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InvisibleAIRDOG
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Germinating different species under same parameters?
    #22497570 - 11/08/15 07:38 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Hi!!! how are you recently i recieved some cacti seeds
list of species:
aztekium ritteri
aztekium valdezii
aztekium hintonii
loph williamsii and diffussa
trich peruvianus and bridgesii

I wonder if i can use the same parameters and substrate to germinate all of these? and how about the care after seedling stages please

thank you very much!


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OfflineP.Zappatecorum
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Re: Germinating different species under same parameters? [Re: AIRDOG] * 2
    #22498066 - 11/08/15 09:22 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Alright, so first off where the fuck did you get A. valdezii?  I guess you're in Mexico so you have the hookups.  My understanding was there there are no legal seeds on the market and anything you see is probably poached.  At any rate, please do those seeds justice and grow them out as best as you can, and when your plants flower and give you more seed, send me some.  :lol: 

So yeah, don't sow all of those species in the same container, but you can basically treat them very similarly.  Aztekium are the hardest genus I've ever worked with, I'm going to give you a detailed Aztekium specific response to your question, although all of the other species you have will like this treatment, though you'll be able to remove the humidity tents much sooner with the lophs and trichos.   

Keep in mind that aztekium seedlings are microscopic and because of that, you need to keep humidity high and stable for at least a year.  I have killed several batches of aztekium while dialing in my tek but this round they are a few months old and doing great, getting a lot larger, growing their normal slow growth rate but staying green and plump and healthy. My others all got eaten by algae or dried out from humidity fluctuations.  I'm going to tell you how to avoid that. 

First off, I start with about a mix of roughly 30% horticultural sand, 20% pumice, 15% pea sized lava, 15% pea gravel, and 20% coco coir (hydrate before mixing).  I also add some gypsum and lime.  You don't have to do this exact mix, but you absolutely must have at least 20% coco coir for the humidity retention, the pumice is a good idea and the clean, non caking river sand is a must for seeds that small so they don't fall down the cracks.  Aztekium hintonii grow out of straight up solid gypsum in the wild so I think the gypsum is also a must for the aztekiums. 

Now, you can't just throw this shit together and call it a day.  You need to mix it, hydrate it so that it is moist but not dripping (RR would call it field capacity), then put it in mason jars, cover them in foil and pasteurize them in a pot of water on the stove by raising the temp to 160-180 degrees  F for an hour (don't let the temps get any higher).  If you don't know how to pasteurize you can find a tek or let me know and I'll find you a tek or a video.  I'm assuming you know how to do a proper pasteurization. 

Aztekium really need pasteurized soil, because mold or algae is enough to kill them whereas other seedlings can deal with some peroxide for the mold or drying out to stop the algae, but aztekium will just eat shit and die if the slightest thing goes wrong.  Microwave tek is bullshit and plants that rare, expensive and delicate need to be treated with kid gloves.   

So now you have pasteurized seedling mix, I take my seeds, put them on a paper towel and pour peroxide over them to kill any mold spores on the seed coating.  Load a 3" or 4" plastic pot (new and clean!) to the very top with your soil mix, then sow the seeds with some sterilized tweezers.  They like to be sown pretty close together, the seeds tend to create a microclimate that helps each other stabilize and germinate better.  Now cover your pot with a plastic sandwich baggie for a humidity tent, seal it off with rubber bands. 

I use a seedling mat set at about 75-80 degrees under a T5 Flouro and it works well.  You've probably got nice enough weather where you're at to set them in a sunny window.  At any rate, you want warm temps that don't go below 70 at night, and it's better if there's a slight cool off in the evening and a day/night cycle with the lights.  Once they germinate, watch the color and make sure they're a happy bright green, if they turn reddish or brown put a paper towel over them to protect them from burning. 

Now, you have a sterile, humid environment that is ideal for your aztekium seedlings.  Leave them alone for a year and don't ever remove the humidity tent.  If you did it right, you will have no algae, no mold, just perfect happy plants growing the slowest you've ever seen a fucking plant grow. 

If you notice they seem to be getting dry, take sterile distilled water or boiled tap water and bottom water the pots without removing the humidity dome and exposing them to air.  You might want to do this monthly or bi monthly. 

