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qman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote]
#22745561 - 01/06/16 07:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Tipote said:
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qman said: I don't think it's a very complicated economic situation, if there is a shortage of unskilled or skilled labor in a developed nation, the immigrant or refugee could fill the void and make a positive economic contribution to the domestic economy, this isn't about race or Muslims, it's basic economics. The EU has the complete opposite issue, no many workers relative to labor demand.
ahh yeh, mate, its purely about the economics
You are not supporting this argument.
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But who really benefits when 20 million illegals enter the US labor market when there's already a SURPLUS of labor? It drives wages lower for everyone, that only benefits the elite and their profit margins.
its about the long term. in the short term it would probably drive wages lower at first. When immigrants / refugees live, work and are educated in their host country, they will progress up the chain to more skilled jobs. They will contribute to the state, create demand and jobs for the long term. BTW we arent talking about illegals in the US.
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Look at it this way, when a illegal or refugee enters the country and commits a crime and enters the criminal justice system, does that increase economic activity and GDP? Yes it does, but it's not positive economic growth.
pretty prejudiced example right there. it will happen to some, sure. Not the majority.
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When an illegal or refugee goes to the ER and racks up a $30k medical bill, that also increases GDP, but again it's not real economic prosperity.
Yes we there will be some illegals but we are mainly talking about refugees and immigrants here. If they are here illegally they will be deported. Also BTW the European system is a little different from the US healthcare system. Stuff that would cost $30k would be a fraction of that.
There will be give and take, sure. Its long term thinking. They need support, yes, but it will come back in tax revenue.
Also when it comes to the refugees, its not aalll about economics - its about a moral and legal obligation to help refugees. Our financial affairs in Europe are pretty shit but thats only because we have followed the US lead in crippling income inequality that ultimately damage the population certainly a lot more than the refugees do.
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What is the economic reality for illegals and their children in the US? Almost 70% are on some sort of government assistance, that's NOT contribution, it's being a social service leech.
again, we are not talking about illegals in the US. An answer to that would probably be the poverty trap that is the American SS system. If you give people breadcrumbs then they will be desperate and dependent, if you give people a basic reasonable minimum - with their education and healthcare sorted - they can proper and contribute. Or do you thinks its something genetic??? Why not at least try it?
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When my great grandparents came to the US, they actually positively contributed to the domestic economy, they didn't leech off of anyone, can you see the difference?
So you've said, your medal is in the post.
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Those studies are complete garbage, it's based on the stupid theory that by 2060 Germany MIGHT not have enough workers. Fucking ridiculous rationalization for bringing in a bunch of unskilled workers.
I've shown you multiple sources saying this and you still don't like it, but then you don't disprove what i'm saying with evidence.
How does one disprove a speculative theory that goes 50 years into the future with evidence?
If Germany ever needed labor in the year 2060, that could allow people from Poland, Czech, Austria to come into their country, you don't bring in a bunch of refugees from all over the shitholes of the world in the year 2015. 
Muslims have already proven to be a major failure in the EU, they don't bring economic prosperity, they bring economic hardship.
"they will contribute to the state"
That's the pipedream, do illegals and their children contribute to the US state? No, they use 8 TIMES more in tax revenue that they contribute, my guess it's about the same in the EU with Muslims.
"Its long term thinking"
Or pie in the sky dribble, the last 50 years of Muslims living there has been a disaster, who wants more of the same?
"create demand and jobs"
Let them do it in their own homelands if they're so wonderful, oh that's right, there's no opportunity for them.
"Our financial affairs in Europe are pretty shit"
Well finally an accurate statement on your part, breaking news- bringing more poor people into a struggling economic environment doesn't create economic prosperity!!
Europe competes in a global economy, their economy struggles to create jobs, wages have been flat for many years, governments are insolvent and you want to be nice and bring in a bunch of leeches from around the world to make the situation even worse, shame on you.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22745624 - 01/06/16 07:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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BoldAsLove said:
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qman said:
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BoldAsLove said:
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Starter said:
He’s Muslim and has the typical misogynist attitude of their ilk.
If all a misogynist attitude is typical of muslims, why is it that several muslim countries have elected female heads of state?
"Arab women today enjoy the smallest number of parliamentary seats around the world...Some Arab countries have also adapted QUOTAS that guarantee the representation of women"
Why introduce quotas? Yeah, I think we know the rational.
So, what's your point? Not all Arabs are Muslim and not all Muslims are Arab.
I'll ask again, if misogyny is typical of Muslims, then why is it that "the majority of all Muslims in the world live in countries that have, at some time, elected women as their leaders"?
So the main criteria for measuring misogyny in a culture/religion is the sex of their leadership in the country? 
Think about politics in the US, voters have the choice of just 2 candidates when they enter the booth, those 2 choices are predetermined by people with other intentions.
If Hillary gets elected in the US, do you think that would have some sort of significant meaning? Nope. Obama was put in by the political elite, does that mean the US isn't racist? Nope, they just didn't want Romney.
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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite



