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InvisibleTrueBrode
Stranger

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 287
Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria
    #2265356 - 01/23/04 11:59 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)



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Invisibledaussaulit
Forgetful

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,894
Loc: Earth
Re: Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2266558 - 01/23/04 07:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

This admin is too trigger happy.


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
addict
Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 470
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria [Re: daussaulit]
    #2266819 - 01/23/04 09:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

daussaulit said:
This admin is too trigger happy.




Geez, first the neocons make a great man like Saddam out to be a bad guy, now people that suicide bomb innocent people are bad guys! What is wrong with the Bush administration?

I can't wait itll we get a democrat in office so we can spend all of our money protecting the spotted owls and such, and not worry about such realities as terrorism.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2266980 - 01/23/04 11:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Once again, this becomes necessary...

Why do they shake this 'evil dictator's hand, and chop off the hand of another evil dictator?

Could it be 'evil dictator' is an excuse for imperialism? Iraq is worse off now than it was under Saddam, and the USA helped to install Saddam, and supported him.

Meet Islam Karminov






For those not in the know, that's good 'ol Islam Karminov, the President of Uzbekistan, best known for his love of the smell of boiled human flesh in the morning:


quote:
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From "US Looks Away as New Ally Tortures Islamists" by Nick Paton Walsh, Guardian (London), 26 May 2003:

Independent human rights groups estimate that there are more than 600 politically motivated arrests a year in Uzbekistan, and 6,500 political prisoners, some tortured to death. According to a forensic report commissioned by the British embassy, in August two prisoners were even boiled to death.

The US condemned this repression for many years. But since September 11 rewrote America's strategic interests in central Asia, the government of President Islam Karimov has become Washington's new best friend in the region.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




quote:
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From Amnesty International's 2003 report on Uzbekistan:

The bodies of Muzafar Avazov, a 35-year-old father of four, and Khusniddin Alimov, aged 34, were brought from Jaslyk prison in the Northern Karaklapakstan region to their families in Tashkent on 8 August. Muzafar Avazov was reportedly tortured to death; an eyewitness said the body showed signs of burns on the legs, buttocks, lower back and arms. Reportedly, there was a large wound on the back of the head, bruises on the forehead, and the hands had no fingernails. The authorities reportedly restricted viewing of Khusniddin Alimov's body.
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quote:
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From "EU Statement on Torture in Uzbekistan" by the European Union, 21 Nov 2002:

The EU drew attention on 5 September to the violent deaths in Jaslyk prison of two prisoners, Mr. Muzaffar Avazov and Mr Khusniddin Alimov, allegedly as a result of torture, and recalled the obligations of Uzbekistan in accordance with the UN Convention against Torture, to which it is a party. The EU has been alarmed to receive reports that a third prisoner, Numan Zafarov, may have died in the same incident as Avazov and Alimov.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Amnesty International's 2000 report on Uzbekistan:

The five members of Hizb-ut-Tahrir were reportedly tortured in order to force them to "confess". The methods included near-suffocation with a plastic bag, being hung upside down, having needles stuck under finger- and toe-nails, having their hands and feet burned and having electric shocks administered via a device fitted to the head ("electric cap").
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From "Uzbekistan Torture" by Voice of America, 6 Dec 2002:

A senior U-N official visiting the Central Asian country of Uzbekistan has accused the Uzbek government of widespread torture. V-O-A's Rebecca Santana has more from Moscow.

TEXT: The top United Nations official on torture, Theo van Boven, said Friday during a trip to Uzbekistan that the government regularly uses torture against political opponents.

Mr. Van Boven is wrapping up a two-week visit to Uzbekistan during which he talked with dozens of people who said they had been tortured by the police or the secret services.

During a press conference Friday, Mr. Van Boven said torture is "not just incidental but has a nature of being systemic in this country."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From "Uzbekistan: Torture Death in Prison" by Human Rights Watch, 3 May 2003:

Another Uzbek prisoner was tortured to death, contradicting U.S. claims that Uzbekistan is making progress on human rights, Human Rights Watch said today.

“Another prisoner tortured to death in Uzbekistan is not progress—it is more of the same,” said Elizabeth Andersen, executive director of the Europe and Central Asia Division of Human Rights Watch. “This is the tenth torture-related death in custody we’ve documented in the past year and a half. The State Department’s claims of human rights progress simply do not reflect reality.”

Family members who helped to wash Gafarov’s body told Human Rights Watch that they observed a large wound to his head that appeared to have been caused by a sharp object. There was also bruising to the back of his head. Gafarov’s rib cage, chest and throat were also bruised, and his hands were scratched.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From "New Death from Torture in Uzbekistan" by Human Rights Watch, 21 May 2003:

The National Security Service detained Orif Ershanov in Karshi, a city in southern Uzbekistan, on suspicion of belonging to the banned Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir (Party of Liberation). He died in custody on May 15.

