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OfflinePsychedelicSwede
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MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions]
    #22484512 - 11/06/15 05:43 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Hi! I have a few questions regarding MDMA. I´ve rolled three times and I really enjoy this drug :smile: however I´m aware of the risks and try to space out my rolls with at least 2-3 months in between just to get my serotonin levels back to normal. I always take vitamin c, magnesium and fish oil before and after my rolls. So far I´ve never had a come down from MDMA.

1. How neurotoxic is MDMA? Is there any evidence regarding irreversible brain damage in humans? Do axons regrow?

2. Has anyone here got any permanent damage from their mdma-use? I read online some abusers of mdma never come back to normal, however I´ve met a guy who ate this stuff like candy and he seemed pretty normal to me. According to himself he´s doing fine now. I understand this drug should be used with respect like any other drug. Especially since serotonin is a such important chemical in our body! :tongue2:


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InvisibleLove2Love
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: PsychedelicSwede]
    #22492951 - 11/07/15 08:47 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

There is no conclusive evidence in either direction, and it is unlikely that we will know for sure until human studies are done, due to the difference between animal (rat) brains and people's, and the way they interact with MDMA.

However, there is some evidence.

There was a study done with rats which showed that after receiving a high dose of MDMA, rats were shown to have brain damage in all the areas of the brain that MDMA effects. However, this was only at a temperature of 79-86F. At a lower temperature, there was no damage at all. In fact, no study has ever indicated that MDMA causes brain damage at room temperature.

This is because the danger of MDMA to the brain comes from the fact that the brain becomes increasingly inefficient at clearing free radicals from itself at higher temperatures. MDMA exacerbates this.

This is why anti-oxidants are suggested when taking MDMA. I suggest taking R-ALA and magnesium glycinate, fish oil is good, but not as important. All others are unnecessary.

But the main thing to remember is to watch your body temperature. It is extremely unlikely that MDMA will be harmful if you are not in a hot environment.

There are 4 things to do when rolling.

1. Non-hot environment
2. R-ALA and magnesium glycinate (a couple strong doses of each)
3. Hydrate
4. Replenish electrolytes


No one has been shown to have brain damage from MDMA. In fact, there was a study where they surveyed MDMA ONLY users, and they did not find any negative effects, no matter how much they used. From surveys it also seems that any negative effects get better with time, so they are not permanent.

A thing to consider is how impure "molly" is. People who say they have been eating it and having negative effects could very well be taking a multitude of other drugs and cuts.

Use a reagent test kit -- ALWAYS.


Personally, I do not worry about my (tested) MDMA use affecting me. I find it loses its value if used to often -- much, much moreso than psychedelics -- so I would not overuse it, which is the only real danger (other than HEAT).

So follow the four tips I outlined and don't do it too often, and don't take ridiculous doses, and you will be just fine.

**Two more things to remember: it is dangerous to get into a hot tub on MDMA/MDA and it is dangerous to drink alcohol as well. Don't do it!


Edited by Love2Love (11/07/15 08:49 PM)


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OfflineBlack_Sunset
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: Love2Love]
    #22493646 - 11/08/15 12:03 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

There was a study done where they gave some primate doses over 3 days (binge). They showed recession of neural dendrites. a few years later they had regrown bu not to the same extent.


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OfflinePsychedelicSwede
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: Black_Sunset]
    #22493797 - 11/08/15 01:01 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Very good info! Thanks! :smile:


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Offlinehalo
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: PsychedelicSwede]
    #22502832 - 11/09/15 09:57 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I can vouch for it being very neurotoxic at higher doses.

Obviously there's no way to know for sure with modern brain imaging technologies. For the record, I have not yet had an MRI or PET scan but on other forums members who have had those report that their doctors can't tell there's anything wrong but that they also mention the technology really isn't sophisticated enough to see what's wrong yet.

In other words, if you have a stroke and can't talk or lose complete control of your limbs etc. modern medical imaging can probably detect abnormalities in the brain.

So basically if you damage yourself with MDMA, like I have, there is no known way to "fix" it. Basically all other drugs, from meth to heroin to cocaine and severe alcohol abuse...if you stop taking the drug and just be sober for a while your brain will reset itself. Based on my research this is not the case with MDMA induced neurotoxicity.

