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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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the destiny of man * 1
    #22502167 - 11/09/15 07:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

One could make the argument that we were not destined for the stars, or a utopian civilized future, given that the planet is four and a half billion years old and all of this has happened in ten thousand years.  That it is an aberration, a flash, a hiccup -- not a destiny.  One could also make the argument that, well, here we are, and it has happened, and since it has, it was probably bound to be like this sooner or later anyway.  Burroughs said wisely that the evil was there -- waiting.

So what do you think?  Did it have to go this way no matter what, or was our particular type of civilization an accident?


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: the destiny of man [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22502356 - 11/09/15 07:53 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Our civilization is the product of geniuses. No one really knows how they worked it out. We don't really know how we got here. Newton, Einstein, Shroedinger... how did they do it? However, lately it's not really about major breakthroughs and genius but it's all a slow, slogged out review of a review of a report of a research event that contributes SOME interesting perspective. Not that it's bad, but genius is mostly all in the art sector now. Don't know how that's going to go.


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My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: the destiny of man [Re: circastes]
    #22502865 - 11/09/15 10:06 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

It is only a temporary condition.
When the sun evolves into a red giant all life on earth gets fried.
Won't be for awhile though.
So 'destiny' or not there is an appointment with the reaper.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: the destiny of man [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22502946 - 11/09/15 10:33 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well said DQ.

If you ask me, western humankind's steps seem to me to be in shifting paradigms. The shifting paradigm, to me, is not just a change in domain, conveniently laid out in two dimensions and modeled or formulated like oragami in front of us.

What is this domain or new dimension but "a dangerous across, a dangerous on-the-way, a dangerous looking-back, a dangerous shuddering and stopping." It is embodied. And I believe Nietzsche was also insightful where he said elsewhere, that westerners are a "tensed bow"; the cleverness and outbound expression which we cannot unbend, but only unbound.

I am not sure I would call it optimism, if he were right! What I wonder, personally, (and maybe it is my harangue) is whether we can understand our history, and where we come from. It seems to me that we come out of the nullity and contradiction and "obseletion" of a quaint past.

Your post reminds me a bit of something Hannah Arendt wrote:

Quote:


In 1957, an earth-born object made by man was launched into the universe, where for some weeks it circled the earth according
to the same laws of gravitation that swing and keep in motion the celestial bodies—the sun, the moon, and the stars.

To be sure, the man-made satellite was no moon or star, no heavenly body which could follow its circling path for a time span that to us mortals, bound by earthly time, lasts from eternity to eternity. Yet, for a time it managed to stay in the skies; it dwelt and moved in the proximity of the heavenly bodies as though it had been admitted tentatively to their sublime company.

This event, second in importance to no other, not even to the splitting of the atom, would have been greeted with unmitigated joy if it had not been for the uncomfortable military and political
circumstances attending it. But, curiously enough, this joy was not
triumphal; it was not pride or awe at the tremendousness of human power and mastery which rilled the hearts of men, who now, when they looked up from the earth toward the skies, could behold there a thing of their own making.

The immediate reaction, expressed on the spur of the moment, was relief about the first "step toward escape from men's imprisonment to the earth." And this strange statement, far from being the accidental slip of some American reporter, unwittingly echoed the extraordinary line which, more than twenty years ago, had been carved on the funeral obelisk for one of Russia's great scientists: "Mankind will not remain bound to the earth forever."

Such feelings have been commonplace for some time. They show that men everywhere are by no means slow to catch up and adjust to scientific discoveries and technical developments, but that, on
the contrary, they have outsped them by decades. Here, as in other respects, science has realized and affirmed what men anticipated in dreams that were neither wild nor idle. What is new is only that one of this country's most respectable newspapers finally brought to its front page what up to then had been buried in the highly non-respectable literature of science fiction (to which, unfortunately, nobody yet has paid the attention it deserves as a vehicle of mass sentiments and mass desires).

The banality of the statement should not make us overlook how extraordinary in fact it was; for although Christians have spoken of the earth as a vale of tears and philosophers have looked upon their body as a prison of mind or soul, nobody in the history of mankind has ever conceived of the earth as a prison for men's bodies or shown such eagerness to go literally from here to the moon. Should the emancipation and secularization of the modern age, which began with a turning-away, not necessarily from God, but from a god who was the Father of men in heaven, end with an even more fateful repudiation of an Earth who was the Mother of all living creatures under the sky?

