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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 3
    #25591205 - 11/04/18 09:41 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

No shit. But the “natives” don’t blame capitalists, they blame Jews and muslims.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25593532 - 11/05/18 09:51 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/04/french-far-right-overtakes-macron-eu-parliament-election-poll/

"Marine Le Pen's National Rally has overtaken the centrist party of Emmanuel Macron, the French president, for the first time, according to an opinion poll released Sunday, in a further sign of the rise of the far-Right in Europe."

All too predictable.

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OfflineWill Scarlet
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #25595789 - 11/06/18 10:25 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
No shit. But the “natives” don’t blame capitalists, they blame Jews and muslims.




You are so wrong T.Ecs. We blame the politicians for facilitating the invasion of Europe by millions of muslims. The capitalists benefit because wages are driven downwards.

The repeated use of the term 'far right' is merely a convenient term to disguise the motives and objectives of the new wave sweeping Europe.

Steve Bannon was over here recently, he said he wanted to help with finance and organisation of the 'far right'. He soon realised that he was not as popular as he expected. We are not all libertarians, we support our national health services, most of us support the nationalisation of essential services.

So stop reading the propaganda in the corporate media, it is often based on press releases by organisations such as 'Hope not Hate' which is itself a front organisation for the extreme left Socialist Workers Party.

BTW I used to be a Labour Party supporter until Tony Blair became it's leader, he was too right wing for me. I then supported the Green Party until they were they became too left wing for me.

I now consider myself to be in the centre politically.

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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Will Scarlet]
    #25606805 - 11/11/18 09:04 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)



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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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OfflineXUL
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote]
    #25607022 - 11/11/18 11:18 AM (5 years, 6 months ago)

I like chips.


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TRUMP 2020

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OfflineTinyBee
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25608290 - 11/11/18 11:56 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
You just can’t seem to grasp that accepting refugees for processing is because of international and federal law, not to make SJW liberals feel better.



Two questions:

1.  Why should a sovereign nation like the United States answer to international laws?
2.  What will happen if the nation disobeys said laws?
3.  I am not terribly familiar with these federal laws but that's say they exist.  They are not just, because the purpose of a country's laws and by extension its government is to take care of its citizens and them only.  The federal government should not be obligated to help foreign nationals, which is what these people are.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: TinyBee] * 1
    #25610064 - 11/12/18 05:05 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TinyBee said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
You just can’t seem to grasp that accepting refugees for processing is because of international and federal law, not to make SJW liberals feel better.



Two questions:

1.  Why should a sovereign nation like the United States answer to international laws?
2.  What will happen if the nation disobeys said laws?
3.  I am not terribly familiar with these federal laws but that's say they exist.  They are not just, because the purpose of a country's laws and by extension its government is to take care of its citizens and them only.  The federal government should not be obligated to help foreign nationals, which is what these people are.




1. Because that’s the standard we (and the intl community) hold other nations to.
2. Depends on the nation. If Iraq (allegedly) breaks international law, we invade and kill a million people, plunging the nation into decades of chaos. If Israel or the US break international law, we simply say those laws don’t apply to us.
3. That’s your opinion. Vote for politicians who will change that law. Until then, it’s law.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25610125 - 11/12/18 05:22 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

TinyBee said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
You just can’t seem to grasp that accepting refugees for processing is because of international and federal law, not to make SJW liberals feel better.



Two questions:

1.  Why should a sovereign nation like the United States answer to international laws?
2.  What will happen if the nation disobeys said laws?
3.  I am not terribly familiar with these federal laws but that's say they exist.  They are not just, because the purpose of a country's laws and by extension its government is to take care of its citizens and them only.  The federal government should not be obligated to help foreign nationals, which is what these people are.




1. Because that’s the standard we (and the intl community) hold other nations to.
2. Depends on the nation. If Iraq (allegedly) breaks international law, we invade and kill a million people, plunging the nation into decades of chaos. If Israel or the US break international law, we simply say those laws don’t apply to us.
3. That’s your opinion. Vote for politicians who will change that law. Until then, it’s law.




So you acknowledge international law isn't worth the paper it's printed on unless it's backed up by force. 

Maybe you can inform Tip of this basic commonsense,

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #25610130 - 11/12/18 05:24 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

How is “might makes right” a moral argument? It’s clearly not a legal one.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25610142 - 11/12/18 05:28 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
How is “might makes right” a moral argument? It’s clearly not a legal one.




Like all laws, including international law. It's open to interpretation.  I think we both know how this works.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 1
    #25610162 - 11/12/18 05:32 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Yep: US imperialism, and it’s related interests, are above the law. Yes, that is the reality of the current world order. But you don’t get to turn around and lecture about sovereignty and the rule of law when it suits you. It’s either about power, or about what’s legal. Pick one.