How did I fuck myself up with MDMA? I pretty much broke every rule in the book. First, I took 100mg of MDA 3 nights before my MDMA usage. (note, when I purchased the MDMA I was not in my right mind...the night before I had a horrific LSD trip and thought that taking MDMA would bring my mood up, I completely forgot about the MDA a few nights prior).

So I bought a gram of mdma for a good price. It was crystal, idk if it was pure, but it wasn't a powder or a pill. For the record I'm not super experienced with MDMA. I did "ecstasy" for the first time when I was 17 and in high school. That experience was profound and I truly understood the empathetic qualities of the drug. I remember that conversation flowed effortlessly. Truly beautiful. I would do it a few times a year over the next few years, never did a lot of it, and by that time half of what I did probably wasn't mdma.

I normally never did a lot of it, I have read erowid, I knew the dangers of doing it too much or too frequently. I never did it more than once every few months at the most.

Anyway, here's what happened to me. So I did MDA on a Wednesday stayed up late got like 4 hours of sleep. Slept the next night. Friday night I went to a concert with friends and took some LSD, proceeded to have the most horrible trip of my life. I don't want to get into the details but I felt fundamentally changed for the negative. Didn't sleep a wink that night or the next day. I started to feel better though, mentally, and my friend offered to sell me a gram of molly. Stupidly I bought it, I thought that taking mdma would help pull me out of the negative mindset I was in.

We get to the concert venue. I proceed to drink a lot of liquor in the parking lot. I normally never even drink that much liquor, but I didn't care. I thought that getting drunk would help to drown out the negative thoughts of the trip. Anyway we go into the venue, I'm on the floor with my friends. I proceed to open my bag of molly, break a chunk off (it was one big crystal) and put it in my mouth. I speculate that this chunk was between 50-100mg, it really didn't seem like much of the crystal. Then I started to feel good, and turned to my friend told her I was going to take acid too (I think..at this point, I subconsciously just wanted to someone to tell me no, I truly don't know why I behaved the way I did), she was like whatever. So I took some of that.

That's where things get fuzzy. All I remember is taking some more MDMA at one point, but it made me throw up immediately so I gave the rest to my friend. I'm unsure of how much I actually took. My friend claims that half of the crystal was gone. So, I potentially took up to 500mg. All the while I was so out of it I didn't drink any water that I remember and I kept dancing the whole night.

I barely remember anything from the concert, but I got so disoriented that I lost my friends and my phone died so I had to take a cab back to the hotel. I finally got back to the hotel a couple hours after the show ended. I drank water and beer to try to calm myself down. Nothing I could do would help me sleep. I laid in bed for hours trying to sleep but nothing worked.

The following day I said I was going to take it easy...but I ended up getting royally drunk again. I lost all self-control and I don't know why really. Regardless, I did not take any drugs. I thought getting drunk would help me sleep. It did not.

The following day we drove home, and I couldn't sleep on the car ride, nor could I sleep that night when I got home, I was psychotic. At this point, I thought that all of my reactions were a result of the bad LSD trip. I completely forgot or disregarded the mdma.

I did not sleep until on the 5th day my friend gave me a bunch of xanax. I slept for 8-12 hours.

Since then I have had a litany of symptoms. Here they are in no particular order:

1. Extreme Insomnia. 3-4 hours of sleep per night. Perhaps 5 hours if I take a sleep aid. So far, ambien has not really worked, neither has melatonin or any supplement or homeopathic sleep aid. Currently taking 50mg seroquel which sort of helps.

2. Zero sex drive. Looking at women or pornography does nothing for me. I do have a girl who likes me still for some reason, and we've had sex...but it's truly awful. I can't get as hard as normal and can't even really last 30 seconds. Orgasm doesn't feel as good. In addition, any type of morning wood I get is not that hard compared to before this incident.

3. Complete anhedonia. Literally nothing brings me pleasure, at all. I can laugh at certain things, my humor sensor still works, but aside from that it's impossible for me to feel happy. No amount of people telling me they love me or care about me seems to help. And I truly have lots of support.

