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OfflineFrog
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: nubious]
    #2271757 - 01/25/04 01:47 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

It's okay, nubious.  I already talked to my guru about it.  He told me that you specifically started this thread to provoke me into responding so that you could attack me. 

I'm not offended, and I'm not insecure.  But ("Being proud is ok, just try not to choke") you just might be an asshole!  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: Frog]
    #2271768 - 01/25/04 01:50 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Whoa, I think your Guru is right, actually. :oogle:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflinePed
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: nubious]
    #2271795 - 01/25/04 01:58 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

>> but the second I mentioned your behaviour you kicked into defense mode, not admitting that MAYBE, just maybe, showing your legs off to an online community is a little inapproriate.

Your suggestion, then, is that her prompt and defensive reaction indicates the motives behind her avatar and the underlying insecurity that drives a person to exhibit themselves for the approval of others.

That kind of logic is perfectly consistent, but becomes irrational when it is thrust onto others as an evaluation. You would not approach an acquaintance of yours in a shopping mall and present the suggestion that they are being indignant with their body because they are insecure with themselves. You'd not do such a thing because you would expect a fierce or unproductive response. Why would this be different at an online forum?

It is not fair to use members as examples in this way simply because it appears convenient.

The way that women portray themselves seems to be an issue complex enough for you that you felt the need to initiate a thread devoted to it's discussion. This serves as a probable indicator that many of the conclusions you've made about women and the motives behind their conduct are pervaded by your own views and conditioning on the matter.

Frog's legs being visible in her avatar is not an inherently inappropriate action. If it were an inherently inappropriate action, everyone would agree that it was so. The same would be true if it were assumed that it were an inherently delightful action. Everyone would agree that it was delightful. As we can observe in this thread, there are many differing views on the matter. Each of us have differing views on the avatar because we are each approaching it's appearance from differing mental dispositions.

Understanding this, it follows that rather than scrutinizing Frog's demeanor for insight into this issue, it would be more productive for you to examine your own self.

Very rarely do I give personal advice on this forum. It feels strange to use the words "you" and "your"! I apologize if I appeared invasive.


--------------------


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: Frog]
    #2273875 - 01/26/04 05:05 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
It's okay, nubious.  I already talked to my guru about it.  He told me that you specifically started this thread to provoke me into responding so that you could attack me. 

I'm not offended, and I'm not insecure.  But ("Being proud is ok, just try not to choke") you just might be an asshole!  :grin:




Ya know..  you've helped me realise something, and you can relate this back to your guru if you want...  They're right - in retrospect I did start this thread to provoke you, and I think I know why;  First, I must apologize..  I've had a rough week..  My girlfriend (whome I'm moving in with) left on Saturday to BC, 5 hours from here. I'm not going to get to see her for two months, and I'm pretty down about that..  we haven't been apart for more than a week in over 6 months :frown:. On top of that, my mom (43, 3 kids, doesn't have it all together, you remember...) called me on friday night (last night with gurlie) a complete wreck, with news that my great grandma passed away.  After listening to her cry for like 20 minutes, she suddenly turned it around saying she needed a favour - for me to tell my dad (divorced 10 years, quite miserable story actually..  involves many broken telephones) to tell maintenance enforcement that he had received some receipts regarding my little brothers daycare or some shit.. 

I'm bitter, and quite possibly feeling sorry for myself with my recent loss.  Even though it's temporary, (2 months), I have to prepare for a move which is going to completely change my life and I have to do it without my best friend.  I'm at a serious turning point, maybe even an early quarter-life-crisis? (Pisces, year of the Dog)  I'm going to move out with the girlfriend, who'm I love dearly, but am now faced with 2 months of seperation (from)...  I'm leaving a good job for an economy with not much to offer in my industry, but with several +'s balancing that issue (it's kind of a long story), leaving 2 brothers, a mother, other family, and 11 years worth of friends. It's something one puts some serious thought into. Especially when you've only been with the girl for 6 months!
There's something about this girl that just feels right. I don't know how else to explain it. I know, I know..  it's typical early-adulthood drama similar to an afterschool special or Degrassi High, but that kind of experience brings a lesson.
That lesson cannot be fully understood (on a spiritual level) other than by the person experiencing it, and as such, that person must ultimately confront that alone. When other factors play into the situation with timing antonymous of a fairy tale, things can get a little stressfull.
This all relates to you, Frog, in that I've lost something I'm both emotionally and primaly attached to.  I saw your legs, I was subconciously angered by the fact that I now have to play twister by myself, and I (once again mention subconciously) saw an opportunity to vent that anger.


I apologize, and I thank you for helping me confront this issue, which you quite truthfully have pointed out, has caused me to behaviour quite assholishly.