Registered: 10/28/11
Posts: 5,410
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
#22745712 - 01/06/16 08:01 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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qman said: How does one disprove a speculative theory that goes 50 years into the future with evidence?
at least with a conflicting speculative theory based on studies, not prejudical assumptions.
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Muslims have already proven to be a major failure in the EU, they don't bring economic prosperity, they bring economic hardship.
evidence that "muslims don't bring economic prosperity, they bring economic hardship"? Is it something about being muslim?
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That's the pipedream, do illegals and their children contribute to the US state? No, they use 8 TIMES more in tax revenue that they contribute, my guess it's about the same in the EU with Muslims.
yes that does sound like a guess. Muslims in Europe are not illegals in the US, as much are you think they are.
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Well finally an accurate statement on your part, breaking news- bringing more poor people into a struggling economic environment doesn't create economic prosperity!!
Europe competes in a global economy, their economy struggles to create jobs, wages have been flat for many years, governments are insolvent and you want to be nice and bring in a bunch of leeches from around the world to make the situation even worse, shame on you.
relevant video..
WARNING- *whispers* it has a black man in it..
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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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WAN
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22745786 - 01/06/16 08:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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BoldAsLove said:
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qman said:
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BoldAsLove said:
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Starter said:
He’s Muslim and has the typical misogynist attitude of their ilk.
If all a misogynist attitude is typical of muslims, why is it that several muslim countries have elected female heads of state?
"Arab women today enjoy the smallest number of parliamentary seats around the world...Some Arab countries have also adapted QUOTAS that guarantee the representation of women"
Why introduce quotas? Yeah, I think we know the rational.
So, what's your point? Not all Arabs are Muslim and not all Muslims are Arab.
What is the difference between "Arab" and "Muslim"?
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote]
#22745789 - 01/06/16 08:16 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, the video was partially accurate, but Trump has clearly bashed global corporations moving operations outside the US and has threatened high tariffs if elected, no other politician has done it.
The decline of the middle class in the US and EU is a combination of BOTH globalization and immigrants flooding the domestic labor markets.
Saying it's just globalization is incorrect, saying it's just immigrants is also incorrect, it's both. My point is, if the jobs are not there in the first place, do NOT bring in more people, especially if they're unskilled and turn into social services leeches that cause more harm than good.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: WAN]
#22745878 - 01/06/16 08:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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WAN said:
What is the difference between "Arab" and "Muslim"?
Muslims are devotees of the religion of Islam. Arabs are people from the Arabian peninsula.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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WAN
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Enlil]
#22745883 - 01/06/16 08:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Enlil said:
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WAN said:
What is the difference between "Arab" and "Muslim"?
Muslims are devotees of the religion of Islam. Arabs are people from the Arabian peninsula.
Oh...So "muslim" is to "Arab" as "Christian" is to "White people".
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,515
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: WAN]
#22745897 - 01/06/16 08:39 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sure.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Tipote
petty crook and transvestite



Registered: 10/28/11
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Loc: UK/France/US
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: WAN]
#22745932 - 01/06/16 08:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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WAN said: Oh...So "muslim" is to "Arab" as "Christian" is to "White people".
No, its not confined to Arabs. you have muslims from every part of the world. Black muslims, white muslims, chinese muslims etc..
Islam came to America first through black slavery. Islam started in the Arabian peninsula, which is why the quran is in arabic.
also you have christians of all "races". black christians, etc etc, you get the idea?
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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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Bigbadwooof
Snitterbundem The Dirty



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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Enlil] 1
#22746052 - 01/06/16 09:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Enlil said:
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Tipote said:
Islamophobia is a thing. It is cultural racism.
Maybe, but not all disdain for Muslims is racism. There is also a perfectly rational reason to judge all Muslims negatively. After all, they believe in fairytales. Personally, I have much less respect for someone when I find out that they are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. Is that racist? Or is it just looking at the evidence and forming an opinion based on that evidence?
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Enlil said:
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Tipote said:
If you have less respect for someone if they follow a religion, that just says you dont like religion.
Not really. It says I don't respect irrationality, insanity, or delusion. Like/dislike have nothing to do with it.

