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Offlinestarfire_xes
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The Debate is Over.....
    #22507190 - 11/10/15 09:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Trump looked like a we1akling.  He sure doesnt have much substabcem ge us all rhetoric.  A Rand Paul--when Trump went off about The TPP and was bashing China on it, Paul said, 'uh, China isn't part of the TPP....'  There was a weird reaction from the audience and Trump looked like an idiot deer in the headlights.  Trump confirmed what I thought--he's a bullshitter. 


Here's how I called it;

1 Rubio
2 Rand Paul
3 Cruz
4 Fiorina
5 Carson
6 Trump
7  Bush
8  That other guy :smirk:

face it, Bush and Kasich don't belong there.


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Onlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22507397 - 11/10/15 10:24 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Trump looked like a we1akling.  He sure doesnt have much substabcem ge us all rhetoric.  A Rand Paul--when Trump went off about The TPP and was bashing China on it, Paul said, 'uh, China isn't part of the TPP....'  There was a weird reaction from the audience and Trump looked like an idiot deer in the headlights.  Trump confirmed what I thought--he's a bullshitter. 


Here's how I called it;

1 Rubio
2 Rand Paul
3 Cruz
4 Fiorina
5 Carson
6 Trump
7  Bush
8  That other guy :smirk:

face it, Bush and Kasich don't belong there.




It's immaterial if China is officially in the TPP or not, China and the US elite have a great relationship and Trump is making that public, he's the only one that has the balls to do that task.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: qman]
    #22507425 - 11/10/15 10:34 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Turmp is a bull-shitter.  And it was a blunder to mix China in with the TPP because Paul made him look stupid. :shrug:

I also noticed Trump jumping in and agreeing whenever someone got a good response.


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OfflineHardTrippin
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Registered: 11/05/09
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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22507436 - 11/10/15 10:37 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

There's something satisfying about someone like Trump finding out they can't get everything they want.


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InvisibleDoes

Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 2,846
Loc: Flag
Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: qman]
    #22507439 - 11/10/15 10:38 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

theres only trump and paul not that i trust either

rest im sure have sold their soul


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: Does]
    #22507467 - 11/10/15 10:53 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Does said:
theres only trump and paul not that i trust either

rest im sure have sold their soul




You obviously didn't listen to Ted Cruz--or you didn't hear him.


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InvisibleShroom Detective
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Registered: 07/02/14
Posts: 1,699
Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22507490 - 11/10/15 11:02 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

:dancer:Ted Cruz Wins the Night :dancer:

by Rich Lowry November 11, 2015 12:10 AM

@richlowry

Ted Cruz had a terrific night. He had a stand-out answer on immigration and wages, and made his own fortune by getting into an argument with John Kasich on bank bailouts, enunciating the anti-bailout position forcefully and repeatedly (although I don’t really believe he wouldn’t bail out a major financial institution in the midst of a financial panic if he were president). He was pointed, eloquent, and, of course, very conservative.

Marco Rubio was very good, as well. But I thought Rubio was slightly better than Cruz last time, and that Cruz was slightly better this time. Rubio just felt a little off. Journalists were complaining on Twitter about how canned Rubio is, and truth be told, he is during these events (as are Cruz and Carly Fiorina). The trick is hiding it and tonight Rubio seemed to be more obviously downloading speech fragments than in other debates. That said, he won the exchange with Rand Paul on foreign policy, ably defended his child tax credit, and didn’t have an affirmatively bad moment.

Both Cruz and Rubio are highly capable of defending themselves. You really never have to worry about them in an exchange, and that quality will stand them in good stead going forward.

Ben Carson was pleasant. He predictably hit the question about his bio out of the park and brought up politically correctness at the end. He, once again, wasn’t commanding on the substance, but it hasn’t mattered to this point.

Donald Trump was largely subdued, although he perked up to slap down Kasich and broadcast how he has let Fiorina get under his skin with his complaint about her interrupting that got boos. He obviously knows nothing about the TPP that he so passionately opposes, and Rand Paul showed him up on that. He’s also at sea on foreign policy. Overall, a more respectable, but still poor showing.

Jeb Bush was definitely better, but just OK. He seemed to lose momentum as the night went on. But it should be enough to stem a potential donor panic.

Carly Fiorina had several nice riffs, and a cutting line at Trump’s expense (she met Vladimir Putin and not in a green room).

