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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: Evolving]
    #2272576 - 01/25/04 09:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Anyway, it's silly to blame an inanimate object for the actions of those that use it.



I agree with this statement, but I think it's a matter of how much firepower you want to make available to potentially dangerous people. Surely no one would propose that nuclear weapons be made available to the general public. For the record, I am generally against most gun control measures. However, this is mainly because, as you said, it would be easier to get them on the black market. If there was an effective way to keep dangerous firearms out of the hands of criminals, I think I would support it.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2272585 - 01/25/04 09:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Seeing as governments are the biggest mass murderers in history, perhaps we should start by removing guns (and other weapons) from the hands of government agents.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: Evolving]
    #2272597 - 01/25/04 09:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Perhaps, but I can't see that being very good for controlling other violent criminals.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 2,927
Loc: Canada West
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2272723 - 01/25/04 10:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

DING!

Do you know how disproportionate the difference between hand gun deaths in Canada and hand gun deaths in the police states of amerika is?

And it's not availability, either. In Sweden, it is the law for every adult male to own a gun. When the government declares war, all of these citizens are required to take their guns and fight. Do you have ANY idea how disproportionate the difference between hand gun deaths in Sweden and hand gun deaths in the US is every year?

Americans are IN:crazy:SANE. Their is no way to fix that country. It needs to be cleansed.


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We have to answer our own prayers


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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: Evolving]
    #2272734 - 01/25/04 10:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Generally, guns are just as hard to get to as knives in my experience, so I don't think that matters. Baseball bats work real well, you don't have to get as close as you do with a knife.




Well,  I'll have to take your word for it, as you seem to have experience with this.  :wink: :grin:

Personally, I can't stand to hear the crunch of a bug being squashed under my shoe, so I couldn't imagine using a bat on a human being. 

I was cleaning a house one time, which is what I used to do when going through college, and a guy shot himself in the chest, while in the kitchen, while I was vacuuming.  (He could have had the decency to shoot himself before I cleaned the kitchen!)

I couldn't go near him.  I grabbed the phone and ran outside and dialed 911. 

I hate blood.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: Evolving]
    #2273637 - 01/26/04 04:40 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
The pharmaceutical companies are working on a solution right now.


:lol:


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2273661 - 01/26/04 05:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Generally, guns are just as hard to get to as knives in my experience, so I don't think that matters.




maybe youre in texas or something, but everyone in my house is about 20 feet from a 10 inch sharp chef's knife and i don't know if any would know where to get a gun without having to go and buy one first. and the majority of households don't have a gun while the majority of households surely own kitchen knives.

for the record, i appear to be in the minority on this particular thread in that i am definately pro-gun reform.

for one, clearly there is such a large discrepency in gun homicides between countries that own guns and those that don't that it only be attributed to correlation.

second, like was said earlier, guns just make it too easy and impersonal to kill someone in the rush of the moment. sure people are murdered in other ways, but not as often and not with as much ease. plus it would be harder to get away if you had blood all over you from using a baseball bat or if someone saw your license plate after you drove over them.

as for the argument for protecting against the government, yeesh. for one, how many industrialized nations' governments have suddenly taken their citizens hostage because they didnt have any guns? the communist revolutions were citizens taking over the govt, not vice-versa. and this law was made in the day when raw army population numbers really mattered (such as north v. south in civil war) but nowadays, i dont care how many people with handguns you have, it wont repel smart-bombs and the other massive weapons that armies have on hand these days.

yes, outlaws will have guns more than citizens, but how often are they really used against criminals nowadays? if a guy mugs you in the street, do you whip around and shoot him? and if he comes into a bank, does the teller whip out a gun on him? no, we deal with these situations pacifically and look to the police to catch them and recover losses with insurance. thats how we deal with it now, and thats how we would deal with it if guns were outlawed (just like other nations do already).

as for 'guns dont kill people, people kill people' youre right, but they certainly make it a lot easier.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: Tao]
    #2274128 - 01/26/04 10:38 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"second, like was said earlier, guns just make it too easy and impersonal to kill someone in the rush of the moment. sure people are murdered in other ways, but not as often and not with as much ease. plus it would be harder to get away if you had blood all over you from using a baseball bat or if someone saw your license plate after you drove over them."


That's exactly my point, no honor at all. A lot people can't imagine beating someone over the head with a bat now would they??? no a trigger is too easy.

The prevention of death wasn't really my concern in the first place. it is just that people around here in california just love popping off on others. I've had friends whho have had their houses raided by other fools, because those guys had guns. oh and btw, guns are easy to get. my friend has a really neat mag-10, and of course it is stolen. all you need to do is trash that shit.

that's why I was like, is there a difference between hate with words and hate with a gun. I think there is, because hate with a gun is an increase potential in no communication. without this, things get misunderstood (as I have seen it happen before) and guess what. that little finger pulled that trigger.

sure people kill people, but guns sure do help don't they?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: Evolving]
    #2274134 - 01/26/04 10:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Old age kills people too.

