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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Palin= Bad cuz she's a fundamentalist christian? [Re: johnm214]
    #9237092 - 11/13/08 12:52 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

You are acting as if everyone who is religious follows the bible to the letter.

I'm going to drop out of this conversation now. I can't seem to relate to or understand your POV. Nor you to mine it seems.:shrug:

Happy days!


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineJax
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Re: Palin= Bad cuz she's a fundamentalist christian? [Re: johnm214]
    #9237154 - 11/13/08 01:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

Yes tehy are compelled to act on that belief.  What does that have to do with their governing philosophy?




Because they govern based on their beliefs.
Quote:



Quote:


Two, none of them seem to care whether they do anything that is opposed in the bible.  they use religion and the bible as either a way to gain support from nutters or a way to justify their actions.  I don't believe many, if any, prominent politicians give a shit about the bible.  When power and religion conflict religion looses.




This just seems like an even better reason to not elect supposedly fundamental/religious politicians.


Quote:


Finally, I don't understand why the fact that someone is compelled to act by their religion means anything unless they are a member of a religion whcih they a) follow (which nobody does that I'm aware of in national politics); and b) the religion compells them to institute some controll over the masses consistant with the religion.




Because many who don't take their religion seriously still tend to be dogmatic in their thinking, this isn't a characteristic politicians should have. And in general religion promotes the disposition that one's beliefs (and actions based on those beliefs) are superior to other's , and this is true even among most 'semi-religious' people, or whatever you want to call them.



Quote:

And since the bible doesn't compell you to be against abortion, or gay marriage, or anything else really at the policy level and requires that its adherents follow the law and respect and forgive sinners, I think the judgement is stupid.




The judgement isn't stupid. Just because the most Christians aren't the way they should be doesn't take anything away from the fact that in general they are some bigoted self-rightoues people.

Quote:


FOr me, I wait untill someone expresses a policy decision I disagree with.  That is why I could vote for obama despite his christian beliefs.  And same with palin, despite her agreeing with Obama that gays shouldn't be able to marry due to some bullshit in their religion.  And this is why I can vote for Ron Paul despite his concervative christian views.  I care what a person's views as to government are, not what their private philosophy is.




You can ignore the link between private philosophy and political philosophy, but that won't make it go away.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Palin= Bad cuz she's a fundamentalist christian? [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9237223 - 11/13/08 01:17 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I could hardly say that Palin ignores the bible. She seems to love her biblical teachings. Anyhow, what authority do you have to deem Palin more theologically sound? What are your criteria for this bullshit idea of "theological soundness"? Everyone is free to believe as they wish to believe. My problem with Palin is that she does not seem to openly question her beliefs or the beliefs dictated to her. That is the problem I have with fundamentalism... the idea that someone is claiming absolute knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong, truth and untruth. This position is absurd to me.





I thought I already explained it.  When refering to the bible or her religion she follows the talking points of the religion that I here when I go to church or read religious political writers.  I agree she isn't open to contrary views.  How could you say she doesn't ignore the bible?  She is against abortion for religious reasons.  Where does the bible support that stance?  It doesn't, and infact the history of christian thought is opposed to her claims.

She talks about opposing the laws she decides oppose chritianity.  The bible says to follow the law.  This is what I mean.  Do you disagree with this or what?  I'm saying she follows the talking points and ignores the textual support she claims exists but often doesn't.

Quote:

Stop lying about what Obama supports. You wonder why you are hard to take seriously... Obama supports no such thing.

Obama: "I agree with most Americans, with Democrats and Republicans, with Vice President Cheney, with over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage, as they always have, should be left to the states."

Obama: "I don't think homosexuals are immoral any more than I think heterosexuals are immoral."

OF course, if he supports banning gay marriage, why this?

Obama: Voted NO on constitutional ban of same-sex marriage.






Don't be an ass.  You have no evidence I'm lying.  I don't know why you say I'm hard to take seriously, but I'd appreciate something on point rather than accusations buttressed with irrelevant facts.

