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DaveyJones6911
Nonconformist


Registered: 09/08/15
Posts: 690
Loc: EU
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lamps and lighting
#22499587 - 11/09/15 09:30 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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so i'm thinking of starting some ethnos again after a long time, and i am wondering what's new in the world of artificial lighting.
in the last decade people apparently figured out that a 6500k bulb is best for mushrooms, is there any plant that happens to like this colour?
what types of lamps and light colours are you guys using, and what are you using them on?
-------------------- Creativity is a dangerous thing in the eyes of those who don't have any.
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Spanishfly
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Registered: 03/19/12
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I use a 4 X 1026W, 5800K, fusion lamp. For ALL my adult cacti, which are mostly Mexican desert cacti. For seed raising I use a pair of 20W, 6000K fluoros. But I am probably old-fashioned - the young thrusters like LEDs I believe.
Edited by Spanishfly (11/09/15 09:45 AM)
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DaveyJones6911
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Registered: 09/08/15
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what does this mean?
Quote:
Spanishfly said: 4 X 1026W
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cowsRmeat
Don't step on the MomeRaths



Registered: 04/23/14
Posts: 3,153
Loc: Wonderland
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He is referring to the sun.
As far as indoor lighting, I use a mixture of 6500k CFLs and tubes. Anything I grow indoors (other than my usual houseplants, of course) gets put under these. Everything from salvia, to cacti, to cacti seedlings, caapi, psychotria, everything.
I also use the same lights for starting herbs and veggies over the winter and spring. 
I just don't have the budget to jump into any larger and pricier lighting systems...
-------------------- One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. 'Which road do I take?' she asked. 'Where do you want to go?' was his response. 'I don't know', Alice answered. 'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'
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Spanishfly
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Quote:
DaveyJones6911 said: what does this mean?
Quote:
Spanishfly said: 4 X 1026W
It is index notation for 400,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Watts.
My little joke - all my adult plants only see sunlight.
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DaveyJones6911
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Registered: 09/08/15
Posts: 690
Loc: EU
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thxz
sunlight isn't much of an option for me for certain plants, as we just don't get enough here in holland. (currently getting 8 hours a day or so)
anybody ever try to grow weed with 6500k bulbs?
-------------------- Creativity is a dangerous thing in the eyes of those who don't have any.
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cowsRmeat
Don't step on the MomeRaths



Registered: 04/23/14
Posts: 3,153
Loc: Wonderland
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I think there is actually someone on the forums doing this right now.... I may be wrong though... I don't grow it myself so IDK really.
-------------------- One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree. 'Which road do I take?' she asked. 'Where do you want to go?' was his response. 'I don't know', Alice answered. 'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'
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invitro

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
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Quote:
DaveyJones6911 said: thxz
sunlight isn't much of an option for me for certain plants, as we just don't get enough here in holland. (currently getting 8 hours a day or so)
anybody ever try to grow weed with 6500k bulbs?
Fine for veg. I haven't tried in flowering.
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Spanishfly
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Quote:
DaveyJones6911 said: thxz
sunlight isn't much of an option for me for certain plants, as we just don't get enough here in holland. (currently getting 8 hours a day or so)
anybody ever try to grow weed with 6500k bulbs?
A cloudy sky is brighter than any indoor light. And a higher colour temperature. If you do a Google you can compare lux readings for different sky conditions and different lights. And currently ALL of us in the Northern Hemisphere are getting less than 12 hours daylight.
-------------------- I am currently BANNED from using Private Messages - so can anyone who wants to contact me do it via my Journal thread. Link is https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23831115 Maybe some mod or whatever might think this has now been long enough.
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P.Zappatecorum
Lophophilus



Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 2,094
Loc: Cactaceae
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Quote:
Spanishfly said:
Quote:
DaveyJones6911 said: thxz
sunlight isn't much of an option for me for certain plants, as we just don't get enough here in holland. (currently getting 8 hours a day or so)
anybody ever try to grow weed with 6500k bulbs?
A cloudy sky is brighter than any indoor light. And a higher colour temperature. If you do a Google you can compare lux readings for different sky conditions and different lights. And currently ALL of us in the Northern Hemisphere are getting less than 12 hours daylight.
Lights never have the exact color of the sun but you can get 90% there with good lighting. If you live far enough north then the light intensity on a cloudy day in winter is far, far lower than a good grow light. I don't think you comprehend how dark it gets in the winter once you reach a certain latitude and what kind of gloom certain areas receive. Where I live, the sun doesn't even shine bright enough to give you your daily dose of vitamin D in the winter and people have to take supplements. I've actually been doing a lot better with that since I got my growlights because on the darkest day I can go look at my cacti and feel some near sunshine coming off that light. It's a real life saver. There are even local companies that specialize in putting halogen, xenon and other high intensity lighting into people's houses so that they don't blow their brains out from SAD in the winter.
@OP, what kind of plants are you wanting to grow? I have a T5 flourescent and it is good for b.caapi, pereskiopsis and globular cacti, although trichocereus can't get very thick under it and while I don't grow weed I don't think it would cut it for that either. It really depends on what you want to grow, how much you want to spend and what kind of heat/electrical output you want to deal with.
Edited by P.Zappatecorum (11/10/15 09:44 AM)
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DaveyJones6911
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Registered: 09/08/15
Posts: 690
Loc: EU
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for weed i was planning a windowsil grow with some autoflowering lowryder or something like that. but i am considering setting up something with cfl lights or maybe LED lights. but i think i will take that question to the weed forums.
i plan to start a bunch of cacti from seed, as the local cactus club sells seeds donated by members for ridiculously low prices. and i want to get my hands on a salvia cutting. beyond that i'm considering getting back into carnivorous plants.
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P.Zappatecorum
Lophophilus



Registered: 10/15/12
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Yeah, the weed guys are the ones to ask about weed. I like my 4' 4 tube T5, my plants probably won't grow super thick in diameter but for most ornamental, globular cacti and other tropical ethonbotanicals it is an affordable and well rounded option, doesn't give off too much heat and doesn't suck electricity. I think I paid around $140.
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El Torcho
Time for tea?


Registered: 04/16/15
Posts: 1,365
Loc: Lone Pine Hill
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Fluoros will work for weed, but the buds won't be very dense and growth will be slower. I'm still not a fan of LED's. A buddy of mine worked up a prototype of an LED which looks much, much better than anything on the market today using large white light LED's, instead of the little multi-colored things that cost an arm and a leg.
Look into a Ceramic Metal Halide bulb to more represent a full sun spectrum. They run on magnetic HPS ballasts. It would be a good supplement for a window sill, as it won't look like a parking lot in your window. I did a complete grow with a 400w CMH and was pleased with the results. But nothing tops an HPS.
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"Well it sounds trivial, but the key insight is . . . . . you don't know shit" ~Dennis McKenna "There is more to human existence and to reality itself than science can ever give us access to." ~His Holiness, The 14th Dalai Lama
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invitro

Registered: 05/03/13
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Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
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Quote:
Spanishfly said:
A cloudy sky is brighter than any indoor light.
Really incorrect info here. A cloudy day is probably going to be (far) under 10,000 FC, which can easily be beat by some strong lights.
Edited by invitro (11/10/15 11:00 AM)
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Spanishfly
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Registered: 03/19/12
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Quote:
P.Zappatecorum said: I don't think you comprehend how dark it gets in the winter once you reach a certain latitude and what kind of gloom certain areas receive.
That one aimed at me?? LOL, I lived in Scotland for 8 years - and a cloudy sky there still has a ´standard´ light intensity of 5,000 lux (1 lux = 1 lumen m-2) - but this is very variable and an overcast sky can reach 35,000 lux in high summer. Clear sunny skies can produce 100,000 lux.
What is not widely appreciated is how very, very much lower are light levels we use indoors. A brightly lit office has about 400 lux. A warehouse aisle about 100 lux. To read requires just 50 lux. This is not widely appreciated because the human eye is totally useless for judging differences of light intensity.
A 20W T5 or T8 fluorescent tube, commonly used to raise seedlings, has a light ouput of 1,000 lumens. You would need serried ranks of these to illuminate a room to the brightness of an overcast sky.
Artificial lighting just cannot compare to the intensity of natural light - if you want to avoid etiolation give your plants natural light. Put them in a cold frame or greenhouse - I did that when I grew in the UK - had to use a paraffin heater in winter to keep the frost off.
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Edited by Spanishfly (11/10/15 02:47 PM)
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Spanishfly
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Registered: 03/19/12
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Quote:
DaveyJones6911 said: for weed i was planning a windowsil grow with some autoflowering lowryder or something like that. but i am considering setting up something with cfl lights or maybe LED lights. but i think i will take that question to the weed forums.
Of course people use artificial lights for weed - there is only ONE reason for this - weed is ILLEGAL and you have to keep it out of sight. The stuff grows far better under God´s sun.
-------------------- I am currently BANNED from using Private Messages - so can anyone who wants to contact me do it via my Journal thread. Link is https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23831115 Maybe some mod or whatever might think this has now been long enough.
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Spanishfly
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Re: lamps and lighting [Re: invitro]
#22505427 - 11/10/15 02:40 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
invitro said:
Quote:
Spanishfly said:
A cloudy sky is brighter than any indoor light.
Really incorrect info here. A cloudy day is probably going to be (far) under 10,000 FC, which can easily be beat by some strong lights.
I would be a bit more impressed with some actual data - rather than the expression some strong lights. Also I think all lamp suppliers are now fully converted to SI units.
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invitro

