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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 2
    #23989510 - 01/07/17 12:59 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

your loaded questions? nah.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 2
    #23989574 - 01/07/17 01:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
You can never just answer the question.




I answered your loaded questions, now will you answer any of my questions?




The question was "what do you think the major contributing factors of xenophobia in Europe are?"

Not "what are 10 other reasons why some Europeans hate Muslims?"

I ALWAYS answer your questions after youve decided to sidestep mine. No longer.


--------------------

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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23989647 - 01/07/17 02:02 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
You can never just answer the question.




I answered your loaded questions, now will you answer any of my questions?




The question was "what do you think the major contributing factors of xenophobia in Europe are?"

Not "what are 10 other reasons why some Europeans hate Muslims?"

I ALWAYS answer your questions after youve decided to sidestep mine. No longer.




I have been to Europe many times, I think the reason stems from Muslims isolating themselves from the native culture.  So the question could be, why do they stay to themselves and not embrace Western culture?

Some of the reasons is that their culture is VERY DIFFERENT from Western culture, different values, different moral standards, different religions, different ideologies and different genetics.

When my ancestors came to the US they didn't hate or reject the native culture, yes they had different customs and heritage, but it wasn't radically different by any measure. So within just ONE generation the integration process was basically complete.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 2
    #23989820 - 01/07/17 03:18 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

The native culture of the US was killed off by the time your ancestors made it here.

BUT, you're right that the level of hatred amongst white immigrants is nothing like what we see in Europe now. A better comparison would be how the Chinese were treated in the American West.


--------------------

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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23989940 - 01/07/17 03:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
The native culture of the US was killed off by the time your ancestors made it here.

BUT, you're right that the level of hatred amongst white immigrants is nothing like what we see in Europe now. A better comparison would be how the Chinese were treated in the American West.




"level of hatred...is nothing like what we see in Europe now"

Why is that?  Pure bigotry or justifiable reactions considering the circumstances surrounding the lack of integration results?

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #23990096 - 01/07/17 04:48 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

define integration so we can make some new laws.

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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #23990102 - 01/07/17 04:50 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I have been to Europe many times, I think the reason stems from Muslims isolating themselves from the native culture.  So the question could be, why do they stay to themselves and not embrace Western culture?

Some of the reasons is that their culture is VERY DIFFERENT from Western culture, different values, different moral standards, different religions, different ideologies and different genetics.

When my ancestors came to the US they didn't hate or reject the native culture, yes they had different customs and heritage, but it wasn't radically different by any measure. So within just ONE generation the integration process was basically complete.




i think now in Europe increasingly there are discussions about these issues. There are many communities in Europe who are very insular. How can we integrate people better into our societies? It is a two way street and if we do our best to support the process then that gives us the best chance to make the most of new citizens/residents. I heard today something on the radio about the lack of English classes for the many that want to learn, and the fact that many others coming speak English as their first or 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc language.

some people do tend to stick with those of a similar background, part of that is a natural process and can be a very good thing.. but its about mobility - not just for immigrants but for all citizens.

There are differences and there are similarities, you seem to speak in terms of incompatibility and cant seem to fathom shared identities. Addressing the sources of anger/alienation is the only way to alleviate the animosity/structural inequalities between groups of your designation.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote]
    #23990139 - 01/07/17 05:01 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Erdogan offers citizenship to Syrian and Iraqi refugees


Quote:

Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdogan has announced that some Syrian and Iraqi refugees who pass a screening process will be granted Turkish citizenship.

In a speech broadcast on television on Friday, Erdogan said that security checks would be carried out to determine who among the millions who fled war in their home countries were eligible for citizenship.

"Our interior ministry is carrying out work, and under this work, some of them will be granted our nationality after all the necessary checks have been carried out," he said.

"There are highly qualified people among them, there are engineers, lawyers, doctors. Let's make use of that talent ... Instead of letting them work illegally here and there, let's give them the chance to work as citizens like the children of this nation."

Erdogan added that the interior ministry "is ready to implement the measure at any time". But he gave no further details, notably about how many would gain Turkish nationality.

According to Turkish government figures, the country is hosting more than three million Syrians and Iraqis who have fled conflict.