I said obama supports gay mariage bans.  You replied with several things:

1.  Support for federalism.  This has nothing to do wtih whether he supports or opposes gay marriage prohibition.
2.  Doesn't think gays are more immoral than straights.  This is irrelevant too.
3.  Voted against a constitutional ban of same sex marriage.  Again, has nothing to do with whether he supports or opposes same sex marriage bans per se, and was clearly premised upon a claim the amendment was partisan bullshit and an inappropriate addition to the constituiton.  In his floor speech he even said he's against gay marriage but that he was voting against it due to teh political bullshit surrounding it and the sanctity of the constiuttion.  How does this refute my point when he even says he's against gay marriage as he votes against it and the vote was not inconsistent with my claim in the first place? 

From his floor speech w/ regards to the federal marriage amendment:
Quote:

Now, I realize that for some Americans, this is an important issue. And I should say that personally, I do believe that marriage is between a man and a woman...

I agree with most Americans, with Democrats and Republicans, with Vice President Cheney, with over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage, as they always have, should be left to the states.

Today, we should take this amendment only for what it is - a political ploy designed to rally a few supporters




Where is he stating he doesn't oppose same sex marriage?




Quote:

Several gay friends and wealthy gay donors to Senator Barack Obama have asked him over the years why, as a matter of logic and fairness, he opposes same-sex marriage even though he has condemned old miscegenation laws that would have barred his black father from marrying his white mother.

The difference, Mr. Obama has told them, is religion.

As a Christian — he is a member of the United Church of Christ — Mr. Obama believes that marriage is a sacred union, a blessing from God, and one that is intended for a man and a woman exclusively, according to these supporters and Obama campaign advisers. While he does not favor laws that ban same-sex marriage, and has said he is “open to the possibility” that his views may be “misguided,” he does not support it and is not inclined to fight for it, his advisers say.




http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/01/us/politics/01marriage.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin


This is one source.  There are numerous mentions of his opposition to same sex marriage.


So again, could you provide something on point, rather than listing things saying he doesn't believe gays are immoral or detailing his federalist stance of which I'm aware?  I don't know why you say I'm lying or I'm hard to take seriously when you reply with claims that don't bear on the distputed issue.


Quote:


At least Palin follows popular Christian thought... so apparently following popular christian thought and having an absolute theological and historical basis for ones own belief system is somehow, according to you, better than questioning the absolute theological and historical basis for ones own belief system? Somehow following popular christian thought is more "right" than critical thinking and formulation of a personal belief system that does not rely solely on an ancient book and reading what is in that book as absolute truth?

Yeah.

I'm not following your logic, but then again, this is typical fundamentalist logic. Absolutism and standing on "solid theological ground" is apparently more important than critical thinking and recognizing there is no such thing as "solid theological ground." That is why I don't support fundamentalists in office. I'm glad that people are moving in that direction.





Maybe you're not following my logic because your assigning arguments to me which I didn't make.  You suggest I'm stating its better to follow popular christian thought and absolutist interpretations than to make individualised determinations.  I don't believe that and I don't support that.

Where did that come from?  Maybe you shouldn't read into my statements and decide I'm advocating something that I didn't say.  I was making a judgement as to the consistency and plausiblity of the candidates' religious justifications for their views

And you state that absolutism and standing on solid theological ground is apparently more important than critical thinking and that is why you don't support fundamentalists in office.  This is what I mean as to prejudism.  What does this have to do with the merits of a christian candidate?  If they are rigid and impractical I wouldn't vote for them, and I think that makes sense.  What I don't think makes sense is to presume because of someone's personal beliefs that they can't think rationally or make rational choices.  You didn't answer the question, you simply conflated poor thinking with Christianity and fundamentalism and proceeded from there.


Quote:


To me, and maybe I'm the only one here (but I strongly doubt that), Obama's stance on religion and his typically agnostic views on spirituality show that he is willing to challenge the status quo and show that he does not automatically accept theological texts as absolute truth. You won't find Palin nearly as insightful as Obama was in the quotes I posted. I admire Obama's ability to strongly question his own beliefs and admit a lack of knowledge.





What specifically isn't she as insightful on?  Personally I think they are both full of shit and make the decisions they do from political considerations primarily, but what are you referring to?