P.S.  Does your guru have MSN?  :biggrin:


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: nubious]
    #2273940 - 01/26/04 05:56 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

nubious said:

P.S.  Does your guru have MSN?  :biggrin:




Hey yea Froggy, I wanna have your Guru on speed-dial as well! :laugh: :wink:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: nubious]
    #2274138 - 01/26/04 08:47 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Not many people have the maturity to look at themselves and see what's going on underneath, or apologize for behaviors. You're pretty cool, nubious.

But I have to apologize, too. It was obvious something was going on for you, and instead of just letting it be your issue, I called you an asshole, and I apologize for that. For the last 24 hours, I've actually been thinking about editing that part out, but I'll leave it in and just apologize here.

I've also been thinking about the issue your raised, in a more honest way. Why was I provoked? If I'm so comfortable with my picture up there, why did I feel provoked by your attack?

Truth is, one day I just got an urge to put the first picture I had there, the one with me in the black slip thing. I was afraid people would think I was flaunting myself or whatever, and I'm usually kind of insecure about being attacked, but then I thought that this is the shroomery, and I decided "fuck it", just put it up, and see what happens. The guy in Texas had taken the picture the night before I was supposed to leave, a couple of months ago.

Well, no one said anything negative, it seemed to be okay, so I left it. Then, I posted the current picture in the Pub, on the thread where it said "post your pics here" or something like that. I posted that with a few of my kids. Skorpivo said if I posted this current pic as my avatar, I would win more arguments, so in fun again, I posted this pic as my avatar.

I talked to my guru about the pic. He said it is provocative. I said "so what?" He said people are going to be provoked into thinking that I think I'm hot. I said "so what?" again. He said it's other people's insecurities, and if I want to post pics of me, I should do so regardless of other's opinions.

Phluck touched on it in his thread, but why is it, when someone dresses in a certain way, they get criticized for thinking they're hot? Or whatever? I think MM said that he doesn't talk to women who overdress. Why not? Maybe it's a person who loves to dress like that and feels good dressing like that, but maybe she's also a good person inside?

I've been thinking of taking my pic down, but then I thought that if someone has a problem with my pic, that's their problem, right? I like my pic. So I should leave it up, right?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: Frog]
    #2274208 - 01/26/04 09:19 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

*Swami whistles while whipping up a nice bearnaise sauce*


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: Frog]
    #2274224 - 01/26/04 09:27 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

If you dont love yourself in a certain aspect, you won't love it in others.

It's often the propensity to see ourselves in the subject that causes us to exert negative emotion and dislikes towards the person. Because we see a part of ourselves that we WISH we could be but can't be because you're afraid of disproval. So then you invert your depression towards yourself which then becomes anger.

If you're open minded and non-judgmental to yourself, then you will also be to other people at least in all the areas and aspects that you extend the same courtesy to in yourself.

People's dislikes, and negative attitudes and opinions are REFLECTIONS from within themselves.

Wait what was I saying? Oh yea..nevermind.


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2274267 - 01/26/04 09:43 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Very well said, Skorpivo!

And if I'm insecure, I will respond by being defensive.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePed
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: Frog]
    #2274378 - 01/26/04 10:22 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

What a wonderful progression this thread has followed.  In the way we've seen here, many of our problems can be solved without harm.  :heart:  :thumbup:


--------------------


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: Frog]
    #2274832 - 01/26/04 01:55 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

I've been thinking of taking my pic down, but then I thought that if someone has a problem with my pic, that's their problem, right? I like my pic. So I should leave it up, right?




Fuck if people have a problem with your pic.. it's a 32 x 32 piece of digital art.. as long as it's not goatse I don't see why you should be concerned with how people view your self-representation - be it your own picture or not.

Thanks for the e-mail Froggie.. I'll drop him a line sometime.


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: nubious]
    #2274944 - 01/26/04 02:37 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

So are we done discussing girls who flaunt and idolize themselves???

:grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Anonymous

Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: Frog]
    #2275567 - 01/26/04 06:23 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Hot dang there's an lot of complaining going on!!


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: ]
    #2276646 - 01/27/04 03:08 AM (20 years, 5 days ago)

As stated above, this thread was never really about girls who flaunt themselves.. it was just a subconciouss outburts brought forth on the waves of negativity. I suppose we're done, unless anyone else has anything they'd like to add...


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: nubious]
    #2277274 - 01/27/04 10:29 AM (20 years, 5 days ago)

I dunno. I think it was a good topic. And it gave you insight into you and gave me insight into me.

But the issue itself...girls that dress in a sexy manner, or that do things like I did and post a picture of themselves showing their legs, things like that. Are girls who do that "insecure"?

It's interesting to me, but if it's to be dropped, so be it.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: Frog]
    #2277994 - 01/27/04 02:56 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

  I think Fireworks God's first post really does  say it all.  I'm going to say "I've known girls who flaunt themselves and have been charming and brilliant, and I've known girls who flaunt themselves and are twits.  Do girls idolize themselves?  Some maybe.  I know I idolize women

:loveeyes:"  anyways.  And admire how well everyone resolved their issues.  What a productive thread!