Rand Paul allowed himself to be Rand Paul. It was his best debate, even if it’s hard to see it helping him much.

John Kasich, irritable and out of step with the party, may end up buying himself a ticket to the undercard.

Speaking of that, Chris Christie was the best performer in the early debate, even if he didn’t attempt to defend his New Jersey record from Bobby Jindal’s repeated jibes. Christie effectively brushed Jindal off, but the Louisiana governor certainly got across the message that he wanted to–that he disdains big government Republicans.




http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/426899/ted-cruz-wins-night-rich-lowry


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InvisibleDoes

Registered: 02/12/12
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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22507498 - 11/10/15 11:04 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

i only heard parts of the debate, cruz says appealing things sometimes, but seems devoid of any true spark, just another pawn to split votes i fear


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InvisibleShroom Detective
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Registered: 07/02/14
Posts: 1,699
Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: Does]
    #22507570 - 11/10/15 11:31 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Winners & Losers

by Jonah Goldberg November 11, 2015 12:00 AM
@JonahNRO

My takeaways in no particular order:

Biggest loser on merits: Kasich. He’s done. He came across angry, condescending and unprincipled. By the end of the debate he came across as the drunk, obnoxious, uncle everyone wishes hadn’t accepted the invitation to Thanksgiving dinner.

Biggest loser politically: Jeb Bush. On the substance, I thought his performance during the first half was the best he’s done. But by the second half he started to fade and grew more incoherent. On several occasions he gave passable answers if you could cut through the word clouds, but then Rubio came in and gave essentially the same answer better, both on substance and style. This was particularly true during the discussion of the bank bailouts. More than anything, Bush needed to outshine Rubio and lay the groundwork for a “Bush comeback” narrative. He simply didn’t do that. He didn’t do what he needed to do stop the slide of donors and voters to Rubio.

The winners are a broader bunch. Rubio was definitely one of them for the reasons I stated above (he was also hugely lucky in staying out of the immigration fight on amnesty). Cruz, also, had a great night. He solidified his position as the credible “outsider” candidate who can go all the way. He also jointed Kasich on the question of the bank bailouts (though he might have hurt himself with Wall Street donors).

One other point about both Cruz and Rubio. During the discussions of their tax plans and national defense, they both tailored their answers in ways that will play well in both Iowa and New Hampshire.

I thought Carly Fiorina had some of the best answers of the night. But she didn’t shine the way she has in past debates in part because her competitors were so much better.

Ben Carson also came out a winner, at least when measured against the expectations working against him. His closing answer was the best of the night. On the substance, I think he was often weak. But he didn’t do anything to lose the support of the people who are for him, and probably won a few more supporters as well.

You could say pretty much the same thing about Trump, though he had more bad moments than Carson did. But he has definitely become a better candidate and he’s still the best at the body language of these debates. His “Let Jeb speak” moment was a very unsubtle way of declaring he was the guy in charge on the stage. So was his peacemaking bit about how all the tax plans are good. Still, I don’t think he gave anyone who’s opposed to him (like me) a reason to change their mind.

Rand Paul, had a good night, but it doesn’t matter. His argument that spending on the military is “liberal” just doesn’t play. His bit on income inequality being highest in Democratic cities and states was great.

In the undercard debate, I thought Christie was the winner and I still think he’s got a non-trivial chance to do very well in New Hampshire.

One last huge winner: Fox Business. This was the best debate of them all. One can almost hear the forehead slapping at CNBC. “Oh that’s how it’s done.”






Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/426898/winners-losers-jonah-goldberg


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"I, Falcon91Wolvrn03, am a BIG FAT LIAR; so much so, that my pants are on fire."


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InvisibleShroom Detective
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Posts: 1,699
Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: Shroom Detective]
    #22507655 - 11/11/15 12:17 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Marco and Ted Show

Donald Trump and Ben Carson are the front-runners but Cruz and Rubio are waiting in the wings.  The field is starting to winnow.

By Robert Schlesinger
Nov. 11, 2015 | 12:45 a.m. EST


I'm telling you, when we enter the final primary stretch, the last men standing are going to be the first-term Cuban senators – Marco Rubio of Florida and Ted Cruz of Texas. (And while that's now certified conventional wisdom I suggested it more than a month ago.)

