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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24829620 - 12/06/17 10:19 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That's a great idea because most African countries don't have minimum wage laws.  :cookiemonster:



Because that's the solution to most of the world living in poverty relative to the Western world. :facepalm: Even you don't believe in such nonsense.



You haven't seen me argue in favor of minimum wage, or show evidence that the places that raised the minimum wage above the national minimum are doing better than the rest of the country?

I think you HAVE seen the evidence and bury your head in the sand to justify your irrational hatred towards immigrants.




I thought we were discussing mandating a minimum wage in the poorest areas of the world to combat their poverty, why are you changing the subject?

Since when did we starting debating the merits to US minimum wage mandates and what does that have to do with illegal/legal immigration?

You're not trying to suggest that any success in the US minimum wage is universal in nature and the rest of the world would have the same outcome, are you?  You do realize it's apples and oranges.

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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24829654 - 12/06/17 10:32 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
The wealth of the elite isn't as much as many of you guys think it is



Perhaps that explains your ignorance.  The wealth of the elite is FAR more than most people think:


Look at how much of the country's wealth the bottom 50% has.

Quote:

qman said:
Whatever limited wealth that could be extracted would be needed for the poor people already living in the US, not tens of millions of third world migrants.



Look again at the graph above, and how little of the total wealth it would take to DOUBLE the wealth of the bottom 50%.

And you keep forgetting that the total supply of wealth is not fixed.  As the population rises, everyone's wealth doesn't go down.

Quote:

qman said:
Ecstatic is stuck in some form of an economic fantasyland that has warped his whole view of the world.

Talk about being naïve, it would expect this worldview from someone in High School or early years in college, not a full aged adult. :lol:



No, actually that'd be you who is stuck in some form of economic fantasyland, as clearly shown above.  You so DESPARATELY want to keep immigrants out that you play a game of make believe to justify your hatred towards them.  You've NEVER empirically shown that immigrants significantly hurt the US.




I'm not denying the massive disproportional amount of wealth that currently exists today, my point it's tied up in over-inflated assets prices such as real estate, cash, stocks and bonds. That's perceived wealth that isn't being used for consumption, that's a huge different from the peasants spending it in a matter of hours. 

This isn't about immigrants, it's about believing there's unlimited wealth to extract from the wealthy, so much so that there's enough for all US citizens PLUS tens of millions of poor migrants, that's pure economic fantasyland.

The US and most of the world is in massive debt at every level of government, business and personal. We are not taxing our way of this mess, at this point our current form of consumption is not even sustainable for much longer. But no, let's invite more poor people in the US/EU and hope and pray we can afford it some day. :facepalm:

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24829667 - 12/06/17 10:38 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
It's a sad fact of life: poor people don't create jobs.




:lolwut:
poor people create most of the jobs through consumerism.  How many lunches do you think Mark Cuban and Elon Musk eat every day?  How many haircuts can they get in a year?  If you added all the billionaires together, do you think they could use enough energy to keep PG&E running?  I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but the "job creator" myth is just that, a myth.  Do the Waltons own a business that employs many people around the world?  Sure they do, but there were shops before Walmart, hell, there were shops before the Sears Roebuck catalog, and they weren't all owned by the super-rich.  You think Jeff Bezos is in the business of creating jobs?  Just wait until your packages start getting delivered by drones and self driving trucks.




Dude, it takes capital to make and create jobs...it's that simple. Jobs are created when money is spent or invested, moreover, the wealthy do consume more products and services than the average Joe.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (12/06/17 10:49 AM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 1
    #24829710 - 12/06/17 10:56 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That's a great idea because most African countries don't have minimum wage laws.  :cookiemonster:



Because that's the solution to most of the world living in poverty relative to the Western world. :facepalm: Even you don't believe in such nonsense.



You haven't seen me argue in favor of minimum wage, or show evidence that the places that raised the minimum wage above the national minimum are doing better than the rest of the country?

I think you HAVE seen the evidence and bury your head in the sand to justify your irrational hatred towards immigrants.



I thought we were discussing mandating a minimum wage in the poorest areas of the world to combat their poverty, why are you changing the subject?



Yes, we were discussing mandating a minimum wage in the poorest areas of the world.  I'm saying Africa SHOULD impose a minimum wage (obviously start small and gradually increase it as people become wealthier).

Quote:

qman said:
Since when did we starting debating the merits to US minimum wage mandates and what does that have to do with illegal/legal immigration?



Since you asked why things aren't working out in Africa.

Quote:

qman said:
You're not trying to suggest that any success in the US minimum wage is universal in nature and the rest of the world would have the same outcome, are you?  You do realize it's apples and oranges.



Yes, I am suggesting that.  If it's successful wherever it's been tried, why do you think it wouldn't be successful elsewhere?

