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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #2250353 - 01/18/04 11:40 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Amber: Also, to Frog. Determinism/fatalism type beliefs are downright silly.

If you had read for any length of time, you would have seen that I had posted several times that I don't believe in determinism/fatalism. I believe in free will. But when it comes to the planet Earth, I don't believe any one is going to do anything. I believe that earth is headed towards annihilation.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineFrog
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: Frog]
    #2250366 - 01/18/04 11:46 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

And to everyone else...

I am still figuring out how to be a lawyer. My brain can only focus on one thing at a time. I'm sure everyone has excuses for why they can't do something about the planet, but seriously, if I have to take time to get a movement started on this, I'll lose what I've started.

But tell ya what, if you guys really want to get something started, give me one task to do at a time. I can handle doing one thing at a time, as long as I don't have to plan the big picture.

I think it would be fun. Maybe there should be a new forum started for "Heal the Earth" or "Earth Day" or something like that, where posts are made about what we can each do as individuals, such as boycott products, write letters, etc.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Invisiblechunder
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Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 966
Loc: The City
Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2250419 - 01/18/04 12:14 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

the problem isnt ignorance or motivation. the problem is people. and its not really a problem.

I think the problem is ignorant people.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: trendal]
    #2250450 - 01/18/04 12:26 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

So let me get this straight so that my feeble mind can grasp what you ar saying:

A decreasing population AND / OR increasing numbers of people are BOTH indicative of pending end? :rolleyes:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: Swami]
    #2250458 - 01/18/04 12:31 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Swami you don't feel we are doing damage to this planet?

Oh yeah and I believe many powerful people's solution to this issue is "Lets kill as many people as we can get away with"


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: Swami]
    #2250480 - 01/18/04 12:51 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
So let me get this straight so that my feeble mind can grasp what you ar saying:

A decreasing population AND / OR increasing numbers of people are BOTH indicative of pending end? :rolleyes:



It depends on the degree of increase or decrease and the repucussions of it.  If a population is decreasing to the point where they either have trouble finding mates and reproducing or are confined to a small area, then that is indicative of an impending end.  If, as in the case of humans, a population is increasing and consuming resources to the point that the environment is no longer able to sustain them, then that would also be indicative of an impending end, as they will eventually run out of resources.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: Strumpling]
    #2250568 - 01/18/04 01:46 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Do volcanoes damage the planet by killing off millions of life-forms and poisoning the atmosphere?

What about large meteor and asteroid strikes and subsequent ice ages?

Do current-day tsunamis, earthquakes and hurricanes do damage to the planet?

Do lightning-caused forest fires do damage to the planet?

Depends on how you define damage, doesn't it?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: Swami]
    #2250634 - 01/18/04 02:08 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Do volcanoes damage the planet by killing off millions of life-forms and poisoning the atmosphere?



In the short term, yes. However, volcanic eruptions don't occur regularly enough to cause irreversible damage. Humans, however, are consuming resources far faster than nature can replace them.

Quote:

What about large meteor and asteroid strikes and subsequent ice ages?



Yes. Didn't those cause mass extinctions?

Quote:

Do current-day tsunamis, earthquakes and hurricanes do damage to the planet?



Yes, but as with the volcanoes, they are infrequent enough that the planet is able to recover from them.

Quote:

Do lightning-caused forest fires do damage to the planet?



See above.

Quote:

Depends on how you define damage, doesn't it?



It depends on the time-frame you're talking about.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2250790 - 01/18/04 03:07 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I am in full agreement with PHARMAKOS. We are currently in the "autumn of civilization" and it's getting frosty out there. If we continue to sit on our asses saying that action is pointless for any number of reasons we're just spewing intellectual vomit to rationalize and justify our own complicity with atrocity.

It is a fact that our destructive civilization is compartively young in regards to our species, and even younger in regards to life on this planet as a whole. When considering this how can anyone believe that humans are simply destructive by design? We lived for thousands upon thousands of years without raping the planet, and all the sudden we take up the habit and pretend its natural?

I don't know about the rest of you but my first priority for this lifetime is to do whatever I possibly can to buffer the crash we're inevitably heading towards, not for the sake of the human race but for all the other species we're going to take down with us. Our civilzation is irredeemable but I'd like to believe humans themselves can remember how to live sustainably as a concientious part of an ecosystem rather than a dominator. Either way our population must seriously decrease. If we just keep plodding along the same path we'll be the cause of our own destruction, but perhaps if some of us work to protect wild areas and restore ecosystems right now there will be something left after we've crashed. Not for whatever humans remain, but for it's own sake. For life's sake.

