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InvisibleSwami
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Meant-To-Be-Ness
    #2260219 - 01/21/04 05:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Just got through reading "Blind Courage" about a blind, middle-aged, alcoholic who becomes "born-again" and decides to walk the 2000 mile Appalachian Trail with his seeing-eye dog as a tribute to God.

At one point Irwin is fording a stream with dangerous rapids a few hundred yards away. He slips and is being helplessly carried by the current as he is unable to swim with a 70 lb. backpack on. "Miraculously" his backpack hooks on a submerged branch saving him from being swept into certain injury and possibly being drowned. He flatly states that the branch was not just there "by coincidence".

If this was true that God placed the branch there (as if tree branchs do NOT fall into rivers and streams all over the world) then doesn't that mean that God also caused him to slip on the mossy boulder while crossing?

Doesn't this also go back to the fallacy of ad hoc reasoning? I.E. he only tells the tale BECAUSE he survived.

Many years ago I hiked to upper-Yosemite Falls in Yosemite National Park. At the top, there is an innocuous little stream a few hundred yards from the falls. I was approaching the stream with a friend when we saw an attractive young female slip in the 2 foot-deep stream. She fell on her back and her pack acted as a float. She was like a bug that could not turn over. My buddy and I ran as fast as we could, but we were out of range and could only watch helplessly as she was carried over the 300 foot falls. Her last words were, "Oh, no!" It was horrific.  :frown:

She is NOT here to tell how a branch was meant-to-be there to save her.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: Swami]
    #2260310 - 01/21/04 05:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I know what you are saying, and I think I agree with your point.


I think the reason this happens is because people fall into a mindset where anything and everything is a sign. I've had this mindset as well - and whenever something would come along that benfitted me greatly, or really upset me, it would be a sign, or part of my purpose, etc.


In all honesty, you can find "signs" everywhere you look.



I think the best take on it is to accept everything that happens to you as a gift. Wether your athiest or not, I think its agreeable that the experience of life is a geniune gift.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: Swami]
    #2260515 - 01/21/04 07:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe God was trying to teach you and your buddy a lesson. The lord works in mysterious ways, oh, don't forget that everything happens for a reason as well.


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2260582 - 01/21/04 07:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think that when people survive near-death experiences and attribute it to divine providence it might be a sign of fear or denial.  They don't like to think that it was just silly luck that saved their lives.  I mean, personally I'd rather think "I'm alive 'cause I'm so special and Jesus loves ME!" than "Hm, I guess we can kick the bucket whenever without any warning whatsoever.  Well, that 4-year subscription to the Globe and Mail doesn't seem like such a brilliant idea now, does it?"

And holy hell, Swami, that sounds absolutely horrific!  Watching someone... ugh... *shudder*... poor girl...  :crying: :crying: :crying:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: Swami]
    #2260623 - 01/21/04 07:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe whatever happens, be it survival OR death, IS what is meant-to-be.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2260687 - 01/21/04 07:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Maybe whatever happens, be it survival OR death, IS what is meant-to-be.



Meant to be by whom? Who means for it to be?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: Swami]
    #2260761 - 01/21/04 08:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

well, let's not say that accidents and tragedies can't trigger experiences of "fierce grace", self improvement/personal or spiritual transformation.
but often the way of coping with a close call is entirely reactionary... the incident sparking an intense fear of death initiates a defense mechanism of being protected by a higher power... seems obvious enough... but i hope you do know that you would not be helping somebody who happens to be in this situation by throwing stones at their fragile ego. i suppose a worse scenario due to some hang ups in somebody's religious/moral belief system would be when tragedies struck they would feel as if they somehow deserved the experience...

have you watched the hbo series Six Feet Under? you might find it enjoyable


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2260883 - 01/21/04 09:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe whatever happens, be it survival OR death, IS what is meant-to-be.

So people that CHOOSE dangerous activities just happen to live shorter lives because God wanted them "home" sooner ?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: Panoramix]
    #2260907 - 01/21/04 09:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

And holy hell, Swami, that sounds absolutely horrific! Watching someone... ugh... *shudder*... poor girl...

