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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22747477 - 01/07/16 08:53 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Hmm they're giving the far-right more than enough fuel...




I'm also surprised HU or qman havent been going on about this yet!
youre right, but its not that the far-right need much to be fuelled and jump to overarching generalisations about ALL immigrants/refugees/muslims/arabs/arablooking people/blacks/others.

They sexually assaulted many, raped one and mugged them all. Obviously that is fucked. They should, and will, face serious consequences. No one is defending them.  Obviously taking in over a million people into Germany isn't easy and is going to cause a lot of problems but criminal behaviour isn't unique to foreigners.

The reason the government is being super cautious is because generally people will jump to massive generalisations that will cause more tension in an already difficult situation. It's global news partly because it conforms to a narrative of "them vs us" that gets gobbled up and perpetuates the problem.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22747490 - 01/07/16 08:57 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
:justastonishing:

Fuck Muslims! Fuck Christians too!

The West by-and-large despises Middle Eastern politics because they implement a theocratic authoritarian form of governance. The funny thing is, that's what the evangelical right wing of America wishes to implement here!




No, there is a difference between saying FUCK THEM and not respecting them. There are still many good religious people, even if the religion isnt always that respectable.
As Enlil said, it isnt about like or dislike - "Fuck them" kinda misses that point i would have thought?


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22747528 - 01/07/16 09:09 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
Yes, the video was partially accurate, but Trump has clearly bashed global corporations moving operations outside the US and has threatened high tariffs if elected, no other politician has done it. 

The decline of the middle class in the US and EU is a combination of BOTH globalization and immigrants flooding the domestic labor markets.

Saying it's just globalization is incorrect, saying it's just immigrants is also incorrect, it's both. My point is, if the jobs are not there in the first place, do NOT bring in more people, especially if they're unskilled and turn into social services leeches that cause more harm than good.




Saying it's just those two things is also incorrect. Technological advancements replacing workers, and increasing the productivity of fewer workers is a contributing factor. Corrupt banking practices have made their contribution to the problem. Shit, even corrupt pharmaceutical and medical manufacturers or insurers have played a role.

We really need a watered down brand of Socialism to cope with the near future. As technology advances, we will need to implement stronger Socialist policies.




Well that's the point, technology and productivity gains is like stating the obvious, that's why when people say Germany will need these refugees today because they might need workers in 2060 they are full of shit, in 2060 there will be even less jobs.

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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22747549 - 01/07/16 09:15 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Starter said:


He’s Muslim and has the typical misogynist attitude of their ilk.




Quote:

qman said:
So the main criteria for measuring misogyny in a culture/religion is the sex of their leadership in the country?  :lolwut:

Think about politics in the US, voters have the choice of just 2 candidates when they enter the booth, those 2 choices are predetermined by people with other intentions.

If Hillary gets elected in the US, do you think that would have some sort of significant meaning?  Nope. Obama was put in by the political elite, does that mean the US isn't racist?  Nope, they just didn't want Romney.




I think you're arguing something unrelated to what I'm arguing. Look at the first quote. The original claim was that Muslims are typically misogynistic. If this claim were true, you wouldn't have the situation where a majority of Muslims live in countries that have elected female leaders. This isn't an isolated case. Muslims have time and again shown that they will elect female leaders. Not something you would expect if Muslims hated women. That's the only point I'm making.




"Not something you would expect if Muslims hated women"

That's not true, maybe they are voting for the lesser of two evils, is that a endorsement for women in general?  No.

Does having Obama in for 8 years mean all whites in the US can't be racist?  No, it means a few more people voted for Obama than Romney, mainly because they couldn't tolerate for Romney as President, it wasn't for the love of black males.

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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22747584 - 01/07/16 09:26 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:

the decline of the middle class in the US and EU is a combination of BOTH globalization and immigrants flooding the domestic labor markets.

Saying it's just globalization is incorrect, saying it's just immigrants is also incorrect, it's both.




this is a very devious statement.

youre implying that middle class woes are to be blamed about 50/50 on either factor, but that's simply not true. Obviously both are factors (so is the 1968 Democratic convention, and a trillion other things), but we're  just supposed to take you on your word that the implied "combination" is level enough to merit such attention on this topic.