Its kind of disturbing thought that  you seem to read into my statements things I've not said, and then argue against points I've not made.  Then you state that I'm lieing and that people can't take me seriously.  WHile I don't know what your referring to, it does seem teh examples you've listed don't represent either my positions or what I've communicated, and that therefore you might wish to read again what I said and what you presumed I said or meant but was unable to communicate.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Palin= Bad cuz she's a fundamentalist christian? [Re: Icelander]
    #9237270 - 11/13/08 01:26 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You are acting as if everyone who is religious follows the bible to the letter.

I'm going to drop out of this conversation now. I can't seem to relate to or understand your POV. Nor you to mine it seems.:shrug:

Happy days!




No, I understand you pov, and I largely agree with it.  I'm just saying that you shouldn't presume a candidate will have the same policy as they do personal belief.  That's it.  So presuming that someone is a christian or whatever shouldn't be the same as presuming they'd be a tyrant.


That's all I'm saying.  To jax too.  I don't think you should presume what someone's personal belief system is will govern their actions and make them behave in a stereotypical way.

I think this is just as much prejudiced as the christian that won't vote for the athiest or nonchristian.


And this is the thinking that results in every candidate for major office pretty much pretending to become a christian when its plain its an act.

Its both bullshit of the same kind.

Quote:

Jax said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:

Yes tehy are compelled to act on that belief.  What does that have to do with their governing philosophy?




Because they govern based on their beliefs.





So obama shouldn't be voted for cu he's a christian?  Mccain? Ron paul?  John Edwards?


What evidence do you have they govern based on their religious beliefs?  What makes you think they don't want to stay in office and thus choose politically advantageous beliefs and justify them in the most advantageous manner possible?


Why would you presume they will act based upon their religious beliefs?  And if you have evidence they will act on their religious beliefs then why don't you analye them on their merits?  Did they do as the bible said and forgive a man who admits he's wrong and who asked forgivness?  Did they grant him clemency or waive prosecution since it would be unjust?  Or did they through someone in jail for life for smoking a joint based on christian beliefs?

In either case does it matter what the belief system is?  Shouldn't it matter what they did, not the reason they did it?  I want people that make good policy and act appropriatly. I don't care why they do it, and I think you should make these decisions upon their platform and history, not upon their beliefs you presume, without evidence, that they will use to enforce wrong-headed policy.

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Invisiblepinkfloydms
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Re: Palin= Bad cuz she's a fundamentalist christian? [Re: johnm214]
    #9237332 - 11/13/08 01:39 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

How could you say she doesn't ignore the bible?  She is against abortion for religious reasons.  Where does the bible support that stance?  It doesn't, and infact the history of christian thought is opposed to her claims.




I've never heard that the bible supports abortion. I've always seen churches with signs up saying "abortion is the devil, god loves all children etc..."

Quote:

She talks about opposing the laws she decides oppose chritianity.  The bible says to follow the law.  This is what I mean.  Do you disagree with this or what?  I'm saying she follows the talking points and ignores the textual support she claims exists but often doesn't.
Quote:



The only laws the bible talks about following are the ten commandments. It also says in the bible that you are suppose to go to christian courts, no other. So I guess she opposes the bible in that sense?
(“If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?”  -- 1 Corinthians 6:1 NIV)


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OfflineJax
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Re: Palin= Bad cuz she's a fundamentalist christian? [Re: johnm214]
    #9237389 - 11/13/08 01:57 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not saying there aren't any Christians fit to govern at all. I agree with you on how we should evaluate our politicians, mostly.

I think being a fundamentalist in general disqualifies one from being fit to govern, if you're arguing that fundamentalists aren't actually fundamentalists but just use fundamentalism to manipulate their constituency, then that in itself is a reason to not vote for them. So either way, I wouldn't vote for someone who was/pretended to be a fundamentalist.


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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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. [Re: pinkfloydms]
    #9237447 - 11/13/08 02:10 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

.


--------------------
.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 05:13 PM)

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Offlinemonkeywrench
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Re: Palin= Bad cuz she's a fundamentalist christian? [Re: Seuss]
    #9241717 - 11/14/08 12:14 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> they can't because their beliefs permeate every bit of their critical thinking. it's simple

That is like claiming that atheists cannot be moral because morals come from the church and from god.  The only problem with fundamentalists is when they try to inject their belief system into politics by legislating their faith.