The Turkish leader outlined a naturalisation plan last summer but the idea was met with angry protests and xenophobic comments on social media.

The country's political opposition saw the plan as a scheme to widen Erdogan's electoral basis at a time when he is pushing for constitutional reform to strengthen his powers.




10 ways countries can help refugees integrate


I think these things if done would make a better society for all of us as well as for the incoming people settled. If instead, we made systems of detention, separation and surveillance, we make those systems for use against all citizens. Whatever happens, it is clear that the situation needs to be taking control of properly.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Offlineviktor
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #23990150 - 01/07/17 05:04 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I have been to Europe many times, I think the reason stems from Muslims isolating themselves from the native culture.  So the question could be, why do they stay to themselves and not embrace Western culture?




The natives are always going to reject the invaders because they are invaders.

The European political classes have been under the delusion that just because they want hordes of Muslims then their people must also want hordes of Muslims.

Any Muslim that tries to integrate with European natives is immediately rejected by a population that, let's be clear here - has absolutely no experience of interacting peacefully with another culture, ever.

Take Malkuthian for example. I have lived and worked in Sweden for years, married a Swede, learned the language fluently. But he is still happy to call me an outsider because I disagree with him politically.

So how can Muslims ever fit in?

If a Swedish-looking man like me can move legally to Sweden, marry a Swede and speak fluent Swedish and still get rejected, how can a genital mutilating Muslim who makes his wife wear a burka ever, ever, ever fit in?

The simple answer is: he can't. Muslims will never integrate into European culture because Europeans will reject anyone who isn't the same race as them.

Given that both sides are so unable to act peaceably towards each other, allowing Muslim immigration to Europe is like throwing a bunch of vicious dogs together into a small cage.

Obviously there's going to be violence.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: viktor]
    #23990181 - 01/07/17 05:10 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

the fact of someone being somewhere or no, is stupid, and i'm going to attempt to bury the notion for good and kill it. Poland, Swedish, blah blah, it doesn't really matter. but things should at least be made clear that being from one place or another doesn't preclude you from being a complete outsider in terms of the (actual) majority in a country.

democracy is actually an important aspect of things- even if the current frame of mind in the mainstream (or rather newstream) is that it's inherently dangerous (again, decided long long ago, nothing new under the sun), it's still a fundamental part of the way things work in a free society. no matter what. what was the excuse for so many enterprises and forays into the old world from America? for democracy! really it was against Communism- which alone should make you think; 'specially in terms of Vietnam; even though they were socialists more than anything, until they were pushed so far as to compare with the likes of Pol Pot in terms of, let's just say, lunacy....democracy is the only thing that keeps us from regressing back to the days of kings, servitude, slavery...all that nice stuff.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 2
    #23990216 - 01/07/17 05:20 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
The native culture of the US was killed off by the time your ancestors made it here.

BUT, you're right that the level of hatred amongst white immigrants is nothing like what we see in Europe now. A better comparison would be how the Chinese were treated in the American West.




"level of hatred...is nothing like what we see in Europe now"

Why is that?  Pure bigotry or justifiable reactions considering the circumstances surrounding the lack of integration results?




Both. I wish you would understand that its both.

It seems more often than not you operate under the premise that anti-muslim bigotry simply doesnt exist, or worse: is 100% justified (and therefore isnt actually bigotry).


--------------------

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #23990233 - 01/07/17 05:24 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
the fact of someone being somewhere or no, is stupid, and i'm going to attempt to bury the notion for good and kill it. Poland, Swedish, blah blah, it doesn't really matter. but things should at least be made clear that being from one place or another doesn't preclude you from being a complete outsider in terms of the (actual) majority in a country.

democracy is actually an important aspect of things- even if the current frame of mind in the mainstream (or rather newstream) is that it's inherently dangerous (again, decided long long ago, nothing new under the sun), it's still a fundamental part of the way things work in a free society. no matter what. what was the excuse for so many enterprises and forays into the old world from America? for democracy! really it was against Communism- which alone should make you think; 'specially in terms of Vietnam; even though they were socialists more than anything, until they were pushed so far as to compare with the likes of Pol Pot in terms of, let's just say, lunacy....democracy is the only thing that keeps us from regressing back to the days of kings, servitude, slavery...all that nice stuff.