Watching the debates, you can see them honing their respective acts. Rubio is the sunny optimist who wants to be the face of the GOP's future. Cruz is the indignant voice of the angry conservative base. Both are practiced, polished and smooth.

Perversely, my favorite moment of the debate might have been Rubio's answer to a question about Hillary Clinton's qualifications: "That's a great question. And let me begin by answering it." He laughed, a humanizing moment that gave the impression that he was in on the joke. Then he smoothly pivoted to a classic Rubio America-is-wonderful-but-something-has-gone-wrong-but-we-will-give-everyone-hope-again spiel.

Cruz is the outraged prosecutor making his case against liberalism and big government – even if he failed to name all five federal agencies that he wants to eliminate.

His debate skills were on display not simply for the (mostly) fully developed sound-bites he recited through the debate but also in a terrific exchange he had with Ohio Gov. John Kasich over bailing out the banks. Cruz had said that in the event of another financial catastrophe he would "absolutely not" bail them out. Kasich landed a blow on Cruz on the difference between an executive and a legislator (or philosopher, as he implied), saying that executives find a way to get things done rather than just philosophizing while innocent, hard-working families lost their life savings.

But Cruz trapped Kasich in the real-world implications of his argument. Would he bail out the banks? No, Kasich tried to argue, he would help the hard-working people, not those who could afford to take a hit. Bailing out banks or government choosing winners and losers – neither sits well with GOP primary voters and Kasich got booed. Point Cruz.

Kasich tried several times to be the feisty adult in the room during the evening, but it was generally against party orthodoxy – no, you can't deport 11 million people, he argued, that's "a silly argument. It is not an adult argument. It makes no sense." It may make no sense but it's a popular position among Republican primary voters and people don't like being told that they're silly.

It seems unlikely that Kasich did much if anything to either slow the Rubio momentum or spur his own. The same can be said of Jeb! Bush, who finally seemed intent on expressing the exclamation point in his campaign logo. He had more energy and polish than he has had in previous debates (after the third Republican debate he talked about how he's not a performer … then went out and hired a performance coach) but he did little that will be remembered.

On the Cruz side – the conventional insurgents, or people who have political experience but style themselves as outsiders – Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul showed up with greater focus and verve tonight, but he was most forceful in areas that will not play well with the GOP, especially foreign and military policy. He blasted Rubio for being a "liberal" on military spending – that ramping it up would be irresponsible – and incredibly no one bothered with the obvious follow up: Was Ronald Reagan liberal on military spending?

[SEE: Editorial Cartoons on Donald Trump]

The moderators clearly learned their lessons from the CNBC debate, avoiding making themselves the story. After devoting the first segment entirely to economic policy (the supposed theme of both this debate and the last one), they frequently wandered into other policy areas, whether foreign policy, Ben Carson's credibility or immigration. And honestly that was fine. Much of the economic policy tended to be long strolls through fields of flowery platitudes with each candidate explaining why their economic plan – cut taxes and roll back regulations – is different than everyone else's (which would cut regulations and roll back taxes) and will prompt incredible (literally: not credible) economic growth. (Secret ingredient: Harnessing unicorn power.)

A weird dynamic has developed in the Republican presidential debates where the people leading in the polls – former reality TV star Donald Trump and pediatric neurosurgeon Ben Carson – tend to fade. As XM radio talk show host Michael Smerconish put it on Twitter, "If you hadnt paid attention to race, and just watched this tonight, you'd have no idea that Trump and Carson are frontrunners." Carson was largely missing from the debate and when he did speak his measured, meandering answers didn't do very much to instill confidence in his grasp of policy, whether in economics or foreign affairs (where China is, he suggested, involved in Syria). Trump, meanwhile, has toned his act down, and isn't a dominating figure.

And perhaps that's the advantage of being a nontraditional candidate – your appeal is not pegged to things like debate performances.

But at the same time it says something that neither front-runner was the target of sustained attacks. Carly Fiorina had a presumably prepared volley against Trump (and he in turn complained about her interrupting too much, which does nothing to help his sexist image) but for the most part the other candidates ignored the two front-runners. It’s a pretty strong indication that, as more candidates drop out or are demoted to the JV debate and as the months before the real voting begins dwindle, the conventional politicians still don’t think that Trump and Carson are going to last.




http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2015/11/11/ted-cruz-marco-rubio-hone-their-acts-in-fox-business-network-gop-debate


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InvisibleShroom Detective
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Registered: 07/02/14
Posts: 1,699
Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: Shroom Detective]
    #22507710 - 11/11/15 12:43 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Marco Rubio and :dancer:Ted Cruz:dancer:Help Themselves in Fox Business Debate

By Josh Voorhees


Unlike the past two Republican prime-time debates, there was no clear winner on the Fox Business stage Tuesday night. Sens. Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz, though, appeared to do the most to help themselves at a time when a chaotic nomination race is starting to slowly come into focus.