Witnesses who saw the body told Human Rights Watch that it had heavy bruising to the arms, shoulders, upper chest, legs and soles of the feet. There were open wounds to one arm and his back. Several ribs were broken. Photographs obtained by Human Rights Watch confirmed these injuries. Witnesses also reported that there were indications that objects such as needles had been forced under the fingernails.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





http://www.thememoryhole.org/pol/us-and-uz.htm

Wow, what a swell guy! Who wouldn't want to shake his (bloodsoaked) hand?

So, rightwing, you can pretty much guess where this is going..... What gives? It's not ok when Saddam does it, but somehow Karminov's torture of his own people is somewhat more palatable?

Or maybe it's the fact that Saddam was really only our enemy when he started messing around with our Kuwaiti oil supply and whatever convenient purpose he served to advance the PNAC agenda post 9/11.

And what of Karminov? Atrocities overlooked for want of a great strategic foothold in the region? Or maybe it has something to do with the enormous amount of natural gas Uzbekistan just happens to be sitting on?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Uzbekistan is the eighth-largest producer of natural gas in the world, but lacks the ability to export most of it. Uzbekistan currently serves as a crucial link in the gas transport chain linking Turkmenistan's enormous gas deposits with Russia.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



http://www.worldpress.org/specials/.../uzbekistan.htm

Well, rightwing, I'd really like an answer to this obvious hypocrisy! What are we here on the left supposed to believe?


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 29,770
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 2 hours, 55 minutes
Re: Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2267749 - 01/24/04 08:58 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Could it be 'evil dictator' is an excuse for imperialism?




No. We care about the Iraqi people. Really, we do.

Good post CH.




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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,791
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria [Re: Learyfan]
    #2267754 - 01/24/04 09:02 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I have a question about that picture.

There are three quotes from republicans. Why none from democrats saying the same type of things?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 29,770
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Re: Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2267794 - 01/24/04 09:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Because the Bush party are in power and the Democrats are not(even though they supported it).

Democrats and Republicans are both right wing to me anyway.





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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,791
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria [Re: Learyfan]
    #2267796 - 01/24/04 09:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So complete accuracy isn't important?

Edit: I mean after all, if they are both the same to you... shouldn't both be represented?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (01/24/04 09:57 AM)


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 29,770
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Re: Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2267814 - 01/24/04 10:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It's not inaccurate to not talk about the Democrats support of the war. Who gives a shit about the Democrats? They aren't running the country and won't be until 2008.






--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: BLC - I Don't Wanna Go



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InvisibleTrueBrode
Stranger

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 287
Re: Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2268185 - 01/24/04 02:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So you're absolutely fine with your military industrial complex playing chess behind your back, and behind the back of your countrymen.

I didn't hear this in Bush's SU speach: "We want to invade Syria next. They're pretty weak, we think we can tke them easily and add on another country to our socialist, debt ridden NWO, so we're going to provoke them into attacking us. We want your support."

But if you're ok with being manipulted to go after countries and drop more depleted uranium on them, then I guess you have made your choice.


Edited by TrueBrode (01/24/04 02:26 PM)


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Registered: 01/04/04
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Re: Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2268588 - 01/24/04 05:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

carbonhoots said:
Once again, this becomes necessary...

Why do they shake this 'evil dictator's hand, and chop off the hand of another evil dictator?

Could it be 'evil dictator' is an excuse for imperialism? Iraq is worse off now than it was under Saddam, and the USA helped to install Saddam, and supported him.




I think that we should do anything in our powers to remove evil in the world. IF this means that we help one evil SOB to remove a greater evil (Stalin murdered more people than Hitler did, yet we sided with him in WWII) and then we deal with the first evil person, so be it. THe world isn't all lollipops and candycanes.

Iraq is worse off than it was under Saddam? I'd like to nkow what criteron you use to maek this statement, and discuss those points with you.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,791
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria [Re: Learyfan]
    #2268884 - 01/24/04 07:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think it will be a lot longer than that before the dems regain power.

Hopefully they never will.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2268898 - 01/24/04 07:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
I think it will be a lot longer than that before the dems regain power.

Hopefully they never will.



Thanks to electronic voting, you may get your wish.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,791
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria [Re: Evolving]
    #2268907 - 01/24/04 07:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Thanks to electronic voting, you may get your wish.



If ever there was a bad idea.....


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineSaviorSix
Stranger
Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 23
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Rumsfeld considers striking Hizbullah to provoke Syria [Re: Learyfan]
    #2269735 - 01/25/04 12:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Quote:

Could it be 'evil dictator' is an excuse for imperialism?




No. We care about the Iraqi people. Really, we do.

Good post CH.


-------------------------------------
Not quite.
If you think the U.S. foreign policy is based on imperialism, you are foolishly mistaken.

Think about history folks...
Think about what being a world power in the past meant, that was imperialism.. (aka total domination)

At least now, in a more 'civilized' world, theres a more diplomatic- imperialism,


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