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Anonymous
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
#2278420 - 01/27/04 05:18 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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well, it's not quite so bad, seeing as how their is welfare in maine. the third world isn't so fortunate. yes, they are fortunate indeed. however, i've also been to florida, and let me tell you.. the unemployed there are not as fortunate. i've seen many a good man put out of work on account of free trade down there. i knew whole communities of maple tappers that had to find new lines of work, all because they couldn't compete with maple syrup shipped down from maine. i tell ya... it's a damn shame.
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Evolving
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
#2278426 - 01/27/04 05:19 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Malachi said:
Quote:
mushmaster said: i was all about free trade until i moved up to maine and saw what the florida orange crop was doing to the orange farmers up there. i mean... it's hard enough to grow orange trees up there, and ontop of that, they have to deal with competition from florida. shit ain't right. i see alot of ex-orange farmers up in maine... thrown out of work cause of that damn free trade. bah!
well, it's not quite so bad, seeing as how their is welfare in maine. the third world isn't so fortunate.
You must be wearin' a hat or something, 'cause that went RIGHT over your head and you didn't even notice.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Malachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Evolving]
#2278428 - 01/27/04 05:20 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Evolving said: The most ethical trade is to allow to parties who mutually agree without the use of force or threat of force on exchanging goods, services or currency to do so.
even when the result is vastly disproportionate quality of life? sure, it seems that such a utilitarian position is good "in the long run" since the more efficient producers thrive, but if that means a regional depression, shouldn't some kind of safeguard at least ensure the lack of little girl prostitutes?
or in a less entreme case, think of the flint, MI example from rodger and me. wouldn't it be more ethical/ socially responsible to help those workers segue into a new line of work? must the ramifications of markets be left unchecked? adam smith of the "invisible hand" presupposed full education, as such, people wouldn't have to turn tricks to eat under nearly any circumstance.
-------------------- The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side. - Paul Tillich
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Le_Canard
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
#2278434 - 01/27/04 05:22 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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Er...maybe I'm missing something here, but explain to me how free trade and child prostitution are linked?
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Evolving
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
#2278490 - 01/27/04 05:34 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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Malachi said: even when the result is vastly disproportionate quality of life?
How's that? Who benefits from U.S. tariffs on textiles, the more affluent U.S. producers or the third world producers trying to raise their standards of living? Do the consumers benefit by paying higher prices and having the difference go to support a bigger and more intrusive government, and having inefficient industries protected so they can continue to be inefficient? Do you like government favoring big business and protecting it from start up companies who can deliver products at lower prices and of possibly higher quality?
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Malachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
#2278573 - 01/27/04 05:53 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushmaster said: well, it's not quite so bad, seeing as how their is welfare in maine. the third world isn't so fortunate.
yes, they are fortunate indeed. however, i've also been to florida, and let me tell you.. the unemployed there are not as fortunate. i've seen many a good man put out of work on account of free trade down there. i knew whole communities of maple tappers that had to find new lines of work, all because they couldn't compete with maple syrup shipped down from maine. i tell ya... it's a damn shame.
these are examples of free trade acting without severe human consequence. but keep avoiding my point, it only makes you intellectually dishonest.
-------------------- The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side. - Paul Tillich
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Anonymous
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
#2278590 - 01/27/04 05:57 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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these are examples of free trade acting without severe human consequence. but keep avoiding my point, it only makes you intellectually dishonest.
they are examples of the stupidity of restrictions on free exchange. if we applied the same ideas to every locale, do you know what sort of shape we'd be in? trying to protect steel workers in southern california and computer manufacturers in pittsburg... fishermen in kansas and corn farmers in boston...
it's absurd. it may help some people in the short term (kansas fishermen, socal steel makers), but only at a cost to others, and the overall affect on everyone is a net decrease in efficiency, employment, and production.
trade is good.
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Malachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
#2278595 - 01/27/04 05:59 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushmaster said:
trading with us is not the cause of the poverty you see there. tariffs provide short-term benefit to some at the expense of others, and the overall effect is negative.
trade is good. trade is specialization. it is efficiency.
unrestricted trade certainly doesn't help. if asian countries traded in closed markets (as they did for all of history before the advent of tech to make global trade possible) they might not have as many durable goods, but they also wouldn't have a gigantic flesh trade marketed towards westerners.
so, yes, flesh trading is a result of unrestricted trade, in the most literal sense. the "short term benefits" of protectionism would seem a tad bit more important to the little girls who are freely trading, but you apparently care only about the overall bottom line.
