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Offlinecircastes
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Rise of the far-right in France and Europe * 4
    #22628766 - 12/08/15 07:59 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-politics-idUKKBN0TO0SB20151206

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-politics-analysis-idUKKBN0TQ25920151207

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-politics-idUKKBN0TQ0VB20151207

Some interesting articles to read on the topic.

Pretty predictable outcome given the recent terrorist attacks and the unemployment and immigration disillusionment.

Sane, insane?

Something inbetween?

My 2c: Europe is for Europeans, multiculturalism is for nations founded on immigration, like Australia, U.S. & Canada. :justdontknow:


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OfflineGoldenEye
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: circastes] * 1
    #22628782 - 12/08/15 08:17 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

France's National Front, Belguim's Flemish Block, the Netherlands' Party for Freedom...

They're all the same, they get a bit of votes, but no other party considers forming a coalition with them. They are pretty much always excluded from the government and stuck in the opposition role.

I'd like to think we're sane enough to keep it that way.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: GoldenEye] * 4
    #22628847 - 12/08/15 08:47 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

your 2c is fascist.

multiculturalism for everywhere.

smash the borders.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay] * 1
    #22628945 - 12/08/15 09:47 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
your 2c is fascist.

multiculturalism for everywhere.

smash the borders.




What's the point of immigration?

America, for all practical purposes has open boarders, we have an oversupply of labor and shit wages, is that a GOOD thing?


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22629081 - 12/08/15 10:32 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

One thing I don't like about the far-right is the apparent homophobia, seems misguided. I can't see anything wrong with gay people or marriage. I think cultures and ways of life should be supported in their attempts to preserve themselves however, especially if they have worked so well and been hard-won. I also despise the proliferation of any religion; a total pie-in-the-sky return to 800AD or so is on the cards unless the far-right makes it to the top in Europe, it would seem.

What is multiculturalism if the parent culture disappears?

I'm not that informed though, feel free to inform me of why I should think about the left instead.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: circastes] * 3
    #22629103 - 12/08/15 10:42 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Within 5 years they'll be in power in Europe. People are sick of muslim immigrants and they're sick of politicians who won't do what they want. No one wants these immigrants and the politicians keep bringing them in. If the nationalist groups don't get power through electoral means it will lead to civil war. When a government no longer follows the will of the people the people have the right to replace it. I hope that comes through elections instead of civil war, but its coming either peacefully or through bloody civil war.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: airclay] * 4
    #22629169 - 12/08/15 11:11 AM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:


multiculturalism for everywhere.

smash the borders.




Multiculturalism is a failure in the US and EU, you can't mix primitive people into sophisticated cultures.

"smash the borders."

I don't think so, in fact the trend is going to be walls and enforcing the border.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22630185 - 12/08/15 04:27 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

airclay said:
your 2c is fascist.

multiculturalism for everywhere.

smash the borders.




What's the point of immigration?

America, for all practical purposes has open boarders, we have an oversupply of labor and shit wages, is that a GOOD thing?




Amerikkka doesn't have anything close to open borders based on the fact that you don't think they're tight enough


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Ellis Dee] * 2
    #22630187 - 12/08/15 04:28 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Within 5 years they'll be in power in Europe. People are sick of muslim immigrants and they're sick of politicians who won't do what they want. No one wants these immigrants and the politicians keep bringing them in. If the nationalist groups don't get power through electoral means it will lead to civil war. When a government no longer follows the will of the people the people have the right to replace it. I hope that comes through elections instead of civil war, but its coming either peacefully or through bloody civil war.





they will be in power in europe? this is the same ignorant stuff that the far right in europe are propagating. Fascism is on the rise in europe, gladly assisted by these groups.

the national front in france helped the nazis occupy france and turned in resistance fighters for torture and executions, in exchange for autonomy in the south. Patriots? they rip france apart again.

people are not sick of muslim immigrants in europe. ignorance and the domination of the right wing press makes simple people get their opinions from newspapers with no analytical thought.

when ill informed people act in reactionary ways without much consideration of Europes history, the same abuses can come again. history can repeat itself. fascism is back.

