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WAN said:

Prove that this is due to issues of poverty and alienation.

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The visible differences of children of immigrants cannot be considered an adequate measure of their integration; after all, the few who do wear jellabas or headscarves may actually be better integrated in social and political terms than their parents, who may dress in a European fashion but may socialize exclusively with fellow immigrants and barely speak French. Finally, the desire to integrate in French society is something of a double paradox: not only have most beurs always lived in France, but because of racism and discrimination many also have been denied the very opportunities—in terms of good jobs and well-situated housing, for example—that would help them integrate. That reinforces and perpetuates a vicious cycle of failure and exclusion. Social scientists and politicians, therefore, should employ the word “integration” with caution. Here, it is used to describe the degree of difference between the Muslim community and the rest of the French population with regard to the main economic, social, and political indicators, as well as the process by which (and the extent to which) those differences are being reduced.

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Like most immigrants in industrialized countries, the Muslims who came to France during the second half of the twentieth century have endured lasting economic and social hardships. They first had low-level jobs, predominantly in the industrial sector, when they arrived in the 1960s and early 1970s. Their situation became more difficult as the abundant, stable jobs of the postwar boom disappeared in the economic downturn of the 1970s and 1980s. That helps explain why the economic and social indicators for this population have been so unfavorable. Immigrants have experienced higher unemployment than the rest of the population; a higher incidence of accidents on the job; housing problems, such as being isolated in large, highdensity housing projects on the outskirts of big cities that were slowly deserted by native French families; problems at school; and high levels of crime and unrest. Those problems have been reinforced by the economic situation in France, especially the stagnant job market, and they failed to
improve in the 1990s. Meanwhile negative stereotypes and racism have continued to take their toll. from here

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Why are French Muslims so isolated?
At the heart of the issue is laïcité, the principle that church and state must be completely separate, with no religious expression in the country's government, judiciary, or schools. Laïcité dates to the late 19th century and was originally directed at keeping the influence of the Catholic Church out of government. But many Muslims feel that secularism is now being used to attack Islam. In 2004, there was an uproar when lawmakers banned veils and other religious symbols in the classroom. In 2011, France became the first European country to ban women from covering their face in public with a niqab or burqa.

Why else do Muslims feel alienated?
Many believe that the French, with their powerful sense of national and cultural identity, have never truly accepted Muslims — even those who are born in France. "How am I supposed to feel French when people always describe me as a Frenchman of Algerian origin?" asks French-born writer Nadir Dendoune. A 2010 Stanford University study found that a Christian job applicant of African heritage was two and a half times more likely to be asked for an interview than an equally qualified Muslim with African roots. Perhaps most damaging, though, is the rise of the far right. Marine Le Pen, leader of the National Front party, once compared France's rising Muslim population to the Nazi occupation — and she's currently leading polls for the 2017 presidential election. from here

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The unemployment rate of populations of immigrant origin is generally twice the rate of the overall population, and that rate is even higher among youth of North African origin

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WAN said:
^Native people should have the right to decide who they want emigrate into their countries.

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burgerbrain said:

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WAN said:
^Native people should have the right to decide who they want emigrate into their countries.

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Heheh, libs bring up obscure things from a less civilized world to prove points like "We should allow open borders" It's fucking hilarious

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Tipote said:

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qman said:

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WAN said:
Also, I find all the discussion about what percentage of Muslim immigrants is assimilating to be slightly pointless.  Even if they were ALL assimilating, it still doesn't change the fact that most native French (or Brits, or Germans, whatever) don't want them.  These foreigners were thrust upon them and they have every right to be upset by it.

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That's very true, they turn into social service leeches that drain the system dry as the commit a massive disproportional amount of crime, there's no point of having them.

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by that token, i imagine you would support palestine deporting all israeli jews? you would be against the formation of the state of israel in the first place?  and it would be reasonable for all immigrants to the Americas to leave because the native americans didnt want them there?

People are citizens, that is that.

Most people in the UK are not natives. The saxons, the vikings, the romans, the normans, the french huguenots?? these populations came both naturally and peacefully and through conquest.

being prejudice doesnt mean you can decide "native" people have the vote to kick other people out.