The two were poised and confident throughout the night, inserting themselves into the conversation when it served them and playing it safe when it didn’t. Rubio arrived in Milwaukee as many pundits and politicos’ favorite for the GOP nomination, and he’ll leave that way too. Cruz, meanwhile, stood out at a time when his slow-but-steady strategy is beginning to take hold.

In one of the most memorable exchanges of the evening, Rubio tangled with Rand Paul over defense spending by tossing red meat to his party’s hawks: “We can't even have an economy if we're not safe.” Cruz, then, muscled in to make his own play for the swath of the electorate between Rubio and Rand on foreign policy. “There is a middle ground that brings both of these together,” Cruz said. “You think defending this nation is expensive; try not defending it. That's a lot more expensive. But can you do that and pay for it?”

Rubio’s best moment may have been one that didn’t happen. During a lengthy and spirited exchange about immigration—a topic Rubio would prefer to avoid given his role in the Senate bill conservatives decry as “amnesty”—the moderators attempted several times to cut to the Florida senator. But thanks to several interruptions from Ohio Gov. John Kasich and former Celebrity Apprentice host Donald Trump, by the time it was Rubio’s turn to talk he was met with a different question about innovation and jobs. “That,” a relieved-looking Rubio responded, “is an excellent question.”

While Rubio was able to avoid his biggest weakness, Cruz was running toward his strength to fire up his base. When the moderators pressed the Texas firebrand on his proposal to raise the retirement age and cut benefits for future retirees, Cruz quickly dismissed the question to return to Jeb Bush’s earlier claim that the GOP hard-line positions on immigration would hurt them in the general election. “What was said was right,” Cruz bellowed, “the Democrats are laughing—because if Republicans join Democrats as the party of amnesty, we will lose.” The crowd in Wisconsin ate it up.

The two men lived up to their reputations as the smoothest orators in the GOP field, but neither was perfect on Tuesday. While rattling off the five federal agencies he’d like to cut, Cruz needed to list the same one twice to make his self-imposed quota. “The IRS, the Department of Commerce, the Department of Energy, the Department of Commerce, and HUD,” he said. (He blanked on the Department of Education.) Fortunately for him, though, the moderators moved on before he could go full Rick Perry. Rubio’s biggest misstep, meanwhile, came after a lengthy windup about the importance of being a good parent that ended with a distinctly different P-word. “The most important job any of us will [have],” he said, “is the job of being a president.”

Those small stumbles aside, though, both men dominated the stage in ways that they hadn’t before. Rubio is unlikely to benefit as much from his performance in Milwaukee as he did from Jeb’s performance in Boulder, Colorado, when the former establishment favorite tanked in the last debate, but he survived his first debate as everyone else’s favorite target. Cruz, meanwhile, expanded his debate repertoire beyond just bashing the liberal media—though he did manage to do that too. And both men were able to take big swipes at Hillary Clinton near the end of the debate, billing her as a successor to what they described as the failed policies of Barack Obama. Tuesday’s debate, then, likely didn’t change the dynamics of the GOP race. But for Rubio and Cruz, that’s the best prize they could have asked for.




http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/11/10/marco_rubio_ted_cruz_won_the_fox_business_debate.html


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"I, Falcon91Wolvrn03, am a BIG FAT LIAR; so much so, that my pants are on fire."


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InvisibleShroom Detective
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Registered: 07/02/14
Posts: 1,699
Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: Shroom Detective]
    #22507763 - 11/11/15 01:07 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

You may enjoy this older write-up, Star.  Cruz can effectively annihilate whomever is put forth by the Dems (would slash Hill to pieces):

   
Quote:

I Watched Ted Cruz Debate in College. Don’t Count Him Out.

“In that environment,” says a fellow debater, “he was cool, spectacular, a god.”


Sacha Zimmerman
Aug. 6, 2015, 9:02 a.m.