4. Taste and smell is different. Food does not taste as good, at all. I have failed to recognize certain smells, such as tuna, that were previously very identifiable.

5. Appetite is awful. I have basially no appetite, it seems like my body is incapable of signalling to my brain to make me feel "hungry" whatever that is. I will hear and feel my stomach growl, and thus know that I should eat, but I don't ever really feel "hungry". If I do, I feel maybe 10% of the hunger I used to feel.

6. Digestion not functioning right. I'm having digestion problems, similar to appetite problems. Often I will not really know when I have to go to the bathroom. If I drink a lot of water, I know I'll have to pee, but I won't feel the urge as strongly. Also my piss stream is weak as possible. For pooping, it is also hard for me to tell when to poop, also not processing food as well. I used to be a 2 poops a day person. Now I poop maybe once every other day, and it is usually not a large poop and of lesser quality than previous poops. Sometimes I will realize I have to poop, but again, I never feel that urgency like before.

7. Coordination difficulties. I feel more uncoordinated (which is saying something cause I've always been awful at spors etc,). When driving, I now drive slower without thinking about it. Previously I was always a fast driver, usually 5mph or 10mph on the highway above the speed limit. Now I find myself going under the speed limit without worrying about it. I have to make a conscious effort if I want to drive fast now where as previously it was second nature.

8. No motivation or drive at all. I am extremely unmotivated to do anything. Bathing, eating, paying bills, everything is an extreme chore I really have to think about and put lots of effort into doing. I realize this may just be a symptom of depression, but I've never experienced anything like this before (and that's coming from someone who considers himself kind of lazy anyways).

9. Reduced cognition. (Example, when typing I just spelled cognition as "cognitition" ). I have more memory problems, I feel like I barely remember anything aside from what I had memorized (hard memory I guess). Also it's hard for me to think abstractly or to visualize things. I used to hate my job for how easy it was, I felt myself getting dumber at work because it was so mindless. Now, I struggle to properly do tasks that were so effortless they bored me to death beforehand. It's not a good struggle though, it just makes me depressed. Also I am misspelling words now, I used to never misspell words except for exercise and banana. Now I misspell words all the time.

10. Music no longer sounds good to me. I suspect this one may be more psychological, but it still scares me. Music doesn't pump me up anymore. I have no desire to listen to it. Songs and bands that I used to love (Grateful Dead and Phish for example) barely elicit a response in me. Some other songs sound downright demonic, and others...it's like I'm hearing all the bad parts of the songs. Very hard to explain.

11. I have constant headaches. I have not had one day in the past two months I haven't had random pains all around my head. When I don't actively have a specific headache, I have this feeling of constant pressure in my head, as if my brain is swollen or something.

12. Teeth grinding. To be fair I was mildly grinding my teeth before this incident. Two weeks before I took the molly, I went to the dentist for the first time in 2 years (I know...). They noted that it appeared I had been grinding my teeth a bit but nothing too bad. About a month after getting back from this trip...my teeth grinding had gotten so bad that I apparently have mini cavities in numerous teeth. They showed me the pictures to prove it..Prior to this I had never had a cavity in my entire life. Sometimes I catch myself grinding my teeth when I should be yawning...

13. This is more anecdotal and I'm not sure, but it seems my hair, nails, and skin have gotten a lot worse. Although it's possible this symptom is just related to the stress that the other symptoms have caused me. My hair is falling out, every time I shower I lose about a fistful of hair. This happened to me once last year during a high stress period but has otherwise not happened to me. Also my nails seem to be growing faster and are curling in on themselves more. May just be my perception. Skin is definitely worse though, I have a huge  subaceous pimple on my nose and I haven't had any pimples on my face, not big ones anyway, in at least 4 or 5 years (I'm 24).


That's about it I think.

A lot of people want to write off my symptoms as the result of being very depressed or having high anxiety after the trip. I pray they are right, but truthfully that isn't how it feels. I felt very anxious the first month after this, but that went away. Although I do generally feel more anxious than normal. Also yes I am depressed but that is mainly because of all these symptoms and regret over my choices rather than a cause of them all IMO.

I pray that these effects are not permanent, but it has already been over 2 months and they have not improved.