It was quite strange. My buddy and I were both new to the area so we didn't really understand what was going on until a little later as we did not "see" her actually go over, just heard her screaming and crying as she went around the bend in the woods. You had to see the stream. It was NOT in the least bit scary.

It wasn't until minutes later when we talked with other hikers that we fully understood what we had just witnessed. Then it was like an electric charge went through us. At least I did not suffer from any guilt about how I might have saved her.

Today there are now warning signs all along the tiny stream.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: Swami]
    #2261219 - 01/21/04 11:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i know what your saying swami.
I long ago dispensed with the idea of a god because, quite simple
god is either not good, or not omnipotent.

that is, either god is neither good nor evil, and all things are part of his plan, including hitlers genocide, If we believe god planned everything for a reason than we also believe, in a sense, that at some point in time god was sitting down writting the script of life and said 'now i think ill have 6000000 jews die in a gas chamber' and is then as worthy of our hate as our love

or else god wants only good for us, but is unable to provide it. but we know thats not true because he kicked us out of eden. i dunno this isnt even worth typing out anymore, so ill just leave it at that. there is not god, in any sense that we can ever understand


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: Swami]
    #2261355 - 01/22/04 12:04 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So maybe a branch didn't just "happen" to snag his backpack... not to say that "God" did put the branch there. My guess is that a sasquatch that had immigrated to the area saw the poor bastard floating along and the beast decided to save the self-righteous blind man. The other part of the story is that the publisher actually KNEW the bigfoot, and decided to give the bigfoot a stack of cash (or a year supply of beef jerky) to kill his wife in front of a security camera.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: Sclorch]
    #2261371 - 01/22/04 12:12 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

And then he made millions off Bigfoot Killed My Wife!!! : )


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: chunder]
    #2261386 - 01/22/04 12:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2261425 - 01/22/04 12:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I long ago dispensed with the idea of a god because, quite simple
god is either not good, or not omnipotent.

that is, either god is neither good nor evil, and all things are part of his plan, including hitlers genocide, If we believe god planned everything for a reason than we also believe, in a sense, that at some point in time god was sitting down writting the script of life and said 'now i think ill have 6000000 jews die in a gas chamber' and is then as worthy of our hate as our love


no. THAT god does not exist.

does he answer prayers or take sides on superbowl sunday? or in war?
does he care for petty human affairs? a personal, intervening god?... this picture of god is the unfortunate legacy of the monotheistic religions. we have reduced Him to a shill for human desires.

what a pity.
however, there does exist a more expansive view
religion aint it.
you'll never find God where people are


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2268964 - 01/24/04 08:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)



Edited by Xibalba (09/30/05 01:06 AM)


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: silversoul7]
    #2268980 - 01/24/04 08:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Meant to be by whom? Who means for it to be?
Them. Sounds ominous, doesn't it? :grin:
And no, I'm not talking about the Illuminati. :wink:

So people that CHOOSE dangerous activities just happen to live shorter lives because God wanted them "home" sooner ?

Nope, they chose their life before they incarnated. Including how their death comes. Sometimes they choose to die in a way to HELP other people learn a lesson.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Anonymous

Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: Swami]
    #2269247 - 01/24/04 09:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: ]
    #2269560 - 01/24/04 11:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Connect the dots, if you can, that is. 








:lol:


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: Xibalba]
    #2269581 - 01/24/04 11:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Very few among us are even deserving of God's favor, and those who are seem statistically no more likely than the rest to receive it.




We are all God's children, the way I see it.

When I think of God, I think of "our Father". I then compare His role to us, to my role to my children. I will let my children live their lives, and let them make mistakes and incur the natural consequences, but if one of my children needed my help, I would intervene.

I have 5 children, but they are all equally important, regardless of their ages or what they are doing that is of importance.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Meant-To-Be-Ness [Re: Frog]
    #2269698 - 01/25/04 12:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I will let my children live their lives, and let them make mistakes and incur the natural consequences, but if one of my children needed my help, I would intervene.



But how come God usually doesn't intervene when people have terminal illnesses and whatnot. Sure, SOMETIMES they get better, but usually they don't. Where's God when they need Him?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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