Anyway, if you wait a bit before you sow I'm doing a huge sowing of 21 different species this week and am going to be writing a tek about it and am going to post pictures.  You happened to ask right as I was in the planning stages, so you got a detailed response. 

Best of luck and I am super jealous of those valdezii, I hope you get a bunch going strong and graft a few so you can get those seeds out to the community pronto. 
:woot:


Edited by P.Zappatecorum (11/08/15 09:34 PM)


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Invisiblespaceman101
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Re: Germinating different species under same parameters? [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
    #22498301 - 11/08/15 10:14 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

There's a company that bought the rights to sale the seeds legally but I can't remember who it is.

Mostly or LSoares could probably pop in and explain a lil more.


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Check out my Pollen Trade thread for spreading Good genetics far and wide :grin:

Great Vendors thread where we can discuss "Non Shroomery" Vendors that sell good products worth checking into :stoned:

A few things I wanna get my hands on check it out and let me know if you have any of these:grin:


Need help getting started growing mushrooms
              Here's The Noob Forum


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OfflineP.Zappatecorum
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Re: Germinating different species under same parameters? [Re: spaceman101]
    #22498719 - 11/09/15 12:14 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

spaceman101 said:
There's a company that bought the rights to sale the seeds legally but I can't remember who it is.

Mostly or LSoares could probably pop in and explain a lil more.



Nice.  That's good to know.  I figured somebody would eventually get a legal channel to get them out to the community slowly and responsibly.  Honestly, their future is safer in our hands than out in a tiny habitat that takes up a few acres of desert that are rapidly being threatened by development and climate change. 
:singletear:


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OfflineLSoares
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Re: Germinating different species under same parameters? [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
    #22498967 - 11/09/15 03:19 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Errr... actually, the story is a lot less pretty (as far as I know, but learned from trustworthy sources).

Aztekium valdezii was found, studies and described in the way botanists (and science in general) do it. Because it was anticipated that the species would stirr a lot of interest from the cacti collectors' community, a plan was devised: the location of the original population would be kept a secret and some plants were taken to be grown and propagated. These would form the stock from which the market would be responsibly supplied, and this program would be funded by the Mexican government and held in place by the university where the guys responsible for the discovery and description work.

This was a GOOD plan. The description of the species was published and types (dried specimen plants that will form the basis of studies on the species from now on) were deposited in a herbarium, just as the protocol calls for. Plant were being reproduced as planned and everything was going smoothly.

Now comes the muddy part of story: allegedly, eastern european cacti dealers bribed one of the herbarium employees into telling them where exactly the location for the original population was, went there, poached some plants, brought them back to europe and started propagating them en masse. Seeds and plants showed for sale not long after that at astronomical prices (hundreds of euros for 10 seeds, something like that). The guy responsible for the mexican propagation program was furious when he learned about this and shut down the entire program without sending out a single seed or plant, and distribution of the species passed on to the [mostly] czech dealers. Prices for seeds and plants have been dropping steadily and I could have bought grafted plants for 15€ on this year's ELK (I didn't. I'm cheap and 15€ is money, and besides I feel uncomfortable with the whole story).

Now for the legal part of the problem: the original sin was smuggling the plants or seeds out of Mexico, something that is STRICTLY forbidden. After that only CITES applies, and as long as the nurseries attest that the plant material was produced in cultivation, it is legal to be bought and sold internationally.

(and besides, within the EU CITES does not apply)


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.


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OfflineP.Zappatecorum
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Re: Germinating different species under same parameters? [Re: LSoares]
    #22499671 - 11/09/15 09:52 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

That sucks man, it's as I thought at first.  It's kind of stupid that the Mexicans canned the program.  They could have still given the patient collectors a chance to buy legitimate seeds instead of supporting poaching bastards.  I've recently read that the Aztekium hintonii, Geohintonia mexicana and Astrophytum caput-medusae seeds that are on the market are all descended from poached plants. 