What do you stand for? Ted Cruz was asking me. We were sitting on a staircase in a towering, run-down New York City brownstone, at a college party. It was 1991. What would you fight for? he continued.

I remember thinking: Who asks questions like this? I was 18 and a freshman at Columbia. Cruz was a senior at Princeton.

Like, um, racism? I responded. I mean, against it.

My memory of the conversation is less than perfect all these years later, but I do recall that Cruz held me in a discomfiting gaze and said something about "every American" that was — to my horror — deeply conservative. I asked whether he was a Republican, and he responded enthusiastically in the affirmative. Cruz explained that we all grow more conservative as we age. He was thus on the political vanguard. Why wait to grow old, when you can be conservative now?

Cruz and I were at the same party because we were both college debaters — specifically, parliamentary debaters. For those of us who glommed on to this extracurricular activity, we had a kind of shadow life not apparent to our college-of-record friends. I took classes with my Columbia comrades, I roomed with them, I smoked pot with them — but on weekends, I was with my other friends: my debate friends.

From September until April, my teammates and I would rent cars and caravan to Northeast colleges — from as far south as Johns Hopkins to as far north as the University of Toronto. Every. Weekend. It was a circuit of hyper-verbal, hypercompetitive nerds who were all almost exclusively bound for law school. At the time, it seemed terribly cool. In retrospect, less so. There were about 20 participating schools, including all the usual Northeast suspects: Mt. Holyoke, Swarthmore, Harvard, Yale, Bryn Mawr. Schools had teams as small as two debaters or as large as 20 or more.

Columbia and Princeton had large debate squads with competitive reputations. But Cruz's status was legendary. He and his partner, David Panton, dominated the scene and ended up in more final rounds than any other team in the country their senior year. Cruz and I were friendly, but I have no doubt he looms much larger in my memory than I do in his. (His campaign did not make him available for an interview for this piece.) He was Michael Jordan in a game where I mostly sat on the bench.

Recently, I got in touch with eight of my old friends from that world and asked them for their memories of Cruz. Those conversations, as well as my own recollections, arguably shed some light on what we might see tonight when Cruz takes the stage at the first GOP presidential debate.

"PARLIAMENTARY" IS CODE for extemporaneous debate — no legions of notecards, citations, or research. We debated cases that were revealed moments before we were tasked with getting up to speak. If the opposing team hit me with a case in favor of, say, making Luxembourg a fully owned subsidiary of France, then I'd have to counter with why that was a terrible idea — right then and there, regardless of my pitiable knowledge of the topic or my personal politics. It was an olio of improvisation, current events, persuasion, and performance.

    When you had to face Cruz in debate, "you walked in assuming you would lose."

Ted Cruz was a king in Parliamentary Debate Land. And standing out in that crowd was not easy. Debate attracted swaths of wunderkinds who shared a geeky, cocky confidence; many of them came from a world of private high schools and rigorous speech teams. Nevertheless, says Raj Vinnakota — a Princeton debater who knew Cruz and who is now the CEO of the SEED Foundation in Washington, D.C. — when you had to face Cruz in debate, "you walked in assuming you would lose."

At Princeton, according to Vinnakota and Scott Angstreich — a regulatory and appellate lawyer in Washington — debate practice was taken seriously, and Cruz was an excellent mentor, providing feedback and helping to strengthen younger members of the team. "In that environment," says Vinnakota, who was two years younger than Cruz, "he was cool, spectacular, a god."

He was excellent at connecting with a large audience (think: machine-gun bacon). Dae Levine — a former Columbia debater in Cruz's year who is now a communications strategist living in Australia and who has twice been the chair of Democrats Abroad — thinks of it as a kind of bewitching political narcissism: "It's not visual. It's not: Look at me. It's: Listen to me. No, believe me. No, follow me." Indeed, emotion — not just intelligence — was very much in Cruz's skill set. Angstreich (who is Jewish) recalls a debate that he was arguing involving the Holocaust. Before Angstreich got up to speak, Cruz leaned over to him and whispered, "Be outraged!"

Cruz also frequently relied on his now-well-worn origin story in debates — his father's epic journey from Cuban freedom-fighter to penniless foreigner in America. "Everybody knew Ted Cruz's father's story," says Vinnakota. "We could all recite it!" No one, I think, should be surprised to hear this narrative tonight or in future GOP debates.