-------------------- The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side. - Paul Tillich
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Evolving
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
#2278597 - 01/27/04 05:59 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Malachi said:
Quote:
mushmaster said: yes, they are fortunate indeed. however, i've also been to florida, and let me tell you.. the unemployed there are not as fortunate. i've seen many a good man put out of work on account of free trade down there. i knew whole communities of maple tappers that had to find new lines of work, all because they couldn't compete with maple syrup shipped down from maine. i tell ya... it's a damn shame.
these are examples of free trade acting without severe human consequence. but keep avoiding my point, it only makes you intellectually dishonest.
No these are examples of sarcasm being used to make a point. It must be a REALLY big and thick hat for you not to feel all these things flying over your head. Are you wearing some sort of ear plugs too, so you don't hear the 'whoosh?'
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Malachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Evolving]
#2278600 - 01/27/04 06:00 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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Evolving said: You must be wearin' a hat or something, 'cause that went RIGHT over your head and you didn't even notice.
no, it just wasn't funny, so I took it at face value to make my point.
-------------------- The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side. - Paul Tillich
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Evolving
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
#2278628 - 01/27/04 06:07 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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Anonymous
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
#2278653 - 01/27/04 06:13 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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things like child prostitution, slavery, etc. are a totally different thing. these are not "free trade". the childwhoring is relevant only insofar as it comes as the result of poverty. the question is... does free trade cause this poverty? are they poorer as a nation for trading with us? no, they aren't. they're wealthier.
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Malachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Evolving]
#2278658 - 01/27/04 06:14 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Evolving said:
Quote:
Malachi said: even when the result is vastly disproportionate quality of life?
How's that? Who benefits from U.S. tariffs on textiles, the more affluent U.S. producers or the third world producers trying to raise their standards of living? Do the consumers benefit by paying higher prices and having the difference go to support a bigger and more intrusive government, and having inefficient industries protected so they can continue to be inefficient? Do you like government favoring big business and protecting it from start up companies who can deliver products at lower prices and of possibly higher quality?
I'm not talking about us protection (in this case, however, there are arguements for it) but protection of third world markets. the only way (as I understand it) for a poverty struck area to raise standards of living is to export their way out of poverty. the most common ethical appeal to this effect is that the west ought to ease it up a bit, stop flooding the third world with goods, allowing their own markets to make some money.
-------------------- The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side. - Paul Tillich
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Anonymous
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
#2278669 - 01/27/04 06:16 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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the most common ethical appeal to this effect is that the west ought to ease it up a bit, stop flooding the third world with goods, allowing their own markets to make some money.
i'd use the word "nonsensical".
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Malachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Le_Canard]
#2278673 - 01/27/04 06:18 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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ToiletDuk said: Er...maybe I'm missing something here, but explain to me how free trade and child prostitution are linked?
free trade allows rich countries to sell stuff to the poor countries; to export more than import. this effectively keeps the third world in poverty, leading them to persue the only markets available to them: sex trade, drugs, fighting wars, etc. not growing food or making products. of course, american companies make use of cheap ass third world labor, but this does nothing for their ability to sustainably raise their standard of living, as they aren't actually exporting the products they make: america is.
-------------------- The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side. - Paul Tillich
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Malachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
#2278699 - 01/27/04 06:27 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushmaster said:
they are examples of the stupidity of restrictions on free exchange. if we applied the same ideas to every locale, do you know what sort of shape we'd be in? trying to protect steel workers in southern california and computer manufacturers in pittsburg... fishermen in kansas and corn farmers in boston...
it's absurd. it may help some people in the short term (kansas fishermen, socal steel makers), but only at a cost to others, and the overall affect on everyone is a net decrease in efficiency, employment, and production.
trade is good.
yes, I understand the stock argument for free trade. you parrot it very well. what distinguishes my examples from yours is that people in the third world don't have social protection programs, so they have to whore themselves out/ grow drugs for the west/ kill each other. in america this isn't a problem, so yeah, there's no real reason for state to state protection. oranges grow good in florida and maple sryup is abundant in maine.