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
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Quote:
Spanishfly said:
Quote:
invitro said:
Quote:
Spanishfly said:
A cloudy sky is brighter than any indoor light.
Really incorrect info here. A cloudy day is probably going to be (far) under 10,000 FC, which can easily be beat by some strong lights.
I would be a bit more impressed with some actual data - rather than the expression some strong lights. Also I think all lamp suppliers are now fully converted to SI units.
(I still use FC so you'll have to convert that to lux if you so desire) I have a light meter, I know that cloudy light is weaker than optimal for budding. It doesn't matter what kind of light or what kind of bulb or what kind of equipment were talking about, if you reach 10k you got the job done. Cloudy might get you by for veg... but decent lighting can blow away cloudy light.
Edited by invitro (11/10/15 03:45 PM)
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spaceman101
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Registered: 01/18/13
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Thanks for the info Spanish
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invitro

Registered: 05/03/13
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Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
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Weed WILL NOT grow better in cloudy light, than the guy who has the indoor set-up. This is so basic.
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P.Zappatecorum
Lophophilus



Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 2,094
Loc: Cactaceae
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Quote:
Spanishfly said:
Quote:
DaveyJones6911 said: for weed i was planning a windowsil grow with some autoflowering lowryder or something like that. but i am considering setting up something with cfl lights or maybe LED lights. but i think i will take that question to the weed forums.
Of course people use artificial lights for weed - there is only ONE reason for this - weed is ILLEGAL and you have to keep it out of sight. The stuff grows far better under God´s sun.
You just don't know what you're talking about, Spanish. Weed is legal in my state and people use grow lights in winter because the sun is not sufficient, even if you had a heated greenhouse. Did you grow plants when you were in the UK, or did you just start gardening when you moved south?
I've lived in a mediterranean climate like you have and everything you say is true, for people living in tropical, subtropical and mediterranean climates in the lowest, near tropical temperate zones. In cooler, northern temperate climates and polar regions, the sun is only better than lights for a couple months a year in summer. The rest of the year you have to supplement or just grow straight under lights.
Winter sun here is not as strong as good grow lights, period, my plants etiolating in the window and not under lights is proof enough of that.
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invitro

Registered: 05/03/13
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Re: lamps and lighting [Re: invitro]
#22505741 - 11/10/15 03:54 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Here is the deal, full sunlight will get you between 5000 and 15000 FC. It's a wide range and there exceptions to the rule because of everyone has their own latitude which changes things a lot, that's why I was not giving number initially... Cloudy light cuts that down by 50-70% (rough estimate- depends on how thick the clouds are).
Spanish fly I know all that about room lighting and seedling lighting, what you don't seem to understand is that 600 and 1000 MH or HPS are very much stronger and are the standard for flowering.
Here's what probably happened, you tried flowering under t5s or t8s and compared that to outdoor, and your outdoor was better. You need better lights to finish indoor, t8s just can't throw off enough light, not even close not even with a bank of them. Depending on the sun especially in Scotland will land you sub-par results compared to a proper indoor grow. In Scotland you might be giving the plants what the need in full sunlight in the peak of summer, maybe maybe. The rest of the year your crippling your potential.
Even in the tropics, cloudy light below what you want, seriously.
Edited by invitro (11/10/15 03:57 PM)
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invitro