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


Edited by Panoramix (01/27/04 02:58 PM)


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: Frog]
    #2278789 - 01/27/04 07:11 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

I wish everyone would use their pictures as their avatars. I like seeing what people look like.

yea, that's me, 100% ape. btw, I'm single and looking for women who flaunt their hairy backs.


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InvisibleKeyannki
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: Ped]
    #2279364 - 01/27/04 10:48 PM (20 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
We judge others because we are incapable, or find tremendous aversion to judging ourselves.  Those of us who feel the need to demonstrate beauty, sex appeal or importance often have the view that they themselves are being continuously judged by others.  Such a view is dependent upon the mental disposition of the viewer.  If we have a habitually judgemental mind, we will gradually begin to assume that others are the same way, making assessments of us moment by moment.

This delusion becomes a form of paranoia that manifests in a number of ways.  It can be a significant shyness, a deeply cynical or confrontational attitude toward others, an excessive exuberance toward others, or a showy demeanor.

But we should be careful not to categorize anyone this way.  An obviously showy attitude or alluring dress is equally likely to arise from a hunger for attention, or ego-validation.  Ego-validation might be sought because the individual was blessed at birth with a weakened ego that is not as powerful at asserting itself over the individual.  Such beings are closer to Buddhahood than we, and should be considered our precious teachers!    :grin:  :heart:




they'll either outgrow this invested self-image or not at all.  natural to do what they do.  without proper guidance, they wouldn't know any better that what they are doing is about not empowering themselves. even with proper guidance, some still won't understand it.  its too much mental agility for them.  I know some girls like that.  I had to break down my language to simplistic form so she could grasp some of the psychology.  I had my limits. Explaining successfully complex psychology to a girl who thinks in hello kitty or likes doing "booty" calls just doesn't happen.

hehe

btw - u meen ego iz self-governing will-POWAAAAA! Git it right misterrr PED-man.


:smirk:


Edited by Keyannki (01/27/04 10:52 PM)


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: Keyannki]
    #2279390 - 01/27/04 10:57 PM (20 years, 4 days ago)

Thanks for highlighting that excerpt, keyannki.

Ped, you said:

Quote:

But we should be careful not to categorize anyone this way. An obviously showy attitude or alluring dress is equally likely to arise from a hunger for attention, or ego-validation. Ego-validation might be sought because the individual was blessed at birth with a weakened ego that is not as powerful at asserting itself over the individual. Such beings are closer to Buddhahood than we, and should be considered our precious teachers!




It would seem like one who has a weakened ego would not be a good teacher. I am probably not understanding what you mean by "weakened ego". A strong ego would, to me, mean that one is strong enough in themselves to rise above attacks without feeling the need to respond in kind, and to not need validation, therefore not needing to dress in any way, or act in any way, to seek the approval of others.


What do you mean? What is a "weakened ego" and how is it a "good teacher"?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePed
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Re: Do girls flaunt and idolize themselves? [Re: Frog]
    #2279516 - 01/27/04 11:53 PM (20 years, 4 days ago)

Thank you for your question. This point does need some clarification.

By "ego", I simply mean the sense of a unique and seperate self.

The strength to rise above personal transgression is a sort of divine confidence and can actually be attributed to a very softened ego. It requires a certain degree of selflessness to transcend the impulse to respond angrily when someone insults us. Many people can be born with such a soft ego, but without proper wisdom can find themselves engaging in harmful self-indulgence and attention seeking. A soft ego is threatening to the continuity of our experience, because we believe habitually that our experience is filled with boundries and distinctions. A soft ego is much more conducive to the experience of interconnectedness. If we have a soft-ego but are continuously informed by our experiences that all things are rigid and seperate, we will have an uncomfortable existence. Sometimes I speculate that this may be why people like Beethoven and John F. Nash have lead such tragic lives.

As human beings, part of our experience is the sense of an independent and totally seperate "self" or "ego" experiencing the world as though the objects in it were "waiting" for us to encounter them. The stronger this sense of seperate-self, the stronger and more spontaneously we grasp on to it as real, and the more divided our world appears to be. In Buddhism, this is called "self-grasping." If we grasp at our self-sense as being totally detached -- and all living beings do -- we develop as consequence another habit called "self-cherishing." Self-cherishing is when we assign priority to ourselves over that of others. If we have strong self-cherishing, we will respond violently when we someone insulting appears to us. Self-cherising is a deluded pride, and is the direct opponent of the gracefullness that you cited as an option in situations in which somebody has offended us.

In this context, the ability to remain peaceful when somebody has harmed us is an example of a "weakened" ego. "Weakened" was a poor choice of words on my part. A better choice would have been "softened." As you implied, we can discover that a great deal of inner stregnth can be found through softening the ego in conjunction with wisdom. If naturally inclined, such a person can serve as an excellent example of the way to inner peace, so long as we are able to relate to them in that way. If we are able, then they can be considered our teacher.


--------------------


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Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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