It's also worth pointing out — with Cruz facing long odds in the GOP primaries, and with other candidates at tonight's debate commanding a lot more attention — that Cruz's eloquence proved to be a great equalizer for him when his back was against the wall. "I've experienced and witnessed when Ted has pulled out debates purely at the force of his rhetoric," Vinnakota says, remembering one debate in particular that he would ultimately win. The other team, Vinnakota recalls, had "crushed Ted's argument." By the time Cruz arrived onstage to speak a final time, the case was "dead on arrival." "But Ted gave one of the most impassioned, flourished speeches. His focused anger and the power of his rhetoric just won over the crowd. If you were flowing the argument" — charting the debate — "he didn't say anything. You have to be impressed by it. He is a gifted, gifted speaker."

Cruz's extraordinary intelligence was very much his calling card — on and off the debate stage. At one tournament, I recall a dozen or so of us being splayed out across twin beds, heads resting against white plaster walls, drinking bottled beer. Young men (who constituted most of that world) with loosened ties and wrinkled chinos sat rapt: Cruz, even then wearing boots-and-a-suit in that awkward way of all Texas politicians, was holding court on Kant's categorical imperative — his moral absolutism apparently already fully formed.

THE CHALLENGE FOR Cruz — which The New York Times highlighted several months ago in a piece about his debating career — was that he wasn't necessarily likable. "I remember him as a scary, driven machine who fought a protracted, bloody land war for total victory," says Ted Niblock, a Johns Hopkins University debater in Cruz's year who is now general counsel for a clean-energy startup.

Which makes it all the more important to bring up Cruz's best friend and college debate partner, David Panton. Panton, a Jamaican student whom everyone remembers fondly, was the friendly George W. Bush to Cruz's Dick Cheney.

    "I remember him as a scary, driven machine who fought a protracted, bloody land war for total victory."

"Panton was the foil," says Vinnakota. "He was an equal member of the duo. But Dave was raised around needing to understand social graces; he could pull off anything. It had the complementary effect of them working really well together."

"No recollection of Cruz is complete without remembering Dave Panton," agrees Niblock. "He was super-smart, funny, and even somewhat self-effacing. I have always suspected — although of course he could never admit it — that Panton realized early on that the way to seem even more likable was to stand next to Cruz."

Panton, now the chairman of his own private-equity firm, has remained a loyal friend as Cruz's political stardom has taken off. (He did not respond to requests for comment.) Cruz and Panton were both debate partners and roommates. And the evidence for how well their partnership worked could be found in their suite at Princeton, which was brimming over with "hardware" — the trophies, plaques, gavels (yes, really, honorific gavels), and other awards garnered at debate tournaments. The room was positively dripping with silent applause.

I once watched Cruz and Panton slay a team from the University of Pennsylvania in a final round. Penn ran what we called a "hypothetical syllogism." It went something like this: You've just graduated, and before you can even find a job, your college alumni association asks you for money — don't give them any. Admittedly, it's a silly case. Panton gave the expected arguments about how fortunate we all were to have access to renowned institutions and how we should not be ingrate elitists. But Cruz crushed it. He looked meaningfully at the audience. I don't recall his precise words, but here's how I remember what he said: Even if — he paused and shook his head with a disbelieving chuckle. Even if you think your college did nothing for you, or insulted you — he paused again and then spit out: Leave a penny. He pointed down and to the side, as though he were pointing at a lone, nasty penny. Tape a penny to the form and send it back. If you really hate them, then send a message.

The question is: After Cruz brings the pain, can he also channel Panton's charm?

BACK IN 1991, a small war was waged in a crowded auditorium at Yale. The war came disguised as an election. At stake was the presidency of the American Parliamentary Debate Association. The contenders were Ted Cruz, Dae Levine, and Ted Niblock.

They couldn't have been more different. Cruz was the straight-laced champion looking for another win. Levine was the clever, alternative chick who oozed New York City cool — and who was losing to Cruz. Cue the wild card: Niblock entered the race as a Cruz protest candidate — representing what he calls "an irreverent, counterculture" style of debate that was frank but very effective.

"I was not as smart, committed, or skilled as Ted was," says Niblock. "I was completely random and unpredictable. You can't outsmart a truly crazy person." That's why a group of anti-Cruzniks drafted Niblock into the race. Sure it would be funny, but these folks also really did not like Cruz.

