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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
the Humanities make us more human
    #2256011 - 01/20/04 02:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

if the freaky neo cons had their way, there would be no humanities. no one would learn music theory, philosophy, read the great works, etc.

oh wait, that's how it is now.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: Malachi]
    #2256017 - 01/20/04 02:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Anonymous

Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: Malachi]
    #2256031 - 01/20/04 02:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

the government has no business in the arts.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Registered: 11/27/02
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Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: Malachi]
    #2256048 - 01/20/04 02:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Insightfull....thanks for that.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: ]
    #2256130 - 01/20/04 03:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
the government has no business in the arts.




yeah, that silly adam smith fella didn't know what he was talking about.

just like that silly plato guy doesn't know shit about a just state.

TAXES ARE STEALING!

cause, you know, that new pair of nikes you want are WAYYY more important than some old books.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Anonymous

Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: Malachi]
    #2256177 - 01/20/04 03:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

what are you talking about? the government has got no business in art, literature, music, philosophy, sex, religion, etc, etc, etc.

tell me... why should the government involve itself in the arts and what role should it play?

btw. plato was a fascist and i don't recall adam smith ever advocating that the government regulate the arts.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: ]
    #2256204 - 01/20/04 03:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I dont think he is talking about the government, I think he is talking about a social faction that wants to take the government over.

A lot of lassiez faire capitalists forget that the grass roots base of the republican party is a bunch of religious zealots that want to crminalize everything that doesnt fit into their value system.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Anonymous

Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2256300 - 01/20/04 04:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)


I dont think he is talking about the government, I think he is talking about a social faction that wants to take the government over.


if he was worried about that, i'd think he'd be just a tad more receptive to my statement that the government has got no place in the arts.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: ]
    #2256419 - 01/20/04 04:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

hmm,,,,well,,,mabye malachi can formulate the above into a legible consise point that represents what he is trying to say here.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: ]
    #2259577 - 01/21/04 01:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
what are you talking about? the government has got no business in art, literature, music, philosophy, sex, religion, etc, etc, etc.

tell me... why should the government involve itself in the arts and what role should it play?

btw. plato was a fascist and i don't recall adam smith ever advocating that the government regulate the arts.




oh yes, the market will accommodate the arts.  of course.

smith urged education in liberal arts as a requisite component of citizenship so informed choice could be made.  plato explained the give and take of being a citizen.  neither concepts you seem to grasp.

you must be a fascist.

fascist.  fascist fascist.  fascist fascist fascist.


fascist.


:shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: Malachi]
    #2259871 - 01/21/04 03:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
you must be a fascist.

fascist. fascist fascist. fascist fascist fascist.


fascist.



You are extraordinarily silly. The arts exists in abundance with no help from the government. Art is a organic expression of humans. When the government supports the arts, what in reality happens is that the government supports some art and not others. Did Jazz, Rock and Roll, Rap, Hip-Hop, Punk or Blues come from the government? NO. Government funding for the arts in this country started when the ultra wealthy tired of paying for their leisure activities and cajoled their friends in government to start funding them. The arts of the common man got no such funding and flourished. Yes, that's right, 'the market' brought us a greater wealth of art than all the government programs combined.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: Malachi]
    #2259985 - 01/21/04 03:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

ah... so you are talking about the government instructing the citizens in the arts? you feel that "there would be no humanities" if the government did not fund and guide them?

neither concepts you seem to grasp.

i understand the give and take very well. i've explained it to others quite a few times. would you care to hear?

you must be a fascist.

as an individualist, no, i cannot be described as a fascist. as a proponent of state authority over the lives of individuals, the label would be more befitting of you.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: ]
    #2259996 - 01/21/04 03:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think what malachi is trying to say is that sometimes good art isnt economically viable.

For all the enjoyment and inspiration that the world got out of picasso's paintings, he still died a pauper. Many artists are so ahead of their time that their work isnt appreciated until after their death.

I think you'll agree that it is a bitter injustice for an artist to contribute much to the world and never get anything out of it (until a hundred years after their death). Malachi seems to think that this is an injustice that properly applied government could cure by supplementing the arts.

I'll admit I'm still "on the fence" on this issue.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Anonymous

Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2260028 - 01/21/04 04:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

do you want the government funding the arts? i sure as hell don't. the last thing needed in the arts is the government giving money to those it feels are worthy and denying it to those it doesn't. it would be subsidizing government-approved art, and you can be damn sure that non-approved art would suffer.

maybe they could fund music. subsidize record companies who put out music with an anti-drug or pro-america message. or maybe all of them except the ones that produce hip hop or that damn rock and roll these kids are listening to these days.

literature of course could use a boost from state funds. obviously books with unpatriotic messages or "obscene" ones about stuff like sex or drugs would be denied funding.

when the government funds the arts, you be damn sure that they are going to make exceptions. they aren't going to fund "unsuitable" art. by subsidizing "approved" art, they make it more difficult, and possibly impossible, for producers of "unsuitable" art to compete.

personally i don't want the government helping to put out "suitable art", especially with tax dollars.

how about government funding of new stained glass windows in america's churches? that's art...

you see where it goes...