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Invisiblekaiowas
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: Swami]
    #2250958 - 01/18/04 05:04 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

" decreasing population AND / OR increasing numbers of people are BOTH indicative of pending end?"

perspective swami.

decrease of population could show that the end is near because one could say, "hey, if the population is decreasing, then maybe nature is de-selecting us"

or a person could say "hey, a decrease in population definately shows that the human race will survive because we won't be over-populating the planet, thus we might have enough food for everyone."

you can definately think of your own reasons for why and increase could mean the end, or even the beginning. I think it's about how the person thinks when shown evidence.

that's why one must be wary of statistic...but that's another idea right there


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: Swami]
    #2251337 - 01/18/04 08:24 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Well I know your mind isn't feeble, so lets not play games here, eh? :wink:

Rapid population growth without a rapid growth of living area and support chain (food, ect) will result in an eventual rapid population decline. I doubt I need to explain why to you.

And I was not talking about indications at all! If you want to talk about them...then fine. Yes, both increasing AND decreasing population can be signs of impending collapse - but not without the addition of other signs. You can't just look at a population and say "oh, it's numbers are decreasing/increasing so that means it is about to die off". That's silly.

However if you see a population rapidly increasing along side a lack of natural resources this can be indicative of pending collapse.

There is never just ONE sign.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2251658 - 01/18/04 11:06 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I am in full agreement with PHARMAKOS. We are currently in the "autumn of civilization" and it's getting frosty out there. If we continue to sit on our asses saying that action is pointless for any number of reasons we're just spewing intellectual vomit to rationalize and justify our own complicity with atrocity.




YES!!!
WELL SAID
:thumbup: :smile:


--------------------

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: trendal]
    #2251692 - 01/18/04 11:21 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

However if you see a population rapidly increasing along side a lack of natural resources this can be indicative of pending collapse.

A population rebalancing does NOT even remotely indicate "the end". It happens ALL THE TIME with most all species. They expand as rapidly as possible, then normalize.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: Swami]
    #2252143 - 01/19/04 05:28 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I never said it indicated "the end" :wink:

The word I used was "collapse"...two entirely different things when you are talking about Life.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Registered: 09/13/02
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: trendal]
    #2252471 - 01/19/04 10:35 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

"a massive increase followed by a normalizing" lol yes swami exactly!

the human population explosion has been MASSIVE and almost incomprehensibly fast. What is the 'normalizing' going to look like than, if the (historically speaking) normal population for the human race is less that 1/30th of the current one? it means that if that population is going to be returned to a normal level, than about 29/30 people are going to die. And that is a population collapse. THe factors that have allowed us to expand so rapidly will change (run out) , and the present human way of life will be destroyed. Its not that difficult a concept swami, i think your arguing for the sake of argument

were not nescessarily talking about extinction, but more likely a return to a primitive, tribal humanity, forget industrialization , were talking about returning to pre-agrarian humanity here.

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OfflineFrog
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2252486 - 01/19/04 10:40 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I remember someone posted a link to a site about some guy who said he was from the future, and his responses to people's questions sounded pretty good.

He said that that is what the future is like, after major war and major change. That we will be living as if in tribal settlements rather than in big cities. People will have to put in a request to move to a new settlement, and show their value, or the resume, as it were, to be judged whether they would be a good addition to society.

Anyone remember the link?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: Frog]
    #2252614 - 01/19/04 11:57 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

haha that dude doesnt know shit about the future :tongue:

how the hell is he gonna know about the future if he's livin in the present, influencing how the future turns out? 

maybe he knows about one possible future.

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OfflineFrog
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2252646 - 01/19/04 12:11 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Well, supposedly he couldn't do anything that would cause future events to change. He couldn't even tell people about certain things that were going to happen, so that they couldn't do anything to change the future. He had only come back, in time, to pick up some computer that was obsolete in the future. Something like that.

Someone will eventually come along and give us his name, or maybe I will go back through the threads, later, and see if I can find it.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Offlinefungulus
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2253493 - 01/19/04 04:44 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

The earth is in no danger from us.

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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: ahem. shall we try to save the world? [Re: fungulus]
    #2253659 - 01/19/04 05:44 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

this isnt about 'earth' the massive rotating ball or rock

it is about earth, the solitary sanctuary of life in a massive empty cosmos, vibrant, diverse abundant, and populated with humans AND nature.

this is the earth that is in danger from us

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