Quote:

qman said:
I'm not denying the massive disproportional amount of wealth that currently exists today, my point it's tied up in over-inflated assets prices such as real estate, cash, stocks and bonds. That's perceived wealth that isn't being used for consumption, that's a huge different from the peasants spending it in a matter of hours.



If "peasants" got real estate, cash, stocks, and bonds, they could liquidate it to spend on the economy.

Quote:

qman said:
This isn't about immigrants, it's about believing there's unlimited wealth to extract from the wealthy, so much so that there's enough for all US citizens PLUS tens of millions of poor migrants, that's pure economic fantasyland.



I just showed you chart of how extremely little it would take to DOUBLE the wealth of the bottom 50%.  It's not fantasy, it's looking at real data rather than make believing.

Quote:

qman said:
The US and most of the world is in massive debt at every level of government, business and personal. We are not taxing our way of this mess, at this point our current form of consumption is not even sustainable for much longer.



But we can and should tax our way out of debt.  Democrats get this which is why debt/gdp always goes down under Democratic presidents:



You don't seem to get that taxes reduce the deficit.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24829721 - 12/06/17 11:03 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
poor people create most of the jobs through consumerism.  How many lunches do you think Mark Cuban and Elon Musk eat every day?  How many haircuts can they get in a year?



Dude, it takes capital to make and create jobs...it's that simple. Jobs are created when money is spent or invested, moreover, the wealthy do consume more products and services than the average Joe.



You missed balls' argument.  How many restaurants would there be if the middle class didn't go out to eat?  FAR LESS because they wouldn't be putting any capital into the restaurants.  How many PlayStations would be sold if the middle class didn't buy them?  FAR less (just a few of MANY examples of how the middle class create jobs).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #24829735 - 12/06/17 11:10 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

All the capital in the world wouldn't help you if you didn't have customers to buy shit.  It takes customers to make and create jobs...it's that simple.
But it isn't that simple for a number of reasons, one of which is the concentration of capital into a small number of hands.  Since qman brought up africa, we'll go ahead and examine the difference between africa and china in the colonial era and today.  both places were relatively primitive compared to the west.  The big difference was in how each was used by the colonial powers.  The west mostly wanted to exploit the far east as a consumer base(think opium wars), and that plan is still in motion.  Africa was mostly exploited for natural resources, and that plan is still in motion.  Given that context, Is it a surprise that africa is run-down and full of nations that have a hard time governing themselves and managing their resources in a positive way for their citizens while china is rapidly expanding it's consumer (middle) class?  Not to me.  Seems like an continuation of policies that have been in place for more than a century.  This is why it feels silly to me when people want to try and brush off history as irrelevent to the issues of the day.  The present doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It is the culmination of policies from the past, and those policies sometimes cast a shadow so big that it is hard to even know that you're under their umbrella, let alone find your way into the light.


--------------------


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24829753 - 12/06/17 11:22 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Of course there is interdependance. Could consumers buy PlayStations without the initial capital into Sony? You don't think the rich are not consumers? They consume more!

I should have qualified my claim by saying" The poor do not create jobs as much as the rich" I will agree that was vague but people with money, create more jobs then those who don't.

Edited by SirTripAlot (12/06/17 11:23 AM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24829783 - 12/06/17 11:40 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Could consumers buy PlayStations without the initial capital into Sony?



Would Sony have the capital to build Playstations if they didnt' raise capital by selling other products to consumers?

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I should have qualified my claim by saying" The poor do not create jobs as much as the rich" I will agree that was vague but people with money, create more jobs then those who don't.



Yes, of course the rich spend more.  But the more money that goes to the working class, the more they spend on the economy.

If immigrants are paid a decent wage, they can go out to restaurants, buy Playstations, etc. and contribute to the economy.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot] * 2
    #24829937 - 12/06/17 01:03 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Of course there is interdependance. Could consumers buy PlayStations without the initial capital into Sony? You don't think the rich are not consumers? They consume more!

I should have qualified my claim by saying" The poor do not create jobs as much as the rich" I will agree that was vague but people with money, create more jobs then those who don't.




what does rich mean to you?
who is a person that has money, and who is a person that doesn't?  I'm not really talking about a guy that owns a million dollar house.  They're still regular schlubs as far as I'm concerned.

In any event, let's look at your claim that the rich consume more than joe six-pack and how that relates to job creation.  You may or may not be correct in absolute dollar terms, but does that actually translate into employment for the masses?
Trump and his circle of friends buy private planes.  Airplanes are very expensive.  In terms of dollars, the guy that buys 1 gulfstream probably spends more money than the average american will make in a lifetime in a single transaction, but building and selling private jets doesn't employ nearly as many or as many kinds of people as the commercial airline industry does.  Boats are another extreme example.  Private yachts are very expensive, but cruiseliners  and their suppliers employ far more people than a relative handful of billionaires ever could.  Any industry that primarily serves the general public will contribute more to employment and the economy in general than industries that cater primarily to the elite.