Im not buying it. Illegal immigrants didn't crash the stock market, take middle class jobs, foreclose on homes, or bankrupt them with medical/credit card/student loan debt. They didn't conspire to pass global trade treaties which outsourced  labor from the very market they were smuggling themselves into. You admit that its difficult to comprehend the intricacies  of all the factors leading to the demise of the American middle class, so don't eat up the Trump line and take the intellectually lazy path by blaming illegal immigrants.




"so don't eat up the Trump line"

I have been posting about the harm of illegal immigrants in the US labor market for many years before Trump entered the scene, so I'm not one of these "intellectually lazy" chumps jumping on a popular bandwagon.

When a economy is growing at a very fast past and there's a huge demand for labor the immigrant worker can be a positive contributor, but those scenarios are very rare. Today we have a massive surplus of both unskilled and now skilled labor, illegals take jobs from US citizens and drives wages lower, as a result this lowers the standard of living for US citizens.

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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 1
    #22747940 - 01/07/16 11:07 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Over 80 women get sexually assault in one night by Africans and Muslims in Cologne, so what does the Mayor suggest to women- stay in groups and keep a arms length away from these parasites. :facepalm:  How about deporting the scum?


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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22748002 - 01/07/16 11:24 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

So sad, when the German people wake up it won't be pretty.


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InvisibleBubbles85

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22748280 - 01/07/16 01:00 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Sadly this is just the tip of the ice berg involving very serious sexual crimes against white European women by third world immigrants. Some have even been murdered in the process.

Sweden, thanks to "multiculturalism", is now the rape capital of the western world, with only the African nation of Lesotho recording more sexual assaults world wide.

Apparently rapes have gone up in Sweden 1472% since the mid seventies, when third world immigrant ion first began, with nearly 80% of all perpetrators of these crimes identified as foreign.

I read a report the other day that suggested that 1 in 4 white swedish women, are now expected to be raped within there life time. Absolutely disgusting.

Muslim rape epidemic sweeping Europe

Sweden Shocked Again after Woman Raped to Death by Somali Immigrant

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 1
    #22748427 - 01/07/16 01:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
illegals take jobs from US citizens and drives wages lower, as a result this lowers the standard of living for US citizens.



Globalization is doing this, but I believe you agree.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22748442 - 01/07/16 01:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
illegals take jobs from US citizens and drives wages lower, as a result this lowers the standard of living for US citizens.



Globalization is doing this, but I believe you agree.




And as a result there's only so many domestic jobs available, adding more workers to the US economy only drives wages even lower, it's simple supply and demand at work.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22748471 - 01/07/16 01:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
adding more workers to the US economy only drives wages even lower, it's simple supply and demand at work.



It increases the demand for goods and services when more people have money to spend.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22748489 - 01/07/16 02:00 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
illegals take jobs from US citizens and drives wages lower, as a result this lowers the standard of living for US citizens.



Globalization is doing this, but I believe you agree.




And as a result there's only so many domestic jobs available, adding more workers to the US economy only drives wages even lower, it's simple supply and demand at work.




Thats why libs want the govt to mandate a higher minimum wage, they claim to believe this to be the "magic potion" to rid the world of poverty


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com




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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #22748531 - 01/07/16 02:12 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
adding more workers to the US economy only drives wages even lower, it's simple supply and demand at work.



It increases the demand for goods and services when more people have money to spend.




It increases unemployment and lowers wages for US citizens, that DECREASES the demand for "good and services".

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #22749400 - 01/07/16 05:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Thats why libs want the govt to mandate a higher minimum wage, they claim to believe this to be the "magic potion" to rid the world of poverty




Way to once again throw in a totally unrelated comment, and demonstrate your lack of ability to follow a fucking conversation. You don't have any arguments against a minimum wage hike that haven't already been dispelled thoroughly in these forums. Nothing gets through that skull of yours.

Why are you even here?

Quote:

Tipote said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
:justastonishing:

Fuck Muslims! Fuck Christians too!

The West by-and-large despises Middle Eastern politics because they implement a theocratic authoritarian form of governance. The funny thing is, that's what the evangelical right wing of America wishes to implement here!