"He seemed to be the presumptive winner," says Niblock. "This was on top of his frequent tournament victories, which were earned in the most grinding, methodical, joyless way possible. This might be my biggest problem with him: He took all the fun out of it. He prepared and prepared, came to the tournament on the weekend, executed his plan, and then went back to Princeton to take the fun out of something else."

It was a crazy day — Niblock's bizarre, platformless entry seemed somehow exhilarating. Voting for him was like breaking the rules, free-falling through an election that was dazzlingly unimportant to just about everyone but Cruz. The Columbia team stood behind our own and backed Levine, but Niblock had delivered a shot of madness to Cruz's method. "My only electable quality was that I was not Ted Cruz," says Niblock.

Ultimately, giddiness and Niblock prevailed. Levine and Cruz were co-vice-presidents. It is, to the best of our collective knowledge, the last election Cruz ever lost. "I think he's spent his whole life trying to make sure he doesn't lose another election," says Levine. Niblock agrees. "Every moment of his public life has been carefully calculated to bring him to this," he says. "And if Senator Cruz has decided he wants to be president, he has a plan."

He has a plan: Everyone I interviewed for this article is solid on this point. We debaters understand how he thinks — how he sees a multitude of situations and consequences unfolding in his mind's eye. He's a politician: It is all stage time now. And starting tonight, a lot will depend on just how well he debates.




http://www.nationaljournal.com/s/70470/i-watched-ted-cruz-debate-college-dont-count-him-out


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"I, Falcon91Wolvrn03, am a BIG FAT LIAR; so much so, that my pants are on fire."


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: Shroom Detective]
    #22507964 - 11/11/15 04:14 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

It is fascinating how the media and both the right and left have characterized him as some kind of Conrgressional Troll.  When the right establishment went after him for 'shutting down the government' it basically confirmed something I knew--that most politicians don't give a fuck about anything except keeping the Gravy Train rolling in DC.

I hear people all the time talking about how he is 'bought and paid for' I'm like WHATTTT????  He's the biggest enemy of Crony Capitalism the Big Government Boys have.

The political class i.e. the entrenched elites do NOT want his message to be heard lest it start resonating all across the spectrum of voters from both parties as well as independents.

He is also anti-drug war and believes states rights take precedence concerning drug laws.


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22508264 - 11/11/15 08:01 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Trump stayed silent and was non-combative in a debate where nobody respected any time limit. Then again, given the level of details and the amount of specific numbers given on specific subjects, Trump was smart to shut up because he obviously doesn't know these details.

Then again. too many details confuse people.

Sick burn by Rand Paul on Trump.

Fiorina didn't answer the questions she was asked, instead she just wandered away from the question with the first 3 words.

Rubio is a sweet talker. He's the one to watch.

The rest just seemed like people desperate for time.

Oh yeah. Carson... I dunno, everytime he talked I found myself doing something else. He needs charisma.


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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: Patlal]
    #22508717 - 11/11/15 10:23 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Rand Paul really did make trump look silly.  And the more I see of Trump the more I notice how superficial he is.  He says a whole bunch of stuff real fast when he answers and it is 99% platitudes.

Kasich looks like a complete idiot.  What a loser, and Bush is almost as bad.  The rest of the candidates more or less, make one realize just how fucking bad McCain and Romney were as candidates, horrible picks.

The people that vote R as well as independents, to a large part, don't want another Bush or a RINO, and definitely don't want any BIG GOVERNMENT candidates including money wasting democrats.

It's time for Carl Rove to pick up his ball and go home because the party is over for big spending, big government, RINO establishment Republicans.


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Onlineqman
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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22508744 - 11/11/15 10:34 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
It is fascinating how the media and both the right and left have characterized him as some kind of Conrgressional Troll.  When the right establishment went after him for 'shutting down the government' it basically confirmed something I knew--that most politicians don't give a fuck about anything except keeping the Gravy Train rolling in DC.

I hear people all the time talking about how he is 'bought and paid for' I'm like WHATTTT????  He's the biggest enemy of Crony Capitalism the Big Government Boys have.

The political class i.e. the entrenched elites do NOT want his message to be heard lest it start resonating all across the spectrum of voters from both parties as well as independents.