You are correct in that without startup capital, it doesn't matter how good an idea you have or how many jobs you could create.  You've actually identified one of the glaring issues with our economic system.  Very wealthy people have a near-monopoly on capital at this point, but I find it hard to believe that they have a similar near-monopoly on good ideas.  We've hitched ourselves to a gilded ball and chain that is hindering our progress as a society.


--------------------


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #24829986 - 12/06/17 01:20 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Exactly.  :thumbup:

And what's better for the economy?  Ten rich guys goings out to eat $1000 dinner, or 1,000 middle class guys going out to eat a $10 dinner?  I'd argue the latter, as it requires more restaurants, more servers, more cooks...

And even if you think both examples above are equal for the economy, I'd definitely argue that 1,000 people being able to afford going to go out is better than only 10 people being able to afford it.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24830025 - 12/06/17 01:44 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

In my opinion, yes they would have the capital; at one point there was venture capital that started Sony PlayStation before Joe six pack purchased one unit. We could also argue the chicken and the egg:smirk:

As far as the middle class spending habits, do you have any source that confirm that it would be spent, rather then saved or 401ked?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24830039 - 12/06/17 01:55 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

@bal

Your right, rich can be an ambiguous term, most people above me are rich:blush:...as I my only source of income is my VA disability. For me, 150,000 is "rich"

Regarding your point about the rich Monopoly of start up capital. How would you fix this? I would think if one were to eliminate the risk of startup capital (via subsidy) this could have the potential for altering competition.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24830044 - 12/06/17 01:57 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, the start-up money generally comes from banks.  Do you know where banks have been getting the bulk of their start-up money since the Bank of England was chartered some 300-ish years ago? 

In the U.S. the federal government contributed significantly to the very existence of many industries such as coal, steel, oil, timber, railroads, agriculture, and pretty much anything else you can think of, by ceding land to anyone that would fence and improve it during the manifest destiny days.  It worked out great for many folks and then we stopped, giving those people a permanent, publicly subsidized advantage over everyone else to come after.


--------------------


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24830181 - 12/06/17 03:19 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Correct me if I am wrong; Are you stating that the economy would be better if the government would hand out more land(or insert other source) to the populace? Or are you for taking those said industries, apart?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24830191 - 12/06/17 03:30 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

it doesn't have to be either.  Any method of more fairly distributing wealth will lead to more jobs through more demand.  In addition, giving access to capital (in whatever form, including land) to the public allows for a much greater talent pool to get to work on creating those jobs that everyone raves about.


--------------------


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24830229 - 12/06/17 03:48 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
As far as the middle class spending habits, do you have any source that confirm that it would be spent, rather then saved or 401ked?



This website references a lot of studies that show the rich save more than the poor:

Do the Rich Save More?

I think it makes sense, because the less money you have, the harder it is to save anything because you have spend a larger fraction of your income on essentials.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24830295 - 12/06/17 04:22 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Which begs the question, if the middle class received more money, would it be spent in the economy or saved?:shrug:


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Invisiblerelic
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24830336 - 12/06/17 04:47 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Which begs the question, if the middle class received more money, would it be spent in the economy or saved?:shrug:




a portion of this article was devoted specifically to the spending of tax cuts by the wealthy VS the middle class, but it had some relevant info for your question:

Quote:

Tax Cuts and the Economy

It's a common belief that reducing marginal tax rates would spur economic growth...

However, studies have shown that this isn't necessarily true. Data collected over 25 years by the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that high income earners spend much less for every tax dollar saved, than low income earners — 86 cents versus 48 cents respectively. Further, a 65-year study by the Congressional Research Service showed that economic growth was not correlated with changes in the top marginal tax and capital gains rate. In other words, economic growth is largely unaffected by how much tax the wealthy pay. Growth is more likely to spur if lower income earners get a tax cut.





the two studies they reference are hotlinked in the article.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #24830362 - 12/06/17 05:10 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
This website references a lot of studies that show the rich save more than the poor:

Do the Rich Save More?



Which begs the question, if the middle class received more money, would it be spent in the economy or saved?:shrug:



How is that even a question?  If the rich save more money, then of course giving the middle class more would lead to more spending.

relic's post further confirms this.  :thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlineviktor
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #24830371 - 12/06/17 05:17 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Given that context, Is it a surprise that africa is run-down and full of nations that have a hard time governing themselves and managing their resources in a positive way for their citizens while china is rapidly expanding it's consumer (middle) class?  Not to me.  Seems like an continuation of policies that have been in place for more than a century.




Average Chinese IQ = 103
Average Sub-Saharan African IQ = 72

That's the difference. Blaming the West doesn't need to come into it at all.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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