No, there is a difference between saying FUCK THEM and not respecting them. There are still many good religious people, even if the religion isnt always that respectable.
As Enlil said, it isnt about like or dislike - "Fuck them" kinda misses that point i would have thought?




I have no respect for them, and neither does Enlil. I take it one step further, because religious folks in these monotheistic religions allow themselves to be affiliated with the most damaging ideologies in all of human history. They associate themselves with the greatest mind-control tool of the masses. They are not critical thinkers, and don't wish to be. Willful ignorance.

They cover up child molestation. They support Israel's terroristic barbarism in the name of revelations. They raid planned parenthood and veteran's funerals. They have been imposing their rule over the rest of the world for centuries. Created the most heinous tools of torture known to man. When you think of a torture dungeon, like you see on tv, you may forget that it was the Catholic church that was responsible for ALL of that! They persecute women, drug users, and homosexuals. While their leaders smoke meth and fuck gay prostitutes. They run televangelist programs and con old ladies out of every fucking dime they've saved for retirement.

I should also add that teaching children that they, or their close friends, may very well go to hell if they don't roll the dice right, and burn in agonizing pain for eternity, should be considered a form of child abuse. People dedicate their lives to these philosophies, and the Vatican can do away with something as central as purgatory (an idea that has plagued women for centuries, thinking their unborn children, or children who died at a young age would eternally be stuck in limbo) over night.

So yes, fuck them!

How can you not look upon them with contempt, every time they snear at you or talk down to you from their self-righteous high horse. Every time they start huffing and puffing about starbucks christmas cups or what the fuck ever. Every time they collectively do something 'good', only to earn themselves brownie points in the afterlife. Self-serving, self-aggrandizing pricks, think they are so fucking special that some flying spaghetti monster gives a flying fuck about Johnny's soccer game, while some starving kid in Africa dies from a parasite infection.

How about telling men in AIDs-ridden Africa not to wear condoms.

Fuck... I could go on and on and on. Do you know what religious America thinks of me? The atheist? Don't expect me to express any sort of courtesy toward them, and pretend that they don't disgust me too.

Edited by Bigbadwooof (01/07/16 06:21 PM)

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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22749547 - 01/07/16 06:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Starter said:


He’s Muslim and has the typical misogynist attitude of their ilk.




Quote:

qman said:
So the main criteria for measuring misogyny in a culture/religion is the sex of their leadership in the country?  :lolwut:

Think about politics in the US, voters have the choice of just 2 candidates when they enter the booth, those 2 choices are predetermined by people with other intentions.

If Hillary gets elected in the US, do you think that would have some sort of significant meaning?  Nope. Obama was put in by the political elite, does that mean the US isn't racist?  Nope, they just didn't want Romney.




I think you're arguing something unrelated to what I'm arguing. Look at the first quote. The original claim was that Muslims are typically misogynistic. If this claim were true, you wouldn't have the situation where a majority of Muslims live in countries that have elected female leaders. This isn't an isolated case. Muslims have time and again shown that they will elect female leaders. Not something you would expect if Muslims hated women. That's the only point I'm making.




"Not something you would expect if Muslims hated women"

That's not true, maybe they are voting for the lesser of two evils, is that a endorsement for women in general?  No.

Does having Obama in for 8 years mean all whites in the US can't be racist?  No, it means a few more people voted for Obama than Romney, mainly because they couldn't tolerate for Romney as President, it wasn't for the love of black males.




First, do you believe that in every instance there was always someone that the Muslims hated more than a woman, even though they are supposedly typically misogynistic? I can certainly see isolated cases of this happening, but not such that the majority of Muslims would live in countries that have elected female leaders.

Second, your Obama analogy doesn't apply to this situation. I am not trying to argue that all Muslims can't be misogynistic. That would be absurd. I'm merely trying to argue that misogyny is not a typical trait of Muslims. Electing Obama suggests that racism is not typical of whites in this country, though there certainly are some racists.

Finally, it is relevant to point out that the misogyny claim (although not yours) was presented without evidence. That which is presented without evidence can be refuted without evidence. So, just looking at the fact that the majority of Muslims live in countries that have elected female leaders would not lead someone to believe that Muslims are typically misogynistic. If you have evidence to suggest they are, I welcome it.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22749577 - 01/07/16 06:26 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

EDIT: Conpletely irrelevant.