Well said.

Im a white anglosaxon male born and raised in the US.

But I live in the South. And being an atheist socialist doesnt get me invited to many hootinannies.

Hell, simply having a Bernie sticker on my car got it keyed.

This dream of having a homogenous society is bullshit. Humans will always divide themselves into smaller subgroups.



--------------------

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Registered: 08/28/09
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #23990278 - 01/07/17 05:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
the fact of someone being somewhere or no, is stupid, and i'm going to attempt to bury the notion for good and kill it. Poland, Swedish, blah blah, it doesn't really matter. but things should at least be made clear that being from one place or another doesn't preclude you from being a complete outsider in terms of the (actual) majority in a country.

democracy is actually an important aspect of things- even if the current frame of mind in the mainstream (or rather newstream) is that it's inherently dangerous (again, decided long long ago, nothing new under the sun), it's still a fundamental part of the way things work in a free society. no matter what. what was the excuse for so many enterprises and forays into the old world from America? for democracy! really it was against Communism- which alone should make you think; 'specially in terms of Vietnam; even though they were socialists more than anything, until they were pushed so far as to compare with the likes of Pol Pot in terms of, let's just say, lunacy....democracy is the only thing that keeps us from regressing back to the days of kings, servitude, slavery...all that nice stuff.




Well said.

Im a white anglosaxon male born and raised in the US.

But I live in the South. And being an atheist socialist doesnt get me invited to many hootinannies.

Hell, simply having a Bernie sticker on my car got it keyed.

This dream of having a homogenous society is bullshit. Humans will always divide themselves into smaller subgroups.






that's what i've been saying now for like probably a good year and a half. finally someone is talking my language. :gameover: coalitions always fragment, divide, and conquer.

now we'll see if any Trump fans can acknowledge that themselves as Trump's braintrust can actually step to the plate and help Trump control his administration and keep him to fire on his promises, so we don't see another reigning 8 years of retardedness on the news to argue about day in and out until the party system either gets changed, or the roll-over occurs again to a re-formed democratic party, which will just get more stupid as a result of having the change to a more prevalent platform, an item of consequence like the selfsame notion of Trump's administration without 'the people' at the helm, as opposed to a new establishment, that simply gives more control the neocons--- even Qman, is aware of this distinct possibility.

society is a fiction.
booya. :cool:

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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote]
    #23990292 - 01/07/17 05:46 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
Quote:

qman said:
I have been to Europe many times, I think the reason stems from Muslims isolating themselves from the native culture.  So the question could be, why do they stay to themselves and not embrace Western culture?

Some of the reasons is that their culture is VERY DIFFERENT from Western culture, different values, different moral standards, different religions, different ideologies and different genetics.

When my ancestors came to the US they didn't hate or reject the native culture, yes they had different customs and heritage, but it wasn't radically different by any measure. So within just ONE generation the integration process was basically complete.




i think now in Europe increasingly there are discussions about these issues. There are many communities in Europe who are very insular. How can we integrate people better into our societies? It is a two way street and if we do our best to support the process then that gives us the best chance to make the most of new citizens/residents. I heard today something on the radio about the lack of English classes for the many that want to learn, and the fact that many others coming speak English as their first or 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc language.

some people do tend to stick with those of a similar background, part of that is a natural process and can be a very good thing.. but its about mobility - not just for immigrants but for all citizens.

There are differences and there are similarities, you seem to speak in terms of incompatibility and cant seem to fathom shared identities. Addressing the sources of anger/alienation is the only way to alleviate the animosity/structural inequalities between groups of your designation.




Are Muslims willing to abandon their religion, values, customs, ideology and culture to integrate into Western culture?  If so, then they have a chance of success, if not it's the same old problem.

I think a main source of the anger in Muslim communities is that Western culture and its people don't embrace Islam, that structural issue isn't going away.

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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23990316 - 01/07/17 05:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
The native culture of the US was killed off by the time your ancestors made it here.

BUT, you're right that the level of hatred amongst white immigrants is nothing like what we see in Europe now. A better comparison would be how the Chinese were treated in the American West.