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2260037 - 01/21/04 04:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I think what malachi is trying to say is that sometimes good art isnt economically viable.



'Good art' is a matter of opinion, if enough people find art to be good it will be economically viable.

Quote:

For all the enjoyment and inspiration that the world got out of picasso's paintings, he still died a pauper.



There are still a great number of people who do not like his work.

Quote:

Many artists are so ahead of their time that their work isnt appreciated until after their death.



So? Should the taxpayers pay me for computer programs that no one wants to buy?

Quote:

I think you'll agree that it is a bitter injustice for an artist to contribute much to the world...



This again is a matter of opinion. The appreciation of art is very subjective.

Quote:

... and never get anything out of it (until a hundred years after their death).



Why should money be extorted from taxpayers to please Malachi's artistic sensibilities?

Quote:

Malachi seems to think that this is an injustice that properly applied government could cure by supplementing the arts.



If he thinks some art is worthy of promotion, HE should promote it as a free individual. He should not force others to contribute to subsidizing art that they do not appreciate. What is he, an ART NAZI?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: Evolving]
    #2260998 - 01/21/04 09:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

thank you, both mushmaster and Evolving.

those are some fine points, some of which I had not considered.

I am aware of bad scenarios that could arise from this and I know how ugly they are. That's why I'm on the fence. But I also recognize other possibilities.

Take the 90's for instance. Democrat in the white house, many art and student grants being given out each year, unreformed welfare system. The American cultural landscape at that time was far more rich and diverse than it is now, at least IMO.

Fast forward to the present. Big business has royally fucked up the music industry. MTV, once a diverse, content-rich cultural icon has been abused as a marketing tool to the point of ineffectiveness. Corporate-owned radio stations have us listening to the same 8 songs over and over. Bars and clubs only book bands that sell alcohol- unfortunately these are the bands that require a good dose of alcohol in order to sound pleasing to the listeners ears. The RIAA still has not figured out a way to deal with P2P, ie, allowing users to download liscensed copies of songs online for a reasonable fee (Wired magazine suggested that the price be $.29 per song, I think $1 is fair) Musicians are getting fucked and have been getting fucked by private business for a long time, and we are starting to see the results of this in the form of a stagnant culture.

Now I'm not a big fan of government regulation or anything. Lord knows the FCC is no friend to the arts. Nor are the 4AM "dance curfews" in the city where I'm from. I'm just sayin that maybe the government should give a few people grants for doin art the way they give some people grants for college. Kind of a safety net for those few talented individuals who slip through the cracks of our stuffy, business-oriented society. Maybe.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2261116 - 01/21/04 10:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
The RIAA still has not figured out a way to deal with P2P, ie, allowing users to download liscensed copies of songs online for a reasonable fee (Wired magazine suggested that the price be $.29 per song, I think $1 is fair) .



Ever heard of iTunes? Napster? The Dell music store? They all offer songs that can be downloaded for a reasonable fee. There is demand and the market is responding. These things just take time. The government getting involved (ie shutting down napster etc) probably just delayed the response of the market. If something is in demand it will be supplied.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinefalcon
In the green

Registered: 04/01/02
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Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2261174 - 01/21/04 11:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Picasso died so rich he could wipe his ass with hundreds, which would make as much sense as his work, Van Gogh died  a pauper, but he was nuts and Picasso wasn't.

The interesting thing about Picasso is that he actively sought wealth and used The Ace of clubs in a lot of his works to represent wealth.

Most of later stuff was representational and crap and most of his earlier stuff other people did it better imo, but he was a great salesman.

Van Gogh on the other hand did it better than any one impressionism, but fared worst than most if not all of the impressionists.

I went to an exhibition in Cleveland of Picasso's work some years ago its amazing he still gets so much recognition I think it has something to do with the people who own his work and maintaing its value. :smirk:


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: Malachi]
    #2261189 - 01/21/04 11:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

the humanities are History, Philosophy, and a couple I can't remember, they are not sculpture, music, ect. thought they be the study of these things, they are not involved in their crafting, editI thought I had a point there, but I'm not sure if funding has been curtailed to the Humanities or the Arts but they are freaky those neocons.


Edited by falcon (01/21/04 11:16 PM)


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: the Humanities make us more human [Re: falcon]
    #2261227 - 01/21/04 11:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

oops, you're right.

I knew it wasnt picasso that died poor. you must excuse me; my last art history class was 4 years ago. I actually was under the impression that picasso was the one that cut his ear off, too! Silly me. Slip of the mind.

Van Goh might have been crazy, but he still made a contribution to society and didnt recieve much in return.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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