Morally, once the cat is out of the bag, what do you do?  They'll be poached no matter what, and the more people that grow them, the safer the species is from total extinction.  So I guess just buy your valdezii seeds and spread them out to as many growers as you can for the sake of the plants.  I'll wait until they're more common and the price drops, I can't justify paying a whole bunch of money directly to poaching assholes, even if the plants are 1st or 2nd generation cultivated.  I'd prefer to be distanced from that kind of activity any many steps as possible.
:notcoolman:

Airdog, sorry to derail your thread, I still want to see your grow and I'm not criticizing you, I know a lot of people don't know about the politics of cactus collection and assume that if a European vendor has it the seeds should be legit.  I ain't judging and I wish you good luck with your grow. 
:raisemyglass:


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OfflineLSoares
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Re: Germinating different species under same parameters? [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
    #22499726 - 11/09/15 10:09 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

P.Zappatecorum said:
That sucks man, it's as I thought at first.  It's kind of stupid that the Mexicans canned the program.  They could have still given the patient collectors a chance to buy legitimate seeds instead of supporting poaching bastards.  I've recently read that the Aztekium hintonii, Geohintonia mexicana and Astrophytum caput-medusae seeds that are on the market are all descended from poached plants. 

Morally, once the cat is out of the bag, what do you do?  They'll be poached no matter what, and the more people that grow them, the safer the species is from total extinction.  So I guess just buy your valdezii seeds and spread them out to as many growers as you can for the sake of the plants.  I'll wait until they're more common and the price drops, I can't justify paying a whole bunch of money directly to poaching assholes, even if the plants are 1st or 2nd generation cultivated.  I'd prefer to be distanced from that kind of activity any many steps as possible.
:notcoolman:

Airdog, sorry to derail your thread, I still want to see your grow and I'm not criticizing you, I know a lot of people don't know about the politics of cactus collection and assume that if a European vendor has it the seeds should be legit.  I ain't judging and I wish you good luck with your grow. 
:raisemyglass:



Well, most plants in cultivation discovered in the last 20 or 30 years in the biggest hot-spots for plant diversity (Mexico and South-Africa, for example) are probably descendant from poached plants or seeds, as there are laws in place preventing the collection and export of indigenous species. The big sounding and appetizing names stand out a lot more, but there are a lot of other species in the same boat.
The problem is a BIG disparity in the income level of locals, plant dealers and plant collectors, making poaching a very lucrative activity for the intermediates. There are no easy solutions to this, and for every proposal there's an exception that makes it worthless. I say, as long as you know you are purchasing cultivated material, go for it if you must. The faster plants become common in cultivation, the less chance there is that natural populations will be preyed upon by unscrupulous collectors.

AIRDOG, by no means I suggested or implied that you are doing something wrong. Please accept my sincerest appologies if my post came out as a criticism to your actions, it wasn't intended as such and I do not feel that way.


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.


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OfflineP.Zappatecorum
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Registered: 10/15/12
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Re: Germinating different species under same parameters? [Re: LSoares]
    #22499843 - 11/09/15 10:47 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LSoares said:
Well, most plants in cultivation discovered in the last 20 or 30 years in the biggest hot-spots for plant diversity (Mexico and South-Africa, for example) are probably descendant from poached plants or seeds, as there are laws in place preventing the collection and export of indigenous species. The big sounding and appetizing names stand out a lot more, but there are a lot of other species in the same boat.
The problem is a BIG disparity in the income level of locals, plant dealers and plant collectors, making poaching a very lucrative activity for the intermediates. There are no easy solutions to this, and for every proposal there's an exception that makes it worthless. I say, as long as you know you are purchasing cultivated material, go for it if you must. The faster plants become common in cultivation, the less chance there is that natural populations will be preyed upon by unscrupulous collectors.




Yeah, I was thinking the same thing- discocactus, turbinicarpus, the more obscure lophophora, pretty much anything that is threatened in the wild was if not poached, at least legally collected to near extinction before the laws were put in place.  It is a depressing realization to ponder that our hobby and passion has largely been made possible by the habitat destruction and near extinction of the plants we claim to love.  I suppose the best we can do is only buy cultivated plants, keep them widespread in cultivation to discourage poaching and hope that eventually someone might start a program to reintroduce these species into the wild. :shrug:


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Invisiblemodern.shaman
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Re: Germinating different species under same parameters? [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
    #22501592 - 11/09/15 05:37 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I've had trouble keeping aztekium on own roots longer than 1 year old. I tend to graft them very early in life as they tend to die off in my care.

You can use the same soil and perimeters for all those cacti however use a mineral mix with no organic. You can use a more organic soil mix with trichocereus and lopho does ok in it.


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