Hannah Arendt; The Human Condition




I do not right at this moment have great optimism or investments in the enlightenment or culminations that westerners seek, from the Greek Athenians to modernity. Or maybe I have to. This denomination of western democracy, and the particular art of truth which we have conferred upon, which came along with it (truth and its representation you could say) has its virtues and ideals, which I appreciate, as I imagine I must in good faith.

If I could say that this is distinctive for us, I personally would call this nothing other than essential. Our conception of form was from Plato and Aristotle's time exemplified non-accidentally, by chairs and tables, or techne the craftsman's work. I would not say this suggests technology per se is essential to western humanity, but it is no accident that nearly all of Plato's dialogues and Aristotle's chief works Physics, and Metaphysics were significantly some manner of circumspection on the meaning of techne, the skill art or trade of our artisans.

Cartesianism, or modern western philosophy, suggests the involution of an individualism as an ego, or the subject we are, in the dimensions of extended space, and time, which we perceive. Like upon a grid of matrices, we see physical reality as working according to the correspondence of mathematical language, and physical laws, and the cleavage together which is the determination of mechanism.

I would say this involvement of ourselves with what through these imagined apertures we see in an "external" world, is clearly how we view everything, because originally, in essence, we have an extrapolative conception of form. It is also nihilistic, because the Cartesian doubt was parasitic on what it came out of. The method of doubting the subject of knowledge, interposes an additional subject we are in this. These two subjects introduced two substances of mind and matter; a dualism much more convoluted than matter and form. What it describes is a ghost in mechanical world, how we have slowly become more involved in a technical or mechanical world.

Whether or not Western humanity can fathom having an essential way of being, as it is in relative to other cultures' we have our distinct way of seeing things, of course, that we have lived by. This essence is either gaurded carefully by us as our destiny, or lost. I think we have mostly lost it. I think what we are supposed to do is keep working, perhaps modestly, in correspondence to this, on our same democratic form of enlightenment.


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: the destiny of man [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #22503014 - 11/09/15 11:04 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
It is only a temporary condition.
When the sun evolves into a red giant all life on earth gets fried.
Won't be for awhile though.
So 'destiny' or not there is an appointment with the reaper.



It's a bit moot because we've come this far in, what 20,000 years, and really far in the last 2000, and really, really, really far in the last 100... the red giant thing won't be for, what, 100 million years?


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: the destiny of man [Re: circastes]
    #22531410 - 11/16/15 09:11 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
It is only a temporary condition.
When the sun evolves into a red giant all life on earth gets fried.
Won't be for awhile though.
So 'destiny' or not there is an appointment with the reaper.



It's a bit moot because we've come this far in, what 20,000 years, and really far in the last 2000, and really, really, really far in the last 100... the red giant thing won't be for, what, 100 million years?




Saying it's moot is like smoking and saying I won't get caner...
well not quite ...
lets try again
how about it's like polluting the earth cause it won't effect you, while bringing up your kids to be responsible
again not a perfect analogy ...
the point is rather that folks want to project meaning into the universe ...
and the universe answers: "I don't give a shit about you!"

so since Questions about "destiny" are about 'meaning' it does seem relevant to me


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OfflineMythosaur
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Re: the destiny of man [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22532452 - 11/16/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Wow!
First time here and ran into THE question. No foreplay I guess.

Well, seeking for a deeper meaning and a purpose in everything seems to be an anomaly of the human brain. At some point we evolved into thinking creatures (as we have defined "thinking").

I wonder if we could eliminate the fear of death, loss and all whether all these questions would still have the same importance for us.


Edited by Mythosaur (11/16/15 04:58 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: the destiny of man [Re: Mythosaur]
    #22535806 - 11/17/15 02:00 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

as posted by Dave Whitlock, April 7, 2014, in a comment on a science article:

"Humans have hyperactive agency detection, an artifact of sensory systems evolved to detect and avoid predators, where a false positive is much better than a false negative. Human perception and cognition is biased to perceive and find “agency” or “the cause”, even when there is not one (sic). It is cognitive bias that causes humans to posit an immaterial mind.

The mind is an illusion, albeit a persistent one.


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