I have found users on other forums who have had symptoms persisting for well over 6 months. Some users even report having these symptoms for over a year or two. One person I saw on another forum had been experiencing some of these symptoms for 6 years. That was on the longecity forum which is mainly an anti-aging forum.

Truthfully, I do think if you are safe and careful that you will probably avoid what happened to me. Most of the people I've talked to with very bad symptoms took a lot of molly one night with lots of alcohol. Or they were serial abusers who did molly every weekend or more often for months or years on end.

I think this was my downfall. Being someone who didn't do molly a lot, and who hadn't read up on it in years, I thought the only danger was from repeated frequent use. Since I didn't do it hardly ever, I thought I was okay. WRONG!

I'm not going to tell you not to use it. But consider this. Any other drug that has lasting negative effects...those will clear up within a few weeks of the person no longer using that drug. This is not the case with MDMA.

Look at the above precautions. Don't drink alcohol, drink water but not too much, don't dance too much and overheat, take these vitamins before and after... Obviously that is good advice. But if a drug is safe...should you have to do all that? You don't need to take shitloads of vitamins if you take lsd or mushrooms, or even cocaine, heroin, or meth for that matter. But with MDMA numerous precautions must be taken to make sure you are being safe.

IMO I don't think anyone needs to take mdma more than a couple times in their life. It is the truest case of "when you get the message, hang up the phone".

And I don't want to be a party pooper, telling other people not to do drugs just cause I couldn't handle my shit. But honestly, even if you think you're being responsible. It's not worth the risk. I would not wish this on my worst enemy. IMO not even hitler would have deserved to feel how I feel now. I think about suicide every day because of this. The only thing keeping me going is my loved ones and the idea that one day I may recover.

If I knew for fact that I would not recover I would probably kill myself very quickly. Be extremely careful if you are going to use MDMA.


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InvisibleLove2Love
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: halo]
    #22503201 - 11/10/15 12:26 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Halo, honestly your experience can tell us absolutely nothing about the safety profile of MDMA. Blaming your current health problems on MDMA is unfair, and is potentially robbing the people you tell them to of fantastically healing experiences that they could have with the substance if they listen to you.

You do not even know that you took MDMA, so how could you attribute it to it? You took two other substances in the night that caused all this, including alcohol, which is known to be far more brain damaging than MDMA. How can you say this? Please (and I really politely mean please) do not go around telling people that MDMA ruined your life. It is simply not true and MDMA does not need any more false rumor to be spread about it. It's got plenty. People need unbiased information that they can make their own decision off of.

As for MDMA being harmful because there are precautions. These are in place because, based on our current understanding of the human brain and MDMA, there are the specific potential health issues I outlined in my last post. The precautions address them. Just because there are precautions for MDMA and not for meth or heroin (which if you look you will see that there actually are precautions for) does not mean that MDMA is less safe. We just know that these precautions reduce the risk.

I tell people to follow the precautions because you want people to be safe, but honestly, I do not think there is potential for much harm even if you do not follow them (within reason).

Realistically, to get damage as extreme as you say you got from a single experience, you would have had to have been hospitalized. Otherwise, it would take a whole hell of a lot of drug (over)use to cause it (if it would happen at all). Additionally, it really does all sound psychological.

I hope you find your way back to a happy life.





**Oh, and in response to you saying that there is no way to fix it: the study that surveyed MDMA-only users found that any negative effects that people attributed to MDMA diminished with time, suggesting that you can heal damage.


Edited by Love2Love (11/10/15 12:28 AM)


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Offlinehalo
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: Love2Love]
    #22505072 - 11/10/15 01:23 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well I'm not an MDMA only user and it is known that combining alcohol with MDMA leads to a greater chance of neurotoxicity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21040238

Check out that study. Basically indicates that in rats the combination or alcohol plus mdma causes severe memory problems.

I don't mean to shit all over mdma. I know that used properly it can be fine. But people truly need to be aware of the negatives.

If I had just gotten drunk. Even if I had gotten drunk and taken acid or any other drug I would have been fine.