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WAN said:
^Native people should have the right to decide who they want emigrate into their countries.

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qman said:

"because the native americans didn't want them there?"

Come on, there wasn't even a country to kick them out of in the first place, they lost the land in a fight, so be it.

Either way, the natives of a COUNTRY decide who comes and who goes, if you want to call that prejudice that's fine, it's their choice to prejudge!!

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Tipote said:

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WAN said:

Prove that this is due to issues of poverty and alienation.

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well it is a fact that the link between poverty and crime are well established

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

The FBI statistics show that blacks commit 38% of violent crimes.

Now, let's look at the numbers:

27% of blacks live in poverty
10% of whites live in poverty
13% of the population is black
38% of violent crimes are committed by blacks

That means that blacks are 2.7 times more likely to live in poverty (27%/10%) than whites, and 2.9 times more likely to commit a violent crime (38%/13%), meaning violent crime is almost perfectly correlated to poverty level.  Which is what I suspected all along.

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LOL "Black people commit 38% of all violent crime BECAUSE they're poor" WAAAAAH LOL

LOL So according to this liberal groupthink "Let's pay black people welfare so they can stop committing violent crime"

You said yourself that blacks make up 13% of the population but perform 38% of all violent crime. Very interesting statistic that you brought up- maybe you can tell that one to the BLM people. By the way, this does not equate to blacks being only 2.9 times more likely to commit a violent crime- Your math is wrong again per usual.

Racial Demographics in the USA:
223,553,265 White & Hispanic people. This group commits 58.4% of violent crime.
38,929,319 Black people. This group commits 38.7% of violent crime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

I'm not sure how you can attribute that massive violent crime rate to "poverty level" considering Hispanics, or even Whites in Appalachia, are equally as poor but perform much less violent crime.

Here are some graphs on the subject-Violent crime has nothing to do with poverty as you can see (they do not even correlate). You're not very good at debate are you?

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Tipote said:
those sound like prison population statistics not actually crimes being commited. I'm not disputing that muslims are overrepresented in prisons.

the fact is that the issue in the UK is under investigation. Being muslim is not a causal factor in crime.

the link you show also has on its source the data that if a black person and a white person are arrested for a sexual offence, the black person is 50% more likely to go down for sexual assault. but youre probably going to say that its just black culture, they are just like that. same for muslims then? muslims can be black, arab, asian etc. 

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Muslims in prison are far from being a homogeneous group. Some were born into Muslim families, and others have converted. 41% are Asian, 31% are black, 14% are white  and 8% are mixed

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the same source shows that white people actually are the main group being arrested ( i know some white people can be muslim too) making up 80% of arrests.

again with what youre saying about italy... you seem to just change your argument to be about illegal aliens when we are talking about muslims. make up your mind or just change your argument to being about "others".

i think muslims make up 70% of the prison population in France when they make up about 8% of the population. Certainly in France they don't take statistics based on religion, it is based on country of origin though the stats are near enough to show the discrepency.
In France there is much more discrimination, alienation and much higher poverty rates therefore more crime and radicalisation.  Prisons are a big radicalisation ground and also many people covert within prison for many reasons.

generally there is more discrimination against blacks in the UK and very much in the US, compared to police discrimination against muslims. Generally speaking,  there are good relations between muslims and the police in the UK though islamophobic sentiments have risen drastically (islamophobic crime has increased 170% in the last year).
  Sometimes people move to the UK because perhaps their country of origin had terrible education, poverty or had restrictions for women studying.

This is an issue of poverty and education and alienation. If you are born into poverty, it is less likely you can get out of poverty. Poverty is self reinforcing and prison breeds a culture of crime and poverty.