"level of hatred...is nothing like what we see in Europe now"

Why is that?  Pure bigotry or justifiable reactions considering the circumstances surrounding the lack of integration results?




Both. I wish you would understand that its both.

It seems more often than not you operate under the premise that anti-muslim bigotry simply doesnt exist, or worse: is 100% justified (and therefore isnt actually bigotry).




"anti-muslim bigotry...is 100% justified"

Well, it's 100% predictable in my opinion. That's why I'm in favor of deportation and closed borders.

The point is that other minority groups don't bring the same baggage as Muslims/Africans, therefore the reaction isn't mainly based in xenophobia or bigotry.

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Offlineviktor
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #23990450 - 01/07/17 06:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think anyone is saying that anti-Muslim bigotry is justified, but we are saying it's very, very predictable.

There are no European cultures with a history of living peacefully with other cultures, and there are no Islamic cultures with one either.

So the idea that Europeans and Muslims - probably the two most bloodthirsty and warlike groups of people in history - can live peacefully side by side is just a pipedream.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #23990490 - 01/07/17 06:58 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
the fact of someone being somewhere or no, is stupid, and i'm going to attempt to bury the notion for good and kill it. Poland, Swedish, blah blah, it doesn't really matter. but things should at least be made clear that being from one place or another doesn't preclude you from being a complete outsider in terms of the (actual) majority in a country.

democracy is actually an important aspect of things- even if the current frame of mind in the mainstream (or rather newstream) is that it's inherently dangerous (again, decided long long ago, nothing new under the sun), it's still a fundamental part of the way things work in a free society. no matter what. what was the excuse for so many enterprises and forays into the old world from America? for democracy! really it was against Communism- which alone should make you think; 'specially in terms of Vietnam; even though they were socialists more than anything, until they were pushed so far as to compare with the likes of Pol Pot in terms of, let's just say, lunacy....democracy is the only thing that keeps us from regressing back to the days of kings, servitude, slavery...all that nice stuff.




Well said.

Im a white anglosaxon male born and raised in the US.

But I live in the South. And being an atheist socialist doesnt get me invited to many hootinannies.

Hell, simply having a Bernie sticker on my car got it keyed.

This dream of having a homogenous society is bullshit. Humans will always divide themselves into smaller subgroups.






people's interests aren't homogenous.  It makes sense to split into groups based on mutual self interest.  What doesn't make sense is to split into groups based on arbitrary factors like skin color.  As a poor white man, my interests tend to align much more closely with a poor black man or a poor hispanic man than with a very wealthy white man. :twocents:


--------------------


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Registered: 08/28/09
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: viktor]
    #23990493 - 01/07/17 06:59 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

that's great. it's too bad that the conflagration already ignited, and thanks to the US interventionism, the thing that the US was warned about, so justifiedly, it was either the fucking migrant crisis, or mass of mass genocides.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
people's interests aren't homogenous.  It makes sense to split into groups based on mutual self interest.  What doesn't make sense is to split into groups based on arbitrary factors like skin color.  As a poor white man, my interests tend to align much more closely with a poor black man or a poor hispanic man than with a very wealthy white man. :twocents:



precisely.

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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: akira_akuma] * 2
    #23990536 - 01/07/17 07:13 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

The minute you make race supersede class you are no longer a marxist

I don't give a fuck what any "radicalized" liberal has to say about it either.

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: viktor]
    #23990539 - 01/07/17 07:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
I don't think anyone is saying that anti-Muslim bigotry is justified, but we are saying it's very, very predictable.

There are no European cultures with a history of living peacefully with other cultures, and there are no Islamic cultures with one either.

So the idea that Europeans and Muslims - probably the two most bloodthirsty and warlike groups of people in history - can live peacefully side by side is just a pipedream.




English managed to integrate some indians.  Sure there was some colonialism involved, but what're a few massacres between friends?

Also, as an example from ancient times, Celtiberians (spaniards from back in the day)
coexisted peacefully with Carthaginians (north africans) at least as much as can be expected with a foreign invader.  It was fairly profitable for all parties for a bit.


--------------------


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