Yeah, but young ones?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 5 months, 25 days
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: Swami]
    #2274142 - 01/26/04 10:49 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

>> Old age kills people too.
> Yeah, but young ones?

Sometimes. There is a disease (rare) that causes children to age at a very fast rate. By the time they are ten to twelve years old, their bodies look (and act) like that of an elderly person.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: kaiowas]
    #2274217 - 01/26/04 11:23 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

well, ya...
but with a couple spare clips for the ol' uzi, you could clear a streetcorner (or a school playground) of living beings in less than a minute...
i doubt that one could do that with a brace of throwing knives...
(knives are quiet, can be quite deadly, and are re-usable... but tend to require the one doing the killing to get fairly close to the target (especially if you want to get your knife back after "doing the job")...)
you just don't hear much about "drive-by" stabbings, for some reason...
go figure...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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Anonymous

Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2274353 - 01/26/04 12:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

And it's not availability, either. In Sweden, it is the law for every adult male to own a gun. When the government declares war, all of these citizens are required to take their guns and fight. Do you have ANY idea how disproportionate the difference between hand gun deaths in Sweden and hand gun deaths in the US is every year?

i believe you are thinking about switzerland.

most violent crimes in the US are commited by repeat offenders, and most do not involve a firearm. of those that do, only a fraction are commited with legally-owned guns. meanwhile, legal guns in the hands of private citizens are used defensively more than a million times a year in the US. legal gun ownership helps prevent far more crime than it helps cause. making it illegal to own guns will ensure that there is a thriving black market for them, making guns unavailable for most people to use for defensive purposes, and perhaps make them even more available to criminals. nevermind that disarming the populace renders it entirely subordinate to the whims and will of the state.

i've found that the reasoning of hardcore anti-gunners generally runs something like this:

1. guns hurt people.
2. therefore, they are bad.
3. therefore, we should ban them.

this combined with a gross ignorance of the actual facts of the situation makes the argument uncannily similar to another sort of prohibition i'm sure we are all familiar with.


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OfflineViveka
refutation bias
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Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: kaiowas]
    #2274379 - 01/26/04 12:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

So what's the solution then? Remove another freedom from the citizens of America? The point is a very simple one. If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Any worthwhile liberty comes with a price. If ganbangers die because guns exist in society, well that is one cost of having that freedom. And if guns were prohibited, honest citizens would not posess them, only criminals would. Let's be realistic about the issue shall we. Sure, guns make it easier to kill. Sure, humanity might be better off without them. But the fact is, guns exist, they always will exist, and wether they are outlawed or not, they will continue to be produced and distributed on black markets. So why remove another freedom from the populace??


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: Viveka]
    #2274544 - 01/26/04 01:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

EvilEye? said:
Let's be realistic about the issue shall we. Sure, guns make it easier to kill. Sure, humanity might be better off without them. But the fact is, guns exist, they always will exist, and wether they are outlawed or not, they will continue to be produced and distributed on black markets. So why remove another freedom from the populace??



My wife's ex-boyfriend (now deceased) was a Dutch Army pilot who made extra money by smuggling guns into The Netherlands . The Dutch of course have much more stringent gun laws than the U.S., this made it a very profitable enterprise for him. When anything is made illegal, those that are law abiding and peaceful will get out of the business of providing it, those who have no reservations about breaking the law and using violence will have been given another avenue to enrich themselves. The war on (some) drugs should provide ample lessons to those who are willing to learn.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineViveka
refutation bias
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Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: Evolving]
    #2274747 - 01/26/04 03:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly.


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: Viveka]
    #2274759 - 01/26/04 03:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I think they should just take guns away from everyone in amerika. Obviously, we are too stupid as a country to use them without killing each other. What... US had like 26,000 gun deaths last year, while UK had 12? I think the government likes it. Why else would everything on TV be violent in some form?

Just another form of "population control" in their eyes. Like Aids. and war.


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Anonymous

Re: guns don't kill people... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2275947 - 01/26/04 11:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)


I think they should just take guns away from everyone in amerika.


who are they, and why should we agree to let them try to be the only ones with the guns?

Obviously, we are too stupid as a country to use them without killing each other.

there's something like 44 million registered gun owners in america, and they use their guns in defense on the order of a million and a half times a year. the ones out murdering people are mostly people who aren't supposed to have guns in the first place.

What... US had like 26,000 gun deaths last year

well over half of which were suicides.

while UK had 12?

while we're doing comparisons, we might want to examine switzerland or maybe israel. these countries are armed to the teeth but have extremely low violent crime rates. maybe we should consider how the murder rate amongst japanese citizens, who have much more restricted access to firearms than americans, is actually a good deal higher than the rate of murders commited by japanese living in the US. there are other factors than the legal availability of guns. guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens do more good than harm.

Just another form of "population control" in their eyes. Like Aids. and war.

there were about 2.5 million deaths in the US in 2003. at 26,000, gun deaths made up .0104% of that. if we count only homocides, the rate is less than a 20th of a percentage point... something around 4.5 per every 100,000 deaths.


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