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Poverty
According to analysis based on the 2001 census, Muslims in the United Kingdom face poor standards of housing, poorer levels of education and are more vulnerable to long-term illness,[61] and that Muslims in the UK had the highest rate of unemployment, the poorest health, the most disability and fewest educational qualifications among religious groups.[62] The figures were, to some extent, explained by the fact that Muslims were the least well-established group, having the youngest age profile.[62]
Conversely, there are estimated to be around 10,000 British Muslim millionaires.[63] There is a growing substantial British Muslim business community, led by multi-millionaires such as Sir Anwar Pervez.
Education
Approximately one-third of Muslims have no qualifications, the highest of any religious group, whilst approximately a quarter of Christians and Sikhs have no qualifications.[65] However, approximately 53% of British Muslim youth choose to attend university.[66] This is higher than the figure for Christians (45%) and the non-religious (32%).[66]
There are around 140 Muslim faith schools in the UK, twelve of them being state-funded.[67] These schools regularly outperform those of other faiths. For example, in 2008, 86.5% of pupils attending Muslim schools achieved five GCSEs, compared to a figure of 72.8% of Roman Catholic schools and 64.5% of secular schools. here

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this suggests that things are bad but getting better fast with better educational attainment and wealth.

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The research incorporated data from a ‘Multiple Deprivation Index’, a ten-tier classification system designed to map socio-economic deprivation in the UK. While there were no discernible differences between Muslim and Christian households in each tier (or decile) there were marked differences in the numbers of Muslim and Christian households contained within areas of disadvantage. Two thirds of Muslim households (66.2%) were distributed among deciles containing the most deprivation and the highest levels of reported household crime.

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besides poverty crime alienation and discrimination.. perhaps its due to age differences. The muslim population in the UK at least tends to be younger. young people are mor elikely to commit crime.

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In 2010, the then Chief Inspector of Prisons, Dame Anne Owers, published a report on Muslims in jail, in which she linked the growth in numbers to the age and socio-economic profiles of the Muslim population in general.

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Tipote said:

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WAN said:
^Native people should have the right to decide who they want emigrate into their countries.

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so how are you going to define native? what about all the mixes of people?
should the celts, who are by no means pure celt any more, get to decide that most of the UK will be deported. To where? to become stateless?
would you support native americans right to deport everyone in the US?

How will natives decide who can and cannot come? it is ok just to say this blanket (over) 10% of the global population cant come to a country because of something as arbitary as religion?

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qman said:

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Tipote said:
those sound like prison population statistics not actually crimes being commited. I'm not disputing that muslims are overrepresented in prisons.

the fact is that the issue in the UK is under investigation. Being muslim is not a causal factor in crime.

the link you show also has on its source the data that if a black person and a white person are arrested for a sexual offence, the black person is 50% more likely to go down for sexual assault. but youre probably going to say that its just black culture, they are just like that. same for muslims then? muslims can be black, arab, asian etc. 

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Muslims in prison are far from being a homogeneous group. Some were born into Muslim families, and others have converted. 41% are Asian, 31% are black, 14% are white  and 8% are mixed

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the same source shows that white people actually are the main group being arrested ( i know some white people can be muslim too) making up 80% of arrests.

again with what youre saying about italy... you seem to just change your argument to be about illegal aliens when we are talking about muslims. make up your mind or just change your argument to being about "others".

i think muslims make up 70% of the prison population in France when they make up about 8% of the population. Certainly in France they don't take statistics based on religion, it is based on country of origin though the stats are near enough to show the discrepency.
In France there is much more discrimination, alienation and much higher poverty rates therefore more crime and radicalisation.  Prisons are a big radicalisation ground and also many people covert within prison for many reasons.

generally there is more discrimination against blacks in the UK and very much in the US, compared to police discrimination against muslims. Generally speaking,  there are good relations between muslims and the police in the UK though islamophobic sentiments have risen drastically (islamophobic crime has increased 170% in the last year).
  Sometimes people move to the UK because perhaps their country of origin had terrible education, poverty or had restrictions for women studying.

This is an issue of poverty and education and alienation. If you are born into poverty, it is less likely you can get out of poverty. Poverty is self reinforcing and prison breeds a culture of crime and poverty.