France fell so easily during the war because the national front was in power and welcomed fascist expansion.


and your reuters articles are true about how the parties united against Marine's father but she has been somewhat smarter to moderate some of the language to enter the mainstream. she kicked her father out of the party because he said that the concentration camps were a minor detail of history, he supported the Nazis. By sidelining some of these groups, she has really gained in the mainstream by being a "moderate face" of an extremist party. It helps that she is a woman. Not only that but the socialist party in france has been a disaster and left open the doors for this kind of ignorant rhetoric. the divisions in the parties and the tendency of the conservatives to support policies strongly against immigrants has set the stage for Le FN. Sarkozy is a corrupt bastard, as are most of the high ranking politicians in france. As a favour to the far right, sarkozy deported thousands of gypsies.

THe knee jerk reactions from things like the Paris attacks keeps the FN smiling as they know people will just go for their hateful rhetoric. Unfortunately, France is a rather xenophobic country with a bloody past. I am French and i know that this does not represent all French, many French are very angry about this but this quote made my journalists in europe is very true..

Quote:


Un con qui vote aura toujours plus de poids que deux intellectuels qui s'abstiennent




(an idiot who votes will always have more weight than two intellectuals who abstain)

Many people did not even go and vote in the first round of elections. This is a tragedy and a sign indicative of people feeling alienated from the political system.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 5
    #22630191 - 12/08/15 04:30 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

airclay said:


multiculturalism for everywhere.

smash the borders.




Multiculturalism is a failure in the US and EU, you can't mix primitive people into sophisticated cultures.

"smash the borders."

I don't think so, in fact the trend is going to be walls and enforcing the border.




primative and sophisticated cultures? this is called orientalism

Quote:

Since the publication of Edward Said's Orientalism in 1978, however, much academic discourse has used the term "Orientalism" in reference to a patronizing Western attitude towards Middle Eastern, Asian and North African societies. In Said's analysis, the West essentializes these societies as static and undeveloped—thereby fabricating a view of Oriental culture that can be studied, depicted, and reproduced. Implicit in this fabrication, writes Said, is the idea that Western society is developed, rational, flexible, and superior




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism


a simplistic portrayal of the "other" that just blinds those in the so called "sophisticated" cultures to their own savagery.


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Edited by Tipote (12/08/15 04:50 PM)


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: circastes] * 5
    #22630231 - 12/08/15 04:41 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-politics-idUKKBN0TO0SB20151206

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-politics-analysis-idUKKBN0TQ25920151207

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-politics-idUKKBN0TQ0VB20151207

Some interesting articles to read on the topic.

Pretty predictable outcome given the recent terrorist attacks and the unemployment and immigration disillusionment.

Sane, insane?

Something inbetween?

My 2c: Europe is for Europeans, multiculturalism is for nations founded on immigration, like Australia, U.S. & Canada. :justdontknow:





multiculturalism is for all countries. National identity is always in flux, the only countries that have been taken over by immigration are places like you mentioned. That is colonial settlement rather than just multiculturalism. Look what happened in Aus with trying to breed the aboriginal out of the aboriginals.. look at the sidelining of indigenous communities in all of the communities taken over by colonial expansion. In Europe we do not hate muslims on the whole. The papers say that immigration is uncontrolled even in the years when net immigration is negative. The papers say 20% of muslims support Daesh and then they print a correction... Most uneducated people in europe come out with this stuff - "the foreigners are coming and taking our jobs" or "muslims want to kill us" because they read it in the Murdoch press. The poor are given a scapegoat to blame when it is economic policy that is at fault.

Nationalism will be resisted in Europe but it is no doubt on the rise. It is how we react to world events that shows how fast this will happen. Europe shifts to the far right , to fascism because Daesh is pushing them there and they go gladly. Fascism breeds fascism.

I'm sure the FN want more terrorist attacks because it only supports them. We should resist these knee jerk reactions. This is INSANE







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Edited by Tipote (12/08/15 05:08 PM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote] * 2
    #22630375 - 12/08/15 05:26 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
Quote:

Ellis Dee said:
Within 5 years they'll be in power in Europe. People are sick of muslim immigrants and they're sick of politicians who won't do what they want. No one wants these immigrants and the politicians keep bringing them in. If the nationalist groups don't get power through electoral means it will lead to civil war. When a government no longer follows the will of the people the people have the right to replace it. I hope that comes through elections instead of civil war, but its coming either peacefully or through bloody civil war.





they will be in power in europe? this is the same ignorant stuff that the far right in europe are propagating. Fascism is on the rise in europe, gladly assisted by these groups.

the national front in france helped the nazis occupy france and turned in resistance fighters for torture and executions, in exchange for autonomy in the south. Patriots? they rip france apart again.

people are not sick of muslim immigrants in europe. ignorance and the domination of the right wing press makes simple people get their opinions from newspapers with no analytical thought.

when ill informed people act in reactionary ways without much consideration of Europes history, the same abuses can come again. history can repeat itself. fascism is back.

