the wealthy business men with political connections?




Malachi evaded and rationalized:
they wouldn't have to pay more if the west was required to use it's own labor pool, as they could still pay comparatively low wages, thereby standing a competitive chance (to sell cheap stuff). this would of course not help the workers directly, but the american poor benefit greatly by sharing citizenship with weathly business men- it's safe to assume that as countries develop exporting bases other industry would grow around such a base, like service....



Terribly transparent dodge and totally unfounded assumptions. Try a direct answer.

Quote:

Malachi said:
how are regulated economies "intrusive" and to whom are they "intrusive"?



Pretty apparent to those of us who can think. If the government intrudes upon peaceful trade between people with taxes (tariffs) designed to alter behavior, this is intrusive, GET IT?

Quote:

Quote:

Evolving said: Is there a long term benefit to having inefficient industries protected so they can continue to be inefficient?



Malachi said:
yes, a lack of homeless poor people. it's inefficient to pay more for american labor, but perhaps if forced to industry would in turn be forced to be massively more innovative than other countries, as was the case in the 1950's.



More unfounded assertions that ignore unintended consequences of government action in the peaceful activities of private individuals. Try again.

Quote:

Quote:

Evolving said: Do the poor people in developing countries benefit by having less disposable income due to protectionist tariffs?




Malachi said:
perhaps not in the short term



A more accurate and less evasive answer is, "No, they don't benefit, they are harmed by tariffs."


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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