Edited by BoldAsLove (01/07/16 09:21 PM)

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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22749584 - 01/07/16 06:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
illegals take jobs from US citizens and drives wages lower, as a result this lowers the standard of living for US citizens.



Globalization is doing this, but I believe you agree.




And as a result there's only so many domestic jobs available, adding more workers to the US economy only drives wages even lower, it's simple supply and demand at work.




Thats why libs want the govt to mandate a higher minimum wage, they claim to believe this to be the "magic potion" to rid the world of poverty




As opposed to the conservative strategy of "Fuck poor people. I hope the rotten good for nothings die."

See, I can make ridiculous strawman arguments too. Doesn't help the debate at all though.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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OfflineWAN
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote]
    #22749960 - 01/07/16 08:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
Quote:

WAN said:
Quote:

Tipote said:
because we arent just talking about foreigners. we are talking about those becoming citizens who then in turn contribute to their societies. or they are stateless people or refugees who should be helped to integrate.





Well I don't doubt you personally really want to help these immigrants but I think for the world's governments to do that, it just doesn't seem right.  Governments' job is to take care of its citizenry, first and foremost.  It is NOT the job of governments to take in stateless people or refugees. 





Refugees are protected under the 1951 Refugee Convention, there is an obligation both legal and moral to help them.





The way you put it, it sounds like nations aren't sovereign.  Their governments have to obey some sort of outside, higher authority.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22750090 - 01/07/16 08:46 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
adding more workers to the US economy only drives wages even lower, it's simple supply and demand at work.



It increases the demand for goods and services when more people have money to spend.




It increases unemployment and lowers wages for US citizens, that DECREASES the demand for "good and services".



A sound argument for a minimum wage increase.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #22750191 - 01/07/16 09:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
adding more workers to the US economy only drives wages even lower, it's simple supply and demand at work.



It increases the demand for goods and services when more people have money to spend.




It increases unemployment and lowers wages for US citizens, that DECREASES the demand for "good and services".




Not necessarily true: (emphasis mine)

"We use policy discontinuities at state borders to identify the effects of minimum wages on earnings and employment in restaurants and other low-wage sectors. Our approach generalizes the case study method by considering all local differences in minimum wage policies between 1990 and 2006. We compare all contiguous county-pairs in the United States that straddle a state border and find no adverse employment effects. We show that traditional approaches that do not account for local economic conditions tend to produce spurious negative effects due to spatial heterogeneities in employment trends that are unrelated to minimum wage policies. Our findings are robust to allowing for long-term effects of minimum wage changes."

"For the range of minimum wage increases over the past several decades, methodologies using local comparisons provide more reliable estimates by controlling for heterogeneity in employment growth. These estimates suggest no detectable employment losses from the kind of minimum wage increases we have seen in the United States."

(source)

Or a similar study from the UK:

"Using system GMM, we conclude that there is no discernable effect of the NMW introduction or its uprating on employment but show how more naive estimation may have revealed the various widely different positive and negative effects found in the literature."

"John Kennan’s (1995, pg. 1955) excellent review of Card and Krueger (1995) argues that when studying the effects of minimum wages on employment ‘we are looking for employment rate changes of about one percentage point, and such changes happen all the time, even from one month to the next. In short, we are looking for a needle in a haystack’ [emphasis added]. We completely agree with this conclusion and accordingly suggest the total effect of invoking and uprating a MW will nearly always be insignificantly different from zero. We have also demonstrated that the reason for some of the literature finding positive effects of the MW is that it does not distinguish between the issues of spatial dependence, the endogeneity of the MW (in the form of the Kaitz index), recessionary demand shocks and the steady state trend in the employment series."

(source)

So, while it may seem intuitive that minimum wage would decrease employment, the peer-reviewed literature on the subject is not conclusive. And, given how complex economics are, it shouldn't seem surprising that an intuitive result may not necessarily be true.




Who's talking about the minimum wage, I'm talking about illegal workers depressing wages for the native population.

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