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OfflineTinyBee
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25610291 - 11/12/18 06:12 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)


Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

TinyBee said:

Two questions:

1.  Why should a sovereign nation like the United States answer to international laws?
2.  What will happen if the nation disobeys said laws?
3.  I am not terribly familiar with these federal laws but that's say they exist.  They are not just, because the purpose of a country's laws and by extension its government is to take care of its citizens and them only.  The federal government should not be obligated to help foreign nationals, which is what these people are.




1. Because that’s the standard we (and the intl community) hold other nations to.
2. Depends on the nation. If Iraq (allegedly) breaks international law, we invade and kill a million people, plunging the nation into decades of chaos. If Israel or the US break international law, we simply say those laws don’t apply to us.




Correct me if wrong, but are you saying that the US is the enforcer of these international laws, and furthermore, if she breaks these laws, nothing bad will happen?  If this is the case, why obey them at all?  Nothing bad will happen anyway.

Quote:


3. That’s your opinion. Vote for politicians who will change that law. Until then, it’s law.




So what is your personal opinion on these federal laws?  I am curious.  Do you think the purpose of a nation's government is to care for foreign nationals or just its own citizens?

Edited by TinyBee (11/12/18 06:13 PM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: TinyBee]
    #25610333 - 11/12/18 06:32 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Are you asking for my opinion? Or what the duties of a nation state are?


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OfflineTinyBee
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25610334 - 11/12/18 06:33 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Are you asking for my opinion? Or what the duties of a nation state are?



Your personal opinion.

p.s. I dont think there is even a consensus on what the duties of a nation's government should be.

Edited by TinyBee (11/12/18 06:35 PM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: TinyBee] * 1
    #25610341 - 11/12/18 06:36 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

I think it is the duty of society to assist those in need, even if that means giving them a tent and some soul in a camp somewhere. And that’s all federal and international law require: process asylum requests.

I won’t get into the culpability of US society to deal with the blowback of our own foreign policy, because that’s much more complicated.


In my opinion, it is the duty of all peoples to provide food, shelter, and medicine to any persons in need. Especially if you’re the richest nation in the history of the world, and double especially if you’re the richest nation in the history of the world AND you caused the problems necessitating your help.


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OfflineTinyBee
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25610527 - 11/12/18 07:44 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I think it is the duty of society to assist those in need, even if that means giving them a tent and some soul in a camp somewhere. And that’s all federal and international law require: process asylum requests.

I won’t get into the culpability of US society to deal with the blowback of our own foreign policy, because that’s much more complicated.


In my opinion, it is the duty of all peoples to provide food, shelter, and medicine to any persons in need. Especially if you’re the richest nation in the history of the world, and double especially if you’re the richest nation in the history of the world AND you caused the problems necessitating your help.



Well, let me first say that I think you have noble intentions.  That said, a few things:

1.  If we follow your line of reasoning, then US has to take care of all the poor and needy of the world.  This is to be consistent.  But we all know that this will not happen, and if it somehow did, it would only make US poor and her citizens would see a much lower standards of living because most money and resources would have gone to aid these foreigners.

2.  Why do you think you get to impose your personal idea of what should be done on the rest of the nation?  I mean, if you want to personally help refugees, that's fine.  But you should not "hijack" the government to do what you think is good.

3.  What if someone's vision of whats good differs from yours?  For example, I think helping the worlds animals is good.  And I am not just saying this to be contrary.  I sincerely feel this way.  So, who should the government listen to?

4.  You think US should do these things because she is the richest nation on earth.  Do you also feel this way about the richest people in your country?  What do you think would happen if you went up to Bezos and Bill gates and ask them to share their wealth with the poor folks "because they are rich"?

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: TinyBee]
    #25610593 - 11/12/18 08:25 PM (5 years, 6 months ago)

1. The well-being of society (the economy, in simple terms) is not a zero sum game.


2. I get to advocate my desired policy same as anyone else in a democracy. Don’t act high and mighty when the US government regularly and consistently does things against majority public support. If we had a nation where the majority decided things, we’d have universal healthcare, higher taxes in the rich, action on climate change, and end to the wars, breaking up the banks, and campaign finance reform. Yet somehow none of those things ever happen.

3. Everyone else has the same right as me to advocate their ideas, provided they don’t advocate or entice harm upon society, like fascism, or nazism.

4. Yes, the US (mostly just the upper class) has an obscene amount of wealth. And it’s a moral failure that that state of things can coexist with the millions of easily preventable deaths happen every year.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25622618 - 11/18/18 08:58 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

This thread never dies.


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"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineXUL
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25622645 - 11/18/18 09:07 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Large swaths of Islamic tenants do not agree with European  roots bedded  in Christianity. The two cultures, born from religion, are incompatible.

They have enough room. Close the borders.

Poland saved itself.


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TRUMP 2020

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: XUL] * 1
    #25622650 - 11/18/18 09:09 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

XUL said:
Large swaths of Islamic tenants do not agree with European  roots bedded  in Christianity. The two cultures, born from religion, are incompatible.

They have enough room. Close the borders.

Poland saved itself.




You'll have to forgive me... My code ring is still floating around in a cracker jack box somewhere, and I am unable to decipher your message.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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