I'm not saying that it can't be used responsibly. It can. But the dangers from irresponsible use are , in my opinion, greater than that of any other drug except in cases where people die from overdose. That's the only thing that could have happened that's worse than what happened to me.

And I don't know for sure if it was the mdma. But I've had other weekends of using lsd and drinking and staying up very late and never had the extreme negative effects like after this weekend.

Tbh I thought I worse I would be out of it for a few days. I did not expect to be utterly destroyed months after the incident. I feel like a completely different person in a worse way. I'm suicidal on a daily basis and before this I never EVER would have considered that an option no matter how depressed I was.

The OP asked for cases of neurotoxicity and granted I do think mine is due to the combination of mdma plus alcohol plus overheating. However I don't think that means it is irrelevant to his question.


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InvisibleLove2Love
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: halo]
    #22506601 - 11/10/15 06:59 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

There's no doubt about bad effects from mixing alcohol and MDMA. I agree it's relevent. I'm mostly just asking you not to walk around and tell people "MDMA permanently fucked me up."

And quite honestly, you list a wide array of problems, all of which seem they effects of depression, not overuse of the drugs you took, with the exception of the memory problems.

If you need any help with depression, feel free to PM me. I have helped a few people through it. The first step is always eating right and exercising, then work hard at things you are passionate about.


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Offlinehalo
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: Love2Love]
    #22506710 - 11/10/15 07:31 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I mean that's the fucked part, there's definitely a lot of underlying psychology involved as well.

Tbh I was depressed before this happened, but I've dealt with being depressed or sad about things. That whole weekend felt like I crossed a threshold from depressed to severe mental illness. And really, that was just the 1st night after the acid.

The mdma the second night I think it was what sealed it for me.

I haven't been passionate about anything for a long time, I'm such a fuck up of a human being. I do have passions, but after working for 8 hours a day, on 3-4 hours of sleep, I don't feel I have the energy to work out very hard or try to practice an instrument or whatever.

For the record I don't doubt that I'm depressed, but I do seriously doubt that the mdma + alcohol had no effect on me. My brain is not functioning right. I've been a hypochondriac about things before, but this time feels like the real deal. I've never had drug effects 2 months after doing something and not doing any other drugs.

This shit is fucked, and your right, I don't know it was pure mdma. I assume it was because it was from a trusted friend and it was a brownish crystal but who the fuck knows really.

I don't want to make this thread about me, and whether all this is permanent I do not know. I pray it is not, but it's been over 2 months so far. I thought I was feeling a little bit better today, but it's so hard to know if I'm feeling better or if I'm just getting used to this "new normal"...


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Offlineweshroom
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: halo]
    #22507662 - 11/11/15 12:23 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

There is a really good debate transcribed in the Breaking Convention book, essays on psychedelic consciousness. It features relevant scientists in the field and covers a lot of the literature/studies available on the subject. From the Breaking Convention conference in the UK. 

The book is a great read and like 4 or 5$ on ebay.. The essay might be available online too.

Overall, I feel like if it is pure mdma it should be relatively safe if used in moderation.

You could always follow this supplement regiment
https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/15m9sf/mdma_supplementation/


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: Black_Sunset]
    #22507876 - 11/11/15 02:30 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Black_Sunset said:
There was a study done where they gave some primate doses over 3 days (binge). They showed recession of neural dendrites. a few years later they had regrown bu not to the same extent.




I think that was the article in Nature around 2001 or 2002 that pissed me off to no end :V

The authors of the paper were forced to recant their findings since it turned out they were giving the primates methamphetamine instead of MDMA :rolleyes:

This stuff is controlled and you need to keep logs of everything very carefully...

How the hell do you mess THAT one up o.O?

"Yeah, sorry that wasn't logged. That was from my personal stash."

Not to mention the costs involved in primate research. Our tax dollars at work <3

IMO - physical pathology? Probably not from the MDMA itself but maybe indirectly, i.e. from heatstroke which can cause brain damage, tripping over candy bracelets, flashing lights, etc :V

It is well known it causes neuroreceptor downregulation and all that.


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Edited by micro (11/11/15 02:38 AM)


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Offlinehalo
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: micro]
    #22511178 - 11/11/15 07:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, that's one of the main problems I'm encountering. Not a lot of good studies where we can really judge the extent of the damage.