France fell so easily during the war because the national front was in power and welcomed fascist expansion.


and your reuters articles are true about how the parties united against Marine's father but she has been somewhat smarter to moderate some of the language to enter the mainstream. she kicked her father out of the party because he said that the concentration camps were a minor detail of history, he supported the Nazis. By sidelining some of these groups, she has really gained in the mainstream by being a "moderate face" of an extremist party. It helps that she is a woman. Not only that but the socialist party in france has been a disaster and left open the doors for this kind of ignorant rhetoric. the divisions in the parties and the tendency of the conservatives to support policies strongly against immigrants has set the stage for Le FN. Sarkozy is a corrupt bastard, as are most of the high ranking politicians in france. As a favour to the far right, sarkozy deported thousands of gypsies.

THe knee jerk reactions from things like the Paris attacks keeps the FN smiling as they know people will just go for their hateful rhetoric. Unfortunately, France is a rather xenophobic country with a bloody past. I am French and i know that this does not represent all French, many French are very angry about this but this quote made my journalists in europe is very true..

Quote:


Un con qui vote aura toujours plus de poids que deux intellectuels qui s'abstiennent




(an idiot who votes will always have more weight than two intellectuals who abstain)

Many people did not even go and vote in the first round of elections. This is a tragedy and a sign indicative of people feeling alienated from the political system.




"people are not sick of muslim immigrants in Europe"

Yes they are, they didn't have a say for allowing that group of people to stay in their country. 

Why would the native population want a group of foreigners that commit a massive disproportional amount of crime, refuse to assimilate into European culture and are massive leeches on the social services?  They would be more than happy to see the vast majority of them gone tomorrow.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman]
    #22630475 - 12/08/15 05:56 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Public opinion is a lose/lose argument


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: qman] * 5
    #22630547 - 12/08/15 06:17 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"people are not sick of muslim immigrants in Europe"

Yes they are, they didn't have a say for allowing that group of people to stay in their country. 

Why would the native population want a group of foreigners that commit a massive disproportional amount of crime, refuse to assimilate into European culture and are massive leeches on the social services?  They would be more than happy to see the vast majority of them gone tomorrow.





absolutely, some people are but you are missing my point that this is from ignorant fear mongering and prejudice against the "other". Just as you said...

Quote:

you can't mix primitive people into sophisticated cultures.




this shows you take that very simplistic, very old view which does not represent reality, rather just ignorant opinions.

muslims are well integrated into European countries on the whole, where there are problems this comes from ghettoisation, prejudice and poverty which breeds a culture of crime. This happens to all disenfranchised groups. if you have a muslim name, you are more likely to not get the job you apply for. prejudice encourages these discrepencies. these gaps are shown to be the case for second generation people who have no problem with the language. integration is a two way street and organisation is key. Language issues are a problem. So that is something that should be tackled. Rather than saying, they can't speak english so kick them out, maybe ask why second generation muslims who speak the language perfectly and often feel British/French/German before their families country of origin, still are discriminated against in the job market? I imagine you would think its because they are from a primitive culture...which gave us geometry, algebra, advances in sciences etc..  Language classes are important, absolutely, just as other means of integration. Ghettoisation does not provide the conditions for smooth integration to happen. Nor does hate speech against all muslims based on extremist activities of a few.