It's not any thing of the sort.  saying that morals come from a god is nothing that I can prove nor disprove conclusively, but when you claim to know the  answer and feel convicted to ensure it's pervasiveness because of a religious mandate then all of the other bullshit comes along with it is just as valid in their minds..  I'm speaking mainly to the christian perspective because that's what I'm most familiar with, but I would assume it's basically the same with other religions.


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[quote]skalthren said:
It's nice of you to imply that I've been brainwashed by the government, but the truth is that I'm simply intelligent enough to recognize the subtleties of these issues instead of going "durr hurr, weed should totally be legal!"[/quote]

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Offlinekriminalelement
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Re: Palin= Bad cuz she's a fundamentalist christian? [Re: monkeywrench]
    #9245719 - 11/14/08 06:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

My take on the OP

Quote:

1.  Is Palin a fundamentalist christian?  If so, what does that mean? What evidence is there that she's a fundy?

2.  Does it matter as to their suitability to be an executive if someone is a christian?  Why?  Does it matter if someone is a fundamentalist christian that believes in creationism, jesus, hell, satan, et cet?

3.  If someone, you for example, answered yes to number 2, isn't this an admittedly prejudiced opinion if not outright bigotry?  Why or why not.




1. A fundamentalist Christian means that one has a personal relationship with God, and that relationship is through the literal meaning of the bible. Fundamentalists are common to all religions with holy texts. For example, Gandhi was a fundamentalist Hindu.

2. Obviously, one's religion does not make a difference to their suitability to be president, unless you're a scientologist (just a joke, people). The problem most people have is that Sarah Palin's political philosophy contains elements of fundamentalist christian political agendas. Supporters of the right to choice, religious freedoms, and separation of Church and State have issues with this because they don't want government action impinging on THEIR religious rights. I heard this described once as "spiritual rape".

Sarah Palin IS against choice, and I think that's the biggest issue. She's also against gay marriage because of her "moral" beliefs about marriage being defined as a man-woman contract, an idea that has a biblical source. Fundamentalist politicians, including Sarah Palin, try to define marriage as a religious event instead of what it is under US law: a binding legal contract. As far as the law is concerned, marriage doesn't have to have anything to do with church/the bible. Sarah Palin wants that to change.

So again, it's not the religion that's the problem. It's the political agenda that stems from the religion.

3. I think that since you don't understand why people object to fundamentalist political philosophy, your mind automatically translated objections to her as bigotry. It will likely continue to do so until you listen to the subtleties of what people say.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Palin= Bad cuz she's a fundamentalist christian? [Re: kriminalelement]
    #9246833 - 11/14/08 10:35 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

What the heck is an OP?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Palin= Bad cuz she's a fundamentalist christian? [Re: zorbman]
    #9246847 - 11/14/08 10:38 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Original poster?

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Palin= Bad cuz she's a fundamentalist christian? [Re: Redstorm]
    #9247647 - 11/15/08 03:42 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Original poster?




QFT


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Offlinesuttree
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Re: Palin= Bad cuz she's a fundamentalist christian? [Re: phi1618]
    #22553292 - 11/20/15 10:00 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I do. Esortic levels make me a believer. Spiritual laws. It cannot be overpowered. But fair. Something teaches me. Nothing is worse in my life experience than that being cut off.

God/life is so benevolent within limits. I have tested deeply.

Cheer up.


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Invisiblemycoprog
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Re: Palin= Bad cuz she's a fundamentalist christian? [Re: suttree]
    #22554029 - 11/21/15 02:33 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

This post is (was) 7 years old.  :no:


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OfflineTreebux
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Re: Palin= Bad cuz she's a fundamentalist christian? [Re: johnm214]
    #22565942 - 11/23/15 10:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I don't really believe in heaven And hell but I think we need more Christian leaders in this country.

I think nothing bad can come from being a Christian. And people judging someome because they choose to believe in God (which is one of our rights in the USA) is really fucked up. Christianity installs good morals in people. Palin is a smart women or she wouldn't be where she is today. Young people watch comedy central and SNL and get ideas that other people put into your head of what's trendy to believe.


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