He is also anti-drug war and believes states rights take precedence concerning drug laws.




http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/21/politics/ted-cruz-2016-heidi-cruz-fundraiser/


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: qman]
    #22508899 - 11/11/15 11:18 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
It is fascinating how the media and both the right and left have characterized him as some kind of Conrgressional Troll.  When the right establishment went after him for 'shutting down the government' it basically confirmed something I knew--that most politicians don't give a fuck about anything except keeping the Gravy Train rolling in DC.

I hear people all the time talking about how he is 'bought and paid for' I'm like WHATTTT????  He's the biggest enemy of Crony Capitalism the Big Government Boys have.

The political class i.e. the entrenched elites do NOT want his message to be heard lest it start resonating all across the spectrum of voters from both parties as well as independents.

He is also anti-drug war and believes states rights take precedence concerning drug laws.




http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/21/politics/ted-cruz-2016-heidi-cruz-fundraiser/




That is his wife's fundraiser.  Show me one vote of his or one speech where he advocates giving money to big corps.  and note this from the article:

Those who have known her longest note how different she is from her husband, whose political persona is defined by an unyielding ideology that critics see as arrogant and inflexible.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22508924 - 11/11/15 11:25 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


The people that vote R as well as independents, to a large part, don't want another Bush or a RINO, and definitely don't want any BIG GOVERNMENT candidates including money wasting democrats.

It's time for Carl Rove to pick up his ball and go home because the party is over for big spending, big government, RINO establishment Republicans.




Completely agree! It's time to back to "real" constitutional conservatism, smaller govt is what even some Obama voters have started to realize is the best way forward. many more are waking up everyday, it's a great thing to see the change coming,


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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Onlineqman
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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22509263 - 11/11/15 12:57 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
It is fascinating how the media and both the right and left have characterized him as some kind of Conrgressional Troll.  When the right establishment went after him for 'shutting down the government' it basically confirmed something I knew--that most politicians don't give a fuck about anything except keeping the Gravy Train rolling in DC.

I hear people all the time talking about how he is 'bought and paid for' I'm like WHATTTT????  He's the biggest enemy of Crony Capitalism the Big Government Boys have.

The political class i.e. the entrenched elites do NOT want his message to be heard lest it start resonating all across the spectrum of voters from both parties as well as independents.

He is also anti-drug war and believes states rights take precedence concerning drug laws.




http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/21/politics/ted-cruz-2016-heidi-cruz-fundraiser/




That is his wife's fundraiser.  Show me one vote of his or one speech where he advocates giving money to big corps.  and note this from the article:

Those who have known her longest note how different she is from her husband, whose political persona is defined by an unyielding ideology that critics see as arrogant and inflexible.




She's a big wig at Goldman Sachs.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: qman]
    #22509286 - 11/11/15 01:04 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

So?  Does HE support too big to fail, corporate cronyism, earmarking, and if so, show me his voting record.


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Onlineqman
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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22509346 - 11/11/15 01:24 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
So?  Does HE support too big to fail, corporate cronyism, earmarking, and if so, show me his voting record.




Who his biggest supporter?  A billionaire Wall Street hedge fund big boy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/11/us/politics/hedge-fund-magnaterobert-mercer-emerges-as-a-generous-backer-of-ted-cruz.html?_r=0


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Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: qman]
    #22509401 - 11/11/15 01:39 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
So?  Does HE support too big to fail, corporate cronyism, earmarking, and if so, show me his voting record.




Who his biggest supporter?  A billionaire Wall Street hedge fund big boy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/11/us/politics/hedge-fund-magnaterobert-mercer-emerges-as-a-generous-backer-of-ted-cruz.html?_r=0





OK.  Show me a senate vote that gives handouts to corps, or supports big banks.  Of course he will take their contributions, the question is will he give quid-pro-quo?  He hasn't shown signs of it.

By the way, big banks/corps give every candidate with a chance contributions--on both sides of the fence.  They are hedging their bets.


And with the last 4 or 5 presidents in mind, why would anyone think that someone really is going to stop the gravy train?

Voting record is the best indicator of someones postion.


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InvisibleShroom Detective
Stranger
Registered: 07/02/14
Posts: 1,699
Re: The Debate is Over..... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22511157 - 11/11/15 07:48 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Viewers of Tuesday’s Republican presidential debate are buzzing about the fact that a trailer for Michael Bay’s controversial new film film about the Benghazi terrorist attack aired on the Fox Business channel prior to GOP front-runner Ben Carson’s criticism of then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s handling of the 2012 tragedy...






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