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Poverty
According to analysis based on the 2001 census, Muslims in the United Kingdom face poor standards of housing, poorer levels of education and are more vulnerable to long-term illness,[61] and that Muslims in the UK had the highest rate of unemployment, the poorest health, the most disability and fewest educational qualifications among religious groups.[62] The figures were, to some extent, explained by the fact that Muslims were the least well-established group, having the youngest age profile.[62]
Conversely, there are estimated to be around 10,000 British Muslim millionaires.[63] There is a growing substantial British Muslim business community, led by multi-millionaires such as Sir Anwar Pervez.
Education
Approximately one-third of Muslims have no qualifications, the highest of any religious group, whilst approximately a quarter of Christians and Sikhs have no qualifications.[65] However, approximately 53% of British Muslim youth choose to attend university.[66] This is higher than the figure for Christians (45%) and the non-religious (32%).[66]
There are around 140 Muslim faith schools in the UK, twelve of them being state-funded.[67] These schools regularly outperform those of other faiths. For example, in 2008, 86.5% of pupils attending Muslim schools achieved five GCSEs, compared to a figure of 72.8% of Roman Catholic schools and 64.5% of secular schools. here

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this suggests that things are bad but getting better fast with better educational attainment and wealth.

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The research incorporated data from a ‘Multiple Deprivation Index’, a ten-tier classification system designed to map socio-economic deprivation in the UK. While there were no discernible differences between Muslim and Christian households in each tier (or decile) there were marked differences in the numbers of Muslim and Christian households contained within areas of disadvantage. Two thirds of Muslim households (66.2%) were distributed among deciles containing the most deprivation and the highest levels of reported household crime.

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besides poverty crime alienation and discrimination.. perhaps its due to age differences. The muslim population in the UK at least tends to be younger. young people are mor elikely to commit crime.

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In 2010, the then Chief Inspector of Prisons, Dame Anne Owers, published a report on Muslims in jail, in which she linked the growth in numbers to the age and socio-economic profiles of the Muslim population in general.

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Most poor people have children they can't afford, who's fault is that?  Poverty is also based on behavior, do blacks and Muslims have children they can't afford more than the native population?  Yes. 

The more primitive the culture the more likely the people of that culture have children they can't afford, resorting to crime is also the result of poor decision making, it isn't always whitey's fault.

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WAN said:
You don't think citizens of a nation should get to decide who can and who cannot come into their country?

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Enlil said:

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WAN said:
You don't think citizens of a nation should get to decide who can and who cannot come into their country?

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In our nation, they always have decided that, and they always will.

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Enlil said:
The citizens choose their representatives.  If the citizens wanted no immigration, there would be no immigration.

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WAN said:

Also, maybe the reason these groups are in poverty is because they are stupid, lazy, un-motivated, un-industrious...etc etc.  In other words, their genes suck, so they suck.

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WAN said:

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Enlil said:
The citizens choose their representatives.  If the citizens wanted no immigration, there would be no immigration.

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I heard that a lot of law-makers go against the will and wishes of their voters.

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WAN said:
The natives refers to all of the citizens of a country.  I don't know why you have a problem with what I said.  What I suggested was very reasonable.  You don't think citizens of a nation should get to decide who can and who cannot come into their country?  If some people from a remote country (the Celts from your example.  I don't even have an idea what country they are) got an influx of people from some other country a long time ago, this suddenly means citizens of all nations should just open their borders wide-open and just accept anybody who wants to come?

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Tipote said:

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WAN said:

Also, maybe the reason these groups are in poverty is because they are stupid, lazy, un-motivated, un-industrious...etc etc.  In other words, their genes suck, so they suck.

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ahh here we go, the inevitable conclusion of those who cant understand psychology of exclusion, the effects of poverty etc

they are just like that? are you going to back that up at all or just fall back on blind prejudice?

aka the definition of racism. just an easy explanation isnt it? other religions and cultures dont have lazy people etc etc etc?

i also showed that muslims in the uk are doing poorly at school generally now but that educational attainment is increasing very quickly. muslim students generally speaking have a stronger family structure and a big focus is put on education. Many doctors in the UK are muslim. There are many millionaires who are muslim in the UK - not necessarily from oil wealth.

so are you saying that all muslims have the same genes? there is like a muslim gene?

tell us more....


btw you know you dont always have to quote my wall of text every time you respond to me, it says at the top of the message who you are responding to.

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