-however-
I can also see how national protectionism may become more and more necessary to keep enough americans employed to maintain an economic base. other countries have way cheaper labor, and as if that wasn't problem enough, our own corporations can make use of said cheap labor, leaving americans out of jobs. as I said before, we can't all be "service industy" workers, nor have any examples of "secondary industries" with enough base been presented.
-------------------- The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side. - Paul Tillich
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Malachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Evolving]
#2278709 - 01/27/04 06:30 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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Evolving said: No these are examples of sarcasm being used to make a point. It must be a REALLY big and thick hat for you not to feel all these things flying over your head. Are you wearing some sort of ear plugs too, so you don't hear the 'whoosh?'
again, I too watch TV, and am therefore quite informed as to the stock argument for free trade. that you actually think that this "point" is of such depth that anyone would "miss" it is beyond lame.
-------------------- The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side. - Paul Tillich
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Anonymous
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: Malachi]
#2278717 - 01/27/04 06:32 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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free trade allows rich countries to sell stuff to the poor countries yep. conversely, it allows the poor countries to buy stuff from the rich ones. do not forget that buying and selling are two sides of the same coin. there really is no difference. when you buy something, you are also selling something. when you sell something, you are also buying something. when thailand buys harley davidson motorcycles, it buys them in thai bahts. if we are to make any use of these bahts, we need to purchase things from thailand... lightbulbs perhaps. the thais produce that which they have a comparitive advantage in and we build that which we have a comparitive advantage producing. it doesn't make sense for us to make lightbulbs when the thais can make them cheaper, or for them to make motorcycles when we can make them cheaper. hey wait a minute... i thought in the beginning of this thread you said that the US was becoming more and more service oriented and that all the manufacturing and farming jobs would be overseas. this effectively keeps the third world in poverty, leading them to persue the only markets available to them: sex trade, drugs, fighting wars, etc. that doesn't logically follow. dumping cheap goods on a nation hardly impoverishes them.
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Malachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
#2278734 - 01/27/04 06:42 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushmaster said: things like child prostitution, slavery, etc. are a totally different thing. these are not "free trade". the childwhoring is relevant only insofar as it comes as the result of poverty. the question is... does free trade cause this poverty? are they poorer as a nation for trading with us? no, they aren't. they're wealthier.
no, they're not, we are. they get to buy cheaper stuff, but they don't build an economic base of industry - except for sex/drugs/killing. they buy our shit cause they are so poor that they can't plan for the future- they need food NOW, and are forced to do whatever they need to to get it.
-------------------- The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side. - Paul Tillich
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Malachi
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Re: free, fair, protectionist, nationalist trade. [Re: ]
#2278750 - 01/27/04 06:51 PM (20 years, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushmaster said: free trade allows rich countries to sell stuff to the poor countries
yep. conversely, it allows the poor countries to buy stuff from the rich ones. do not forget that buying and selling are two sides of the same coin. there really is no difference. when you buy something, you are also selling something. when you sell something, you are also buying something.
when thailand buys harley davidson motorcycles, it buys them in thai bahts. if we are to make any use of these bahts, we need to purchase things from thailand... lightbulbs perhaps. the thais produce that which they have a comparitive advantage in and we build that which we have a comparitive advantage producing. it doesn't make sense for us to make lightbulbs when the thais can make them cheaper, or for them to make motorcycles when we can make them cheaper.
hey wait a minute... i thought in the beginning of this thread you said that the US was becoming more and more service oriented and that all the manufacturing and farming jobs would be overseas. 
this effectively keeps the third world in poverty, leading them to persue the only markets available to them: sex trade, drugs, fighting wars, etc.
that doesn't logically follow. dumping cheap goods on a nation hardly impoverishes them.
see, they can't compete with the west in anything but offering cheap labor and avoiding ethical conflicts (environment, sex laws, drug laws, etc). so that's what they do. if there were (hypothetically) lightbulb manufacturing in thailand, they'd be owned by western companies, not by the people of those regions.
-------------------- The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side. - Paul Tillich
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