Here are some studies I found just today which are recent and examine Serotonin damage from MDMA:

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v38/n1/full/npp2012178a.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22147810


There's not a lot of studies out there and in many of the older studies the methodology is flawed (such as the primate study which used meth instead of mdma).

Unfortunately it's very hard to study. Ideally with animals you would just pump them full of the drug until they have brain damage so you know what the amounts are etc. Also one of the main ways they measure brain damage in animals, esepecially rats, is by killing them or waiting until they die and then dissecting their brains and examining them under a microscope. As you can imagine, that would be quite unethical to do to people so there's not a lot of information there.

The studies I linked mainly use fMRI and other brain imaging technologies.

I agree that things are inconclusive, but I truly do not believe this drug is very safe. Perhaps in small quantities, but knowing what I know now, I would probably never do more than 50-75mg at the very most. It's just not worth risking your brain's health.

I don't think there's any "opennness of heart" or whatever that cannot also be experienced on LSD or mushrooms.


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OfflineRebelutionsssss
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: halo]
    #22511246 - 11/11/15 08:03 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

If used safely I believe MDMA is pretty safe substance. As long as you keep your rolls to only a few times a year, take proper vitamins before and after(I like to use 5-htp and a multivitamin), stay hydrated, and KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TAKING.

I've been using MDMA for almost a decade and I can say I never experienced any of the symptoms halo has mentioned. I would have to say that I've taken MDMA almost 100-150 times with little negative side effects except for the lack of serotonin the few days after.

As long as you're not taking grams every weekend you shouldn't notice any lasting sides effects. Again we need more research so I'm just posting my personal experiences


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Offlinehalo
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: Rebelutionsssss]
    #22512943 - 11/12/15 08:31 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

And yeah I would've said the same as rebelutions prior to what happened to me.

Used safely, this drug is fine. The problem, and what tells you that it is a dangerous substance, is all of the precautions you have to take to make sure you're using it safely (5htp, water, being able to cool yourself down, using only once every 3 months at maximum etc) should tell you that it's not that safe.

No other drug requires so many precautions in order to use it safely.

Again, used safely it is fine. But we live in a world where, one, a lot of younger people won't have this information. And two, the chance that even if you do have this information, like I did, you may find yourself in a disoriented or inebriated state in which you forget some of this information.

That's what happened to me. I take full responsibility, but at the same time, so many people say if you aren't using it frequently you should be fine. There is not as much discussion regarding the amount of damage you can do from a one time high dose.

Used responsibly mdma is probably okay.

Used irresponsibly it could very well destroy your life.

I pray that I'll get back to normal soon and I'll be able to come back to this thread and let everyone know but it's already been 2 months and I'm still dealing with after effects.


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OfflineRebelutionsssss
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: halo]
    #22512969 - 11/12/15 08:35 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well if you throw all caution out the window then pretty much anything can kill you. You just have to practice safe drug use, if you don't you can die off of any substance you decide to use.


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Offlinehalo
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: Rebelutionsssss]
    #22514240 - 11/12/15 02:21 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rebelutionsssss said:
Well if you throw all caution out the window then pretty much anything can kill you. You just have to practice safe drug use, if you don't you can die off of any substance you decide to use.




Not true necessarily. Cannabis and psyhedelics are fine and you can't physically OD on them.

Also most other drugs will make you very uncomfortable before negative effects set in.

To be clear, I almost blame alcohol more for what happened than anything else. Had I not been drunk, I probably would have only done a small amount of the gram and waited to see how it felt. Also the combination of alcohol with mdma only increased the chances of neurotoxicity.

But had I done cocaine or heroin or meth I probably would not be experiencing what I am now. Arguably on other drugs I would've passed out became sick long before I could ingest enough to kill myself.

With mdma apparently that wasn't the case. Although on the last dip I did I got sick and threw up, I was so intoxicated prior to that I don't know how much I did otherwise.

I just haven't heard of such serious problems resulting from one time use with any other drugs. Pretty much anything else Will only cause serious damage if you do it so much as to be an addict. And even then, in most cases abstinence will allow the brain to return to normal.

