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Anonymous

Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2278884 - 01/27/04 07:35 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

no offense malachi, but you're making it pretty clear that you don't know shit about economics. or thailand for that matter.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
    #2279026 - 01/27/04 08:32 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
... you're making it pretty clear that you don't know shit about economics.



It was amply clear from the very start of this thread.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Evolving]
    #2279288 - 01/27/04 10:20 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

yeah, I figured as much. you guys don't got shit.

perhaps you'd like to explain exactly how dumping cheap goods helps a country export its way out of poverty?

didn't think so. you must just "know" a lot about econ.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2279436 - 01/27/04 11:18 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

You are all over the place on this. In one post, you mention workers in Michigan, (" think of the flint, MI example from rodger and me.") then when I bring up U.S. tariffs on imported goods, you said, "I'm not talking about us protection."

You never answered the questions that pertain to tariffs in any country, so I will reiterate and expand on them to see if you can come up with some answers that make sense.

1) Do the poor people in developing countries benefit by paying higher prices and having the difference go to support a bigger and more intrusive government or to lining the pockets of the wealthy business men with political connections?

2) Is there a long term benefit to having inefficient industries protected so they can continue to be inefficient?

3) Do the poor people in developing countries benefit by having less disposable income due to protectionist tariffs?

4) Do you like government favoring big business and protecting it from start up companies who can deliver products at lower prices and of possibly higher quality?

If you were up on things, you would realize that the U.S. is the engine of growth for developing countries by it's purchase of goods from those countries. Please provide a list of 'cheap goods' the U.S. dumps on developing foreign markets, what does the U.S. sell to these poor countries where people can't afford indoor plumbing? Please provide a definition of 'dumping' as you understand it.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Evolving]
    #2279508 - 01/27/04 11:50 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

u are all over the place on this. In one post, you mention workers in Michigan, (" think of the flint, MI example from rodger and me.") then when I bring up U.S. tariffs on imported goods, you said, "I'm not talking about us protection." 




no shite. ethics in trade is a big shit can of problems, my contention isn't that "free" "fair" protectionist" or "nationalist" trade policy is ethical, it's that none of these positions are unchallenged by serious problems/ counters.  as such, I've been noting problems of self interest, communal interest, and global interest.  I understand that someone with "the answer" as you and mushmaster apparently claim to would have problems understanding this kind of approach.

Quote:

1) Do the poor people in developing countries benefit by paying higher prices and having the difference go to support a bigger and more intrusive government or to lining the pockets of the wealthy business men with political connections?





they wouldn't have to pay more if the west was required to use it's own labor pool, as they could still pay comparatively low wages, thereby standing a competitive chance (to sell cheap stuff).  this would of course not help the workers directly, but the american poor benefit greatly by sharing citizenship with weathly business men- it's safe to assume that as countries develop exporting bases other industry would grow around such a base, like service. how are regulated economies "intrusive" and to whom are they "intrusive"? 

Quote:

Is there a long term benefit to having inefficient industries protected so they can continue to be inefficient? 




yes, a lack of homeless poor people.  it's inefficient to pay more for american labor, but perhaps if forced to industry would in turn be forced to be massively more innovative than other countries, as was the case in the 1950's. 

Quote:

Do the poor people in developing countries benefit by having less disposable income due to protectionist tariffs?





perhaps not in the short term, but you've failed to mention why building exporting bases are so unimportant for poor countries to become unpoor.  do they just need to be really good shoppers, is that it?

Quote:

Do you like government favoring big business and protecting it from start up companies who can deliver products at lower prices and of possibly higher quality?





of course not.  that's why "intrusive" doesn't mean anything.  government could just as easily work as a check on big business (as was the general trend before incorporation).

Quote:

If you were up on things, you would realize that the U.S. is the engine of growth for developing countries by it's purchase of goods from those countries. Please provide a list of 'cheap goods' the U.S. dumps on developing foreign markets. What does the U.S. sell to these poor countries where people can't afford indoor plumbing? Please provide a definition of 'dumping' as you understand it. 




