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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/07/06
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Re: Paris Hilton Attacked [Re: Malkuthian]
    #22653677 - 12/14/15 01:41 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Malkuthian said:
Quote:

White Beard said:
I've listed solutions in this thread, solutions for western nations however. Something along the lines of limiting or stopping immigration from muslim countries, education about islam and western values, and a few more things i think. too lazy right now to dig it out of this thread. i don't really have any idea yet how to fix islamic nations yet.




I don't believe closing our borders is a good idea. That would result in exclusion of Muslims. I think that would separate us even further from them (incl. all of the peaceful Muslims). What will happen with all the peaceful ones that are suffering at the hands of ISIS and others. They want to flee to save their lives, but we will not let them come because they have the same religion/nationality as the guys violating their existence. Today we have millions of extremist enemies. Closing the border to every Muslim might give us more than a Billion enemies. 

I say we need to continue to reform Islam. That will never be done with exclusion. We need to show the perks of our way of living to the everyday Muslim, while not accepting the ones refusing to adjust to our laws. And we need to focus on the big problems like Saudi. Why are we still buying their oil?

Quote:

White Beard said:
i agree that i was wrong with the original comment... thought you were saying isis aren't muslims cause it sounded like that common apologist argument, so apologies there. however, if your point is all muslims aren't isis, then so what? no one is dumb enough to argue that i think. the point is that islam seems to breed a lot of these groups; far more than any other religion, and i think the honest question to ask is why?




Thank you.
But it's so common in these discussions that if you say something you are grouped with either the far left or the far right. It's so unnecessary. It polarizes us and makes us closer to being enemies. Much like closing borders to ALL Muslims simply because they are Muslims. I don't like that type of polarization. It wont get us anywhere good.

Anyway, the reason I mentioned it in my first post was that I thought it obvious that it was a problem in this thread. Maybe not an intellectual problem, because most people understand the difference, but still a problem because the word "Muslims" are used over and over in ISIS contexts. Muslim hate pops it's head out here and there. When ISIS does something: "I told you Muslims are bad".

Quote:

White Beard said:
moreover, we have to look at how these religions are practiced today, well, islam seems especially crummy to me in regards to human rights. sure there are examples of decent muslims, or muslims who hangout at the liquor store, and i'm not trying to say all muslims are bad, but i'm trying to look at the big picture of how these religions effect world politics, and ask why does islam stand out like it does compared to other religions today.




Looking at the big picture is always a good idea.
I think certain areas in the world stands out. The country with the biggest problems with female genital mutilation is a christian country. I would never blame Christianity for this. Finding a scapegoat like that is to simple. And that is at least not what I refer to when I saw "looking at the big picture".

But if we look at the major religions and search for the one with most problems 2015, you are correct, it's Islam. It stands out. So what should we do about it?

It will not stand out any less by closing the boarders while trying to exclude Muslims form the rest of the world. We agree there is a problem, I just think you reasoning is a problem as well. I to can oppose more than one thing at a time :wink:




"Why are we still buying their (SA) oil?"

The US doesn't buy SA oil, it doesn't really matter as oil is a global commodity.  The world isn't going to stop SA oil from hitting the global markets, that's a pipedream.


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: Paris Hilton Attacked [Re: qman]
    #22653742 - 12/14/15 02:00 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"Why are we still buying their (SA) oil?"

The US doesn't buy SA oil, it doesn't really matter as oil is a global commodity.  The world isn't going to stop SA oil from hitting the global markets, that's a pipedream.




By "we" I was talking about the western world. The US are not always the center of the everything...

And I was arguing WE should stop trading with such Countries, I never said that it will magically solve everything. But it's still very obvious we should not trade with them. Oil and everything else.

Yet we do trade.
US included.
In 2014 US imports from Saudi was worth ~50 billion US dollars.
(https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5170.html)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Paris Hilton Attacked [Re: Malkuthian]
    #22654035 - 12/14/15 03:32 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Malkuthian said:
Quote:

qman said:
"Why are we still buying their (SA) oil?"

The US doesn't buy SA oil, it doesn't really matter as oil is a global commodity.  The world isn't going to stop SA oil from hitting the global markets, that's a pipedream.




By "we" I was talking about the western world. The US are not always the center of the everything...

And I was arguing WE should stop trading with such Countries, I never said that it will magically solve everything. But it's still very obvious we should not trade with them. Oil and everything else.

Yet we do trade.
US included.
In 2014 US imports from Saudi was worth ~50 billion US dollars.
(https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5170.html)




I think the US should stop trading with all 3rd world economies, but that's based on economic reasons, why do you think the US and the West should stop with SA?


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: Paris Hilton Attacked [Re: qman]
    #22654127 - 12/14/15 04:05 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I think the US should stop trading with all 3rd world economies, but that's based on economic reasons, why do you think the US and the West should stop with SA?



Because SA have a big religious influence, they are hindering reformation of Muslims by spreading conservative views on Islam. AND they are funding Deash... But if if they weren't it would still be ridiculous to support a country with such horrid laws.

SA is a big problem in many ways. The first step in removing this problem is to stop trading with them.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Paris Hilton Attacked [Re: Malkuthian]
    #22654219 - 12/14/15 04:35 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Malkuthian said:
Quote:

qman said:
I think the US should stop trading with all 3rd world economies, but that's based on economic reasons, why do you think the US and the West should stop with SA?



Because SA have a big religious influence, they are hindering reformation of Muslims by spreading conservative views on Islam. AND they are funding Deash... But if if they weren't it would still be ridiculous to support a country with such horrid laws.

SA is a big problem in many ways. The first step in removing this problem is to stop trading with them.




I think you might give SA too much credit, I fail to see how punishing SA with a trade embargo will fix the Muslims living in the EU to assimilate into European culture.


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: Paris Hilton Attacked [Re: qman]
    #22654251 - 12/14/15 04:44 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I think you might give SA too much credit, I fail to see how punishing SA with a trade embargo will fix the Muslims living in the EU to assimilate into European culture.




I think your reading to much into things... Giving me opinions I don't have. A lot of things must be done. I mentioned one thing. How big roll Saudi are playing is a though question. Nevertheless it is rather obvious that trading with such countries won't make anything better.


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Offlineeehoo
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Re: Paris Hilton Attacked [Re: Malkuthian]
    #22658939 - 12/15/15 05:01 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I believe Russia spied on turkey and found some underground oil deals going on. And turkey is part of nato, correct? So there can be a lot of under the table things working here. All we do know is they are getting massive amounts of funds on the daily, and they don't hesitate to skin people alive or rape children. So yeah, there's that to consider. :facepalm:


--------------------


Edited by eehoo (12/15/15 05:01 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Paris Hilton Attacked [Re: White Beard]
    #22662917 - 12/16/15 02:18 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Beautiful and very informative documentary in three parts. The best I found so far, for kind of starters, on this topic.
The Life of Muhammad (BBC)
Starting here with part 2 as it's most relevant to the actual topic in case.



[edit: special attention to section from 29:05 min ... so which constitution does ISIS refer to ? Was it Muhammad's own constitution of the first islamic state in medina ? See how those war- and powermongers use their evil intentions to corrupt even the essence of the quran]


Edited by BlueCoyote (12/17/15 11:46 AM)


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Offlineeehoo
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Re: Paris Hilton Attacked [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #22666428 - 12/17/15 07:13 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)



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