Fuck Muslims! Fuck Christians too!
The West by-and-large despises Middle Eastern politics because they implement a theocratic authoritarian form of governance. The funny thing is, that's what the evangelical right wing of America wishes to implement here!
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
#22746075 - 01/06/16 09:12 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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qman said: Yes, the video was partially accurate, but Trump has clearly bashed global corporations moving operations outside the US and has threatened high tariffs if elected, no other politician has done it.
The decline of the middle class in the US and EU is a combination of BOTH globalization and immigrants flooding the domestic labor markets.
Saying it's just globalization is incorrect, saying it's just immigrants is also incorrect, it's both. My point is, if the jobs are not there in the first place, do NOT bring in more people, especially if they're unskilled and turn into social services leeches that cause more harm than good.
Saying it's just those two things is also incorrect. Technological advancements replacing workers, and increasing the productivity of fewer workers is a contributing factor. Corrupt banking practices have made their contribution to the problem. Shit, even corrupt pharmaceutical and medical manufacturers or insurers have played a role.
We really need a watered down brand of Socialism to cope with the near future. As technology advances, we will need to implement stronger Socialist policies.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns
 
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22746500 - 01/06/16 11:12 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Welfare migrant cuts throat of host family’s 7-year-old daughter
http://10news.dk/?p=2165
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Bigbadwooof
Snitterbundem The Dirty



Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22746518 - 01/06/16 11:16 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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hostileuniverse said: Welfare migrant cuts throat of host family’s 7-year-old daughter
http://10news.dk/?p=2165
She was probably gettin too lippy. I thought you right wing radicals advocated corporal punishment/the death penalty.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns
 
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hostileuniverse
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22746534 - 01/06/16 11:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said:
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hostileuniverse said: Welfare migrant cuts throat of host family’s 7-year-old daughter
http://10news.dk/?p=2165
She was probably gettin too lippy. I thought you right wing radicals advocated corporal punishment/the death penalty.
let me guess, you think this is no worse than a late term abortion...
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Bigbadwooof
Snitterbundem The Dirty



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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22746560 - 01/06/16 11:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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hostileuniverse said:
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Bigbadwooof said:
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hostileuniverse said: Welfare migrant cuts throat of host family’s 7-year-old daughter
http://10news.dk/?p=2165
She was probably gettin too lippy. I thought you right wing radicals advocated corporal punishment/the death penalty.
let me guess, you think this is no worse than a late term abortion...
Exactly. You're smarter than I thought!
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns
 
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22746579 - 01/06/16 11:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Bigbadwooof said:
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hostileuniverse said:
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Bigbadwooof said:
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hostileuniverse said: Welfare migrant cuts throat of host family’s 7-year-old daughter
http://10news.dk/?p=2165
She was probably gettin too lippy. I thought you right wing radicals advocated corporal punishment/the death penalty.
let me guess, you think this is no worse than a late term abortion...
Exactly. You're smarter than I thought!
Thats obvious
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: hostileuniverse]
#22746664 - 01/07/16 12:02 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm suprised you're not posting this all over hostileuniverse:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] 2
#22746696 - 01/07/16 12:10 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Starter said:
He’s Muslim and has the typical misogynist attitude of their ilk.
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qman said: So the main criteria for measuring misogyny in a culture/religion is the sex of their leadership in the country? 
Think about politics in the US, voters have the choice of just 2 candidates when they enter the booth, those 2 choices are predetermined by people with other intentions.
If Hillary gets elected in the US, do you think that would have some sort of significant meaning? Nope. Obama was put in by the political elite, does that mean the US isn't racist? Nope, they just didn't want Romney.
I think you're arguing something unrelated to what I'm arguing. Look at the first quote. The original claim was that Muslims are typically misogynistic. If this claim were true, you wouldn't have the situation where a majority of Muslims live in countries that have elected female leaders. This isn't an isolated case. Muslims have time and again shown that they will elect female leaders. Not something you would expect if Muslims hated women. That's the only point I'm making.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Shins]
#22747073 - 01/07/16 05:33 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Shins said: I'm suprised you're not posting this all over hostileuniverse:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046
Hmm they're giving the far-right more than enough fuel...
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] 2
#22747196 - 01/07/16 07:03 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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qman said:
the decline of the middle class in the US and EU is a combination of BOTH globalization and immigrants flooding the domestic labor markets.
Saying it's just globalization is incorrect, saying it's just immigrants is also incorrect, it's both.
this is a very devious statement.
youre implying that middle class woes are to be blamed about 50/50 on either factor, but that's simply not true. Obviously both are factors (so is the 1968 Democratic convention, and a trillion other things), but we're just supposed to take you on your word that the implied "combination" is level enough to merit such attention on this topic.
Im not buying it. Illegal immigrants didn't crash the stock market, take middle class jobs, foreclose on homes, or bankrupt them with medical/credit card/student loan debt. They didn't conspire to pass global trade treaties which outsourced labor from the very market they were smuggling themselves into. You admit that its difficult to comprehend the intricacies of all the factors leading to the demise of the American middle class, so don't eat up the Trump line and take the intellectually lazy path by blaming illegal immigrants.
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