Mdma is an exception in this case and should be treated as such. Again, I think it has lots of therapeutic potential and can be used responsibility but the penalties for misuse are potentially more extreme than any other drug.

Honestly the only thing that would have been worse would be death. I would take any other negative drug reaction over what I've been dealing with for the past two months.


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: halo]
    #22516445 - 11/13/15 12:21 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

halo said:
Here are some studies I found just today which are recent and examine Serotonin damage from MDMA:

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v38/n1/full/npp2012178a.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22147810




I'm not a huge fan of those studies and I'll explain why.

They both seem to say the same thing but the first article is talking about actual neuronal pathology in the beginning, they cite two very general articles about serotonin signaling which is no surprise and the only findings are the brain doing what it is supposed to do. Same with the second one. They mention loss of axons and I was like "wtf?" and kept reading and the only thing they studied was the prevalence of receptors. Lack of receptors does not signify axon loss. If anything it signifies neuroreceptor downregulation which *is expected* in anyone taking a drug frequently that stimulates those receptors.

I'm honestly not sure what to make out of that :\

Quote:

halo said:
There's not a lot of studies out there and in many of the older studies the methodology is flawed (such as the primate study which used meth instead of mdma).




Haha, yeah I still don't understand how that could realistically occur >.<

I doubt too many researchers are very interested in this anymore and I doubt anyone wants to throw grant money at it when they can't reasonably expect to find something new. Like you said later on -- it's most likely safe albeit in proper amounts and in the right set and setting. Again, people *can* get overheated and stuff which really *can* cause brain damage.

If you look at this realistically though, it is a drug that is similar to other drugs in structure that activates receptors like many drugs do. Yes, this will cause changes in the amount of serotonin and when stopped this will eventually reverse itself. It is a pretty big leap of logic though to assume it has pathological effects on brain tissue, especially when nobody even has a reason why that would be the case other than "it's an illegal drug."


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Offlinehalo
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: micro]
    #22518248 - 11/13/15 02:01 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Here's another article which is a comprehensive review of many studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931692/

Basically they conclude that used recreationally it can be neurotoxic and even toxic to other bodily organs.

I don't doubt this at all

Also I'll link it later when I find it but there was another study in which it was discovered that teens who used ecstasy were at greater risk of suicide than teens who used all other drugs.

Of course though if you don't want to believe that, it will be easy to extrapolate any small flaw in a study to discredit the whole thing. You mention receptor downregulation instead of just axonal loss.

At the end of the day what difference does it make. Either I lost axons or my receptors are permanently downregulated either way it is absolutely awful.

The science is not out on this substance at all. I would advise people to stop using it or if you must only do it a few times. Even if there's only a 1 in a million chance of what happened to me happening to someone else it's not worth it.

It is the closest thing to hell on earth I can imagine aside from losing your family members to War and violence. Everything good about my life is gone. Even though the good things are still there, I am unable to appreciate them as such. It's like being at a great feast and being unable to eat or enjoy the taste of the food.


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: halo]
    #22518558 - 11/13/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Nice! I'll have to read that.

Receptor downregulation is not permanent like actual neuron death would likely be.

That's why it matters and I wanted to differentiate the two and have no idea why they didn't in the article.

This stuff is common knowledge.

I still think it's unlikely but maybe there is something in that article. I'll have to see.


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Offlinehalo
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Re: MDMA neurotoxicity/brain damage [questions] [Re: micro]
    #22532790 - 11/16/15 01:36 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I don't want to argue back and forth but there are users on this site and others who have had long lasting negative effects from either chronic mdma use or from one time high dose use (like my case).

I don't know if effects are permanent but when people are experiencing the negative effects over a year or two after last usage I think it is fair to say there is some type of damage involved.

It just seems like everyone who likes mdma doesn't want to admit that, or thinks that everyone with negative effects is exaggerating or something. I wouldn't be making this much of an effort to post if I didn't think it wasn't worth it. This stuff if used improperly can destroy a normal life. It's not something to fuck around with at all.

I understand there are flaws with some of the research but that doesn't mean it's safe. It's one of the more risky drugs that one can do and users should proceed with extreme caution.


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