Muslims fought for Britain in WW2, they still fight for Britain and other European countries today, they are in police, they run small businesses, they are poets, writers, journalists, diplomats, lawyers, doctors, dentists, businessmen, boxers, politicians, lords in the house of lords....
or are we just going to ignore them? Most muslims have integrated well but you talk of people being happy if the "majority of them" are gone tomorrow?? As a european i can tell you this is not true. The people that would be happy are those who hate anything foreign and who fall for these lies that muslims are primative.

please see this List of British Muslims in the UK...

many of those commiting terrorist acts are religious noobs/converts/ mentally ill/assholes. every country, every group has them.

also your obsession with "native" populations is weak. The borders of all of Europe have been in flux over thousands of years, all different kinds of groups made up France, England, Germany etc. Actually, the only natives in the UK were the Celtic Britons I would imagine and they had to come from somewhere - "the fucking foreigners.....!" - say a lone tree.  There is a difference between violent conquest and natural population fluctuations through migration. Refugee families that come may just go back to their countries if they weren't being bombed the fuck out of and they had a chance to rebuild in peace.


Edited by Tipote (12/08/15 06:34 PM)


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote]
    #22630745 - 12/08/15 07:03 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

The only thing that does worry me slightly is the disappointment in the system that I notice among more and more of my peers.

They are educated/smart enough to recognise that politicians are for the most part corporate puppets. This causes them to lose faith in their vote and a lot of them even refuse to vote. I feel that this is more common on the left, therefore I fear that this inflates the 'anger' or 'hate' vote by making it relatively common and more powerful.

I think it's time we'd have an election with the majority of votes being blank votes. That would be a statement.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: GoldenEye]
    #22630964 - 12/08/15 08:15 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

yeh i agree, that voter alienation absolutely contributes to all this.

i dont know what the % turn out is these days in the US but in Europe its lucky to be in the 60s. i wonder at what percentage it would have to be for it to be widely accepted its not representative anymore. People are saying it already really but the game goes on.

electoral reform is definitely needed. There should at least be a "none of the above" box, otherwise the spoiled votes are just put down to incompetance rather than a statement. In America, money and politics have to be separated.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote] * 2
    #22630995 - 12/08/15 08:23 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

WE NEED TO GO BACK TO PEOPLE HAVING TO BE PROPERTY OWNERS TO VOTE, OTHERWISE THE POOR JUST VOTE TO STEAL FROM HARDWORKING AMERICANS, ITS THEFT BY BALLOT

***IS THIS POST REPORTABLE?


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: hostileuniverse] * 3
    #22631099 - 12/08/15 08:46 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
WE NEED TO GO BACK TO PEOPLE HAVING TO BE PROPERTY OWNERS TO VOTE, OTHERWISE THE POOR JUST VOTE TO STEAL FROM HARDWORKING AMERICANS, ITS THEFT BY BALLOT

***IS THIS POST REPORTABLE?




LOL

yeh so only rich, predominantly white, people can have the vote? less than 70% of the country? poor people work hard too you know! probably significantly much more than rich people. you just think they are laying around all day?

I thought conservatives are supposed to care about the principles of the founding fathers, of the constitution and all that jazz?

you know trump inherited a shit ton of money? its easier to make money when you already have loads. people born with money act like they worked really hard for it and it was all by themselves.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #22631396 - 12/08/15 09:39 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
Quote:

qman said:
you can't mix primitive people into sophisticated cultures.



this shows you take that very simplistic, very old view which does not represent reality, rather just ignorant opinions.

muslims are well integrated into European countries on the whole

Most muslims have integrated well but you talk of people being happy if the "majority of them" are gone tomorrow?? As a european i can tell you this is not true. The people that would be happy are those who hate anything foreign and who fall for these lies that muslims are primative.



:whathesaid:


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Re: Rise of the far-right in France and Europe [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #22631400 - 12/08/15 09:39 PM (5 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
WE NEED TO GO BACK TO PEOPLE HAVING TO BE PROPERTY OWNERS TO VOTE, OTHERWISE THE POOR JUST VOTE TO STEAL FROM HARDWORKING AMERICANS, ITS THEFT BY BALLOT

***IS THIS POST REPORTABLE?




LOL

yeh so only rich, predominantly white, people can have the vote? less than 70% of the country? poor people work hard too you know! probably significantly much more than rich people. you just think they are laying around all day?

I thought conservatives are supposed to care about the principles of the founding fathers, of the constitution and all that jazz?

you know trump inherited a shit ton of money? its easier to make money when you already have loads. people born with money act like they worked really hard for it and it was all by themselves.



Well said.  :toast:


--------------------
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DoubleBlind - Learn to Grow Mushrooms
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