:nut:

yeah man, not being up on "things" is a good argument.  everyone who questions the ethical status of world trade must just not be "up on things". 

one example that I can think of off hand is food.  we sell a shit ton of grain to africa, and we take all their nuts.  the actual caloric exchange is vastly in our favor, but in monetary terms we sell way more than we buy.  this, of course, is because we subsidize the holy fuck out of our farms.  africa is a whole country of sun and people looking for work, but they still get cheaper grain from across the fucking ocean.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Anonymous

Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2280272 - 01/28/04 10:02 AM (20 years, 5 days ago)

perhaps you'd like to explain exactly how dumping cheap goods helps a country export its way out of poverty?

didn't think so. you must just "know" a lot about econ.


see if you can follow me here malachi...

let's say that there is a tariff in thailand against imported refrigerators. refrigerator manufacturers in thailand sell their refrigerators for the equivalent of $800. if there was free importation, thais could buy refrigerators from more efficient overseas competitors for only $500, so a $300 per refrigerator tariff has been enacted to protect thai refrigerator manufacturers. on the surface, this seems well and good. jobs in thailands refrigerator manufacturing are saved. people are working, machines are running, and refrigerators are being built, all thanks to the tariff.

but that is only on the surface. for every thai refrigerator bought in lieu of a foreign one, there is $300 less to spend on something else. for every extra $300 going to the refrigerator industry, $300 less is going to other industries (who then employ less people).

what's more, because imported refrigerators are bought with bahts, the foreign countries supplying the refrigerators must buy thai goods if they are to make any use of the money they recieve for them. this in turn further bolsters other industries in thailand.

as a result of the tariffs, there has been no net increase in employment. there is a decrease in both employment and production; things are being done inefficiently, and the inefficiency is even quantified. for every refrigerator produced in thailand, the equivalent of $300 is essentially wasted.

the only ones actually helped out by the tariffs are the execs of the thai refrigerator manufacturing firms, and at the expense of everyone else. the irony is that people like you don't even realize this, and swallow the lobbying of the manufacturing big wigs hook line and sinker, thinking that these measures are intended to help the working man. they aren't.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
    #2282133 - 01/28/04 10:17 PM (20 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
ethics in trade is a big shit can of problems,...



Bottom line is as you seem to be argueing is that it is ethical for you or government agents to initiate force in peaceful interactions between human beings. Merely because of your superior elitist postion of enlightenment in knowing what's best for those involved.

Quote:

Quote:

Evolving said: 1) Do the poor people in developing countries benefit by paying higher prices and having the difference go to support a bigger and more intrusive government or to lining the pockets of the wealthy business men with political connections?




Malachi evaded and rationalized:
they wouldn't have to pay more if the west was required to use it's own labor pool, as they could still pay comparatively low wages, thereby standing a competitive chance (to sell cheap stuff). this would of course not help the workers directly, but the american poor benefit greatly by sharing citizenship with weathly business men- it's safe to assume that as countries develop exporting bases other industry would grow around such a base, like service....



Terribly transparent dodge and totally unfounded assumptions. Try a direct answer.

Quote:

Malachi said:
how are regulated economies "intrusive" and to whom are they "intrusive"?



Pretty apparent to those of us who can think. If the government intrudes upon peaceful trade between people with taxes (tariffs) designed to alter behavior, this is intrusive, GET IT?

Quote:

Quote:

Evolving said: Is there a long term benefit to having inefficient industries protected so they can continue to be inefficient?



Malachi said:
yes, a lack of homeless poor people. it's inefficient to pay more for american labor, but perhaps if forced to industry would in turn be forced to be massively more innovative than other countries, as was the case in the 1950's.



More unfounded assertions that ignore unintended consequences of government action in the peaceful activities of private individuals. Try again.

Quote:

Quote:

Evolving said: Do the poor people in developing countries benefit by having less disposable income due to protectionist tariffs?




Malachi said:
perhaps not in the short term



A more accurate and less evasive answer is, "No, they don't benefit, they are harmed by tariffs."


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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