Registered: 05/03/13
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Re: lamps and lighting [Re: invitro]
#22506224 - 11/10/15 05:33 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Even in the tropics you're still struggling with an outdoor grow because the daylight hours are limited. At the equator you have about 12 hours of sunlight, well the first few hours and the last few hours the sun is low on the horizon so your only getting 7-8 hours of strong sunlight. You pretty much need to supplement with lights wherever you are if you want to achieve your potential. You can do OK outdoors, you can't beat supplemented light for the true potential of your plant.
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Spanishfly
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Re: lamps and lighting [Re: invitro]
#22508004 - 11/11/15 04:55 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Let´s not get sidetracked into weed - there are lots of economic and other reasons people use lights for that all year.
All I can say to the OP as far as his cacti are concerned is do what the professionals do - the nurseries all over Europe who grow cacti for profit.
Put them in a greenhouse or frame (doesn´t have to be expensive)and give them as much natural light as possible - a Google will show you that even a cloudy day is as good as any artificial light - it appears that those who want to shout loudest cannot back their comments up with any real data. Keep them frost free with a small paraffin heater. Keep them dry and let them rest and mature the soft growth of last summer.
That is the advice I have from all of the many renowned growers and expert authors of publications on cactus cultivation that I have acquired over the years - the Lambs, the Maces, Pilbeam, Anderson et al, dating from 1961. All UK based as it happens, and people who DEFINITELY know what they are talking about. That is what I did when I grew in Scotland - and I NEVER suffered from any etiolation.
I have nothing further to add to this thread.
Edited by Spanishfly (11/11/15 05:29 AM)
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Spanishfly
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Quote:
P.Zappatecorum said:
You just don't know what you're talking about, Spanish. Did you grow plants when you were in the UK, or did you just start gardening when you moved south?
Apparently you are so keen to insult me that you can´t actually be bothered to fully read my responses.
-------------------- I am currently BANNED from using Private Messages - so can anyone who wants to contact me do it via my Journal thread. Link is https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23831115 Maybe some mod or whatever might think this has now been long enough.
Edited by Spanishfly (11/11/15 05:30 AM)
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invitro

Registered: 05/03/13
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Quote:
Spanishfly said: Let´s not get sidetracked into weed - there are lots of economic and other reasons people use lights for that all year.
All I can say to the OP as far as his cacti are concerned is do what the professionals do - the nurseries all over Europe who grow cacti for profit.
Put them in a greenhouse or frame (doesn´t have to be expensive)and give them as much natural light as possible - a Google will show you that even a cloudy day is as good as any artificial light - it appears that those who want to shout loudest cannot back their comments up with any real data. Keep them frost free with a small paraffin heater. Keep them dry and let them rest and mature the soft growth of last summer.
That is the advice I have from all of the many renowned growers and expert authors of publications on cactus cultivation that I have acquired over the years - the Lambs, the Maces, Pilbeam, Anderson et al, dating from 1961. All UK based as it happens, and people who DEFINITELY know what they are talking about. That is what I did when I grew in Scotland - and I NEVER suffered from any etiolation.
I have nothing further to add to this thread.
You've got a tiger by the tail Spanishfly 
I have actually tested out all kinds of conditions with a light meter and grown a fair number of plants, but since my first hand experience doesn't count for anything and some guy's book from 1961 does, lets ask google.
Metal halide maps developed in the 60s, HPS did not come onto the marker until 1964(wiki). Technology has advanced greatly since then.
Wiki: 1,000 - 2,000 lux Typical overcast day, midday
http://www.weedfarmer.com/cannabis/lighting_guide.php: 400W MH covering 1 square meter: 40000lux Light intensity needed for optimal cannabis growth 25,000-50,000 lux.
So even a 400w MH is 20-40 times as strong as light on a cloudy day, at mid-day.
Conclusion: modern lamps (post 1961) are without a doubt much stronger than outdoor light
Thanks google.
Edited by invitro (11/13/15 05:59 AM)
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